USA Cycling - Kevin Dessart

Uh and that's where as a coach you cringe when when athletes do that because, like, great, you bought all that bike to make you faster. You know, you got your race wheels, you got your aero helmet if you're a truck, you've got all this aero equipment, um, but you don't know how to train. And that's where you'll see the biggest gains is in the training, not in the equipment.

Hey fitness friends, welcome back to the future of fitness podcast and interview series. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and this is episode number 116. I'm coming to you from our Whitefish Montana Studios, aka my home office. And I get to talk to Kevin Dessert. He is from USA Cycling. He is the director of coaching education and athlete development. And I had a really uh great time talking to him. I think, you know, from a personal standpoint, our values aligned as far as uh, you know, lifestyle always comes first. And it was also very educational about the world of cycling. Uh, I haven't dove too much into the world of cycling. He was actually referred to me uh as a guest by Menachem out of Tel Aviv. So thank you for that uh connection, Menachem. And it was yeah, just interesting overall to see where the sport is going, how they're training people, how they're developing athletes from a young age, and how they're identifying talent. I think there's a lot of lessons for all sports uh to learn from how they're doing things there. And then it was really interesting to me to talk about the relationship of how the sport develops and how safety uh and accessibility on our urban and suburban uh roads reflects on how the sport is doing. And it makes total sense, right? If people are gonna get out on a bike and train and be part of USA cycling or be part of that FEDA program, they have to feel safe, right? They have to be on the roads and they have to feel safe. And that was an interesting point of conversation. I didn't see it coming, but uh I think you'll see. I tried to represent a couple points of views when we talked about it, and uh it was really interesting combo. So also, before I get into the interview here, I am excited to say that this episode is brought to you by Certified Course Creation. So if you have an expertise, you have a specific style of knowledge that you need to get out there and you're wanting to stop trading your time for money, uh, go to CertifiedCourseCreation.com and their expert team will help you pull out that concept, right, with a free discovery call, and then start to build curriculum behind it, uh, annotate it with scientific writers, build exams, sales funnels, email, launch series, you name it, everything to build a very highly lucrative online certification program. And let's be honest, you know, uh if there is one area, uh one industry that I believe is ripe for disruption, I think it's education. Everything's moving online. So this is a great time to you know put all those years of work you put in the trenches, right, as a fitness and health professional. When you've been nailing down your expertise, time to get it out there. Uh put your flag in the ground and uh make yourself an expert. Uh identify yourself as an expert that you already are. So certifiedcoursecreation.com, go check it out. Without further ado, this is episode number 116 with Kevin Desert of USA Cycling. Enjoy the show. Kevin, we're live. Welcome to the future of fitness, my friend. Awesome, Mike Zarry. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And uh, like all great podcasts start, I have to mention that we had a great conversation right before this that I was not recording and that people will never hear. Um but hopefully we can uh we can recreate that. Yeah, hopefully we can recreate it a little bit better. Uh Kevin, let's do this, man, before we get into um some pretty cool topics about USA cycling, your background coaching, um how much coaches don't know and that they need to admit, and uh what it's like to, you know, um, you know, have people perform when they need to, not just, you know, in the practice realm, right? Um give us your background. You know, what do you do? Give us a little bit of your story.

Okay, so I'm the director of coaching education and athlete development with USA Cycling. I've been here now uh coming up on seven years. Prior to that, I worked with a coaching company here in Colorado Springs for uh almost 10 years. Um prior to that, I worked in the NHL for I don't know, 11 years. And that was like my first job out of school. I worked for the New York Islanders and worked my way through uh with three different teams in the NHL. Um and then we got to the point where I've been in Colorado now 17 years. Everybody asked, you know, do you move for a job? Or no, I moved this where I want to live. It was a lifestyle choice. And I'm like, with the area and what we have in Colorado Springs as far as national governing bodies and a lot of other uh amateur sports entities, I'm like, we can move out there, I can get a job out there. Um, so we did back in shoot 2001, I guess it was. So yeah, almost 18 years. So been here and it's a it's been a blast.

Yeah, I I've heard amazing thing about Colorado Springs. I've actually never been there, but when I imagine it, I just imagine like these amazing athletes walking everywhere. Because it's like it seems like such a hub of performance and athleticism and outdoorsmen's, yeah.

Yeah, and to give you a little example of that, and this isn't to make this about my athletic background because it's nothing to speak of, but when I was born and raised on the East Coast of New York and started racing triathlons in college, um, and I go to a race, eventually got to the point where in New York on Long Island, you know, I could pretty much go to a race and compete for the win or top five. I showed up to Colorado Springs in my first race, and I looked around. Uh, I had to bargain my way into the elite wave. And I got to the start of the race, and I'm looking at guys on the beach, and I'm just kind of like, that's Hunter Kemper. That's Mike Smedley, that's so-and-so, that's so and so. Um I remember turning around, looking at my wife, and I'm like, what the? Oh, this is gonna be interesting. These are all guys that were Olympians and professional athletes that are just at a local, a local race. So there is a lot of that around. There's a lot of uh world-class athletes in the area, um, but not as many as in Boulder, I'll say that. Uh Boulder is the like the mecca for it, but um, but it's pretty, it can be pretty intimidating. Sure. I'll say that.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I so we left California uh about two years ago. Um because you know, we wanted a different lifestyle. So, you know, now we're I'm in Whitefish, Montana. And uh, you know, it's it's so you know, for people who are really lifestyle focused, you know, it sounds like you and I are like that's my number one value, right? Really like I want, you know, a great lifestyle. I want to have the things around me that I want to access, I want to access them when I want them, when I want them. Um but just seeing like up here, it's a different breed of person too, you know, like everyone was born on skis, right? Apparently. And uh, you know, like resort skiing is like boring here. It's like, well, why why would I ever ski the resort unless it's like, you know, 16 inches of powder? And uh, but they're all just just it's just god, they're just incredible physical specimens here. They're just bred that way. Yeah. And yeah, I'd imagine I like I said, I've never been to Cholera Springs. I have good friends in Boulder who are amazing athletes, extremely outdoor. Um, and I think it's just, you know, those communities tend to thrive in areas like that. Yeah, they do, for sure. So tell us about what you do at USA cycling a little bit more.

So my role um on the coaching education side is that we have about 1,600 licensed coaches. I'm responsible for uh licensing them, the curriculum that they have to study, the curriculum that they have to use for continuing education, putting on all of our coach clinics, our coach summit. Um anything that has to do with making a coach a better cycling coach from a USA cycling perspective falls under me. Um, and then on the athlete development side of things, I'm also responsible for kind of the entry way for young athletes into our pipeline. So I manage about a dozen talent ID camps every summer uh all over the US, which brings in 14 to 19 uh year old athletes. Uh we put them through a week of skills and drills and training, all in the in the in an effort to A, them better cyclist, uh, B kind of just recognize where the athlete is at. And a lot of people, a lot of people, excuse me, your talent ID, and they think they have to be the best of the best at that age. And that's that's not how I view talent ID. Talent ID is like looking at an athlete, they because again, at that age, there can be so much disparity. So you might have a young 14 or 15-year-old boy or girl who can't compete with a 16 or 17-year-old boy or girl, or another 14-year-old, 14 or 15-year-old boy or girl who may as may have matured earlier than they did. But it's kind of keeping an eye on those athletes and seeing just where they are currently, and then following their progress um throughout their site. Are they going to continue to ride? Are they gonna continue to race? Are they gonna come back to camp so we can see them next year? So we can kind of just track the progress and then see if if we get them in the pipeline, do we afford them other opportunities to go to like a European camp or do some racing uh domestically for us? Um, but just kind of provide that entryway. Um, and then also on the athlete development side, we have a new program, Miracle, our Olympic develop Olympic development program, specifically on the track. I oversee that program, and again, that's for our 14 to 19-year-old track sprinters. Uh, sorry, track athletes, both sprinters and endurance athletes, where um these are athletes that do come to a camp specifically to be selected to be part of the ODP development team. Uh, we have, I think, 18 athletes on that team right now, nine sprint and nine endurance athletes. We periodically bring them to camps, we bring them to different race opportunities, we have a whole new race series this year that they're going to be included in. Uh, all with the goal of, you know, at this point, again, they're they're young athletes. We're not so concerned with results right now, but the goal is to create those athletes into our future Olympians. So, you know, five, six, seven, ten years from now, they're racing for us on an international level at World Championships, Olympic Games, uh, but kind of providing a more defined path on the uh on the track side for these athletes. Um, so it accomplices uh a fair amount of variety. Uh but what's nice is that because I've got coaching education and athlete development tied together, I can almost identify coaches who might be good fits for different positions as we move along. Because you know, coaches, some coaches come and go. When we have new programs, we obviously have to staff them properly. Uh, but it gives me an opportunity when I meet coaches and I work with them just to kind of get to know them, what they're what they're all about. Would this coach be a good fit to work in this program? Would this coach be a good fit to maybe take a team to Ireland or or somewhere else in Europe? Um, so it's kind of a nice uh a little bit of cohesion there, if you will, kind of taking it, not just having athletes develop in a pipeline, but giving coaches opportunities. Um, because I am dealing with a lot of coaches on a day-to-day basis. So it's kind of a nice, a nice uh, I don't know what the word is I'm looking for, but a nice blend or mixture uh both on the coaching education and athlete development side.

Yeah. Interesting. And you know, something that caught my attention, um, all of that was sound, it sounds like a really fun job. Um worse ways to make a living. I'll uh yeah, yeah, it sounds really cool. Uh especially if someone, if you're it sounds like you've been an athlete your whole life. So to be able to kind of, you know, um within that environment.

I'll admit, I'm pretty I'm pretty proud of being that I have been an athlete my whole life, but I also I went to school for this. I went to I have uh athletic administration major from St. John's University. So it's kind of like I know a lot of people that have gone to school and never used their major before, not happy in their job. And you know something? They may make a little bit a lot more money than me. But I would argue happiness and lifestyle. Um, I'm pretty fortunate. And I and I don't take that for granted at all. Um, so yeah, it's like there are definitely worse ways to make a living.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you look happy, healthy, and you've got a little bit of a tan.

So uh truth be truth be told, I might still have a little of the tan left. New Year's, we spent a week in Hawaii, then I flew right from Hawaii to a coaching clinic in Phoenix. So I spent the first two weeks of the new year in um some nice weather and was outside every day almost all day.

So for you, man. So uh talent identification. Yes. That sounds like an art within itself, you know, and and I because okay, here's what ran through my head, right? It's like I was thinking about, you know, I I've been in my background was essentially in aquatics, so swimming in water polo at a very early age. Um most of my friends that I grew up with, I'm really good friends with still. Uh, you know, a lot of them were great athletes at a specific age, right? And then they kind of got out of high school, everything kind of fizzled out. Um, I got into, you know, a very school. Yeah, yeah. And then I got so I got into water polo. I had a pretty successful career for a while. Um, no one would have saw that coming. I was a chubby kid, right? You know, sixth, seventh grade. Um, and I can think of a couple of examples of people who, you know, you wouldn't have seen it coming, right? Right. Unless maybe you had an eye for it.

Well, yeah, and part of that, Eric, being is I I guess you could you could call it an art. I just like to think it's using common sense. Just because that's an art nowadays. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. But if you look at like the whole the whole American development model. Okay. Different athletes mature at different ages. We're not machines, we're not robots. So, like it, like I said earlier, you could take a 16-year-old boy who has gone through puberty, he's matured, he looks like a grown man. Then you have a 16-year-old boy who hasn't, uh, maybe the chubby kid, he hasn't lost the baby fat, um, but is keeping an eye on both of those athletes and seeing, because let's put it this way the the the the younger athlete, the the uh uh the less mature athlete hasn't developed yet, but what's his mind like? Does he have the mind of a fighter that he's going to work really hard, even to, you know, and then you've got the the mature 16-year-old who may find racing comes very easy because he's matured early. Um, so it's that whole biological age, not actual age, that you have to look at. And it's it's one of those things where a big part of like our talent ID camps isn't just watching the athlete, isn't just seeing their power numbers and seeing how well they ride. It's getting to know them. That's why I encourage athletes to come to these camps because you get to work with our coaches for a week, we get to know you. So a lot of it's about personality because you could have kids that are lazy that, you know, I'd rather take a less skilled kid that works his rear end off than a super skilled kid that's lazy. Because those less skilled kids are eventually going to catch up, and now the lazy athlete doesn't know how to work or may not know how to work, or you know, swoop that flitch, swoop that flip that switch. Yeah. So it's it's one of those where you've got to kind of a get to know the athlete. There's like I say, the numbers can tell you one thing. A lot of people say numbers don't lie and they don't, but they don't tell the whole truth. So that's where you've got to kind of we put kids through power tests. You gotta kind of look at those numbers and see where they are, but also understand there is so many different variables in that. Um, again, with their biological age. So it's kind of you're trying to figure out and like look into your crystal wall where the algae is gonna be in five years from now. Um, so I I look at that that's kind of fun. That's kind of because I'm I'm always the I love the underdog that backing in the corner just comes out fighting and scrapping. This kid's not gonna stop until he until he gets what he needs and gets what he wants. Um, so it's fun to watch that. But it is it can be challenging, and you make you make some good choices, you make some not so good choices. But you know, again, nobody has that crystal ball to say this athlete is going to be the and that's one thing we always tell our our athletes at these camps. You have a lot of kids that'll come and say, Oh, I'm a sprinter, I'm a climber. And it's like, no, no, no, no, you're not. You're a cyclist. Don't pigeonhole yourself into one thing or another, because at your age, at that age, they're gonna change so much over the next five, eight years that their body style may change. You know, you may have somebody who thought he was a climber. Now all of a sudden um he puts on a lot of muscle mass because that's just his natural body. That's carrying that muscle mass up a climb, you may not be a climber anymore. Um, so it's kind of don't pigeonhole your tell the athletes pigeonhole themselves into one category. Um, and the other thing we try and talk to them is don't just be cyclists, be athletes. And you know, do other sports because there's so many things that just yes, athleticism carries over on the bike, and vice versa. What you do on a bike can carry over to other sports. Um, so it is a little bit of an art, but I just look at it as trying to try to make good educated decisions, basically, on athletes and not pigeonholing us into oh, he's that kind of athlete or that kind of athlete, being open-minded towards it all.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's great. You know, it reminds me, I I use this quote like probably five times a week, but I had a swim coach when I was younger, um, Norm Havercroft, and uh he's like, Eric, you know, there's there's swimmers and then there's athletes that swim. Right. And uh ultimately, you know, I know which side I want to be on, right? Yep. And I think that's a big difference here for people at that age because that hit me at a very, you know, I was like 10. I was like, oh wow, it's I didn't really understand it probably until I was like 14. But it made a lot of sense. Uh it's good you understood it at 14 because a lot of athletes still don't understand it that age. Yeah, maybe 14, 32, I don't know, somewhere around there. Yeah. Um how is the state of cycling? I mean, obviously, you know, the the press, you know, with you know, the big name man, um, a lot of issues that happen with with cycling. How how is the state of of cycling both both in the US and globally?

I like to think, I like to think we've we've we're turning the page a little bit on that. It's been a while now since since all that took place. Uh we were affected by it as a as a governing body. Our numbers went down. The entire cycling industry limits went down. But I think we've kind of, by the looks of it, we've kind of put a stop to the decline. Um so we've kind of, I think, reached the bottom. And there are things like gravel racing and grand fondos that are bringing the sport back up where more people are riding and and racing or participating in races. Um, so it it has rebounded, I think it's on the rebound now, which is which is nice to see. Um, but the biggest issue right now is road cycling. The numbers aren't what they used to be, and that's a hard one. And whether that's because of the popularity of Grand Fondo, which is on the road, but gravel, gravel type races and cycle cross races and mountain bike races, those are all growing. Um I think that's part of uh you know, just the road side is the toughest side. And I think part of that too is with all the um all the social media, you know, you can't go a week without seeing somebody that was hit by a car on the road. And it gets it gets scary out there for people, and it comes to the point where for some people they don't want to ride on the road anymore. Um now, whether they switch to a different discipline or they stop riding altogether, that you know, I don't have numbers on that. Uh, but I think the state of cycling here is is getting better in the US. It's growing. Um over in Europe, it's a it's a different story. I don't know that there's been a decline in Europe. Um cycling in Europe is is more of a mainstream sport, if you will. You know, we've got our our top four here in the US and over there, obviously, you know, over in in Europe, um they do have, you know, football, soccer is huge. But there's a lot of other sports. Cycling does really well in Europe. Look at that's where all the grand tours are over there. They do really well. All the cremat, the a local Cremets in Belgium, you can get a couple hundred athletes showing up to it, which is the local weekday race. Um, and these are not um these are not your athletes that are just participating. These are athletes that have a very good shot at you know making their way through the ranks and going and being picked up by pro teams along the line. Um so the state of cycling is I think going to start growing again in the US. Um, but over in Europe, I think it's pretty, it's pretty solid.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I wonder too, if if I'm listening to this and I'm you know I'm a cycling. Enthusiast, right? Uh and I'm like, oh, I wonder if I can be a cycling coach. Right. I mean, it kind of makes sense. Like, I mean, it's I I presume it's an affluent sport, right? Because it can be, yeah. I mean, it's not, you might I don't know, like I'm not a cyclist, but my wife is a downhill mountain biker. Her bike is like eight, eight grand. And that's like moderate pricing, right? Plus all the other stuff, like, you know, body armor and plus the all that other stuff. It becomes, you know, it adds up quickly in large chunks. And, you know, I I presume that too, you know, the people who are getting into the sport of cycling, you know, there has to be either some kind of sponsorship or they come from a fluency. And um, so as a coach, it seems like, you know, kind of a a good option, you know, um, to get into a sport where, you know, obviously there's there's some money in it. And, you know, how does one get into it? Like what would be the first steps to be a cycling coach?

Well, typically most of our coaches are former racers and they have a passion for it. Um, and they've raced for a while and they want to get back to the sport, they see an opportunity to maybe make some money off of it by coaching because there is there are so many nuances to cycling that athletes can learn, but if you have a coach, that learning curve is is much uh shorter. So it makes it easier for athletes to move up the ranks to get better faster. Um, but we also here's the thing is as far as coaches, and and when we do our our clinics, we talk to coaches a lot about the business of coaching. Um you ever watch um um I can think of the name of it now, um, the TV show where the people are looking for money. Um Shark Tank. Shark Tank, thank you. Yes, watch Shark Tank. Yeah. When you have somebody that they may not know their numbers great, and all of a sudden they come up with a yes, but I have such a passion for it.

Yeah.

And the camera usually goes to Mark Cuban, who just does one of this. Yeah, I love that show. Yeah. I start with the passion is great, and I love Mark Cuban's response to that because passion will get you so far. Um, you know, if you're not paying your bills and you're trying to be a cycling coach, that passion is going to, after a year or two, and you're like struggling financially, is going to weigh on you, and that passion goes away. You're like, well, I I can't do that. I love this, but I just can't do it anymore. And we lose coaches because they come in and they don't have that business concept that there is, if you're going to be a cycling coach, you have to be prepared. If you want to do it and do it properly and make and make a living off of it, um, you have to have more than just passion, you have to have some business acumen and be able to um run a small business, unless you can grow to a big business, which is great. And some coaches have done that. Um, but it it's always one of those things where that's how they start. And I always caution coaches, you have to be prepared for this. This is not just a passion-driven um it'd be great if it was, because while there is some money in cycling, and and yes, bikes can be super expensive, but you can also get much better deals on bikes as an entry-level athlete. Typically, you're gonna move your bike up, and I could create the argument that a thousand dollar bike can sometimes be just as good, not better, than an eight to ten thousand dollar bike, um, especially if you're just starting. Um, but it's just being prepared that as a coach, um, there there are opportunities for you out there and you can make a living out of it. Um, but you just have to be prepared to. Oh, the sorry, I lost my train of thought. The one thing I was saying going with the price is that even though there is it's more of an affluence sport, if you will, um people don't always see the value in wanting to pay a coach. Yeah, they'll spend eight, ten thousand dollars on a bike, but spending two hundred and fifty dollars a month for coaching so they know how to race that bike and ride that bike a little better, they're sometimes not as open to doing that. So it's kind of, and that's where as a coach, you cringe when when athletes do that because, like, great, you bought all that bike to make you faster. You know, you got your race wheels, you got your aero helmet if you're trying, you got all this aero equipment, um, but you don't know how to train. And that's where you'll see the biggest gains is in the training, not in the equipment. Um, but so to go back to your initial question, coaches typically start as racers. They go in, if they want their license, they come through us. We offer continuum education for them. So we're always trying to make them better coaches. Um, and not only better coaches is how do I train the athlete, but how do I run my business? How do I deal with everything else that is not training? You know, how do I how do we teach somebody skills? What do I do if they've got, you know, if they may need some sport psychology, they may need some nutrition work, um, and trying to teach coaches all the different avenues they can go down to help those athletes.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. So I I uh in one of our, we have an online community called the uh the fitness accelerator, and we have two people in there. One, his name is Ken Andruco. Um he was on the Canadian national team back in the day, right? And then we have Menachem Brody, who you know, um, you know, so kind of like this old school, new school, and it was a funny conversation that I kind of caught on to them having about Ken was like, you know, back in his day, it was just both things, just get on your bike and ride. Right. And now Menachem's like this new wave of coach focusing on strength, technique, you know, um, the technology behind it, you know, AI, like all this stuff. And I'm curious, you know, how have you, in your experience within the industry, how has the cycling coaching profession changed in the training?

Well, I'm sure you've seen the photos of old Tour de France riders who have bottles of beer or wine and cigarettes while they're smoking. Yeah, yeah. Because the theory was it could thin your blood, blood flow is easier, and then you know, smoking opens up your lungs. Well, so long story short, not exactly true. Um, but um was it Ken you were saying is just get on your bike and ride? Yeah. There's a lot of truth to that. And that's where it's, I mean, at its at its basic sim, as at its basic level, it's all about stress. But that said, there are so many other things. Like what Menachem does with mobility and strength is huge because that keeps athletes, that gets athletes prepared, can get the most out of them, um, can help keep them injury free. Um, so there's so much more that we've learned over the years that now takes place. So when you when you look at what what Ken and Ockham are doing, they might be, I don't know if I want to say they're on two ends of the spectrum, but there's justification for both sides of it and and meshing that together. Um, because there are times, yes, you have to be specific with your athlete's workouts, but at the same point, uh, you know, if an athlete, let's say you're prescribed a 10-minute steady state interval, does your body know if you went 10 minutes and 30 seconds? You know, and some coaches will get really some coach, some athletes will get stressed out that, oh, I only went nine and a half minutes. Well, yeah, that 30 seconds is that, you know, what's where okay, that's okay. Um, you know, the the the body doesn't know what the prescribed workout was. As long as we know what the goal of the workout is, it's kind of that just get on your bike and ride, but let's keep the parameters within this level. And you know, there are some coaches that would argue with me, no, it's got to be black and white, uh, but I make the argument coaching is never black and white and should never be black and white. Um, so there is that, because there are times you just have to tell an athlete, just ride your bike, just go go hard. And if you don't understand what um, ask me what the work at is, and if it's supposed to be hard, make your hard stuff hard, make your easy stuff easy. Um, but I do love what Monocham is doing as well. Um, because there's everything has to evolve. And if we and and Monocham is is part of that evolution of cycling, where it's going, uh, what athletes should be doing. Um, and there's you know, that's why there's sports psychologists out there, that's why there's nutritionists out there, that's why there's you know the strength conditioning people out there, all and that's when I don't know whether this was while we're recording or before, that coaches need to have that team available to them. I I know me as a coach, I don't know at all. You know, I'm I know the basics of nutrition, but if I have an athlete that really needs something, I know where I'm gonna send them. Uh, if I have an athlete that needs a sports psychologist, I might be able to talk them, you know, through a certain to a certain point, but that's not my specialty. I'm gonna refer to him to a sports psychologist. So it's that evolution and bringing all those those pieces together to make the athletes better.

Yeah. You know, I feel that a lot of the things that we understand nowadays about energy assistant training has come from cycling. Um, you know, cycling, endurance sports, you know, all of those. And we've adapted them. I mean, even like education I got as a CrossFit coach through James Fischer and OPEX, um, who are actually in the next episode of this show. Um, you know, we a lot of it came from from studying, you know, those those sports. And uh I'm curious to see what kind of technology you guys are are looking at now. I mean, um, you know, heart rate was always a great thing for cycling. It's it's hard to adapt to many other sports, but are you guys looking at HRV? Are you looking at what what else are you guys looking at right now?

Biggest thing, the biggest thing right now is is power, using power meters on the bike. So those numbers don't lie. There's no lag, there's no like heart rate can have a lag. But the thing is power and your power to weight ratio. That can tell a lot about an athlete. Um, I know there are a lot of coaches using AI right now. Um, I haven't gone gone down that path. I've listened to some of them speak. Um, I'm not that knowledgeable in it yet. But I always go back to the power meters that are out there. And there's also um Liomo has this motion-based technology trying to get um proper alignment on the bike with all different trigger points. I don't know if they call them trigger points or different points on the body that you can analyze um the pedal stroke and see if you're losing power in different places, if you've got a discrepancy someplace, you know, and how do we um how do we make changes for the athlete according to using some of this new technology? Um the biggest thing, Eric, for me right now is there's so there's there's a lot of technology out there that it's almost, I don't want to say I don't know overwhelming is the right word, but sometimes coaches almost rely too much on they don't use it as tools, they use it rather in place of you know what's between their two ears and and having conversations with the athletes and talking to the athletes to find out what's going wrong. Um, because like I said earlier, you know, numbers and statistics don't lie, but they don't always tell the whole truth. Right. So that's the biggest thing is that if if the coaches aren't communicating and talking with the athletes to find out what's going on, all this technology is great, but if you're just using that, not talking to the athlete, you're missing a boat. You're missing a huge part of what's actually going on with the athlete. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's really an interesting point about technology and where it's going. And I think HRV is probably the best example because, you know, um, and this could go for an athlete. It could go for you, me, you know, uh, someone who's just, you know, uh a weekend warrior or someone who just has a stressful job, right? And you know, you could go up to someone and be like, hey, how you feeling? I feel good. Yeah, I feel all right, right? Yeah. Oh well, your HRV tells tells me that you feel like shit, that you're stressed out. And they'll be like, what? And then they get anxious and then they they hold back from things that they could be doing, you know, or they make them happy or what it is. So it's it's an interesting thing that time that we're walking into because we're gonna have so much, you know, biofeedback on what we're doing, right? And uh, you know, we can't let it dictate um because we have an amazing ability, you know. There might be some nights that I or you get four hours of sleep, right? But we can override it simply by saying, you know what, I feel great. I feel great. I'm not tired.

Or override it with a little bit of caffeine. Yeah, or a little bit of caffeine. Yeah, yeah.

Just changing your mood, changing your physiology just through your mood, right? So I hope um, you know, people don't become too dependent on it. But I could see, you know, a lot of that, because I talk about a lot of technology on here. I know some of the AI projects that are being done, you know, in the endurance space um in cycling, it's it's really fascinating. Um, you know, I'm I'm curious too, because we mentioned like United States versus Europe, right? How are we at like an Olympic level? Um, and maybe you can give insights into other sports. How are we developing athletes here versus how athletes are getting developed in in other countries, Eastern Bloc, Europe?

You know, us specifically, we're holding the majority of our camps for those athletes that are going to be at that level. They're racing in Europe. We bring them to Europe to race to get and that's that's part of the the biggest, I don't want to say the biggest issue we have, but it goes back to to me, the the best and worst thing that happened that's happened in coaching in the last 20 years is internet-based coaching. Because coaches think a lot of coaches, some of them think that sitting here typing is coaching because they're writing the workouts, but you're missing the whole skill side of it. What's your athlete doing racing? Can they anticipate things? And what we always hear is that we send our athletes over to Europe to race, and boy, they're strong. They've got big engines, but they don't have the skill, they don't have the the race smarts yet. So it's kind of like we're playing catch-up to a lot of European countries at a at a younger age. And you know, when when some of those athletes and European athletes have been riding bikes since they were little kids every single day, and just inherently, because of some of the things they were doing, their the skills they were learning, and they start racing, um they're more advanced in those areas than our athletes are. Um that said, that is why we have the majority of our programs, our road programs, and a lot of mountain bike and cross are over in Europe. We do a lot of racing, a lot of uh a lot of camps in Europe specifically for that. So we get our athletes. Um it's in Europe, it's it's it's more acceptable to be on a bike. I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but um like I was in Utrecht, Netherlands a couple years ago, and the number of bikes to cars was probably 15 and 20 to one.

Wow.

And it was incredible, you know, where they have their roads in this one area at least, that they're the infrastructure is more geared towards cycling than it was cars. And watching the people just riding their towny bikes, you know, on crowded bike paths, where you know you've got the whether it be the guy riding a towny bike and he's got a girl on the on the back, on a back saddle, you know, sitting side saddle, and he's track standing at a stoplight. You know, it's things like that. Those skills that are inherent, we don't have that here. You know, it's unfortunately it's not as acceptable. The cars aren't or people aren't as accepting of cyclists on the road, if you will, here in the US. So it's it's kind of it makes it a challenge, which is why we we do have it over in Europe. That said, um, on the international stage, we still do still do pretty well uh when it comes to world championships and Olympic Games. So we've got um a lot of quality, we've got a lot of good coaches here that are running our programs that have um that have spent a lot of time in Europe or from Europe and they understand the demands of it. So it's uh um we're not we're not far behind a lot of them. Um, but you've got countries like Great Britain, Australia who I would say are a little bit ahead of us. Um and that a lot of that has to do with numbers and funding as well. So, but we're we we hold our own and we've got high aspirations for uh for the Olympic Games.

Yeah, awesome. Awesome. You know, it's it's really interesting you brought up the the cultural factor, right? Of how cycling can be um intertwined in culture. I I spent my 20s in San Francisco, and you know, there's a good amount of cyclists, and this was like the clash between motorists and cyclists, right? It's uh it's something. Like they're it's it's pretty uh it's it's pretty strong. I mean, they I don't know if you're familiar with this thing, but they have this thing in San Francisco called Critical Mass. So I think it's like they pick one Friday out of the month, I believe it's the last Friday of every month, and all cyclists will, I don't know how they do it, is it like a mass email or something like that, but they pick one major thoroughway um in the city and they'll go on a Friday afternoon and they'll all bike down this thoroughway. So they'll freeze traffic, right, for an afternoon. And uh I don't think they're making any friends by doing that. But I've seen some I've visited, I have like in person seen uh someone take a bike and throw it at another person's windshield because that person was trying to push their way through traffic. And I'm like, well, God, you know, this person probably has to get home. Um it's Friday afternoon. Um, and I'm not saying either one, like there is a holes on both sides of this. Like any any percentage of population, right? One out of a hundred is gonna be a jerk. Um but man, you know, that that culture clash is is that anywhere else besides the United States?

Um I mean, I can't it's I can only speak of the places that I've been. Yeah, I've seen it much more accepting. And I've I've you know, I've been to Germany, I've been in the Netherlands, um, I've been to Austria. In those countries, it's more acceptable. Yeah, it's just it's a getting around on your bike is more of a uh a way of life than it is here. It's it's not the norm here, where it may not necessarily be the norm in all those countries, but it's more acceptable in those countries. It's people ride bikes, and that's just okay, and there's a respect for you. And that's that's the thing that you know when we're teaching coaches and talking to cyclists, everything we do with skills is all about safety. Um, and teaching your athletes to be good stewards out on the road means, you know, stopping and stop signs, red lights, not being a not being a dick when you're out on the road. Yeah. Um you know you have to be you have to be assertive to be safe, but you also can't be aggressive. And that's where I think most people, the I think a lot of people lose that. Um the difference between being assertive and aggressive. And it if you're not making friends with cars on the road, and this is what I always tell athletes is that okay, if you're in an act, if you're hit by if if there's an accident, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong. You're going to lose because you're on a bike. If you're bike against a 3,000-pound vehicle, um, I don't care whether you had the right of way or not, you're gonna end up in a in a heap of trouble if you get hit. And you know, it's you want to do everything to avoid it. And you know, and I I've heard from Apple, uh I I can do this because I'm allowed. Well, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I mean, that's and a lot of I think some people have problem understanding. Like I say, it's it's yeah, you may have the right of way. Okay, you want to take it, you better know what that car is gonna do. Yeah, but it it's kind of being you know, you want to be that defensive drive, defensive cyclist, if you will, kind of like a defensive driver, but still communicating with the the people in cars so they know what you're gonna do, so you're predictable. Um and that's yeah, it's kind of very I think it's I think it's quite different in Europe. Let's put it that way.

Yeah, it's cute. I mean, it reminds me of a time uh when I was living in Santa Barbara, California for yeah, I lived there for about eight or almost 10 years. Um and there was always, you know, cycling is pretty popular there. Um especially the weekly. Yeah, it's a great place to ride. I mean, it's beautiful back roads, but there were so many times when I would see you know a group of cyclists riding, you know, four stacks side to side to side. And uh, you know, I would just kind of patiently wait. And I was like, God, I'm starting to get annoyed now. You know, they saw me. Um, but I feel like, you know, that's like unfortunately, that's like the ones that people remember. No one remembers the cool guy or a girl, you know, who's like, oh, waves at you, says, you know, waves by right on the one the one.

thing too is most people don't understand most people in in cars don't understand what it's like to be on a bike so they don't and and they that's okay you know just because they're not used to it you know and that's where abreast in traffic okay not smart um but riding two abreast should be the most you should ride in traffic and that's actually safer on the road uh if you're riding two abreast because that makes the group shorter so the car has less to pass uh which most cars don't understand that they want us all single file so let's say I've got 10 cyclists you know if you take 10 cyclists and you ride them side by side you know that's a much smaller area a much smaller distance that the car has to pass than if you take 10 riders all in a row you know you've gotten now twice as long and usually there's more gaps if you're like that so it's even more than twice as long but but people that are driving cars don't understand that so it's kind of when you're talking to coaches and athletes making them understand that the person in the car might not be thinking like a cyclist because they're not a cyclist. They don't and you can't expect them to be thinking thinking that way. They're just thinking I've got to get around this group and I had and here's a a perfect example is and this this happened to me years ago um used to a group I used to live in Florida with used to do a group ride on the weekends and this was a group ride of probably 50 60 riders and you know Florida's pretty flat so when you're in the Peloton you're moving along at you know 35 miles an hour easy and when you're riding in in roads that that's the speed limit you're going the speed limit so I had to go to traffic school one year for a ticket I got for other reasons. The instructor was talking about cyclists and she said something about how you know I can't pass them when and they're good sometimes they're going the speed limit so I'm like I went um excuse me yeah so if they're going the speed limit why do you need to pass them and she just kind of did a hmm didn't think about that like if we're going the speed because guess what I'm one of those athletes in that group and it's pretty scary when some of the cars try and pass us. We're going the speed limit you know be a little patient. You know you don't have to always go faster than the speed limit. And she kind of looked at me she was kind of like yeah you're right if you're going the speed limit I shouldn't have to pass you. So it was kind of but it's in and my my point being is that people in cars aren't thinking like that. They're thinking the first thought is adversary almost and it's a group of cyclists they're taking up the road um and again when you have a group of 50 60 cyclists trying to ride side by side that and and again the roads we were riding on in Florida weren't heavily traveled roads. We pick routes that you know with low traffic um it just but but people in most people in cars aren't thinking like cyclists which and you can't expect them to and and so it but it's making sure that as cyclists and athletes that you understand that they're not thinking like you so which is okay.

Yeah that's what a great point. I mean inevitably for the growth of the sport you have to get more people on bikes right and in order to do that people have to feel safe to be on the bike right and you know I always think I think subconsciously if I'm driving I probably like if I see a group of cyclists I'm my first thought is like okay I got to get around these people right but never I think like and I I'm always I because I also I do you know I've done some cycling I'm very very basic but I do like road cycling every once in a while um and it's scary right it can be scary very scary and so I try to do it in in like a calm like manner when I do but sometimes I wonder like do I even like you're right do I even need to pass them like what's the speed limit here? Maybe I could just be cool going the speed limit for five minutes of my life right but we're in such such a damn hurry all the time to get to where we're going uh I think that's really is there any cities in the United States um you know I was in Victoria British Columbia up on Vancouver Island and they've really gone a long way of making that a a bicycle friendly city.

You know is there any cities within the United States that you think we could emulate for for that type of yeah I mean there's there's a number that I become more bike friendly like Seattle is I haven't spent a lot of time in Seattle but it's supposedly a lot more bike friendly because a lot of people do bike um Boulder is one that is super bike friendly. Trying to think Idaho like Boise Idaho is supposedly that's where the like the Idaho stop comes from where it's actually in the state of Idaho it's legal to treat a stop sign as a yield sign. Which and that's another area that people don't understand. Cyclists depending upon what's happening at an intersection it's sometimes better for them to roll to treat a stop sign as a yield sign. It's actually safer um and it keeps traffic flowing faster because stopping and starting on a bike is a lot slower than stopping and starting in a car. Sure. But then again people just see cyclists that will roll through stop signs and they think the guy's guy or gal is being a jerk they're not obeying the law but again it's a safety thing where you know you have to weigh what's going on there and not you know not blowing right through it, treating it as a yield sign. But getting back to your other question uh there are other areas it's I'd have to go back and I don't know of any others in those that have become I mean this the springs here Colorado Springs has become more bike friendly a lot of cities are becoming more bike friendly because they're having the bike share options now um where you can just get on a one of their county bikes and park it anywhere and more bike lanes. But a lot of time what unfortunately I think what happens and and this is just my opinion on on city infrastructure is that bike lanes and things like that are afterthoughts. After new communities are built then it's oh let's put in a bike lane where that can sometimes do just the opposite like if you take uh they had a road they have some roads here in the springs that were you know two and two so four lane road where all of a sudden now it's now a two-lane road because one is a bike lane and it takes up the whole lane so it's I'm not sure that's better because now you're looking at what have we just done to all the people in cars who I used to have two lanes now because there's a bike lane and guess what there's nobody in the bike lane it's now one lane so it's kind of one of the things like it's great to have the bike lanes but it's also what is that doing perception wise you know a lot less cyclists here than drivers. So it's kind of is it is it the is it a catch 22? It's great to have them but actually working against us I don't know I don't know the answer to that. Yeah but there are some cities out there who've done some pretty good work and then like I say I think Seattle's one boulder is another one um that have that have done and Boys Ida have done a pretty good job with their infrastructure.

Yeah well you know one of the reasons I'm in Montana is there's just too many damn people in those places. You know and uh I think that's ultimately kind of what what uh what we're facing here is we just have we have a lot of human beings uh out there especially in states like California Colorado Oregon you know I'm I'm partial to the West Coast because that's what I know but the East Coast is the same. So you know moving forward is there is there anything big coming down the pipe for USA cycling anything we should be uh excited or aware of for for you guys yeah well we're coming into uh next year's Olympic year that's right so we love Olympic years.

Yeah we yeah so so do we um the coolest thing about this Olympic year is this for the first time uh I believe it's first time ever cycling is the only sport that will have a medal competition every single day of the Olympics. Cool um because if you if you if you think about the games swimming is typically a week gymnastics is a week um so there but we have you know over the however many 14-15 days of the Games every single day there will be an Olympic medal handed out in cycling and that's because of the new BMX disciplines uh BMX came in the Olympic Games um two Olympics ago uh BMX racing came in now this year we have um the urban BMX which is um more like trials where they're thinking there's your skate park you're doing think of X games you're doing tricks on the bike all within uh confined area uh so we're actually we have very high aspirations for the Olympic games this year and um we're looking to um win seven medals which would be the highest we've won uh except for LA games which were boycotted uh so it it it should be interesting and that a lot of that has to do with the new BMX disciplines like this year in in urban cross and um urban bmx we won um all three of the medals in the women's and then we won gold in uh in the men's so if we can come close to duplicating that at the Olympic Games that's four medals right there just in one discipline you know last Olympic games we won a gold in men's BMX uh racing and uh I would at least win at least one silver in uh in women's BMX racing uh and then we won time trial medals so we've got some pretty high aspirations this year excuse me so uh it should be it should be a pretty good pretty good game for us we're hoping it's a pretty good game for us yeah awesome awesome man well kevin um where do people find find out more about you is there a place they can get in touch with you yeah um usacycling.org and just go to the uh the coaches section um that's where they can find anything on coaching education um our talent ID camps are all under our our events portion of that of our website um but uh if they want to reach out to me um definitely in the coaching section of the website any you know coaches at usacycling.org is is the email that comes directly to me so anybody can use that um but yeah any questions or thoughts like that that people have send them my way awesome awesome well Kevin thanks for coming on man it's been a great learning experience for me and I hope you know we educated the fitness community a little bit more on the world of cycling and uh maybe we piqued some people's interest too to get in into coaching.

Perfect I appreciate it thanks for having me Eric yeah yeah my pleasure hey fitness fans don't leave yet it's your host Eric Malzone and I have a quick favor to ask actually three favors so number one if you're a fan of our show I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes please and subscribe to our show. Please please please it means so much to us it's so important and then give us a favorable review. We would really really appreciate it and uh I can tell you how much it means it helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us. And when we put a lot of work into these episodes uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes but thank you so much for listening. It means so much and uh if you have any questions please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric ERIC at fitnessmarketingalliance dot com