James Hurlock (Fitura Brands Founder & CEO) on Scaling Padel and Pilates Franchises

There are so many franchise brands out there, so many operators that unfortunately just the industry leave a lot to be desired. And the analogy building it as you're flying, building the plane as you're flying is just so frequently used within franchising as a whole. It gives everybody a bad name. And even now there are brands out there today that are building this plane as they're trying to fly it. We've built this plane, we've put in every possible layer of infrastructure we can in the most sustainable way. And only now, 12 months later, are we actually going out to franchise? And for me, that's the correct way of doing it. It's the slower way of doing it, it's the more expensive way of doing it, absolutely. But I hope for any potential franchisees that are looking at systems or opportunities that really resonates with them that we're not looking for hockey stick growth.

All right, here we go. James Hurlach, welcome to the future of fitness, man.

Thanks, Eric. Great to be here and a huge fan of the show. And you've had some some amazing uh individuals through in the past. I really feel uh quite honored to uh to have the uh the invitation extended. So appreciate it.

Yeah, man, it's uh it's an absolute pleasure. And you know, you're doing some things that are um, you know, I'm generally curious about some of a your background, some of the things you've worked on. You know, it's not as I was saying prior, like a lot of these aren't like the well-grooved past within our industry, like the HL HVLP or like you know, a lot of the boutique strength that we're seeing, but you're you're doing unique stuff and um your background's really cool too. I mean, you came from professional rugby, right? If I'm getting this right, I'll let you tell your own story. But spent some good time at F-45, uh Pickler. So this isn't your first rodeo, but what you're doing at Fatura brands, and correct me if I'm saying that incorrectly, but it's interesting, like the particular mix of offerings that you put together are very unique, at least from what I've seen. So we're gonna dive into all that. But yeah, man, um, I'd love to hear about your background. How'd you go from you know professional rugby to uh to where you are now? Great, great question.

It's it's not an easy one because I'm a rather uh sort of complicated character. You could say uh born in the UK, spent a lot of my life growing up there. My my parents lived in the south of France for for many, many years and obviously enjoy spending time in Europe, relocated to Australia when I was uh about 18, spent 17 years there, met my met my wife who who's actually Canadian. So um, yeah, we've got four kids, I think 18 passports between us, a fairly multi- multicultural, multinational bunch. Um, but being been here in the US for the last five years, currently residing in uh Park City, Utah. And yeah, just just love being here in the US. Yeah, I'd like to think I bring all of that uh sort of you know variety and mix of my my background and cultures and you know things I've I've been passionate about throughout those years into the new business, which is is for ture and uh yeah, having a lot of fun with it so far.

Yeah, that's great, man. So would you say is your accent dominantly Australian or British?

I'd I'd honestly let you probably decide that one. I I generally get 85% of people saying Australian, 15% saying British. Uh yeah. I mean, I whatever I'm called, I never take offense to it because it is just such a such a small board. And my kids are continuously get asked what the kids sound like, and honestly, it's hard to it's really hard to put your thumb on it now because they have they have traveled so much. I think we've done uh we actually moved house about two weeks ago, and uh my wife uh reminded me that it's the fifth house move we've done in five years, three of which have been uh been international. So it's uh yeah, they're well traveled also.

Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say a little bit of South African, but I'm not very good at this stuff. So anyway. So yeah, man, so you played where did you play professional rugby? Was it in the UK?

Yeah, so I I grew up in the UK and played um played you know rugby all my life. My my dad was my first ever coach at Barry St. Edmunds Rugby Club at under six minis. I played every sport I could get my hands on. I was I was always academic, but uh for me sport was always uh always a release. So whether it was track and field, tennis, field hockey, you know, anything and everything, but really found my passion in rugby union, went through Northampton Saints Academy and then uh played for London Saracens at a top flight international or or you know European side, um, and also Captain England School Boys in 18 and 19s. So yeah, had a wonderful ride there, met a lot of really great people and some great friends, which are still my best friends to today outside of rugby union. And but uh as my wife would say, I got a little bit older, a little bit greyer, a little bit more podgy, and it became a bit rough and decided to move into to other avenues.

Yeah, that's a tough sport. That's a tough sport to do for a long time. I mean, how's your body at this point?

I mean, I I stopped playing, you know, early compared to a lot of people, and I still wake up with backache and shoulder ache. I I disced my shoulder three times, I think. I discated my knee once, chipped off a little something in my back and you know, pretty bad ankle, broke my nose here. So I like to think I got off pretty lightly compared to some, but you know, I'm 40-something years old now, and yeah, still still feel it, but don't regret it for a second. Again, some of the best memories, best friends, best people I've ever met through that that uh sort of upbringing of rugby union and just sport as a whole. So uh yeah, I I now coach actually uh my my son, my my older son, he's 11 years of age, and I coach him at uh football, American football, uh here in Park City. And although I often sure like I don't know what I'm talking about, uh on some days I do my best and and generally work with the boys in the uh offensive and defensive line, which is more sort of contact contact oriented and try to do my best to uh to help them.

That's great. That's cool, man. Okay, so you how did you get into the industry? Like you you worked at, was it four years with F-45? So And you know, uh I've known the F-45 team for many years, and I've always felt that they're some of the most innovative people in fitness, like pre-pandemic when they were growing like crazy, right? It was like 60 franchises of a month growth. But they're still always had this sense of innovation in what they were doing. You know, I'm sure you know Luke and he would show me around all these different projects, and I was on their NDA. I'm like, oh, cool. And so you've been part of like that and and their evolution too, with FSA and um they're you know, that now they're the fit house of brands. So maybe walk us through like how did you get to F-45 and then what was it like working there? What was it, you know, some inspiration you maybe pulled into what you're doing now and at Pickler too?

Yeah, so I mean, to your point, been some some great entrepreneurs come out of the F-45 portfolio. I mean Mike Ramsey from from Strong Pilates, uh former F45 franchisee and have a wonderful offering, wonderful offering there at Strong. You've got the Yard Gym now, you know, absolutely crushing it, you know, amazing brand. And again, uh, you know, a lot of the uh you know, Dan Bover, X45 franchisee, and then uh Rob Deutsch, uh I believe now back into that that fold and uh yeah, obviously understanding you know a lot about you know kind of some of the mistakes that were made at F45 and you know, really using that to our advantage to build a sustainable platform. So sort of everything they're everything they're doing. But um for me, my journey, I actually knew Adam Gilchrist, so one of the co-founders with with Rob, I think uh Adam, another big uh rugby union fanatic, played at Australian School Boys and knew Adam through the the northern beaches of uh of Sydney for many years and you know had sort of uh various sort of uh you know correspondence at different times. And then Adam reached out one day and said, Hey, you know, love working with you and thinking you know you're obviously accomplished what you do and would love to would love to have you know join F-45. So yeah, I I was happy to join the team. At the time, F-45's main uh sort of book of business was out of the United States. So I took the position on the proviso that the family and I would relocate to to Elsegundo in California, uh, went across, found a found a family home, found a school for the children, and then quite literally that week COVID-19 broke out. I'd never forget it on the plane home. I sat next to a lady with a foot-on snorkel, like quite literally snorkel with a mouthpiece going up. And of course, this was the very beginning of COVID and no one quite knew what was uh was going on. So ended up back in Australia, unfortunately wasn't able to leave the country there for 12 months. And um at that time, F-45 was going through a potential acquisition and IPO and was looking to increase their addressable market. And at that point, I was given the um the opportunity to be the founding CEO of FS8, um, which was very, very exciting. And obviously it was a brand new foray for for F-45, which at the time was F-45, not the fit house of brands, and uh launched that business from from from virtually nothing, sold over a hundred locations, launched that into about seven countries internationally, and obviously still going very, very well for them, and um they're seeing you know pretty pretty large growth here in the US. So very proud of that accomplishment. And then after about 12 months in that brand, relocated back into F-45 as their chief partnerships officer and head of brand ambassadors um out of Florida uh here in the here in the US.

Yeah, very cool, man. And then so how did you get from there to Pickler, right? That was the next phase of your career. And and what is Pickler?

Yeah, yeah. So what is the Pickler? So uh I I left very shortly after the uh the IPO at F 45. And uh at the time my wife and I were actually in the process of building a log cabin over in Canada, which uh we've been sort of many years sort of uh thinking about it.

What part of Canada?

Newfoundland. Oh yeah, right on. Yeah, cool. Newfoundland, Canada, the the most northeasterly point of uh of North America. So um amazing place, very rural, you know, untouched, you know, beauty, you know, salmon salmon river, just five minutes up our street. So uh we'd love to love to get out to there. But uh yeah, we were building a log cabin and the the the basically the logs were up and nothing else. And uh my wife and I thought, hey, let's go and let's go and build this cabin. I'm fairly hands-on and uh and good with tools. So took about 12 months out and uh went and built this cabin. Quite literally everything from start to finish. We're carrying logs out of the forest and you know, building stringers for staircases and bunk beds and that's so cool. Yeah, a really, really big passion project. But when we um when we came out of that build, I was you know looking at you know other opportunities and what to get back into and really just stumbled across the uh the picker on on an advert on LinkedIn and had two or three other opportunities with very large organizations in the US. But uh I spoke to the uh the CEO at the time and um you know spent about two hours on the phone with him and just telling him all about pickleball. And quite honestly, I'd I'd never even played. And uh I thought like so many others that pickleball had been positioned really badly and was a bit of a laughing stock and sort of positioned as a game for uh you know for older, older uh sort of active aging uh you know individuals. And the more I looked into it, the more I learned about it, I was just absolutely blown away that there was a sport that at the time supposedly had, you know, 22 million Americans playing the game, nearly 17% of the adult population, depending on which statistic you read which day. Yet nobody had market share. There was no economies of scale, there was no brand equity, um, and no one really sort of owned that space. So I rang, I rang George on a Monday morning and said, absolutely, I'm in, let's do this. And uh yeah, relocated a family to to Utah. That's what brought me here and um was part of that founding team, took the position of the uh chief brand officer for three years. And um yeah, the pickler is North America's largest provider of premium indoor indoor pickleball. So beautiful for civil seas. They've got I think 70 odd locations across the US, one recently opened in in uh Japan, uh, one in Australia, New Zealand close to my heart about two weeks ago, and a couple in Canada. So yeah.

Yeah. You know, uh is pickleball still growing at the rate it was like three years ago? Because it was it was the talk of the town, right? It was like, oh, it's gonna take over the world. I just personally I tried it for the first time like two months ago, and I can I'm gonna have to say I've never lost a pickleball. Um but I've only played one game. And it was fun. It was fun. You know, it was really easy to kind of get the basics of it, right? Um the point scoring I thought was a little weird, but I guess you get used to it.

Um but yeah, I mean, what where do you think pickleball's at right now if you had a the pickleball has seen exponential growth, absolutely exponential growth over the last five years. And um, it's an American sport. You know, the US has really got behind it and for so many reasons. Easy to easy to learn and you know, low barriers to entry. And um for me, I think it's a great sport because it just gets people playing. For me, it doesn't matter what you're playing or where you're spending your money, whatever it may be commercially, just the more active human beings there are in this day and age, the better. So fair play to pickleball for everything that it's done for you know 20 plus million uh you know Americans playing the sport. It is, in my opinion, though, and you know, I think uh later statistics only a few days back from the uh SFIA show statistically that it has has slowed dramatically. So for the very first time, pickleball has been dethroned actually by by paddle, still increasing, but at 1.3%, and paddle actually 14 and a half percent. So uh for me, what's really exciting about Paddle is it's almost where pickleball was five, six, seven years ago. And Paddell, again, as we know, um, you know, founded out of Mexico decades ago, been around for for a long, long period of time, and we're already played now in over 130 countries internationally, the fastest growing racket sport internationally, and is now very quickly making its headway into the US. So for me, I feel like, you know, personally and and with you know, Fatura brands as a whole, it's it's just absolutely the right place at the right time and bringing all these lessons, all of these mistakes we've learned, you know, over the years from booting fitness through to you know big box to really bring that sort of round of expertise with a fantastic uh leadership team to help you know grow Fatura brands and you know the uh the modalities as such underneath that portfolio.

Yeah. Right on, man. Well, I'm glad we went all through that because I I think it's it's important to show that like you you know how to scale, right? You've seen this play out a few times. And I want to get now like into the the concepts that you're bringing, Martin. You mentioned is it Padel or is it Paddle or does it depend on who you ask?

Probably the most frequently asked question uh I get asked, along with where I come from and why do I sound so peculiar.

I've already covered I've already covered both in the first 14 minutes.

And I'll be honest, I I was still on the fence until I actually attended the World Paddle Summit in Barcelona a couple of months back, and I was speaking to a local there who uh screamed at me uh for calling it Padell and not Paddle. Um and at that point in terms I learned the hard way that it officially theoretically should be should be paddle. So there are still a lot of Americans and others, you know, calling it Padel, but uh I think in sort of testament to its uh its history and culture, it's it's it's paddle.

Well, it sounds more exotic if you say Padell, right? It sounds like we talk about yeah.

Yeah. I think that's why it was really to differentiate it from from from from other offerings or racket sports here in the US and to to make it sound a little bit more bougie. But uh again, it's like if you ask people where was Pickleball founded and what was the story of Pickable, and was it Mr. Pickle's the dog, or there's so many different stories, and you know well, as long as people are talking about it and and doing it in in good grace, then uh that's great.

Yeah. Well, it's fun. Both of them are fun to talk about. Uh okay, so give me the give me the concepts, man. You have three that you're starting with at Fatura brands, and uh, you know, maybe at the high level, tell us what they are, and and I really want to get into like your thought pattern. Like, how did you choose these out of all the modalities out there, right, that we have within this industry? Um, and I guess you know, this I don't even know if this is like typical like fitness industry or if you're kind of more in the health, wellness space now or community. I don't know. I don't you can describe it in your own words, but yeah. What are the concepts? Why did you pick them? And why did you and and what gives you the confidence that these things are going to scale out?

Yeah, absolutely great question. So I mean, first and foremost, we we've got the three brands. The first brand is core precinct. So core precinct is strength-based athletic reformer Pilates. There are a number of reformer uh options out there, you know, a lot of talk about reformer, and you know, what we're seeing at the moment, in my opinion, is this this controversy and this rift between classical reformer and you know, Legris or megaformer, and you know, what is what is right and and what is preferred. And obviously, different people enjoying different styles of of workouts, classical more around uh, you know, lineman and uh you know megaformer around you know, high intensity and you know, sweat-inducing. And what the way we've uh structured core precinct in a nutshell is is the best of both worlds. So we've spent the last 12 months working with one of the five largest manufacturer uh reformer, uh sorry, reformer Pilates manufacturers internationally to create uh a bespoke exclusive core reformer, which gives you all the benefits of both classical and mega forma at a reduced price point and at a smaller footprint, which clearly uh improves the economies of scales and AEVs within the studio. So that's something we're very, very passionate about. And obviously something through the you know, my time at the Fithouse of Brands or F 45 back then, you know, I I I understand the culture set and the the relationships and the you know the demographic going through that system. So for me, you know, along with the tailwinds that reform is seeing was uh an obvious, an obvious candidate to be under the uh the Futura portfolio. The second option is contrast theory. So contrast theory is obviously a play of words on contrast therapy, which is the the combination of infrared sauna, coal plunge, guided breath work, and guided protocols. So a lot of people are again talking about contrast therapy, huge tailwinds, huge growth. But 95% of people that I speak to don't actually understand why they're going to do contrast therapy. Besides, it's great for recovery or it feels nice, it sort of often falls often falls into that sort of wellness space. So people are seeing it as a nice to have, you know, once or twice a month and nothing more. So what we're doing with contrast theory is we're bringing this guided protocol into the studios, into private rooms, programmed by someone at future HQ, so that we're bringing um outcomes. People therefore know why they're going in, what they're trying to achieve, and actually how they're trying to achieve it. And obviously in 2026, as we talk about this outcome-based economy, everyone's looking for outcomes, everyone's looking to understand. And by building in this progression over this eight-week cycle and seeing progression over this period of time, we we believe we'll see a much higher utilization and much higher sort of ritual by going into these studios. So very, very excited about the contrast theory offering and through this uh this digital protocol, which no one else is offering at this uh this moment in time. And then the last offering is paddle sweat. So paddle sweat is uh unlike the other two, you know, the other two fall into a let's call it a two and a half thousand square foot, you know, piece of real estate highly uh available throughout the US. Paddle sweat is more like a big box. It's more like a, you know, the you know, uh it's it is big box. So it's 25,000 square feet, you know, give or take, a little bit here and there. So more like a modern day country club. And where we see the key differentiator here with paddle sweat compared to what some of our, you know, competitors, what other offerings are doing in this space, is we are a diversified portfolio. We're not just paddle courts in a warehouse hoping for the best, but we've got paddle courts in the back of house. And then we're bringing through core precinct, the reformer offering and contrast theory, the contrast offering in the front of house to expose the business to a wider demographic and to a wider subset and group of people to maximize real estate at every opportunity and also to drive incremental revenue through through through that offering.

Okay, awesome, man. Well, there's some threads to pull on there. So the first one uh you mentioned strength-based uh athletic. Say that again. Strength-based athletic, strength-based uh athletic reform of parties, right? Yeah. So what makes it athletic? Like how do you differentiate? Um, is it simply the people who are trying to is it the core demographic you're attracting and it's you know more like a supplement to what they do outside of those four walls? Or yeah, the the athletic one is is curious to me how you position that.

Yeah. So what we're trying to do is again, by creating this tailored reformer between classical and and say, you know, mega forma, is rather than just being rather than this just being traditional reformer, it's more a hybrid offering. So we're actually using the reformer as a performance platform. So a lot more movement on and off the machine, higher intensity movements, more cardio infused, and through the design of our reformer, which is fairly difficult to articulate over a uh over a webinar, but uh we've actually got the ability to add on a whole variety of movements off the front of the off the machine. Think of a cable machine, for example, and how many uh sort of movement standards you can do um, you know, traditionally on a cable machine. Now we're able to do that off the the actual reformer itself, um, which is really exciting because it makes it a complete body workout. Um and we obviously throughout our programming have uh um you know different days on on legs, core, upper body, you know, overall, hybrid, cardio infused, so that individuals are getting a different workout every single day, again through our digital programming and through the movement standards we uh we we've built. We've got a an incredible relationship with OneFit. Obviously, you know, the engine house between HyROX at this moment in time where our our our head of programming at a core precinct has over a thousand plus different movement standards. They can they can program for our studios you know ahead of time, making it easy for our operators at a uh a brick and brick and mortar level. But yeah, just just bringing a lot more dynamic movement and again blending the best of best of best of both worlds.

Yeah, that's interesting, man. So with you know that that shift to more of the athletic side and kind of traditional strength training is it is the thought that's gonna skew a little bit more male than than like the normal reformer Pilates, or it's a little too early to say, or what do you what do you feel is gonna happen?

Yeah, really great question. So we one of my previous brands without naming names, we we definitely try to move more into this male, this male market. We even brought in male brand ambassadors and you know, really trying to uh sort of move this uh this this thesis away from you know purely uh a female-led sport. And I think there are definitely more and more men understanding the benefits of of reforma Pilates. And you've got you know, professional sports players and NFL players now, you know, adopting Reforma Pilates because there's just so many wonderful benefits of that. But I think it would also be in the nicest possible way naive for us to think that we're gonna suddenly see a 50 50, you know, adoption of male and female. Of course. We're still seeing, and you know, there's other industry experts here, you'll you'll hear you know, speaking at conferences and you know, you know, talking about their demographic, and it's still To date, you know, 85, 90 percent female for you know, 25 to 40 in terms of age brackets. So I think that's more so the sort of demographic which we'd be uh we'd be looking at. Yeah, interesting.

And you mentioned like 2,000 or 3,000 square feet footprint, roughly.

Yeah. 2,000 square feet. So um you know, uh have the the ability for flexibility within the real estate. Something we've been very, very thoughtful about is how do we maximize real estate in the most efficient way so there's not wasted spaces. And of course, you want to create this really beautiful um you know design-led space that people feel part of. People are able to get that community and uh you know, it's a premium offering. But at the same time, in franchising and business, every single square inch needs to perform, it needs to produce revenue. So you know, we want to make sure that we're we're taking that into consideration and we're giving the best possible um you know utilization within that that main workout space and the most you know, the highest number of four highest number of reformers which go into that space while it's not at any point in time you know deviating or moving away from from quality and instructor to to individual ratios.

Do you have a guess? I mean, uh obviously you do a lot of research on the real estate side. That's what great uh franchises do, right? So they invest a lot into real estate selection. Real estate, real estate, real estate, right? Yeah, man. It's it's uh I was an idiot when I was starting my gyms. I was yeah, I had no idea what I was doing when I came into real estate, but that's another story. What what's uh what markets do you think this is gonna thrive in first? Is are you going for A markets? Are you going for like the you know Manhattan's and the LA's, or you think we're you're gonna go like yeah, what is what is your gut looking at here? What is the research telling you?

Yeah, I mean, uh for for me, there's there's definitely markets that we we have have in mind. And you know, I'd love to tell you something really exciting, like it's a market that you wouldn't expect, but these are you know, core tier one markets, um, you know, Florida, you know, New York, you know, California, you know, Texas, you know, there's great markets all around us with so much opportunity. But for me, real estate and you you you you you hit the nail on the head and you know, you say, you know, you were an idiot when you you picked your first location, but you're you're along with so many others that that move into the space or or aren't given the support at a at a at a franchise or level to make an informed decision. You're not you're not sticking the well, you shouldn't be sticking your finger in the air and uh and guessing about this sort of stuff. There's there's data, data, data, data. You know, what is the right data? You know, what is the right location supporting that? Uh, and you know, doing a test fit for for that specific space. A space that on paper may look great with you know TI allowances and price per square foot. When you actually do a test spin on it and you find out there's structural supports or or pillars which are right in the middle of the workout area or you know, reduce 25% of the uh potentially the occupancy uh sort of uh you know utilization of that space, then don't actually come back and look quite so good. So it's about having some of that experience that's done this before behind you to be able to say, yes, this is a great location and these are the reasons why and let's move forward with this, and then negotiating a you know a really strong commercial lease because so many people get burnt on these commercial leases and don't understand that this is a 10-year commitment. A lot of these are are personal guarantees on on this this commercial business that you know these commercial landlords are not going to simply just let you walk away from. So, I mean, whether someone's carrying through the Vatura brands portfolio or doing something themselves, just the advice I'd give is just you know, really be very uh you know sort of careful about the the real estate which you are uh entering into because you can change a lot of things with an operational business, but you can't undo a bad lease. It just it just doesn't work.

Yeah, well said, man. I had a crash course, an unfortunate crash course in TripleNet and what that meant and how that can uh yeah. Yeah, that that came with a lot of surprises, let's put it that way. And it was it was a tough one. But here we are. And then that so you're bringing in to I mean, contrast theory is pretty mainstream now. I think you could say like you know, Andrew Huberman's and everyone else has really brought the world of protocols right to the forefront. Everybody seems to be really on board with it. You know, I I sit in a little song that we have at our gym and it's like way more busy than it was five years ago, without a doubt. Right. And everybody's talking about what's your protocol, what's your protocol? You know, it's like it's it's really funny. But I think no one really knows to the point of what you're saying is no one really knows what they're doing. And they don't know why they're doing it. They just know that they heard it somewhere, they feel better. So when you look at like the digital offering combined with the in you know the the real life experience of what you guys are doing there, like what are the benefits of contrast theory? Like what would be a goal of someone to achieve in an eight-week stretch with with the uh with the services and products you guys are offering there?

Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, personally underlies with how far the market has come with contrast therapy because when I was with our European Union at a you know a healthy level, the idea of recovery back then was to get into a secondhand filthy garbage bin, which someone had wheeled out from the back, filled with ice, and you were told to sit in there for 10 minutes and anything less than 10 minutes, and uh, you know, you were soft and you know, you weren't doing your job properly, even though you know there's now benefits showing showing actually, hey, well, you know, over three minutes, arguably, there's not not many more benefits besides the potential risk of hypothermia, which I thought I caught on on numerous occasions, uh, sitting in that that dirty garbage bin. So for me, the more education about this, the the better. And you know, I think it's it's really interesting when you ask the question about like what is contrast therapy and and what does it mean to an individual? And if it really depends on what that individual, I think recovery in itself means so many different things to so many different people. And yeah, you know, there are professional athletes that are you know coming off the back of playing competitive sports games over the weekend and you know, looking for you know the traditional recovery benefits, but there's also resilience, there's stress relief, anxiety, you know, there's there's being the ability to regulate. We're seeing high, you know, uh, you know, high performing executives that are you know wanting to find a you know a way to de-stress and you know just have some time for themselves. So again, a lot of benefits. A lot of these are nothing new, they haven't been reinvented over the last 10 years. Some of these protocols have been around for you know hundreds, if not thousands of years. But I think just now there's more education around this and the the locations themselves are becoming more accessible. Previously, these locations just have not been accessible, even even now, if you look at the the number of contrast offerings in the US market. I think there's well, the the more orange theory franchisees in the US than there are contrast therapy offerings specifically, which just goes to show the demand versus the supply and where that sits currently in this uh this modern market.

Well, this has been a big question for a long time on this podcast instead of been covering it. It's like, why isn't contrast therapy, sauna culture, like all these things, why isn't it caught on the United States? And I feel like this in my career of covering this stuff is like this is the most traction it's had in our marketplace forever. Like when I travel, I love to go to like that's that's my thing. I love sauna concepts, right? I'll go to Homam and Uzbekistan, or we'll go to something really cool and upscale in Germany. Japan has its own, like it's all it's it's great. And you can see like these are ancient, ancient parts of their culture. I mean, here in the United States, we just seem to be like almost I don't know. I don't know what it is. Like I see it now though. I feel like it's finally got to the point where it's gained traction. I'm wondering if you if you feel the same way, obviously you do because you're betting on it. But you know, why why do you think it is like finally now it seems to be entering into like the zeitgeist of of the American culture?

I think it's I think it's accessibility. I think traditionally and for far too long, premium recovery has only been reserved for professional athletes with you know access to facilities or the financial resources for for recovery. I think that's first and foremost. I think the more recovery studios or contrast therapy studios that come online, the more accessibility there is, the easier it is for someone to get in and obviously be educated about the benefits of that. But I think education is also a really big part of this. And for far too long, recovery has been seen as an afterthought. It's been seen as a nice to have. And it's almost like the reward you get after you've done your training or your sport or your performance. Whereas people are now actually understanding that recovery is part of performance. If you don't recover, you can't perform at your best in life, in work, in sport, you know, again, whatever that means too in your walk of life. But I think that education is just a massive, massive part.

I think there's one other thing too, James, um, and I agree with you. I think it's the proliferation of wearable data. Like people now can see like how they're each how the recovering score, right? Like Garmin has its, you know, body battery and like all of these where if any kind of wearable is going to have something that tells you how your body's recovering. And I I take it all with a grain of salt because I've been following wearable data forever, right? It's something that I've been always really keen on. I've worked with different startups, but you know, there is if you once you start to see the trends, and especially in my age, you know, not that I'm super old, but I'll be 50. Like I have to really work in recovery now. It sucks. I can't just train six days away like I used to, like I want to. But you I think that's another part is people really start to see how things are affecting them. And they can run little mini experiments on themselves. Okay, well, if I cold plunge or sauna or do these things, do the contrast work, like I can actually see some benefit in the numbers, right? And I think that's part of part of it too. It's just everyone feels it's uh it's on people's minds, right?

And also that longevity, you know, longevity is absolutely having a huge moment at the moment. Yeah, huge moment right now. And uh, you know, a lot of people are looking at this, it's not about the years that you you have, it's about the quality of those years that you have. And as you are getting older and you want to run around after grandkids and you know, whatever it may be, like that longevity piece is just so, so critical. Even now I'm I'm in my 40s, but I wake up most morning, like I mentioned earlier, with a bad back and sore knees and sore shoulders and and stressed, you know, with with work and whatnot. It's I mean, you know, for me it's been a huge, huge win just being involved in the industry and doing contrast therapy, you know, more frequently than what I had done previously. Just, you know, I feel better for it. Absolutely.

So let's move on to the big one, man, like physically the big one, right? I think this is this is really exciting. So you said 20,000, 30,000 square feet, these are some big dogs. Tell me what what makes you bet on this one? I mean, we've seen I think you know, any kind of racket sport that's coming to the United States. When I was little, when I was growing up, you know, tennis clubs were the big thing, right? If you could get into a tennis club and you had a membership there, it's a big deal. Um tennis shop, I feel like it's still popular, but you know, kind of falling off a little bit. And then, you know, so obviously we talked about pickleball and that's that's booming, and now paddle seems to be the next big one. And I'm curious what the sweat stands for, too. Is that because it's more of a health club or or whatever it is? But walk me through like what is the experience going to look like at a paddle sweat?

Yeah. So the the paddle sweat SWT is specifically because we wanted to be known as more than just a paddle club. Um, there are a myriad of paddle clubs out there, but the vast majority of these, you know, 90%, are just simply paddle courts in uh in an industrial warehouse. And we wanted to, you know, let our consumers know that you know this is a multimodality offering, a holistic wellness uh experience. Um for me, paddle is such a superior game to pickleball. And I know that's not gonna be popular, and I know there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this that are pickleball fanatics, and you know, again, this is coming from a place of care that someone's just gonna be able to do that. Watch out for the pickleballers, man. Watch out for the pickleballers. But I felt grow the sport for you know for three plus years uh you know with with a pre uh you know a prior employer, so always a place in my heart for pickleball. But having played the two games, paddle for me is just such a more exciting experience. It's so much more athletic, more cardio, more moving around the court, um, you know, better community, better fun. And I think we're gonna see a lot of pickleball players that have come through the system, get to a certain point, and then are looking for that next challenge and looking for something new, moving across into paddle. We're already seeing it at a number of clubs. And I also think you're gonna get a lot of tennis players, um especially some of the you know, the older tennis players that are are now, you know, potentially struggling to cover the court and you know, the overhead serve that are looking for that more, you know, still athletic but you know community-oriented opportunity. So for me, paddle ball sits at that, sorry, for me, paddle sits at that intersection of the two. And I think there's just so much room for growth because of that. Again, the the paddle sweat offering itself, we didn't want to just be reliant on one concept. Paddle still has an area for growth, a lot of growth in the US, absolutely, but it still has a lot of room for growth. The latest reports show potentially one million US individuals playing the sport, which is fantastic, but we didn't want to hang our hats specifically on Paddle. So the great thing about the Paddle Sweat offering is we have these incremental revenue streams through the Athletic Reforma Pilates, through the contrast therapy offering. We've got a functional fitness space, so now you can come in and get your work out there. You no longer need your gym membership, and then this beautiful community space where you can socialize and connect with individuals, you know, after. So um hitting a lot of demographics, a lot of, you know, sort of options there for coming through with, you know, your partner as an example. If you imagine, you know, Eric, your wife, you know, may want to, you know, jump in the sauna as you're doing, you know, uh having a game of paddle, and then you know, you go and get a coffee after, or maybe you're playing paddle, your wife's doing reform of Pilates, and then you go and jump at the sauna together and then grab a cup of coffee. So I think we're gonna see uh a big, big win there with that that um sort of diversification under that same roof.

What's that, James? What are the fundamental differences between like tennis, racquetball, pickleball, and paddle? Like is the ball smaller? Is it the same rackets, court size?

Yeah, they're all racket sports, but very, very different. So tennis court first and foremost, much bigger space. So you need a big space as an operator to house uh tennis courts. And tennis is quite often played by singles. Not always, of course, but quite often played by singles. So um pickleboard, on the other hand, on the other extreme, you can get four pickleball courts into a tennis court, and pickleboard is more often played in doubles. So theoretically, where you may be capturing two memberships on a tennis court, you can capture up to 16 memberships in a pickleball facility. So a big, big win there, and a number of reasons certainly people have been excited about the commercials within pickleball facilities. Paddle is a similar size as a pickleball court, slightly bigger, but played within a glass enclosure. So definitely a higher cost of infrastructure than a pickleball court. So higher barriers to entry. So therefore, we're not seeing these paddle courts rolled out in every municipal and um, you know, across the country, which means you know, the the offering is is currently offered more so by by private entities at this moment in time. But that glass infrastructure also makes the game more athletic and more exciting. Traditionally in tennis or pickleball, once you've driven that ball behind your opponent, the point is over, the point is won. Whereas with paddle, it hits the glass wall behind you, then comes back into the field of play, and the point is only just getting going. So a lot of people refer to pickleball as checkers and paddle as chess, just because there are so many more different moving parts. The balls are also different. A pickleball is played with a wiffle ball and uh and a paddle, like a thin, smaller paddle. Whereas a paddle, without confusing things, is played with a ball that almost looks identical to a tennis ball. If if you didn't know it, you would think it's a tennis ball. It's just slightly smaller in size and slightly higher pressure. And the racket itself is slightly larger, made out of a different material and perforated holes through the middle. So, yeah, subtle differences, but you know, it's similar.

Yeah, interesting, yeah. Well, uh all of these, what I've noticed too is there's no cannibalized cannibalization across these, right? Like they're all complementary to each other. Like you can have, you know, the reformer work, you can have the contrast therapy, you can have the kind of club resort feel, right? Like recreational feel. I mean, is that intentional or did you just kind of look up one day and you're like, huh, these all these all go together really well? No, absolutely.

I uh I I'm not smart enough to just uh have them as uh as an accident they were absolutely intentional. A lot of thought went into them. But what we've got at Fatura is this beautiful flyerwheel where it's sport through paddle strength through reform Pilates in the functional fitness area, and then recovery through contrast theory. So you play a sport, you recover, you then go and do your strength-based activity, or you know, you you do your reformer offering, which obviously is great for injury prevention, which allows you to perform better on the paddle court. And then after the paddle court, you jump into the you know, the contrast theory offering, recover better, and then perform better on the paddle court. You know, whichever way you skin it, there's always that beautiful flyerwheel here. Yeah. And what's really exciting too about this is uh as a portfolio is that you know, we're gonna see a lot of efficiencies. We're gonna see um, you know, greater uh sorry, reduced cost of acquisition in securing that member, and then that transferable offering within that portfolio, and ideally a greater lifetime value out of that same member. Because I mean, we know right now, and Eric, I'm sure you're probably the same, like people have multiple memberships. People have a gym membership, they have a sauna membership, they maybe have a yoga membership or a reformer Pilates membership, and obviously class pass has been a, or you know, these aggregators have been a big part of that, that people getting to pick and choose, but having to travel from one to the other, and um, you know, what we're doing at Futura is bringing all of those under this beautiful, you know, sort of performance ecosystem, this this unified approach where uh a member can access all of them, you know, within the same same portfolio.

Yeah, smart. Yeah, one of the questions that I'm thinking about, like you you had seen a lot of success in the franchise world, right? You're literally building a cabin, like getting off the grid, and then you got brought back in. Like why? Like it seemed like you were, you know, why why would you I mean it's exciting, right, to build things, and I think it's almost addicting for many people, kind of including myself. But you know, what what made you go from like, hey, we've got the serene life of building a cabin up in you know the northwest region of Canada, right? Pristine country, to like taking a phone call and be like, you know what, I want to do it all over again. And then do it all all over again after that, too.

It's uh yeah. I mean, I I've got four children. If I if I wasn't afraid of hard work, I you know, I wouldn't have four kids. So it's uh, you know, I I love the challenge. I love the challenge. I love building things. But for me, what was really exciting about Futura was the opportunity to do it correctly. There are so many franchise brands out there, so many operators that, you know, unfortunately, just industry leave a lot to be desired. And the analogy building it as you're flying, or building the plane as you're flying, is just so frequently used within franchise, fright franchising as a whole, it's it gives everybody a bad name. And even now there are brands out there today that are are building this plane, you know, as they're as they're trying to take off, as they're trying to fly it. And unfortunately, the franchisee becomes often caught up in that process and the one that gets a lacklustre, yeah, lackluster service or gets burnt at the end of it. So everybody that that joined Fatura brands, we've got an incredible leadership team with over 70 years of franchisee experience. Everybody came, you know, including myself, came into this brand with frustrations or with lessons learned or an expertise in terms of how to do it better and challenging that standard and really wanting to improve that standard. So, you know, we went out, we raised capital, you know, 12 months back, we've built this plane, we've put in every possible layer of infrastructure we can in the most sustainable way. And only now, 12 months later, are we actually going out to franchise? And, you know, for me, that's the correct way of doing it. It's the slower way of doing it, it's the more expensive way of doing it, absolutely. But I hope for any potential franchisees that you know are looking at systems or opportunities that really resonates with them that, you know, we're not looking for hockey stick growth. We're not looking to bring on every you know possible operator we can and build this plane. The plane is already built, and now we're looking to roll this out in a really sustainable way, having learned from so many lessons over the last 15 to 20 years from the leadership team.

Yeah, well said, man. So yeah, give me that insight. So you're you're going out, you're selling franchises now. What does that look like over the next six months for you?

Yeah, so um we had our last Discovery Day in uh in Texas um last week, which went really well, had some you know, some great candidates came through that that system from all walks of life, from from fast food, from you know, large box, you know, planet fitness, boutique fitness, you know, which were coming through and you know, really excited about what we uh were putting forward. So we're having uh you know ongoing conversations with some of those candidates. And now we're moving towards our next discovery day, which is on the uh 13th and 14th of October in Miami. After Miami, we're gonna go to Scottsdale and then more than likely the Californian region. So really attacking this on sort of uh region by region, wanting to work with best in class operators uh within each of those geographical locations. Unfortunately, you know, it is a two-way process. We do have to have some tough conversations with, you know, operators which are coming through the system and just saying, look, you know, for various reasons, we don't think that this is right for for our sake and for for your sake also. But again, trying to do the right thing by by everybody and uh just really excited to to work with some of the talent we're seeing coming through the system and and get these first clubs off the uh off the ground.

Yeah, right on, man. I'm excited for you. So what do you uh what do you need help with right now, James? Are you looking to build your team? Obviously, you would love to have some people interested in your franchises. Yeah, as as an industry, how can we help you?

That's a very nice of you to ask, Aaron. I wish more people would ask. It's uh but no, we uh I mean right now for us, you know, we're just looking at at operators. Uh as I said, the the plane is built. We've got an exceptional uh team that uh, you know, that uh is is at the helm of our Futura brands right now and very, very happy with the talent which we've uh we've assembled to be able to roll this out. We're just looking for great operators, individuals that are you know looking for a team that's willing to support them, bend over backwards and make sure they're successful in in whatever they do in life and you know the future opportunities. So yeah, if anyone is currently exploring franchise opportunities, whether it be a single unit reformer offering or contrast therapy offering or potentially a bigger box offering like Paddle Sweat, where we're bringing them together, we'd obviously love to hear from from those individuals. You can reach out to me on LinkedIn or www.faturabrands.com. There's uh an opportunity there to register your interest. And yeah, we'd love to see as many people at this next uh Discovery Day in Miami on the 13th and 14th of October. And for for us, that's that's an opportunity to let everybody look under the hood. We've got nothing to hide. We're very proud of what we've uh we've assembled and we want as many people to come in and you know challenge us and and ask these tough questions and let us demonstrate to you why we're we're building this differently and uh yeah, see, see where the future takes us.

Yeah, it's really exciting, man. And then if uh if people want to get a hold of you specifically or or follow you somewhere, where would you like them like them to go?

Yeah, I mean the the the best the best probably the best avenue likely is uh is on LinkedIn. So I'm I'm fairly active on LinkedIn. It's just James Herlock, H-U-R-L-O-C-K. Reach out to me, connect, send me a send me a Dend me a DM or a message, and um yeah, I'd love to open up a line of dialogue and have a conversation and again, you know, introduce you to the uh Futura brands portfolio and and the wider team right on there.

Well, very exceeding I mean it's very novel concepts you got here. It's really exciting. I'm I'm I'm gonna be watching and seeing how this develops because I I I think it's really cool. I mean it's just cool. Like they're cool concepts, right? And I think that's you know, I don't know how to say it any better than that. And you have a mysterious accent. So, you know, there's there's that as well.

I just hope you put the uh I hope you've got the graphic overlay on the podcast here, and in case people can't understand what I'm uh I'm saying, and I I do speak quickly, so uh apologies. But uh yeah, it's just uh it's hard old habits die uh die slowly as they uh as they say. But uh no thanks, and we'd love to get you into a facility as soon as uh we get our first one open. It's that'd be great. It's amazing how many uh you know executives or partners or or vendors I've I've known over the 20 years that have been you know sending us messages on LinkedIn or or calling me or texting me and saying, hey, this is so awesome, and can't wait for you to open a facility and can't wait to see uh you know sort of what this facility looks like. And my my answer to them is the same and to you, we'd love to see you win one. And we can have the have the first game when we uh we get our doors open.

Excellent. Love it, man. Well, thank you for joining me, James. It's been an absolute pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. James Hurlach.

Thanks, Sarah.