Kelsey Ramsden: Mindcure & The Future of Psychedelics

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Please go subscribe, give us a favorable rating, and share this episode on social media or wherever you like to go chat with friends. I am your host, Eric Malzone, and once again, welcome to the future of fitness. Kelsey, welcome.

Thanks, Eric. It's great to be here.

Yeah, it's uh as I was telling you pre-recording, I'm I I get excited for all my guests and everyone who comes on the show, but yours, um, you know, the conversation we're about to have, I think is so fascinating and timely. I mean, I have so on this show and all the the fitness-related ones I've done in the past, I've always asked people, you know, what is what is the thing that uh excites you most about the fitness and health industry as far as like what kind of technology or what kind of thing, you know, and everyone has different answers, you know, wearables and um, you know, AI is always a common thing, right? Sometimes when people ask that question back to me, uh, my general answer is uh actually I think it's psychedelics. Um because it's it's uh huge potential. I'm not naive to them personally, uh, and I'm just generally fascinated with all the good that can come through it. And and there's this conversation that it comes about, you know, with people maybe I've talked to offline, and um you know, it kind of turns into these hush-hush conversations, which I think is so hopefully unnecessary soon. So anyway, I I'm fired up about this. I'm really excited to have you here. So let's let's do this, Kelsey. If you can get everyone listening, just what your background is and how you became the founder and CEO of uh of Mind Cure.

Yeah, sure. So happy to talk about psychedelics and also just want to, you know, welcome all the people who are listening who might be thinking, oh my gosh, psychedelics, like is this some crazy hippie stuff? Um, because you know, what we understand around psychedelia is really rooted in science. So if you came to this show and you're curious about scientifically backed understanding what we can do around our bodies and minds, stick around because we're not talking about, you know, staring at labelamps like what people can infer about psychedelics. But I'll drive into who I am and and and what I'm all about and how I came into the work. So I um my come-up was actually predominantly business focused. So I got my MBA, started civil construction and real estate businesses, scaled those up, was twice named Canada's top female entrepreneur, um, and did you know what good MBAs do, collected the gold coins and jumped the hoops and got to the mountaintop thinking I'd feel whole. And I got there and I just felt hollow. And so I started investigating all types of therapies and all types of ways to connect to my body and improve my health, you know, because I know that oftentimes our mind is not that um disconnected from our bodies. So started getting well, started getting fit, doing all the therapy, and still my my just brain wasn't coming online the way that I knew that it could. And so I started investigating psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, uh, that was about five years ago, and three years ago became a patient myself. And so I can speak from both this like patient perspective as well as from the business perspective and the and the research perspective. Um and so knowing what psychedelics was able to do for me and understanding what it's done for friends of mine and also understanding what the future of psychedelics looks like and this great potential we have to change how we really connect with ourselves and other people and improve our health. Uh, I call it mental wealth, so it's not just getting to subsistence, but developing our minds like muscles. Um, and I thought there's no better time for a capitalist like me to do something than right now in psychedelics where you can do well and do good in equal proportion. So that's what led me to founding monicure was just this like genera like germane interest. Um psychedelics helped me retire out of my former businesses and I didn't need to work anymore necessarily. Uh, but it it seemed like the worthy pursuit to come and lead a company in the psychedelics revolution and really develop something that's evidence-based and science fact, so people don't witness the advancement of psychedelics as something from the sixties, but really can recognize psychedelics as a form of medicine that can help us. So that's who I am and how I got here and and kind of my origin vent. Um and what Mike here does, I think is you know the next question.

Yeah.

And really what we do is we have we have two primary focal points. One is technology, so developing um digital therapeutics tool to help inform, by virtue of wearables, an AI-backed optimization tool for psychedelic therapy where the therapists can deploy the best therapies and the patients can get personalized care at scale that's quantified so that they're what we in this industry call integration, after you had your psychedelic therapeutic training or uh therapy experiences, can bring that back into your real world and make it stick. And then on the flip side, doing novel research with psychedelic medicines, and um we have a line of nootropics that are not psychedelic, so you're not going on any trips with them, but this idea of how do we help people support their mental health? Um, and so we have a line of organic nootropics to help them with that, minds made in chug and that kind of thing. So that's what mind cure does, that's what we're about.

Yeah, I I definitely want to dive a lot more into that as we kind of unfold this conversation, but I'm you know, I've I've uh Timothy Leary kind of brought a lot of this to the light back in the 60s, right? And then the research got stopped. I mean, I I also read um Michael Poland's book, uh How to Change Your Mind.

Change Your Mind, yes.

Uh really good for people who haven't read that one yet. And starting to understand, but what do you think is is is fueling this resurgence of research um and awareness of all the the great things and positive things that psychedelics have uh have to offer?

I mean, I think it's kind of three things. So one thing is like before we started taping this idea that when when something in our human atmosphere gets so problematic, we can't help but address it. Like we wait until the final dying moment when our world is on fire to be like, okay, now we'll have a look at that. And mental health in a in a multiplicity of its forms, whether it's depression, ADHD, PTSD, anxiety, um, has reached a real fever pitch where it's starting to affect our systems, whether they're our capitalist systems, our community systems, our home systems, our personal systems. So that's one aspect. Um, and then the second piece is opiate addiction, which is a tremendous issue for a tremendous number of people. And and then there is this kind of third issue, which is just our connection to self has really gone by the wayside, and and as a secondary result, we get a lot of other physical, physiological issues uh that show up for individuals. So, you know, why now? I think that's one piece. Lots of problems to be fixed. The second piece is, you know, and psychedelics people do not like to be compared or or aligned with this notion of like it's like the next cannabis, which I agree with, but thank heavens that cannabis went through because a lot of what we're doing in this space has uh an impact uh as a result of the cannabis people doing what they did in advance of us. Um so so there is a bit of that, and then the third piece is I think the people who are, you know, I'm gonna generalize our age, so you know, 35 plus, um, have a kind of we don't necessarily have that stigma of the 60s layered on us, of this whole like era of um drugs are bad, and you know, there's an absolution, and and if you're one of those people, you're not good. I think we're more open to this idea of, well, tell me what the science says, and based on that I'll make my own judgment because we kind of have a more modernist, uh, sovereign individual approach to our health, right? We decide for ourselves. And and I think it's the convergence of those three things that have allowed psychedelics an opportunity to take a moment to sign.

For those uh who are probably asking, what what goes into the category of psychedelics?

Great question. Well, there's a whole plethora of things. We can talk about the naturally occurring stuff. So most folks would know magic mushrooms. Uh, we call those, you know, that the active molecule of psilocybin, which is a derivative of psilocybin. We have LSD, um, we have ibigaine, which is a derivative or comes out of a plant from Africa called the Aboga plant. We have 5MEO DMT, which some people will know as toad venom. Uh we have uh MDMA. Um, you know, there's such a variety of psychedelic medicines, and they do different things and they have a different properties. So taking psilocybin is very different than uh secetamine or MDMA, etc. So the these different molecules have have, like I say, different properties and different things that people are using to research um them for. Uh but for the most part, the next question tends to be what's legal and what's illegal, because there's a lot of movement happening in this day. So yeah, and um which i is tremendous. So you know, I want to put a big asterisk around this for your listeners. Decriminalization is not the same thing as legalization. And I always want to make sure I say that before I get into this piece because some people go, oh, it's decriminalized. Great, I can go and buy some, you know, magic mushrooms, and if I got get caught, I'm gonna be okay. The difference is it just means that they're unlikely um to to enact charges or prosecute. Uh it doesn't necessarily make it legal. So we still have a ways to go. But in the states, in a number of um states of California, uh, Colorado, even in Florida, New York State, there's been a lot of movement on the psychedelics front, and most of those charges have been led by the very things that I was talking about before, these instances of depression and high suicidal suicide rates, opiate addiction, and psychedelics really proofing in the research to be a a good option for people to move forward with with respect to treatment.

Yeah, and it's it I look at uh when I when I like bringing back to when I started the conversation about why I think it's such a huge thing, because for fitness and health, the you gotta get your mind right. Like I don't see too many people who are depressed saying, yeah, okay, you know, making yes, with going into the gym or getting some exercise or talking to a health professional, would that make them feel better? 100%, most likely, right? But getting them there is really hard. And that's where getting you know the mind right is is is critical, and that's why it's a fundamental piece of like we can't help, you know, as a fitness professional, we can't help anybody who doesn't come to us, right? We can't uh they have to actively engage. So getting people to have a more active lifestyle, understanding um the fundamental piece, and you know, I I'm still not one hundred percent sure on what mind cure does, so maybe we can dive in that that some more. So if I'm yeah, if I'm Eric, right? Yeah, um how what can I what can I hope that mind cure could help me with?

I'll give you a today A tomorrow and in the bright future. Perfect. So today you can get nootropics. You could buy them from us. Again, we have clarity, focus, and immunity. We have three kind of varieties of nootropic formulations. They're all organic. And they are, again, non-psychedelic. So you're not going anywhere on any kind of psychedelic trip, but they are mushroom derivatives. Actually, they're grown in California and then processed and packaged up and come up to Canada and then shipped across the states. And I would say that, you know, for the a typical person, you know, I uh drank a fair amount of coffee. I know that's not a popular statement, but the truth is I still do. And um, but when I when I am not drinking coffee, and or even when I am and I'm looking for that, like just that little the the 10% or 15% acuity to focus or to to allow myself a little bit longer of a flow state. Um I started buying these kind of things. My grandma was into um, you know, Chinese medicine or naturopathic medicine when I was a kid in the 80s. And I kind of started down this path following her. Um, and so it wasn't uncommon for me to see these mushrooms and to understand what they did, but they only seem to be, you know, kind of coming up and coming out in major light over the last couple of years. So today we can help you with that. Um in the near future, we can help you by virtue of the fact that we are starting to conduct some interesting research. So there are some things because we're publicly traded company, there's some things I can and can't share. Uh, but I would say just, you know, stay tuned to what we're doing on the research side of things. We'll be looking for people to be a part of our research when we're advancing with psychedelics. And then in the in the distant future, you know, ideally we have centers of excellence where we're able to deploy our technology. Um, and some of our technology actually will be deployed into the states in some ketamine clinics in the coming year. Um and and and again, what that does is, you know, we're also used to you probably have a whoop band or a ring or a I don't know, insert thing here, Google watch monitoring every thing you do every moment um under the sun. And what we're looking at doing is developing what I call the quantified mind. So a way in which people can identify how their mind is functioning, help it perform at its best, and start optimizing, pardon me, at that individual level. Uh, because to your point, if your mind's not right, you know, oftentimes you don't get the best out of anything. And I I I think about even watching our children, like when I know one of them in air quotes wakes up on the wrong side of the bed, I'm like, today they're not gonna ace that math test that I know they're totally capable of. Because their head's just not in the game, you know? And and we're not dissimilar from that. And I think it's fascinating that we spent all this time and energy to quantify and optimize everything from the neck down without really giving enough weight to the connection between our mind and our body and how um pivotal it is for for full optimal performance. So that's what we're working on.

Is it uh, Kelsey, is it different difficult to do the research? I mean, from you know, uh legality standpoint, like do you how how do you guys navigate those waters of of doing this type of research?

Yeah, I mean, for some folks who've been in the game for a long time, and I mean the psychedelics game, so like maps, a multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies, led by a fellow named Rick Doblin, amazing collective of researchers and sciences who were scientists who were doing this research when it wasn't cool, you know, people who were um breaking all the waves for us, they they had to to fight a real uphill battle. As it stands today, in part because of the work that they did, and in part because some of the work that happened over in the UK, there's enough of a body of science that for us to advance our research, although it takes time, like I mean, it's scientific research, the uphill battle is not nearly as challenging. Um, people are open to the idea of psychedelics, but you know, all caps, but they are only open to the idea of psychedelics in a clinical setting. It seems when we're talking about this kind of research. Um and I think there's good reason for that, you know. Uh these are very powerful tools. And maybe some of us did them in college for a good time, but when we talk about psychedelic dosages to actually have material affects and long-term impact on these uh indications, depression, anxiety, PPSD, etc., we're not talking about a small dose of any of these medicines. We're talking about the kind of dose that you really need a wingman, you know, who's well trained and understands um the places and spaces we're getting into. Because the the experience of dissolving your ego and becoming potentially becoming one with the universe, you know, during these like extreme um what would I call them, non-ordinary states, is something different than what m what most people think. Uh, you know, the psychedelic experience is about. And uh and it takes it takes training and a deep understanding of the science in order to shepherd someone through that process.

That's uh that's a really key point. And I think you know, I want to talk, I want to talk about anecdotally because I have a good friend who's been in the fitness industry for a long time, very successful entrepreneur. I won't say his name because a lot of people know who he is. Um, but he, you know, about two years ago he called me and he was just really he was a mentor to me, and he calls me and he's very stressed out, he's very anxious, he's you know, the business isn't doing as well as he needed hope, they're they're not growing anymore, and he was just like he lacked confidence. Um he was anxious every day about it. And you know, we had a series of calls probably every month we would just chat, I would just check him and see how I was doing. And then one month it had been a while, we reconnected, and he sounded light, he sounded good. And I'm like, you know, hey man, I have to say, like, what is going on? And he said, Well, I got a guide and I did a um heroic uh dose of psilocybin and my whole viewpoint on life changed. And now he's doing what he wants to be doing. He's back to high-level coaching. Uh he's got a tattoo on his arm. I don't I don't know what that says, but um he was just shifted and it was such a drastic thing. And I asked him about his experience and you know the guide, I'm like, What are you nervous? He's like, Oh, I was he had never done any type of psychedelic before. And so anecdotally, that was such an amazing story to me, and I I hear that, and uh, you know, it just wants me to dive wants me to dive into it more. But there's also a lot of people who are probably listening, or people I know who I'm close to, who are very fearful, right, of what psychedelics may uncover in their psyche. Um, you know, the quote unquote bad trip, which I know happens, but what do you how do you quell people's fears when it comes to um you know experimenting or getting guidance with with uh the psychedelics?

Okay, so I'm gonna start with the public service announcement piece, which is uh, and I'm sorry if you just heard a dog. We got a puppy. Everybody needs a COVID puppy, uh. So my apologies. I can I can control the children and all the other things in the background, but not necessarily this new dog.

That's right. Puppies are welcome on the show.

Thank you. Uh yeah, the the PSA on this is again this idea of like being with someone who knows what they're doing, because I think a large part of our anxiety um stems from what's gonna happen once I'm in, so to speak. Like, who's gonna be there? Who's gonna help me? Am I gonna freak out? What happens if like all of this? So it in the same way that you know we have a designated driver to help us make our way home from the Christmas party, we should make sure that we have someone who knows what they're doing, who's our wingman in this process. And that can help to alleviate a lot of the in-session, you know, tension or or anxiety. The other piece is just as they say, when you go into something with an expectation, you usually get what you thought. And so this presumption that people go, oh, it's gonna be bad, like it may be, because that's how you asked it to show up a little bit. So there is that piece that people in research have spent a lot of time really like diving into the science around set and setting. So, what does the appropriate mood look like? The landscape meaning your room, do you have uh shades over your eyes? What kind of music are you listening to? There's a there's deep and rich science around all of this that can help stave off the you know, in air quotes bad trip. Now, that all notwithstanding, um, you know, if I can take the agency to be a little bit blunt, sometimes the bad trip is what you need. Uh I had one, so like I said, I was a patient of psychedelics and psychotherapy myself. And I've had lots of, you know, good trips. And what that to me means is there wasn't any crying, there wasn't any, you know, fear, there wasn't any moment where I was like, oh geez, this I could be done with this. You know, it was more illuminating, it was more clarifying, it was more connecting, all of these like what we would deem typically to be positive experiences. Um, but in fact, my most recent session, the one that I had uh just a little over a year ago, was not a good time. It was uh it was as much as I knew I was in control, like this will pass, and there's someone here who's in charge of my safety, and there was someone here to who understands what's happening for me. Um I got to re-witness some things that I wasn't particularly excited to be involved in. However, a month on the other side of that, I was able to have some really well-considered conversations that I had been avoiding for most of my life. And in from that time period to today, the transformation in my ability to address some of the most challenging things in how I've come to be the adult that I am would have not been unlocked had I not endured that five hours of unpleasantness. I might have continued to endure the balance of my life with this kind of like, you know, just enough unpleasantness that I could manage it. And now I don't even have to worry about managing it. So there's purpose sometimes to that. So I I suppose I maybe I'm not doing a great job of quelling the fears, but I am providing purpose to what's hard, you know. Think about doing the extra rep. It's not a good time, but you know it's worth it, you know?

Totally. And I think uh, you know, basically it it's it's the benefit of the thing sometimes comes with discomfort. I mean, that's like any growth in life, right? It's just like, okay, yeah, if you're gonna avoid discomfort your whole life, have fun with that because you're not gonna grow. Uh and that's right.

Exactly.

You know, I've um Yeah. So how would you this is a loaded question. How would you ready? Yeah, how would you describe the psychedelic experience to those who are uninitiated?

Cool. Yeah, okay, so this is interesting. So you so I'm gonna throw you into the ring with me. We're both giving it with the tigress. And so I'm gonna describe my experience. I'm gonna describe a lower dose experience, which would have been like a college type of experience, and then I'll describe my uh as you had phrased it, heroic dose experience, and then maybe you can tell me if that sounds like something that you've heard before.

Sure.

Because every experience is a little bit different, but there are some similarities, and so maybe we can pull out the similarities for people in a way that they can be like, oh, okay, well, that'll, you know, that's likely to happen for me, and some of this maybe not so much. So in these lower dose situations, um, and and I'll use psilocybin as a primary example because I think that's one of the first that will come to market in the States and that people will have access to. You know, there's like a little bit of low-grade nausea, kind of like you sat in the backseat for a little bit too long in the family car. And then a little bit of an elevated spirit. So for my own self, very rarely did I get into like full-on hallucinations, but my but my sense of like touch would be a little bit different. Like, you know, generally, I would do this kind of thing in the woods. I grew up in in British Columbia, so lots of nature, and my sense of connectedness to um the planet and to other people was a little bit elevated. And so I would I would best describe that experience as you know, a few giggles, a few moments of like awe, you know, looking up at the stars and going, This is really quite a thing that we're riding on this blue marble in space. That's different. And you have kind of these like altered perception moments, but nothing like um, you know, uh, nothing, nothing untoward. I never did see a scorpion emerge out of my friend's face. Um, so that so that's was kind of my lower dose. My higher dose experiences have been entirely more fulsome. So I'll I'll share a little bit about my very first heroic dose psilocybin journey. And I remember having a little bit of attitude, being like, I've done mushrooms before, I'm probably good, not a problem. And when the dose came on to me, I can remember the therapist said, when you start to feel something, put your hand up, and then we'll kind of get you outfitted with your mask and your headphones, what have you. And I, and like I say, I was a little bit cocky, and when it came on to me, I don't, I shot my hand up like I knew, you know, I had the answer to the theory of relativity in physics. Like I was like, I'm oh my gosh, this is real, this is happening. And it was predominantly this experience of um like geoditic shapes, color, some in black and white, and this real, like kind of overcoming of my senses. Which, you know, as soon as I get the music onboarded, I started to go into an entirely different experience guided by the music, where I started actually to go kind of on this journey almost as though I was flying um to places in my growing up years that I felt tremendously connected to. So it was kind of just like coming home to self. And then in the middle, there was a part where I saw my, I don't know, maybe I was eight or ten, somewhere in that age, probably younger than ten, say. And I looked myself in the eye. And even now it's hard to talk about because it was the the most clarifying, connecting moment of understanding myself and and seeing what is, you know, what is and I and I hate to almost use this word, but not my purpose in this like kind of tangible way, like what's my job, what do I do? But my purpose for being and what lights me up, like from where I get my energy and my source, and the thing that I bring into the world. And when I came out of that journey, I was never more decisive, productive, clear, etc., in my businesses and my life as I ever sounds kind of similar to your friend's experience. But so coming out of it though, I remember at the end, I thought I was, you know, down or back or whatever we're gonna call it. And then about it, you know, so I made a phone call, like, yeah, everything's good, and this and that. And then two hours later, looking back on that phone call, being like, oh no, I was still pretty out there. So the coming down took a lot longer on the heroic dose than I had been accustomed to in other in other experiences. But for the most part, um I was entirely free and able to engage fully in whatever was coming up for me in a way that was really it was no fear, it was just a lot of wholehearted, truthful recognition. So that that's kind of what my experience has been like.

Yeah, that's that's uh so I mean I've heard it described in so many ways, but I think the way you did it by just walking someone through the whole experience is probably the best way. And you can give analogies. I think um I just started listening to Joe Rogan's interview with the the founder of MAPS just yesterday, actually. And uh I didn't get through it, but you know, one of the ways that uh Joe Rogan puts to it is like, you know, you think about when you do these type of experiences, you know, of a substantial dose, you're kind of putting all of your stuff into a file folder, like all my old shit, right? And then it's your it's your choice of what you do with that file folder, right? You can open it up again and just let it back out, or you can do something with it. I thought that was a pretty good way of describing it to people. Um, you know, I think probably the biggest question that most people have is okay, cool. I'm in, right? Yeah. Uh but what now? Like where that's the and that's the challenge, right? Is like, well, where do we find someone who you know could guide you through? Um where do you source the actual uh you know psychedelic of choice? Like obviously we can't, I know you can't talk about that here, but is there certain things that you can tell people or suggest people to do or things like that that are within you know the scope of reason?

Yeah, 100%. I like your phrase, scope of reason. So we're not gonna talk about doing anything illegal, um, but we are gonna talk about what you can do today. So in the United States and in Canada, there's a drug called ketamine. It is what was formerly and is most often used as um is anesthesia, and it does have psychedelic properties. So for people who are suffering from suicidal ideation, ketamine can be a really purposeful pursuit. Uh so people who are suffering from depression, suicidal ideation, uh, you know, investigate ketamine. There probably is a ketamine clinic somewhere near you that can help you. So that's today. Um, there are a number of studies going on. So maps, uh, Rick Doblin, you can look up MAPS psychedelics, and they'll, you know, the Google will take you there. They're doing a lot of research. There's a number of psychedelics companies that are onboarding patients. Again, if you suffer for from PTSD, anxiety, uh, depression, there's a variety of indications. Um, just have a look around because you could be involved in a clinical trial. And so if you're looking for some relief before these things, make it all the way through um phase three and into being FDA approved, there's opportunities for you there. And you can travel outside the country. So if you're interested in going on holiday to do this kind of work, there's plenty of places in South America, do your homework, you know, lots of do your homework around that message because there are better and and um worser locations that really hold the the client's um experience up to like you can go over to Denmark, uh, there's places in Amsterdam that do psilocyndries, Jamaica, uh similarly. So there's a lot of locations again, depending on the molecule, I would say. Um, but if if if we could just take a second to actually, I probably didn't do as good a job as I could have earlier to help people think about what might be the first thing I would try, right? Like these things are a bit like a ladder. So ketamine is, you know, a pretty good place to start, or psilocybin is a pretty good place to start. Um, you know, when we get into MDMA and LSD, those are you know pretty good places to go. Um next. If you're you know, some of these medicines in their natural state, like the way that you would get them in early days of research, are pretty powerful. Like five Me O DMT, which is toad venom, it's next level. You know, Ibogaine next level. Some of these molecules are tremendously powerful. So you you know, you really want to be mindful about who you choose to be your provider.

Um

Ibikine, is that the same as ayahuasca?

Or is that Oh, yeah. I didn't even mention ayahuasca. So ayahuasca is up there too. It's not all the way at the top, but it's, you know, once you're in, you're pretty well, you're pretty in. And uh ayahuasca is, yeah, they pour ayahuasca oftentimes in South America. You hear oftentimes about people traveling to do ayahuasca. Um, so that is that's an option too. If people are curious, there's a show, so there's a fellow on our advisory board, his name's Hamilton Morris. He has a show on Vice called Hamilton's Pharmacopoe. And he's teamed up with a chemist. So they they're kind of, I always call him like he's like the Anthony Bornetus psychedelics. So he travels around the world and exposes himself and then helps you understand the chemistry and a little bit of the science behind a lot of these psychoactive substances. But he has some great episodes, like his Ibogaine episode is really, I'd say amazing because it um it gives a history of it. Because a lot of these medicines are really culturally rooted, right? They they go back tens of thousands of years. So Ibogaine one is interesting, the ayahuasca one similarly, tremendously interesting, because he starts from the root. Like, why did cultures do these rituals for years, decades, decades, decades? And what is it that they kind of knew that modern, you know, modern man and woman threw out the door because it wasn't science-backed, and then all of a sudden we're kind of coming back to it being, oh, maybe, maybe you were onto something there for the hundreds of years that you did that. Um, and we're just catching up with the science. So for any of your listeners who are curious about the different, you know, the different drugs and what the different impacts have, and and to kind of get a sense of it, that's a that's an interesting voyeuristic way to look at psychedelic medicine.

What what was the what was the name of the the show that you recommended?

It's called Hamilton's Pharmacopia.

Okay.

It's on ice.

Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll go check it out for sure. Um I mean, there's so much where if I'm trying to think of the right way to ask this question. Ten years from now, I just want to put a scope on it. If everything goes the way that you think it can, what is the impact that you think this what does it look like? How many people are experiencing um utilizing psychedelics? What is what does the landscape look like? What what's your what's your vision here?

Cool. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go out on a I'm pausing because there's this some trepidation around how I frame this, but I'm just gonna go whole whole hog on it, which is the the way that we're gonna get these drugs into the hands of people who need it in the in the shortest period of time. So the people who are in the most pain, they should be at the front of the line. That's gonna take a few years, but if we help people who are suffering from all of these things, depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction, and we and we and I'm talking about when I'm talking about addiction, I'm talking about cure rates of 74% for opiate addiction. Right now, best in class care is getting like 14 to 17 percent. So when we're talking about these shifts, we're talking about huge transformative experiences that absolutely change things. So if we do the first round of this has to be science-backed and evidence-based for the most painful societal indications, and everybody can get behind and say, absolutely, we need to solve for that. But here's where I get a little bit, I think it gets interesting in that what we know anecdotally, and what we've seen say in Silicon Valley with all the guys and gals who've been microdosing, and what what I know from some performance arenas that I'm in, is that there are a tremendous number of people who understand that psychedelics unlocks performance. And I think that 10 years from now, once we've started, you know, the groundswell of addressing all of these other really painful situations for folks, we're going to start to see the normalization of the use of psychedelics for performance enhancement, um, for helping people identify and connect with self and other in a way that they are more definitive, clear, uh, where they can execute quicker, better, faster. It's like, it's just like what was that, like it powered by Intel, and there was like the number three chip, and then we just like insert the number five chip. And um that's my prediction. And I know it's a bit out there, but I but I do see these people who guinea pig themselves a lot to be at the front of performance, and they're consistently accessing psychedelic medicine for that reason.

I think you're definitely on to something. I mean, there's a whole subculture that's evolving right now, and it's not even that sub anymore. Right. I mean, it's like uh, you know, I'll I'll do interviews like this, or I'll be on someone else's podcast, and you know, maybe it comes up during the interview in a light touch, and then after the interview when recording's over, it's like hit me hit me up on Signal. Right. Uh, which people don't know is a uh it's you know, it's a uh what is it, a texting app that's yeah well secured, right? So it's it's uh there's a whole culture device, and I think a lot of people, I think you're right. Once people start to look at it as like, hey, this can be a performance enhancer, right, or for life. And you know, once that starts to catch on, and it already has, I mean, the Silicon Valley, you said, has been you know, big fan, uh, big fans over there in the Silicon Valley, you know, they um they're starting to catch in, you know, everybody's looking for that little edge, right? And what's funny about psychedelics is maybe you get into it because your ego wants the edge, but then once you're in it, you kind of realize what edge.

Like I know that's oh I love it. Well, I mean, I think this is the thing. And what's interesting to me too is you know, um in full disclosure, like I have come up in a time where I've been exposed to all sorts of drugs and all sorts of folks who are just trying to get the extra 10%. And so, you know, there's a there's a number of a statistically significant collective of people I know who got into doing cocaine. Um, you know, did the like 10% more, 10% more performance route, and then arrived at a place where nothing really cut up. And I look at that experience where those that that fervent need for more and better just drove them into this like chase that you can never you never win that. Whereas psychedelics actually, interestingly, drives people ultimately away from the continued use. Um, because the performance and acuity, you get to this kind of higher level of operating that, unless it's a microdose level that's like subperceptual, meaning you don't, you know, you're not on any kind of trip. People aren't like, hey, sign me up for another five-hour, you know, psychedelic journey where I don't know what's gonna happen, and it could go either way. Like, that's not it. People do that for the big experience and to really heal. And beyond that, this is this idea of the performance dose, um, it's it's chemically not addictive and biologically, physiologically not addictive. And interestingly, it doesn't become habitual. So I find there's something fascinating there that the science is yet to proof. Um, but I've never seen someone on a you know a trip away where they accidentally forgot to pack their microdose, start to freak out, be like, you know, hey man, we gotta find someone. They don't do that, they're like, oh pick up when I get home, you know, not a big deal.

Yeah. And it's it is interesting and it's really promising. People want to classify it into recreational drugs like cocaine or marijuana or whatever it may be, which you know, I know many cases are not recreational, they're even for a specific reason. Um, but it's true, you know. I've so many times people said, well, no, I just know myself and I've got to addict to put I don't want to get into psychedelics. I'm like, well, I got this that's not it. You're missing it. It's not that's not what it happens, really. And um yeah, well, I I want to respect your time, I can ask you questions all day.

Well, this has been lots of fun, man. And really and truly, if there are more questions or your listeners have questions and they want to send them over, like happy to uh happy to do a short and or or just even respond in a way that that can honor people's curiosity because I know it's a really compelling subject, and I and I understand that people are curious. And um, you know, my part in leading this organization is like I never thought I'd be the CEO of a publicly traded psychedelics company. Who knew that would ever happen?

Right?

Yeah, and here you are. Yeah, it's it's interesting too. I mean, this definitely doesn't fall into the normal classifications of the interviews that I do. Uh, but when the opportunity presented itself, I was like, you know, like who cares if it falls into a category? It's just really interesting. It's something that people want to know about. Um, you know, whenever I've kind of diverged off a normal path in this podcast, one, you know, I think two of my all-time most downloaded episodes, uh, two out of the top four are cannabis related, right? Um not anything to do with like how to write a program or fitness technology or lifestyle entrepreneurship. It's about those things, and people are really dying to learn about it. So it's been great having you. If if people do want to ask you more questions, Kelsey, or they want to, you know, yeah, where do you send people online? Give us that.

Yeah, 100%. So they can find me at Kelsey Ramsden um or you know, send something to at mindcure. So uh I'm I'm on Instagram, I am on LinkedIn, I I am all the places that people show up, aside from Facebook. I don't really show up there very often, but um but you can check us out in those locations. And if you want to check out our work, you can go to mindcure.com or mindcurewellness.com and and um you know say uh say you heard me on this show, and I'll make the team, I'll let the team know. Funnel the people. I will uh I will be in touch and respond to whatever questions you might have.

Very cool. Well, Kelsey, thank you so much for spending some time with me today and uh answering all of my questions with fervor. Um you didn't back away from anything, it was great. Um so yeah, really appreciate your time. It's great. Um, people should definitely go check out Minecraft, get to know what they're doing, and uh overall start asking more questions. And don't be afraid of asking those questions. I think that's the most important thing. So, ladies and gentlemen, Kelsey Ramsden.

Thanks, Eric.

Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This was your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Minutes. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it, iTunes, Spotify, Castbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. We want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more or get in touch with me, simply go to the future of fitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone, and this is the Future of Fitness. Have a great day.