The Limiting Factor - Fergus Connolly

That's really, really impressive. That's what makes the great athletes great. And that's why my definition definition of a great uh athlete or coach is somebody who wins continuously at a high level because that's showing that they're adapting. That comes from an authenticity, a humility, a vulnerability to be able to keep doing that. And that's rare. Rare in business and in the sport.

What's up, fitness fans? Welcome back to the Future Fitness Podcast and Interview Series. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and this is episode number 146. I talked to Fergus Conley. What a cool cat. I really enjoyed this conversation. And uh, so who who is Fergus, right? So Fergus has been around for a while. He's been in the industry, he's done a lot of things. He's uh an author of multiple books. I think the most recent one he has is 59 lessons, working with the world's greatest coaches, athletes, and special forces. Uh he's worked with a lot of pro teams, um, just like the title says, a lot of special operators, a lot of different things. And what does he do? And you know, when we talked about it, I asked him in the interview. I think him and I have similar challenges when we get asked that question. What do you do? And I think what we kind of pulled out of it is he solves problems. And he solves problems due to a very unique mindset that he has and a perspective due to all the experience across all the different things that he's done in his life. And it's really cool. Uh, we talked about how to find the limiting factor in any given circumstance and how that limiting factor is often quite different than what we may assume it is. So, really interesting. We've got a lot of great topics in here. We talked a little bit about 49er football, uh, which is one of my favorite things to talk about. Uh, he used to work for the 49ers. So, yeah, great, great insights, really interesting cat. Uh, got him to agree to come on to another one. Uh, I love doing that on air. Just put him on the hot seats. So it's awesome. And this episode, uh, well, a couple things. Actually, before I get to the sponsor, um, hope you check out the uh fresh new look, got a fresh new logo, um, whole new, I guess, branding for the podcast. So let me know what you think and uh love to hear from you. And if you haven't yet, please go over to iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube and subscribe and uh leave us a nice review if you can, and I'll read it on air. So this episode is brought to you by Level Five Mentors. So if you go to L-E-V-E-L five mentors.com, you'll find out more. And what Level 5 Mentors do, um, it's me and my colleague Ken. We help entrepreneurs. We help entrepreneurs achieve their highest levels of freedom in time, money, relationships, health, and freedom. Isn't that what it's all about? Uh, and that's what we do. And we've been doing it for a while, but now we're formal. Uh, we have a whole website and everything, and we're doing it now. We actually put together a whole assessment. So if you're wondering, if you're in the fitness industry, there's a really good chance you're an entrepreneur, just because it's entrepreneurial by nature, right? Uh, there's no given track that you graduate college with a specific education, you're gonna have to just you know get into a corporate environment and go. It just doesn't happen like that very often. There are those occasions, but you have to be entrepreneurial, you have to be figuring out things. And most of the time you get into it because you want to help people, but maybe you're not, you are sacrificing all those other areas of your life, your health, your finances, all that. So if you go to our website right in the front there, levelfive mentors.com, that's five, the digit five, uh, you'll find an assessment. Take the assessment, see how you're doing in all those different categories. Uh, it'll provide a lot of insight. It's uh some deep thought, give it a little bit of time, but you'll enjoy it. It's a great process, and whatever comes out of it, you'll be better off for doing it. So go to levelfive mentors.com, check it out. Without further ado, let's get into it. It's episode number one four six with my guy, Fergus Connolly. Enjoy the show. We're live. Fergus, welcome.

Thank you very much for having me.

Yeah, man. Uh, and I'm gonna preface this as I do with many of my podcasts saying that you guys just missed the best conversation for the last 20 minutes that we didn't record. And uh I'm super excited to have you, man. Big, big out uh shout out to Taylor Johnson um for referring you over and uh what what a talent you are, man. So let's let's get people who don't know you um let's get them up to speed. But who are you? Give us a little bit of your background story.

Well, it it'll become apparent that uh uh I'm Irish uh to start with, so I'll try and speak a little bit slower for for everyone. But um, yeah, look, I got involved in sport and human performance by by accident. Like I grew up in Ireland, uh loved sport, but I never saw a career in sport or in professional sport because you know there's so few jobs. So my father was a construction studies and woodwork, woodworking teacher, and that's what I went to university and became a woodworking teacher. But while I was there, you know, I found the kinesiology, the sports science books, and this allowed me to read and try and get better at playing my own sports, and and uh then what I started to do is I would save any money I had, email or write a letter to, and this was way back again at the beginning of the internet. You have to go into you know into the university and find computers that were connected, not all were. And I would email the most famous coaches I could. Some would get back to me and I would say, Listen, can I come and pay you to come and just observe? I'm just interested, just to just want to learn. And I was doing that while I was at university. Um, people used to mistake me for being a sports science student. I spent that much time in that section. I stayed and did a master's in manufacturing and I did a PhD in computer-based optimization in the manufacturing space. And to be quite honest, it just allowed me to stay at university, save money and go and travel and visit coaches. And uh uh when I finished university, I went teaching. And but I would I still continued to go and visit coaches all around the world, whether it was down to try and learn from the all blacks in New Zealand or go to Canada to learn from sprint coaches. I did it was just a passion. And uh visiting one soccer club in England shortly afterwards, they were changing staff and they said, Look, you know, we we've lost our sports science guy here. We've just hired a new strength coach, he knows you and uh you know he knows that you're pretty knowledgeable. Would you be interested in starting with us? And the salary was low. I took a career break, and 15 years later, I still haven't gone back to teaching. And I've just been fortunate to work across uh so many different groups, whether it's you know, NFL, uh, international rugby, Premier League. And I just have I'm just following a passion for helping people improve performance and and largely in team sports. I worked a little bit with a few individuals, some some boxers. Um, but mostly just how do you get a team of people to to win and achieve at something? And that's that's just my my passion. That's just my passion. Like we like we were talking about earlier. I still haven't got it figured out. I'm just trying to I'm still on a career break from teaching.

Yeah.

Just a 15-year career break. Uh that that is so when you work with these teams, are you like what what what's the role that you play? You mentioned sports science, but also sounds like you do a lot of team dynamics and um and you know, the mental game behind it. Is it is it all that, or like how how do you interact with the teams, I guess?

Yeah, so so when I when I started, I thought, you know, most of the writings, as you know, this is so I'm 42 now. I know I look far younger. I'm glad this is a podcast, so nobody can say I'm lying. But when I started, as you as as you know, like most of the information out there was on strength training, and then it started to become supplements and nutrition, and um, then there was it started to be so when I started, I thought the key was strength and conditioning, and I tried to read everything I could, and then I realized, okay, you know, the guys that I'm working with and the strength staff we're working with, there's a little bit more, it must be a little bit about nutrition as well, then you know, supplements, and so I kept trying to follow and chase what the limiting factor was. So for me, it is I've tried to study, I've tried to I fix problems, and that's really it. I I don't pigeonhole myself into anything other than trying trying to solve problems. And some teams you go to, it is strength, some teams it's speech, some teams it is team dynamics, but more and more, particularly in the US, you find that um there's some wonderful strength coaches, some great supplement programs, but a lot of the limiting factors are um culture, team dynamics, psychology, understanding people's true purpose, identity, so that they can have a sustained career in whether not just in sport, but in in life and in their industry.

You said some really interesting stuff. And I think you know, when we're getting to know each other a little bit better pre-recording, uh, you asked me what I do, and I didn't really have a good answer. I asked you what you did. You're like, well, you know, not a really solid. Like I put it by this I go across the border to Canada all the time.

Yeah.

You know, I give them my passport and they always ask me what I do. And I'm like, I always hesitate. They're like, so what do you do? I'm like, I and it's always I'm like finally I say I consult, right? Because it's the easiest thing to because if I if I waver too much and I change, they're like, okay, buddy, why don't you pull over and let's talk a little bit more, right? Um I think you know what you mentioned in there is you look for the limiting factors, right? You look for problems to be solved, you look for um those things, because that's sometimes I think that's a huge gift uh to be able to see or have the ability to dive in and see, okay, well, here's like symptoms of what's going on, right? The team's not winning.

Yes.

Then walk us through like, do you have a thought pattern or systems or anything that when you look at like overall, because I'd imagine if a team calls you, it's because they're not seeing success. Or something else.

Yeah, so two examples. One one is actually in the in the corporate sector. I um CEO called me and they had issues with um employees leaving, kind of taking them by surprise. So their their issue was trying to identify why is that happening and what's uh is there a cultural issue here or is this a one-off? And it became pretty apparent it was greater than that. So it was helping them identify the difference between leadership and management, uh, identifying what culture truly was and creating um an environment where they could, everybody could feel part of it. So it in many cases, particularly in the corporate sector, um and sometimes in sport, but particularly in the corporate sector, it's not the technical knowledge is the limiting factor, it's something else. In sport, um, you know, it was interesting. Uh about 18 months ago, I had a call from two performance directors at two pro teams, and they wanted help, and they specifically wanted me to mentor them. And I said, okay, uh, yeah, let's let's do this. And I sent them a list of like different topics that based around like energy systems, monitoring, tracking. And each of them came back and said, No, no, it's not on the technical side, we've got a pretty good hand, we would love your input in that. But it's on the personnel side, it's on managing issues, it's the soft skills, and so more and more people are becoming aware of and becoming better able to identify their challenges. And um, but you never assume that the person knows exactly the problem that they're facing. Sometimes they are identifying the symptom, so people leaving, for example, or having conflict and staff, but helping them identify the problem is the first thing, and perhaps uh helping them become aware of it, and then helping uh provide them with tools to slowly solve that problem and correct it in the best way, again, with the best outcome, which is to be successful and to win, and truly actually to dominate in their space.

Yeah. Can we maybe run us through like a really good example of that? Because I think that's really key. And most people, um, you know, like let's let's just use the fitness industry. Uh almost all the time, everyone thinks they need lead generation. Right? Well, I just need more leads. Okay, maybe you do. Maybe you don't. That's usually a symptom of something else that's going on. Like, why are you not retaining your clients? Why aren't they not referring other people? Right? Why, like, what is your staff not communicating? Like, it's all these factors, and you really have to start digging in. But as soon as I hear lead generation, I'm like, okay, well, there's something else. And I have a feeling you've had more than one of those type of examples.

No, that that's that's brilliant. That's exactly how it happens. So you come to me and you say, you know, I've got an issue with lead generation. My first answer is always, yes, okay, let's uh let's talk about that. I never say no, because even though that's what's going through my head, or I'm going, I highly doubt that. Because you could be right, but it's also okay, let's not uh create a conflict or a roadblock straightaway. Okay, maybe it's lead generation. Let me um, you know, let's let's talk this through. And you slowly, you know, sometimes people maybe looking at it from the outside go, well, you're not providing an answer here, but that's not what I see the role as. Uh for me, it's better in the long run for your client to be the one that actually says, you know what, Fergus, as we go through this, you know, maybe I don't I don't think it's lead generation actually. Maybe if we retain more of our clients and you you're smiling in your mind, but it's better for them, like you could come in and be very smart and say, no, it's not lead generation, you've got to retain clients, you've got to improve communication and your demeanor and your ergonomics of flow and everything. Yeah, you could do that, but that's not teaching a man to fish, that's just giving them fish. And it's if your job as a consultant in performance is actually to make yourself irrelevant, it's to upskill the people uh who you're supporting so that they don't need you. That's really your true um you know purpose and and role, you know, as somebody who's helping people solve problems is to be able to come in, uh plant seeds so that they learn, learn how to improve, and then you just slowly disappear into the background. But you're always there if they need that if they need you.

Yeah. Well, give give us an example if you can. Give us something where maybe uh, you know, if you know, I don't know how much you can share about your clients or your experience, but maybe something where a client came to you from one particular problem and then you uncovered something else completely different.

Yeah, so like I mean, one of like a and this happens more often than I guess we'd like to admit, but I'm having an issue with uh one or two uh staff members. They're not working with me, uh, they're not communicating, they're undermining me. Okay, uh let's talk this through. You know, how how did you um how did did you hire them or did you inherit them? Did you inherit them? Okay, well, and then the process that I'm trying to get uh the person to go through is ultimately to put themselves in that person's shoes and identify the fears and needs of the person that appears to be causing them issues and to understand their insecurities and the threats that they see. And then by helping remove those, so you've got somebody who's um you know doesn't seem to be communicating. Well, why are they not communicating? Is it a case that they are undermining you, or are you reading too much into this? Like, are you at a point emotionally where you're just a little bit weak because of everything else that's going on and the pressures we have, you're reading too much into this, and you're you know, and being able to say, listen, you in my opinion, like eventually you have to perhaps you know drop hard knowledge and say, Look, I really think you're overreacting. I hate doing it when it comes to it, but you're overreacting, you're reading this wrong, um, you're misinterpreting, but at the same time, you need to really focus on the threat that the staff member feels, which is uh, for example, their contract's up at the end of the year and you haven't told them anything, and they need to know. Now they may need they may not need to have a contract, but you need to have a conversation with them. And it may be a case where you say, Listen, whatever happens, you will have a job next year because I'm gonna help you. It may not be here, but I'm gonna support you and I want to see you develop. Or it may be a case where you have a staff member who you feel is causing you challenges at work, but it's because they want to progress up another level, which is on your level. So being able to sit down with them and say, What do you want personally in your life? Well, I want to be a head of strength, head strength coach. Okay, well, I'm the head strength coach here, but what I'm gonna do is you and I are gonna sit down once every two weeks. I'm gonna explain to you what I believe the characteristics and the qualities that are needed, and you're gonna tell me which ones you have, which ones you don't have. I'm gonna help you get these other ones. So when the time is right, when you leave here, when you move on, or if I move on, you're gonna be a far better head strength coach than I am. So as it that's and uh it really comes back to the most important word for me all almost always is authenticity. Just be authentic and be open and honest. Uh, you know, that'll lead you through little moments of vulnerability, but it's all good if we have a clear vision and we're just being authentic with one another.

Yeah, yeah, it's uh it kind of smells a little bit like good old-fashioned empathy as well.

Yes, not sympathy, but empathy. Yeah, it's just uh, you know, the word's a ruthless enough place without having to, you know, to have it at work. So, you know, if you can develop that trusting relationship where you want, I've said it before, you you want people to come and want to hire your staff because you're developing them that well, but they want to stay because they feel uh secure, happy, and and they enjoy sharing in the vision that you've outlined for everybody.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, man. You know, I I think um, you know, a slight segue to give people more background on you is that one of the um, you know, someone visits your website or receives your book, it's it's very obvious that you work with a large amount of people, right? Um, I mean, it's not just fitness professional sports teams, but you also work with, you know, military operators, um, all kinds of different things. Like give us some background. Like, what is your how did that happen? How did you start to like what are who do you work with overall? First, let's start there and then I'll dig in.

Yeah, like I mean it's largely been with professional sport. Um, you know, yes, I've I've done a little bit with high school and and and some other groups, and I and I actually love doing that, but I've really just through accident worked on on the elite end and professional sports, whether it was with you know the 49ers or with Liverpool Football Club or you know Welsh Rugby, um, and then work with some of the uh yeah special operations groups. And the my my area or my interest is again, like I said, how do I get a group of people to achieve an outcome in the best possible way? Now you can do that uh very easily uh in in the short term, but long term to develop a sustainable success, which is my key focus. How do you develop sustainable success? That takes um a lot of consideration and a completely different approach. You know, I I said it before, anybody could go and take over any professional team, drive it hard for three years and be successful. But how do you build a dynasty? What does that consist of? How do you dominate the sport? Uh, how do you create something that's truly special? And the, you know, just the it's not necessarily, I think it's just some of the solutions and some of the insights that I've been able to gain. Uh you know, people in the tactical community have found of interest and they've approached me and and asked me for you know insight guidance support because there are a lot of similarities there, and particularly again with this long-term vision of developing the person, which is the foundation for developing you know somebody who can operate, and then at the third level is how do you operate in extreme environments for short periods of time? Um, and it's identifying the principles behind behind that. Because it, you know, if you're even if you're running a gym, you're running a business, to build something sustainable, you've got to look out for the person first. You know, the the professional or even your client who comes in. Yes, you you you're working with a client, but long term it's about the person. People work with people that who care about them, who show an interest. You don't have and that's you mentioned the word empathy. By demonstrating empathy, that's an example of it. Not sympathy, but empathy, developing that relationship. And when you've got that established, then you can help people through you know difficult times, um, you know, as as they're as you're working with them, or to perform again in those extreme circumstances or for short periods of time. But it it's still it always comes back. This is a people business. Winning is a people business, being successful is a people business, first and foremost.

Yeah. You know, I've had there is a period of time where I read a lot of um, you know, books by great coaches, you know, the Walshes and you know, all those people, and there was always that common factor is like they they had rules that they, you know, philosophies and principles that they lived by, right? But it was all dynamically focused at people and their needs, you know. Um my god, the John, uh the great UCLA basketball coach, uh yeah, like his principles for life and success are are incredible, but it was all about the players, right? And developing them as men, right?

Um and it was Yeah, and I I and it's it's interesting. I just I knew you were gonna bring up Bill Watch at some stage, of course.

Um I'm shocked I haven't dove more into 49ers football yet, but maybe we'll get there.

Well, what what's what's really interesting, and I think um uh I think it's important as well that Eddie Eddie Debartlow, when you speak to the older players and uh Niners players, the reverence in which they hold Bill Watch is is obvious. But Eddie D'Bartlow's name is also mentioned, you know. It and uh and even you know, Al Davis, like I mean, the the stories about Al Davis, what he did for former Raiders players, people who are ill, even um, you know, and and the stories are are there with Eddie Debartlow as well, you know, uh partners, wives uh leaving hospital, going to pay the bill, and it's already been paid for, stuff like that. That's those stories, um they're not stories, those uh actions are critical. And people think, you know, they go, well, you know, that's some that's for a person who is never going to play again, they're retired, they're gone. But uh when I was uh with one military group a long time ago, I'll never forget he was the the officer was telling me a story about how he would make it very clear to his guys that when they were going on this operation, no matter what state you come back in, I would have the best care, best medics, best surgeons for you when you come back in. And he he was saying, that's my duty, but also I have to demonstrate that for the next generation coming through. I just can't pay lip service because if I don't do that for the current guys, the guys who've gone before, who's gonna put their life on the line? Now, on a far more insignificant level, when it comes to business, it comes to sport, if you don't look after those people and maintain relationships with those who've gone before, everybody sees that, you know. So, and it's again that's looking at it superficially. But if you do that authentically, then you're creating something special that people want to be part of, and they'll do it for each other. And that's where you make a difference in in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. Out of curiosity, there's I mean, we there's all these people who have written great books, right? Um, you know, Wooden Walsh, um, a lot of the names to borrow like a lot of these people are. Is there anybody in the current environment of sport or organizations that you think exemplify those type of qualities? It's like who who's doing it now, I guess is my question.

Well, I think Popovich has a you know, the stories that I've heard. I've not met, I've not met him, but Greg Popovich obviously has, you know, there's some incredible stories about him as a person. Uh and I actually the guy who and this is probably gonna surprise a lot of people, but you know, I've heard some wonderful stories about Nick Saban, about him as a person looking after people, and that may not be the impression that that you get of him. Um, you know, and that's something I think that also uh is interesting when you work at in professional sport, the images portrayed of some people publicly is very different to them to them personally, good and bad. Um, but when you when you speak to players and you hear about how they mention uh you know the Saban's, the Dabo Sweeneys, people like that, uh it's very, very impressive and it's very uh it's very encouraging because uh the role of sport originally and still is is to help develop young people for for life. And we learn lessons in sport as kids that help us become resilient and be successful in whatever path. It's not to prepare us for the NFL or the NBA. And in society, sport you know has a role in in terms of health, mental welfare, and teaching us how to overcome, strive. And we I think sometimes sometimes that becomes confused with the entertainment business, which is NFL, NBA, college football. That's the entertainment business. So it's understanding and just reminding ourselves of the lessons that sport teaches us and how that makes us better people. And the other great thing about you know sport, health, and wellness is we got to sweat and suffer with groups of people. You can do it on your own, but learning to work with other people, you could go through a profound suffering or uh momentarily with someone, creates a bond that's uh that's pretty special. And those are the lessons we learn. And sometimes it's good to be reminded of of those things.

Yeah, yeah, it is. And and as you're talking, I'm I'm thinking about um, you know, my my high school water polo experience was one of a kind. I mean, Larry Rogers, who is our coach um down in Bellerman in San Jose, he's he's no longer coaching, but he uh, if you're listening, coach, hello. Uh he ran a notoriously grueling program. Like our Hell Week, you know, prior was you know, double days. First every year did I couldn't walk, you know, between practice. Like I just had all I did was sleep and eat and go to practice, and that was it. And and some of my best friends in life are from my high school water polo team. I'm 42, I'm the same age you are. So do the math. Like I graduated in 95, right? Still talk to these people. We're still bonded every time we see each other. Um it's like we're not, there's no time that went in between. It's just like a quick catch up. Hey, how are things going? Wife, kids, great, awesome. Check. All right, you know, let's let's go do childish things again. Um and then I noticed one of the things that first struck me about CrossFit when I first started it was that community suffering.

Yeah.

Right. That I think really drew people in and started building these communities um around. And I think that's an that's something people people talk about community. Well, what what was it about CrossFit that means it's you know makes it so strong? Well, it's a community. We all learned that. But yeah, but what bonded the community, and I have to think the shared suffering was a huge component of that, right? Because you you're you're huffing, you're breathing, you don't want to finish, you just want to quit. And then you look at you know the person next to you and they're going through the same thing and they don't want to quit either. But you know, they so you keep going together. And I think that's the beauty of that shared suffering. And I think it's something that is is yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and I, you know, people people knock CrossFit, people knock so many different things, but but they do it on an emotional level without pausing to ask those questions about like CrossFit, why was it so successful? Why is it so successful? And there CrossFit has a lot of great things, and that is one of them. And I think I go back to it. Uh, I think there's an authenticity when you are on your knees and you're bare and you're broken momentarily in front of everybody else, but you're just being authentic and vulnerable. I think that's uh an incredibly powerful moment because that's when you are stripped back to uh, you know, you you're not your social media persona, you're not an emoji, you are there in flesh and sweat and sometimes blood, and you're just and you're there open with everybody, and that's there is something important about that. And I and again, you know, there are lots of different examples of where that is important, but it's it's important as well when you're trying to create a team culture um to celebrate the wins and losses as a group, so because that um also removes uh all those other trappings, and you're there at your momentarily at who you are authentically, and you're able to share in those moments. Sharing in those profound, I'm gonna use the word spiritual, but very, very lightly in those profound moments creates like a small spiritual bond, which again, like I mean, you can call on later on in life, and I um it's something that we often uh overlook, particularly in sport. We skip over the winds far too quickly.

Yeah. And in those moments, those raw, pure moments of of suffering, and it no one cares what car you drive. No one cares if you're a doctor or if you're, you know, a you know, a barista, right? No one cares, right? Because everyone's at the same level at that given point in time. And I think that's something that's really cool too, because you know, we live in such a society of you know, people are at levels, right? I mean, and social media is making it a thousand times worse of you know, everyone's comparing each other to everyone else. And we talked about another podcast, no one compares down, everyone compares up, right? You're always comparing to some people who have more or seemingly more. And I think that's a cool thing, too, is you can just get to that raw human thing. I think it's one of the things that you look at like uh adventure racing, Spartan racing, it's all the same. You know, it's like this break from you know what the the societal standards that we're always trying to live up to. It's just a break. And I think that's really interesting to me.

Yeah, and we so if you look at um evolution society on on one level, we live now in a far more stimulated environment. So we have our phones, we have our laptops, we have artificial light, we have sugar, coffee, we have so many stimulants, um, and being stimulated in so many different ways. What CrossFit and Spartan and and you know all of these other activities do is they hit a reset button so hard that they shut all of those down for a moment and allow you to recover mentally. They short circuit. Now they cause obviously they bring in a stress, which you've got to recover from, but for that moment in time, they shut everything down, which um our ancestors, and I'm not even talking, I'm talking a generation or two ago. You we didn't have to deal with we had far more downtime, and that's what that does. It strips things, it's it hits a it's like that restart button uh on the old PCs that we used to have. When you got the blue screen, you'd know what to do. Well, just hit the restart, reset button. That's what that does. It short circuits your nervous system to such a degree that you're exhausted, and you're exhausted for the next 90 minutes afterwards as your body's slowly starting to reboot, and then shortly afterwards you're back into the stresses of life. But it brings you, you cannot worry about anything else for for that 60 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's so true. If you know, depending on who you are, if you're trying to put 225 pounds overhead, right? Uh you're not thinking about deadlines for work.

No.

You're just thinking about it.

No, and if you do, that's where you're on the greatest risk of injury. Yeah. And the other really interesting thing, um, and I was asked about this recently, is when we look at coaching kids, um, a large amount of coaching that happens today is actually undoing instinct and intuition in kids because we teach and overcoach them too much. If you um can find any kids playing on a street now and go and watch them and just observe them, they are LeBron James or they are Cristiano Ronaldo or they're Tom Brady. They're in that moment and they're just playing among themselves. And in that moment, they've got all of this emotional load. Like they're playing in front of millions of people on TV. Uh, they're there, they're present. And as they are playing the game and learning the skills, the richness of that experience is developing their skill. Now, years later, those kids are going to end up in a college program being drilled with cones and being told what to think and whatever, and it's completely different. They don't get that ability uh to create that artificial environment. So go back to go back to CrossFit or to a gym where you've got 225, you're trying to get overhead, like you're in that moment and you are there, and that you cannot think about anything else. Uh, and that's what's so beautiful about going through those moments of extreme stress and pressure and being in that in that moment.

Yeah, yeah, it is cool. Makes me want to go do something really hard today.

The other interesting thing is because it's just when you're speaking about it reminded me, you know, I've been involved in teams where we're going into a game and you're arguing with the medical team about this guy shouldn't play, or this guy's able to play, or this guy can play for 30 minutes, no, he can play for 40 minutes, or you you know, you've a disagreement with the strength coach about speed or whatever. You come in after a win, you go and hug the nearest guy, doesn't care, doesn't matter whether you've had an argument with him before or after, in that moment, in that moment, you are bonding over a win, over that shared suffering, uh, and everything is about winning together.

Yeah. Ah, what a great message, man. So I I want to get I want to touch uh on this topic because I think it's really important too. And, you know, um, especially in, you know, fitness industry or health industry, when people really get in a lane, right? Super specialized, right? And you know where I'm going with this. You know, they just get in the lane, they're like, I'm gonna learn about this topic, and I'm gonna stand become an expert on this, you know. Um, I don't know, you know, lower back pain for cyclists, right? Like that's my lane. You took a very different approach, whether it was intentional or unintentional. You have you have learned about so many different things in different industries, different fields of of sport and and health. How tell me about that kind of journey and and how you gain knowledge from what are all the things that you you do?

I just I just want to help good people do great things. And for me, it's just about trying to solve the problem. So, you know, if I I get called by a soccer team, I go in, or I get called by an NBA team and I go in and and they say we've you know we're having a challenge with finishing late and late in the game. You know, when you ask them, what's the problem? Well, we fade late in the game. Okay, if I go in and I just look at it through the lens of fitness, I'm gonna come up with a fitness solution. But the actual solution may be tactical and technical development, skill development and skill proficiency early in the game that's costing them so much energy and they can't finish strong. It might not be a fitness issue. And I see that so many times. That's just one example. And in some cases, um, you know, coaches think, well, a player's not fast. But when you watch the player play, they're fast, or when you test them, they're very fast, but they're not reading the game well. So all of this time that they're spending on working on speed or strength or whatever it is, or it may be a case, it may be a cultural issue, it may be that there's not enough trust among the team, or it may be, well, we're not we our players are not returning from injury fast enough. But when you go and you spend time and you audit and you look at it, it's the players just don't want to play. They're stepping out, they're being solved. So it's it's it's it's come about. I've never had a plan, it's come about through trying to solve problems. But the biggest mistake I think that many organizations make today is not solving the problem, they're not identifying the right problem to begin with, they're not asking the right questions. And in order to do that, you need to bring with you a breath of awareness, not necessarily expertise, but a breath of awareness to be able to identify what the potent what the real problem is, and then you it's like the keys in a piano. Which keys are you going to press and in what sequence to solve that problem? And that's where you know uh my good friend David Epstein's book, Range, we're speaking about it. You know, he's he he's drawn on uh he's become aware of that. And you know, David, there are two things I find remarkable about him. One is that he is able to identify these areas before others are, but secondly, it's his ability to write about something in a way that's not extremist and still produce a wonderful text. Because if you remember his first book, Sports Gene, before that, there were about four or five books written up about the 10,000-hour rule, and they all said, you know, adamantly, it's about spending as much time as possible to become a specialist. Well, he he wrote the sports gene, which brought a balance to the argument, which is the one I agree with. Genetics are important, nurture's important. It's a combination of having the right genetics and the 10,000-hour rule, and it's about 10,000 hours of quality, or it could be much less. That's what he's very, very good at doing. I think with range, what he has brought is he's not saying that you shouldn't specialize, he's saying that specializing with a breadth of knowledge and an awareness and a context is what allows you to uh become more adaptable over time so that you can uh create the best environment for your specialization to improve. So it's not that you should try and learn everything, it's by being aware of the things adjacent to your skill set, now you can uh become a force multiplier. And so in the fitness industry, for example, and this is something I learned uh and used it in in Pro Sport, it doesn't matter how good my nutritional knowledge is, if I don't know how to sell, communicate, create buy-in from my players, I can be as complicated as I want nutritionally. But if I can't get somebody, for example, to eat broccoli or cauliflower, I'm gonna struggle. So, how do I make broccoli the sexiest vegetable in the cafeteria?

Like if I can do that, you'll be a millionaire, number one. Yeah.

And and that's so that's got nothing to do with being a good nutritionist. That's learning from again, selling marketing. Uh, and you just create, you make your your your nutritional expertise now more powerful, more valuable. It's not that you need to, you know, spend hours learning, but understanding how do I make how to become more effective and more efficient.

Yeah. You know, I'm I'm about 50 pages into that book, right? And uh thank you, you know, Tony Gentlecore for actually recommending that book. And um, I read The Sports Gene as well. And one of the things I'm taking away just 50 pages in is that it gives it gives me, I I like I've been a late bloomer in just about everything I've done. Like athletics didn't really get decent at anything until I was like 16, right? Um, and that's when I specialized, ironically, right? Was in water pole. And then, you know, through my career, my first 10 years, I duck and dove from various forms of sales and marketing and all these things. And I started a business and sold and you know, all this stuff. And I was like, oh God, I feel like so justified in my career path at 42, you know, that maybe I haven't hit my extreme financial goals yet. Right. Because I I compare just like I mean, I have a lot of very from the outside successful friends. People have got right out of college, went right into consulting companies or um, you know, finance or something like that. And you know, they have the big fancy cars and the homes and all of the things, right? Um, and I feel I think if people read this and they're thinking, like, yeah, maybe my success is all ahead of me still, because all of that experience and the little bit of failures and learning, um, it's all building to something. And I think if people can get one message out of it, at least from the first 50 pages I did, is that as long as you believe that you will get to where you want to be, it doesn't matter exactly when you land there, but that you're on that journey to get there. And you will. You just will, right? And that was a big takeaway for me so far.

Yeah, and I I think the only, you know, people say what the only two things you're guaranteed are death and taxes. But the only thing that you're absolutely sure of in life is that things are going to change. And the only sure um bulwark against that is adaptability. And the the ability to adapt is based on the breadth of your skills, not on the specialization. Yes, you will survive some things if you've got just. Got a specialized skill, but you know, uh you need to be adaptable, and and you do need to have one thing that you're good at, but you need to have a foundation uh and a breadth of skills to allow you to continue to adapt over time, and you know, I see it in uh that truly separates the the great coaches from the good ones, actually. Looking at them, whether it's the John Woodens, the Belichick, the Sabins, whatever, it's their ability to adapt, not their ability to do one thing well. And I I go back to Michael Jordan, you know, I it's it's an obvious example, but you know, he came to the league and flew through the air, nobody could you know hang. But over time, then he had to develop a greater skill set. He came back and he he introduced a fadeaway because he just couldn't hang in the air as much. So it's that's the ability to adapt. What's incredibly impressive is when somebody at the pinnacle of their career adapts. That's really, really impressive. That's what makes the Jordans, you know, the great athletes great. And that's why my definition definition of a great uh athlete or coach is somebody who wins continuously at a high level because that's showing that they're adapting, that comes from an authenticity, a humility, a vulnerability to be able to keep doing that. And that's rare.

Yeah.

Rare in business and in sport.

It's it's have you read uh or it's a documentary, actually, it's a video documentary, Chasing Greatness. Have you seen that one? Oh, yes, yes. It follows like Wayne Grant. It's the same principle of like early specialization versus like letting kids play, right?

Yeah, both of both of us could learn, both of us could have learned from Jerry Rice. Yeah.

Oh, Jerry, the man. Um, but then there's a lot of interesting factors in there about, you know, um, I think it it's it's such a big deal now with how specialized people think they have to get. And this actually dovetails nicely into a topic I want to cover with you as well is, you know, in in the fitness health industry or just life in general, we have to adapt to technology, right? I mean, that's one of the that's one of the biggest factors that's changing incredibly fast. And I think there's a lot of people who have a lot of fear, right, around that, that topic. You know, um, am I am I gonna be replaced by robots essentially, right? Um, like just yesterday, a small example is I I went to the gym and um I didn't really feel like doing anything. I saw I went and tried out one of those virtual uh spinning classes, right, at the gym. Yeah, it was fucking awesome. I was super happy with it, right? Because I could do it. I shucked in, it took me 45 minutes, I was out, and I was like, God, I wonder how many, you know, cycling, you know, spinning coaches are concerned about that. But then here's what was the interesting thing is I came home, my wife had taken an actual spinning class that morning. Okay. And she said the instructor was unbelievable. All the little things that she did right, she taught you, like, okay, no, you keep your hips in engaging your core, and they did all this cool stuff. And you know, she never learned before, and she felt like it was a great experience. And uh, you know, I'm starting to like, okay, so I'm looking at this scenario is like you get this thing where someone can just show up anytime and take a virtual class. And then you have this person who created this amazing experience, right? And how she's I'm sure this person has thought, okay, well shit, now my my gym offers virtual spinning classes. How do I compete? I compete, I adapt by making a great experience, right? So she adapted, and that's amazing. And I think um, you know, that's something that people and you mentioned previously in our conversation before starting that there's limitations to tech.

Yeah, I think so. Oh, this can this is a rabbit hole. But I think um, yeah, like so you know, my my background originally was in in technology and understanding the role of technology, particularly in manufacturing. But what it provided me at the outset of this explosion in sports science was a critical awareness of the limitations. And I always say that the most important thing for a sports scientist or a coach or anybody using technology is not to know what it does, but to know what it doesn't do. Because when you know what it doesn't do, then you can be prepared uh to supplement, to provide that, and also know what not to read into. So you give an excellent example of the experience. And what what I would suggest was is missing is an emotional connection and emotional awareness. Now, that emotional thing is almost impossible to recreate. I would argue you can't do it with technology alone. In fact, it's dangerous if you spend an excessive amount of time without some emotional connection, um, and that creates a uh a gap, uh, a dearth within the person. And that's where, again, go back to crosswit, that was the other thing it provided. So I use the example of uh, you know, technology is just like a calculator, it's gonna give you the right answer, it never fails for the most part, but it does exactly what it's asked to do, but it's not gonna do anymore. And when people talk about AI, for example, listen, trust me, we don't have to worry about AI. It's not gonna be a problem for us in our lifetime, and AI has to, it's gonna take time to develop it, to understand it, but the well, it's knowing what it's not going to provide. So, um, for people in the health and fitness industry, technology can help, and it can help provide, in your example, the example you gave, a stopgap or an opportunity. But what excites me is knowing what technology doesn't provide, the best practitioners are those who develop the best emotional connection, provide the best experience. Those are the things, and uh you know, I wrote about it quite a bit in my in my first book because everybody worries about drills and activities and reps. For me, going back to that example of kids on the street, the question that I always ask is what is the experience of the kid, the player, your client? Walk through the doors of your gym in with your client's eyes one day. What do they see? Is it tidy, is it clean? How am I greeted? What's what's the experience? And then ask yourself, what is technology, what what parts of that can technology provide, and how can I make that experience better? That's what people are going to turn up for. And they're certainly going to turn up on their bad day for a positive experience.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can we can stay with uh you know a jib example because it's just so it's easy, right? It's such a great example to use. But you look at like um, you know, an F-45 and you know how they've harnessed technology because it's it's it's it's a big part of the experience, right? Now it doesn't take away from the trainer because I've been to some some good F-45 classes with amazing trainers, right? Energetic, um you know, friendly, uh, really gen like they care genuinely about you know how you're doing and they want to make sure you don't get injured, and and but they bring a great experience, but it's supplemented in it by the technology because technology is allowing them to do less of the class maintenance, which is like, okay, you go to this station now, you go to this station now, right? No, that that is taking care of it, right? For the most part. Now they can focus on on the people. And I know there's some really great software is coming out there for CrossFit gyms, too, that's going to take away a lot of the things that bog them down to free them up to do the more human experiential things.

That's and and that's the critical point, is it's freeing people up to create and to magnify that emotional interpersonal connection, which you know, many of us go through, will go through the day without having that connection with someone else. So it technology allows us, it doesn't some people think that it's taking away that. No, it's actually providing the opportunity to create a better connection with people. That's what's really that's what I think is really, really helpful.

Yeah, yeah. No, I I've said it on this show, I've said it a million times too. It's just so important that um we don't we embrace technology and start playing with it, right? Go if you don't have one, go get a heart rate monitor, you know, or some kind of wearable device, you know, an aura ring. Start to understand it and start to see like, hmm, how can I use this to make my client experience even better, right?

What yeah, one of the one of the one of the things that I I always say about technology is it's not the data, it's not the information, it's the insight, the insight that you're looking for. What does it tell you about the person and what's it's not the data, it's it's not the information, it's the insight. And the second thing that, and I think this is the new frontier for all the technology companies, is what is the deliverable, the protocol, and the outcome? Forget about the input, forget about the data. The real future is providing uh you know valid protocols and actionable in insight that the person can use. And obviously, you've got different levels, but that's where the future is. The future is not in the data. So many steps, who cares? But what do I need to do? What's the nature of them? What should I do? That's adding value. Otherwise, you're just adding you're adding noise, but you want to add value. So it's the insight, it's the protocol. That's where you're gonna add value.

Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. One of the one of my recent episodes here, I had Mike Dawson from Push Technology up in Toronto, and you know, he was explained to me the whole principles of athlete management systems, where they're getting all of the data in to provide actionable feedback for the athlete and and the coaches. And I think that's you know, kind of the next level. I mean, you know, he even mentioned, you know, a lot of these companies who have accumulated all this data over time, you know, from you know, like a Fitbit, for example, right? Tons of data. But now they're finally getting savvy and saying, you know, we actually need diet data scientists here, people who knew what to do with the data. Um, because it's just yeah, yeah, well, yeah, and there are two things.

One is it's not it's not data scientists, they need they need domain knowledge experts to know what the nature of the data is, and then what does that mean? Because you can give me any data and I can find a correlation. I you know, I was at a presentation recently where somebody showed a correlation between I think it was uh divorce rates in the US and ketogenic diets. Like, I mean, I can find correlations, I can find you know patterns with anything. So that's the danger. But what's what's what's really needed is also to understand the quality of the data because a lot of data that has been collected is not accurate. And collecting big data, and this is why, yes, Facebook and Google have big data, truly big data, but a lot of companies don't have big data, they don't have good good enough data, there are not enough data points, they're not enough subjects. So when I see companies that say, Oh, we can predict injury based on this, this, and this, it's absolute nonsense. Really, the data needs to be individualized to the person and having a domain specialist, someone who truly understands the nature of it. Oh, and that helps you upskill the user. Now, in what we what we've got today is we that's the place that the human, that the coach is providing, they're bridging the information, whether it's technological or whether it's sets and reps or watching you train, they're bridging and helping you understand how to recover, how to get better, what to do the next thing. And that's where the real excitement is in technology, but it's understanding too that you know uh there are a lot of limitations you know at the minute, and it's understanding how we can bridge those those limitations.

Yeah, awesome, awesome, man. Well, it's been uh almost an hour. Can you believe that? Wow. Yeah, it was pretty good. Um, I want to respect your time too. Just give us some insights, man. Tell us about your books, tell us about what you got coming up. Um, this will probably release uh in about two to three weeks. So, you know, what what's on your event calendar? Where do people find you? Where can they get a hold of all that?

Yeah, so that's uh yeah, the the um the best place is just I guess on Twitter, Fergus underscore conley. Um I've well my the last book I published was out about five months ago, 59 Lessons, which was basically stories from working across uh special forces and professional support. And just there's essentially just a series of stories and lessons that I learned that I wanted to share. I wanted to to thank so many people that I was fortunate to learn from, and also then uh to just provide some examples for coaches of lessons that they could learn. And uh later on this year I've got a series of four books coming out called The Process, which are uh it's really a system that I've used across professional sport. Uh, and there are four series of four books about coaching and preparing young kids the whole way through. And I wanted to provide a book that would show the pathway from high school through college uh to probe. And it's actually based on my first book, Game Changer, but this is really practical applied examples. And we we use football as an example, but there are examples for basketball, baseball, and lots of other sports. So uh that should be out by the time this comes out.

Yeah, when do you sleep?

Busy. I I this is as you can guess, this is this is my passion. I I actually uh believe it or not, I've uh three more books started. Uh just just to like you, but uh one is on one is just on what we spoke about earlier, the the interpersonal skills that we're not taught today or that we don't maybe experience. So it's really interesting not to drag this on too long, but there's such a focus now on education, and uh you know, somebody called me this morning, they're going for an interview, the job requires a PhD. And you know, when you do a PhD, you're a specialist in a really small area. So going back to David Epstein's range, you know, you you become a specialist in a small area, but you don't have the breadth of knowledge. And one of the things that we don't spend enough time teaching is about you know leadership, management, communication, relationships, those things. And based on my experience mentoring performance directors and NHL, NBA, NFL, uh, I put together, you know, what uh a series of modules to help them become aware of it. Some of them they know, but it's just to reaffirm and to provide those interpersonal skills that make you a truly great leader in high performance. Yeah. So it keeps me busy.

Yeah.

Well, man, thank you so much for coming on. It's really uh, really, really interesting work that you do. And um maybe I can uh coerce you to come back on because I feel like there's some rabbit holes that we we have yet to uh to uncover or at least dive down, right? I mean there's a lot.

No, I'd no, I'd love to. The the quality of an interview is always only as good as the questions. Uh so that's been a it's been a great, great conversation. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me on.

Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen, Fergus Connolly. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So it only takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge, that's a big deal for us. And where we put a lot of work into these episodes, uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness MarketingAliance.com