Women's Health Series - Groe Solutions: Dr. Jennifer King, PhD, MPH - The Forgotten Population

[00:00:02] Hey friends, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top rated fitness and wellness industry podcast for over five years and running. I'm your host, Eric Malzone, and I have the honor of talking to entrepreneurs, innovators, and cutting edge technology experts within the extremely fast paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. If you like the show, we'd love it if you took three minutes of your day to leave us a nice supportive review wherever you consume your podcasts. If you're interested in staying up to date with the Future of Fitness, go to

[00:00:31] futureoffitness.co to subscribe and get weekly summaries dropped into your inbox. Now onto the show.

[00:00:47] Hey friends, this special women's health series is sponsored by Groe Solutions and I couldn't appreciate their support any more than I do. So, nine years I owned and operated gyms and I know firsthand how much time gets eaten by fragmented systems and admin chaos. Groe fixes that.

[00:01:07] One actionable operating system that helps you streamline operations, support your staff and actually improve member experience. Your coaches belong on the floor. They do not belong buried in disconnected tools. It's a good product. It's great people. Please take some time to go check them out. It's grow.solutions. That's G-R-O-E dot solutions. And before we get into the interview, you're going to know something a little bit different about this series.

[00:01:36] So, Alan, the founder and CEO of Groe Solutions dedicated this series to three women in his life. And so, right after this, you'll hear that dedication and then we'll get into the interview. So, take a moment, appreciate it, let it sink in and enjoy the show. Thank you. This episode is dedicated to my wife, Mariko. From the Marine Corps to spontaneous international moves and now the life of a startup entrepreneur.

[00:02:05] You supported my craziness. You supported my craziness the whole time and all while being the steady core that the family's built on. And I could have all the success in the world, but without that core, without that family that we've built together, that you built and maintained, it would mean very little. So, I hope this episode helps you and gives you some knowledge that you can tuck in your back pocket when those changes come in your life.

[00:02:33] And I hope I can be that strong core and stable core for you when those times come. I love you and let's keep going. Another 15. All right. Here we go. Dr. Amy Bantham, welcome to the Future of Fitness. Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah. This is going to be great. I'm very excited about this. And this is obviously the third installment of the Women's Health Series brought to us by Grow Solutions.

[00:02:59] And, you know, I'm going to set the stage a little bit here, Dr. King, because I think what we're talking about today is, you know, very much the, I think it's a blind spot for the industry. I think it's kind of a forgotten segment of the population that's just not being served the way it can be. And you're going to talk about why that is, what we can do about it, and exactly kind of with the history of it and where we've gotten it wrong.

[00:03:21] And, you know, our first episode, we had Anaelle Oiknine from Ultrahuman, and she really kind of set the stage with the data, right? Like, where has the research been wrong? Where are the gaps in the research, the data-driven approach through UltraHuman from, you know, wearable data and research data and things like that.

[00:03:39] Then we moved on to Amy Bantham, and she talked about kind of the full life cycle of women's health, you know, from young to old, the importance of community and social connections at every stage and what that looks like. Like, now we're going to bring you in and close it out, and we're going to talk about, you know, women over 60 and about you, and you can please fill in the gaps. Like, you know, you have a strong background in behavioral science, a geriatric researcher.

[00:04:08] You also have been an athlete, so you're a Division I athlete. I think it was at field hockey or soccer, or what was it exactly? Women's Division I soccer. Soccer, that's right. Long time ago. Badass, yeah, badass. But you're still competing, right? Yeah, you're still competing at the national level in physique. So this is your life. I'm a lifelong athlete, yes. Yeah, yeah, it's great. And I consider myself an athlete sometimes, not as much as I used to.

[00:04:34] But here's the thesis, right, that you come forth, and we'll talk about why this is critical, is that once women are done with their perceived societal utility, the research, the diagnostics, and the fitness industry overall simply just kind of moves on. And let's start with that. Like, why? Why do you think that happens? And maybe give us a little bit of historical insight into your view on that. Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for having me here.

[00:05:04] And it's such a great opportunity and such a pleasure to be following two wonderful women in the industry and their discussion talking points, all incredibly important. And moving the research and science forward. And I'm happy to be here. So a lot to unpack with that question, Eric. We could be here for weeks. But for the sake of a tight podcast, my goal here is to really think about women's health, that 60 and beyond.

[00:05:33] And like you said, how it's almost like a drastic drop-off in terms of the research, the science, and pushing that forward. So, you know, when we're thinking about women's health, most of that attention is focused on early adulthood. So we've got, you know, fertility, pregnancy, even aesthetics.

[00:05:54] But what's really striking is that once women move past, you know, that menopausal time, there's a noticeable drop-off in attention from the research, the diagnostics, and even fitness. So, you know, what's funny is it's one of the most biologically dynamic and critical periods for health and longevity and quality of life in this population.

[00:06:17] So what we're seeing in newer research, I will say we're doing a little bit better, is that, you know, menopause is not just that hormonal shift. It's a system-wide transition that's impacting metabolic health, you know, cardiovascular risk, and muscular skeletal function.

[00:06:36] So when I talk about women that are 60 and beyond as potentially the forgotten population, it's not just because, you know, from my perspective and lack of research that they're invisible, but it's the system that's supposed to support them haven't necessarily evolved to really meet their needs.

[00:06:56] So now that I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to say as both as a behavioral scientist studying aging and someone who is, you know, like you said, I compete and I work out six days a week. I compete at a national level. I see this gap both from the research side and the real world side. So as a participant, yes, I might be younger than that demographic, but I've got a milestone birthday myself I'm encroaching on.

[00:07:26] So I'm passionate about this population. You know, it's so interesting. And as we're talking about it, it's just noticing that I have, like, especially in topics that come up in this podcast is everyone really likes the targeting the middle-aged woman nowadays, like as far as a consumer goes. Like there's so many products and services and programs and you name it, like it's all focused on this age group from, you know, pre-menopause to pre-menopause to menopause. But post-menopause seems to be missing.

[00:07:55] And anecdotally, like I go to, you know, once or twice a week, I'll take a 9 a.m. spin class. My schedule allows it, right? I can do that. And it's mostly women over 60 and me. And I'm just, I get the feeling that a lot of them don't know if this is the right exercise. What they're doing is right. They just know that they should be getting in and, you know, and sweating, right? And getting a workout. But it's just a sense I get, right? So I don't know. Like when you look at this demographic, like what are they feeling?

[00:08:24] Are they just feeling confused and lost? Are they trying the wrong things? Are they, do they not know who to go to? Are they intimidated? Like what are they feeling overall? And again, I don't want to do a blanket statement as a researcher and scientist, but, and speak on behalf of a population, but 60 and up from a research perspective, often older adult women. And to me as a geriatric type gerontologist and researcher of older adults, 60 and up, 60

[00:08:53] is a young woman for me. I'm still working with that 80 and up population. Those are my long-term care days. But from a research perspective, older adult women, which they categorize as 60 and with time changing, again, I find that to be a younger woman, but that's the first phase of older adult. They're often excluded from these studies. So it's, it's usually, what's interesting is there, it's usually justified by saying that

[00:09:18] they might have too many variables like comorbidities or medication, hormonal changes. But what that's kind of created in a situation where much of our clinical guidance is based on this population, we don't actually reflect the people we're trying to really treat. So going back to your spin class, that microcosm of the women in there, you know, there's a lot of things to unpack there behaviorally and also demographically that you mentioned.

[00:09:44] So like when you're in there and you see, you see the women, it might be, you know, health is dynamic socially. I'm sure my counterparts may have touched on this during their podcast, but, you know, does this woman feel invited or accepted in an environment? Where does she feel safe to go even to do her physical activity? Accessibility. Is this something she feels safe with in terms of doing it because she knows how to set up the machine? Or does she have social support?

[00:10:14] Does she have someone joining with her, a companion? So there's a lot of lack of data and representation. So that can kind of lead to that perception you're seeing when you go to your spin class. There's many dynamics happening there. Yeah. And I don't know if that answered your question. No, it does. It does. And I'm going to get into a more specific question here in a minute about like, if you were going

[00:10:41] to redesign, you know, like a fitness or health experience for this, if you had, you know, money, right? Someone handed you a million bucks and they're like, I want you to design. If I had an unlimited budget. Yeah. Someone said, hey, I want you to design this facility, right? That is, you know, specifically for, you know, women in this age demographic, you know, from a health and fitness perspective. So let that stew in the back of your head as I ask this next question, because I think they're both related. You know, what are, what's the fitness industry's blind spots?

[00:11:08] Like you had mentioned some things in our prep call that really, I'm like, God, I've been in this industry forever, dude. And I didn't even think about this stuff. Right. So where are we blind? Oh, well, there's, there's, there's so much opportunity. I don't want to say, I want to, I want to reframe it as opportunity, you know? Okay. Great. Especially from the perspective of who, who is hosting this podcast, you know?

[00:11:34] So when we talk about fitness industry and maybe the blind spots, as you, as you said, but I see it as opportunity. When you walk into most of these gyms today, ask yourself, was this space intentionally designed for someone 60 years older and maybe female? The question to me, when I walk into a space, typically that's not the case in most gyms. Right. Right.

[00:12:02] So the, the answer is almost always no. And the equipment, you know, from the equipment, we could go on the front end from the societal systemic level, but I'm going to break it down just for the brick and mortar. The equipment, the programming, even the environment is not built with this population in mind. Let's just be honest. So, uh, like I said, it's interesting because we have strong evidence that shows structured

[00:12:29] exercise programs absolutely improves strength. It reduces fall risks and significantly improves health-related quality of life. That's where I'm mostly published. And, and, and it's, and it's in women mostly well into their seventies and eighties. So if we're talking about systemic wide downstream sequelae, treating those women on the front end of that early stage of those phases of aging, which is, you know, over time.

[00:12:57] And my predecessor that spoke about over the lifespan. I love that aging is not from 60 and up. It starts from, well, we could get into another area of research, but it could start from infancy. You know, you, you start aging immediately when you're born. So, you know, for me, I, I look at the setup of, you know, my current gem. I, I, I, I'm also very much privileged and have the opportunity to have my own gem as well.

[00:13:27] Not only do I have, but, you know, accessibility, you know, is it even accessible to a population? And that's just across the board, you know, health disparities, health equity. So that's a whole nother lecture we can get into. Not that I'm teaching an undergraduate or graduate level course here, but for the sake of this population, 16 up women, you know, accessibility, like you said, like, and I'm curious when you go to take that spin class, where is it located?

[00:13:55] It's located upstairs near the cardio room. Absolutely. I was, I was figuring upstairs and tucked into the corner. Yeah. Yeah. Let's put all of that into the corner. And I understand, listen, I am. I love weightlifting. I resistance train six days a week. I train grown men walk by me. I'm, I'm, I'm not lifting small weights. I, like you said, I do do competing.

[00:14:25] I am working out with a lot of my, you know, opposite sex out on the gym floor and layout in those free weights and machines. If I can actually fit in them without like an actual, I'm a smaller athlete. So that was my other point is, you know, not only is the location of those cardio machines typically upstairs or tucked off this corner. And I understand I'm going to get maybe some pushback from gym owners, you know, space, utilization, equipment size, et cetera.

[00:14:54] But it does lend to this perception that, oh, that's just where the morning swim class goes or the cardio can go because we have our, our group of older adult women that come in in the morning. I go in the morning as well. No 500 and work out. And it's just, you can kind of see our group of, you know, women go work out together.

[00:15:18] And it's, and it's also a social event for, you know, most 16 up, like it's time to get out and be social, especially if you're retired, you're not going to have a nine to five, like you and me, you know, life is constantly changing over time. Right. So it's, it's a lot of different things that go into that cardio class. And I'm sure when you got that membership, when you, I mean, you're married, you, you have a spouse.

[00:15:45] I'm sure maybe tours might be a little bit different if, if you're received on the front end from, from a logistic standpoint and sales, you know, what did your tour look like when you went to go get your membership? Oh gosh, that was so long ago. Or any in general. Yeah. You know, I don't know if I'm a good person to ask that because, you know, I don't even like, I don't even get a tour. Like I look around, you know, but you know, like I had Dr. Stacey Sims on this podcast last year and there's one thing she said too.

[00:16:14] She pointed it out very specifically is like, if, if a female gets, starts with the tour, they're probably going to show her the cardio room first. Yes. Right. Men, they're going to show the strength training. Like, it's just, it, it's just almost an un, it's like a, they're not even aware of the bias. Oh, exactly. And it's the internal bias. And then, and, but sometimes it's not even done negatively. Typically it's a younger front desk personnel and we're hiring is typically demographically

[00:16:41] under 30 and they're wanting to be, you know, they might see a, someone that looks like their grandma or grandpa or their mom or dad. They want to show them all the resources. And typically what's been utilized and from their bias is that cardio area. So it happened to me and, and, and it was interesting because I knew the gym owner where I, where I go and, you know, I, I got the tour, but it was, it started at the cardio

[00:17:08] and I was surprised because, you know, I I'm a nationally qualified athlete. I trained as division one. I played pro over the summers when I, this was 20 years ago before the NIL and all of this new change with the division one athletes. But, you know, I was just like, Oh, I will take the tour. I was excited to experience it, to see what happened. So yeah, there's, there's, there's so many things. It's so complex, Eric.

[00:17:33] Like I said, we could go so hard into the weeds on this, but for the sake of the time and podcast, you know, the environment lends to this, this systemic lack of like pushing that woman to the weights where she's going to get the biggest return on investment. And, you know, frankly, it's, it's, it's gym tepidation, right? Like it can be intimidating going downstairs and working out next to potentially an IFBB pro

[00:18:01] that's working out or an NPC competitor. That's pretty close to getting their pro card, you know? So, but I just want to create this more welcoming environment. I feel like we're in a great time in society where we're so much more welcoming and kindness is there for the gym. Like I get, I have had my undergraduate and graduate students approach, Dr. King, how do I use this machine? I'm, I'm showing them how to use their, the pendulum squat machine or other things, you know, it's a teaching opportunity.

[00:18:29] So, you know, I see it even with the younger population. It's, it's intimidating to go into a space where you might have a predominantly Caucasian male, 25 to, you know, 55 year old demographic and they're moving some serious weights. So that can be a little bit intimidating, but I'm hoping, you know, as we talk about this more, we can create an environment where everyone feels welcome to go work out because I love it. Yeah.

[00:18:59] So we did a lot there. Sorry. Yeah. No, that was great. That was awesome. I think all the other questions I have can be wrapped into this one. So let's say, yeah, if I gave you a budget, 2 million, Dr. King, and I'm like, I want you to, yeah, we're going to need, you're going to need to include marketing. Yeah. Just build out the facility and the experience, right? Whatever it is, like you had a really comfortable budget to work with and you're going to build out just like your dream facility with the best health and fitness experience for this particular population.

[00:19:29] What would that look like? Like, what would you do? Paint us a picture. Oh, wow. Okay. So, and I'm not here to promote any one product or gym or space. Sure. But if I, you know, I want to say this, what the industry is really getting wrong here is I think they tend to make two mistakes. It's either that they treat older adult women as fragile.

[00:19:52] And I have met some incredible bodybuilders, women, and masters, and it was shocking to me, masters bodybuilding. I have to tell it just a side note, starts at 35 plus. I said, oh my goodness, 35 is so young. So things change. I understand. But, you know, from a tend of, you know, where we're getting it mistaken is that we're fragile

[00:20:19] or that they all out ignore it because they don't know how to approach it. So, and neither of those two approaches really work. So older adult women don't need to be fixed. They just need to be supported. And like you said, the environment is a big catalyst for change. If we want to do better, I would say we need to focus on a few areas. In terms of a brick and mortar, maybe a space. Okay.

[00:20:46] In terms of gems, because that was the question I could go much higher, but for the sense of the question, the question, I would say we need to design for accessibility, strength, and longevity. So, and there's some behavioral change. I would call them nudges that would support that. So a gym that I have been to, and I won't name the name, but it is a women-owned business and it may or may not be.

[00:21:15] And that's the other thing, the accessibility, the price of such a gym. It's in a prominently social economic status, higher end community. And this gym is immaculate. You walk in and you have options, not only for, you don't walk right into a gym space. You walk right into a concierge almost type area where it's, where you can get a healthy meal that actually is pretty affordable.

[00:21:45] And first right room you walk into, it happens to be the cardio space. And it's, and then, you know, they have the locker rooms off to the left, to the right. There's, there's a lot of pink in this gym. So it is designed for women in mind. And I have to tell you across one of the walls, they have a team of women embracing each other for a photo. Okay.

[00:22:10] So you walk through the space and then you got kind of go through a portal, a divider space, kind of almost like a tunnel. And then you walk out into the open gym space, which you would be used to. And in fact, this gym owner, who's a woman actually put her cardio machines right up front to the right and a stair master, the goat, you know, and you've got all of those different machines.

[00:22:36] And then to the left, you get more into the, it is focused on women. So all of that lower body extremity, we call it the booty boulevard in terms of the machines. Listen, you're talking to a, a bikini competitor to tell you the truth. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. I walk in and I'm like, it's like Christmas morning, Eric.

[00:23:01] I'm running into the gym with glee and joy because not only do I have my macros available to me, a space that's inviting and, and, and, and not, I feel safe there. I felt, I feel welcomed and there's a lot of pink, like I said, but we have all the machines there, but everyone's so welcoming, especially the staff in terms of showing you the different machines. So if I have a question or look like I'm just staring at something, I've even had gentlemen

[00:23:29] in the, in the gym come over and, Oh, you like that machine? You have, you tried it before you got to try this out. So I guess it starts with the actual, like the population that's going and the space you're actually in and creating that environment for your gym goers, right? Creating a space where they feel welcomed and no one's going to be made fun of or pushed around in terms of, Oh, how many more sets do you have? I'm sure you've had that happen to you.

[00:23:54] Where she's just trying to get in some movements with weight resistance and build that muscle density. Right. And that might be her only opportunity one day out of the week that she gets, we don't know if this woman is an older adult living in rural area, driving in to go to a community gym or something like what I'm describing. This is, you gave me the, the sky, the shoot, shoot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:20] But I have yet to be in a facility that I, when I travel my, what I do on my bucket list is go to different gyms. That's what I do. And I go to check out what they have, the layouts, et cetera. It's like my, some people might like to go shopping in a area or go see the arts. I find local niche gyms and what machines are out there.

[00:24:48] So I've seen a lot of gyms in my time. And this gym has an area where it's just, and they have a turf area for a high intensity interval training. You know, you see the sleds, the ropes, et cetera. I've seen some professional athletes train in that area and different sports, you know, NFL, pro baseball players, et cetera, with a trainer, if they're doing off side things on their own versus with their team at the team centers.

[00:25:14] So, and then the, and the free weights and more of those other big matrix pieces are actually in the far right corner of the gym. So I think it's setting a precedent with, in terms of the layout, setting a gym culture or a physical activity culture to where it's just because mom turns 40 or 60 or 70, we count her out and she's now invisible.

[00:25:41] We have to create an environment where, because on the downstream, on the backend, healthcare expenditures are through the roof in terms of treatment. And the biggest population that explodes that expenditure is older adults. And we're talking 80 and up. So if we can, you know, create a space, a gym, an environment where we can, I say young,

[00:26:07] a 60 plus year old woman, or even 40 plus or post reproductive, you know, moms had, you know, post pregnancy, getting her back in the gym and reinvesting in her. Beyond just fertility and reproduction. We're going to really have something to look at in terms of long-term for our society. It's not just that demographic where if we invest in these women, older adult women who

[00:26:34] gave so much of their lives to us on the front end of it, we're really capturing, you know, investing on society as a whole. So sorry, I've went on a little bit of a long tangent about investment of these women. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's not just about health, Eric, it's about quality of life. And I'm sure you feel that way, right? All the way. Yeah.

[00:27:02] And if we get it right, we're not just helping, like I said, women live longer. We're helping women stay independent, capable, and engaged in our lives. Because you know, we typically outlive men. So yeah, you know, that's another thing. Like my mom is 80, she'll be 88 in a few months. And she lives nearby. That's right. You said you take her to dinner. Yeah, that's right. We went out to dinner last night. Yeah, it was great.

[00:27:27] But it's hard not to notice when I walk into that area. And it's like, you know, dinner time or everyone's, you know, kind of out in the main hall. There's very few men there. Very few. And so it just gets to show like, you know, this is a population that needs to help. And, you know, I want to bring this up because I mean, they're also a sponsor of this podcast, but I'm always very impressed with eGym. Because, you know, I was at their event last year where it was all for the YMCA as I got to speak a little bit to that population.

[00:27:57] I sat down with a lot of the operators from the YMCA and they were talking about how when EGIM equipment gets put into there and like the over 65 crowd, especially the female, get a hold of it and realize how simple it is, right? How easy it is. You just scan this little thing and it walks you through it. There's no intimidation. How that population specifically just flocked to this equipment because it's smart. It's easy. It's accessible. It's non-intimidating, right? And I think that's a really good example too of how technology can help in this population.

[00:28:25] I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's worth looking into. Absolutely. And I see that from a perspective, also a researcher, you know, oftentimes there's this stigma that 16 up aren't fluent with technology. It's a societal systemic issue. That's not the case. I've come across brilliant older adults who are even faster on their iPads and the wearables and the eGym type setup.

[00:28:54] So I think it's beautiful. And it's a wonderful opportunity to see where this is going to go for future trajectories. You know, I'm excited for my aging trajectory, you know, across my lifespan and, you know, in 20, 30 years, what that's going to look like for our space, Eric, right? Right. No, it's a really exciting time to be in this industry. I've been, you know, in and around for about 17, 18 years.

[00:29:21] And as many times I was like, you know, especially during the pandemic, I'm like, we're done. You know, this is it. We're barely hanging on for a while. But, and then that happened. But now it seems like, you know, just this new influx of A, interest in fitness and health. And I think that's kind of a byproduct of the pandemic as well. And the younger generation, right? But also, you know, these, the baby boomer generation, you know, is very much in the retirement age. You know, they're looking to maintain their health and longevity for as long as possible and return to the gym as well.

[00:29:50] So it's been this really kind of convergence on our industry that's really exciting. And then technology and all these different things that are catching up. So it's been a, it's a good time. And I think I'm very optimistic where we are now. And especially if we can learn to serve better these particular populations that have been left behind for the most part, there's tremendous opportunities. And I hope people listen to this and kind of grasp it and say, hey, I'm actually going to take some action. I see the opportunity to help more people here. Oh yeah.

[00:30:17] We're seeing that in the research and we know that strength and functional capacity. What we talked about are some of the strongest predictors for longevity. And I have to tell you longevity without quality, that is not success. It's not good. Yeah. We'll leave it at that. Yeah. Well, Dr. King, thank you for doing this. I know you're extremely busy. And so we really appreciate your time set aside to have this and kind of close out this, this series.

[00:30:44] Is there anywhere if people want to reach out to you or follow you, is there a place that they can go? Where would you like them to go? Absolutely. You can find me on LinkedIn and that I can include that. And I'm just really grateful to sit down with you, Eric. This has been a wonderful discussion. It makes me so excited, you know, to nerd out a little bit as a scientist and advocate for older adult women, because there's not a lot of us researchers that tend to go to this area.

[00:31:10] You know, like I said, just so incredibly grateful for you and grow and the sponsor of this podcast to give this a platform for us to discuss it. Right on. Well, carry on with your day. Great job on the interview. Thank you so much for being here. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Jennifer King. My pleasure. Thank you. Hey, friends. Thank you for tuning into this very special women's health series presented by Grow Solutions.

[00:31:38] We're purposely dropping the series during National Women's Health Week because this conversation is critically important and frankly, a little overdue. So please share it with someone in your life. Better yet, pick up the phone and call her. Subscribe to the Future of Fitness wherever you listen. Leave us a review if you found value here. If you want to learn more, go to futureoffitness.co. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you next time.