The Future of Education - Brian Sutton

Yeah, if you look at any picture from the from like the 1960s or 1970s, people didn't have six pack six pack abs and booty shots, right? But most people were just a healthy body weight. Yeah. And now we have I'm in completely great shape and I'm gonna advertise it all over social media, or I'm gonna hide and never show a picture of myself on the internet because I'm embarrassed of it.

Hey friends, welcome back to the Future of Fitness Podcast and Interview Series. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and this is episode number 156. I talked to Brian Sutton from the National Association of Sports and Medicine, otherwise known as NASM, otherwise known as NASM to us lay people. And great interview. Man, I've uh Brian and I have been swimming in the same circles for a long time. We finally got to connect and lay down uh an interview like this. And I was so excited, you can tell, almost giddy, um, to get this interview and talk to him for a while because to me, and Brian agrees, is that the whole world of education, not just fitness education certifications, but um the whole world of education, the institution itself is right for disruption. And what does that mean? Well, anything that's right for disruption has a world of opportunity. And uh, you know, it's not just within the fitness and health community, but all over the world, right? And we talk about that, why that's it's such a big deal. And you're starting to see a lot more people come out with certifications, a lot more uh things like getting a trade certification, or you're seeing it pop up everywhere. And I'm deep, I'm knee deep in it, right, with certified course creation. I could tell you, listen to this interview and really let it sink in because if you do and you start looking at the world through this lens, that perhaps you'll see some opportunities that uh you didn't see before. So great insights from Brian. Um, one of the things that NASM is coming out with, already has come out with, is their nutrition coach certification. So you can go check out that. Um, no doubt that is gonna be a uh a premier um certification education course, too. So so much opportunity here. And I think it makes sense that this is brought to you by certifiedcoursecreation.com. So Kate and I have been busy building out accredited online certifications for people and institutions that really need it. And uh it's been awesome. I mean, the ones we've launched, they've all made multiple ROI on their investment with us. And it's it's just kind of a no-brainer. If you are somebody who has a great, you know, depth of knowledge in a particular topic and you've been successful in your area, and now it's time for you to scale. And what I mean by scale is leveraging yourself. You can't do it all. But what if there was people that took your knowledge, right, that you can teach them through the years that you put into it and then run out there and be versions of you uh in their own unique way and spread the word increase impact, um, make a ton of income, and you know, stop trading your time for money really is one of the big things as well, which we fall into with the fitness and health profession quite often. So go to certifiedcoursecreation.com. There's a little bit of information about Kate and I, and uh, you can book a call with me if you think you have a great concept. I will help you um maybe tease it out a little bit and see how relevant it is to the market and what kind of opportunity there is for it. Um, I'm happy to do that. So certifycoursecreation.com. Without further ado, this is episode number one five six with Brian Sutton of the National Association of Sports Medicine. Enjoy the ride. We're live. Brian, welcome. Thanks, Eric. Thanks for having me. This this is fun. Yeah, this is fun. Uh, a couple things before we get started. Um, want to give a shout out to Doug Holt, uh, Ben Reuter. Um have uh introduced me to you in the past, and I'm glad that I finally got you on a uh a podcast here. So um kudos to those guys, and you can check out all the millions of things. Ben has two podcasts, uh Living to Move. And um uh what's his Pittsburgh one? Um, I always forget.

Uh God is something Pitts Lab, something uh Yeah.

Maybe it's Fit Lab Pittsburgh. Something like that. Yeah, moving to that's it. Fit Lab Pittsburgh and Moving to Live. Those are his two primary podcasts. One's local, one's uh all the place you can check them out. And then uh Doug has a couple of podcasts too. So um you can check him out as well. But yeah, man, let's let's talk about you. Give us your story, Brian.

Oh boy, okay. Um, well, first let's go back. I want a big shout out to Doug and Ben, because Ben and I were actually Ben was actually one of my professors way back in 2009. And then um in 2010, I actually became adjunct faculty uh at Cal U, where Ben still teaches. So I taught there for eight years. So Ben's a great guy. Love Ben. I'm actually uh working with him on a project here, and then of course, Doug and I, we were uh college roommates. So that's how we met. And it's it's interesting how both of us now have careers in the fitness industry. You know, it's going telling you about my age, you know, this is almost 20 years now. This is probably over 20 years I've been in the fitness industry. So um it's pretty cool, you know. You get to meet a lot of really awesome people in this industry. Um, but those are two guys at the top of their game for sure. But um, yeah, my name's Brian. I've been with the National Academy of Sports Medicine since 2004. So been been quite a while. Um, and I uh I oversee or I am part of the team of the uh the education department, the product development team. So all the different certifications that we build, you know, certified personal trainer, corrective exercise, performance enhancement, we just came out with a new nutrition certification. So all those courses um my team and I put together. So we work with some really, really smart people to uh put that education together. So it's a lot of fun.

Yeah, man. I mean, and I think uh do you do you go by NASM or is NASM? How do you guys say it around the office?

So around the office, it's NASM.

Okay.

Out in the real world, everyone else calls us NASM.

Yeah.

Why in the office? We've never adopted it. We've always said NASM. So it's it's it's interesting. It's almost like nails on a chalkboard when we hear NASM. I don't know why. It's just because you no one says NASA, they always say NASA, right? But for us in the office, the culture has always been NASM. It's just what it is. So yeah.

Well, I mean NASA.

But if you say NASM, I won't be offended at all.

It does it's not like a uh it's not like a a fun word to hear. It sounds like spasm, NAS like not like something about it, right? It's not like uh yeah, it's not like French, right? It doesn't sound fluid and and melodic.

No, no, it really does. And I think maybe it's part of it is because the other um credential organizations, NSCA, ACSM, they don't, you know, I guess the only uh caveat would be ACE. You know, everyone says ACE, but that makes sense. But none of the other ones say Axum or a NESCA, you know, they just say NSCA. So maybe that's that's the reason why that culture has stuck for as long as it has. It's pretty big, yeah. As far as market share goes, NASM is the biggest. So um and I believe ACE is number two as far as market share. Um and then it it it tails off pretty quickly from there. Um NSCA and ACSM, I don't know specifically what their market share is, but I know NASM has the the biggest market share, and then ACE is number two.

Wow, wow.

And you guys, and when was NASM founded? It was founded in 1987, actually. So it's been a while around a while. Um a guy named Dr. Bob Goldman founded NASM. And then in the 90s, he sold NASM to a person named Neil Spruce. And Neil Spruce owned NASM for quite a while until 2009, 2010, and then and then he sold NASM. NASM was acquired by another company whose currently they're called Ascend Learning, that's our parent company, and so they own several businesses. Um, and Ascend Learning owns mostly businesses in the healthcare-related field, so uh organizations that specialize in nursing or different types of um uh certifications in the medical field, so like being a phlebotomist or um a you know uh I don't know, some of the other medical um fields. And then so Ascent Learning owns a bunch of different businesses and NASM just happens to be one of them.

Yeah. Yeah, and you and you uh I know because we had talked, I think last week about since you're you started your career there, you've seen just drastic exponential growth in NASM.

Yeah, it was it's it's it's been a wild ride. Uh when I started in 04, NASM was basically a family-owned business. You know, I think there was 20, 30 people, you know, you know, so it wasn't a very big company. Um and over the years, I mean, it's it's gotten big, you know. So we're just about to move into a new office uh next year because we've run out of space. So it's it's it it it's it's pretty cool. We have uh maybe 130 employees, something like that. Um, and um, of course, there's also employees that are that work off site as well. So it's um yeah, it's pretty big. Um a lot of moving parts, you know. So but it's it's a great culture. It's it's uh my wife always says I have a unicorn job. And I I yeah, I do. I mean, it's fun. I work with some of the best minds in fitness, so it's fun.

Yeah, awesome, man. Yeah, it's um it's interesting. I was asking some, is there like, do you guys have to report to like any kind of government body? Is there anybody looking over the fitness, health, wellness, education space from a federal standpoint?

Not really. Not really. So fitness is not regulated by the federal government, um, or fitness certification is not, it's more self-regulated. So URSA has their recommendations, so the International Health, Rack and Sports Club Association. So we tend to follow URSA's recommendation. Um, thankfully, uh the fitness certification world has changed a lot. When I first started in 2004, um, that's when the diploma mills were at their height. You know, go online and get a personal trainer certification for 50 bucks and call yourself a personal trainer, right? That really doesn't exist as much anymore. Um, there's lots of different certifying organizations, but majority of them are uh they seek third-party accreditation. Ours is through the NCCA, so the National Commission of Certifying Agencies. So the test is accredited. Someone's got to go to a testing site, you know, and it's proctored, and so you can't cheat, and um all those things help elevate the standards of fitness, but the federal government does not regulate personal training certification whatsoever. Will that change? There's always been speculation, you know. Um there have been proposed bills in some states, you know, like it should be more of a licensing, you know, like a physical therapist needs to get licensed by their state or a dietitian needs to get licensed by their state. Um, but that hasn't happened yet. And if that does, we'll adjust. But right now we just go through third-party accreditation for our our courses.

Yeah. I mean, that's that's something that I've been talking to people in the fitness industry for a long time. Is like, well, if the fitness profession truly wants to elevate, right? You know, to the likes of, you know, medical professionals, sure, attorneys. Yeah, things like that, where we really want to elevate to a level of respect and earnings, right? Follow that um as well. Like what needs to happen. A lot of people say it's the formal education that needs to take place. But then there's also a backlash, because I've seen like Facebook arguments start over this, um, as you can imagine, they go as deep, right? Yes. Like, no, we want people, we want federal out of it. Like, we don't want anybody regulating. We're happy the way things are. Um, but it's it's an interesting dichotomy, right? Uh, like what do you do with that? I mean, do you have any opinions on where you think it's gonna go? Do you think somebody's gonna step in and become like the the licensing board, I guess?

Um possible. I I mean anything's possible because I've seen so much change just in uh you know, since I I've been doing this. I think there's two groups. There are the groups that just say no federal regulation, let us do it ourselves, right? Um and then there are the other groups going, no, we want more recognition, right? We want we want to be held to the same standard as you know, say a physical therapist assistant or uh something like that, you know, uh uh a vet tech, right? You have to get the formal education to do those professions. And we want personal training to be something like that. And I see some validity in that. I I really do. Um since that's not the case, thankfully, I've been given the autonomy to make the certifications that NASM provides as rigorous as we feel we need to to ensure that once someone gets certified, they're going to be a successful personal trainer. Right. And that's from knowing the anatomy, the physiology, to the behavior change, communication, program design, fitness assessments, all those different things that go into personal training. Um I do feel you know, we take it very seriously here at NASM to make sure that we cover those topics and we don't water it down. Um other organizations could if they really chose, if they wanted to. Um, but I feel like we uh we don't want to, we want we want NASM to be the gold standard. So that's why we don't do it. It's more of an ethical thing. Um but if if regulation does happen, if there are some federal guidelines or state licensing that is required, I I know NESM would be able to um adapt very quickly to that just because the rigor is already in place with uh with the content that we create.

So yeah, yeah. I mean ultimately it it starts with an example, right? If you guys hold everybody to a higher standard, we'll do it ourselves. And you know, therefore, you know, it'll trickle down to our clients and communities and and people will see like, oh, this person's a professional.

That's that's a lot of it comes to the demand. Right. Because I mean, obviously NASM and myself included, we have a vested interest to elevating the personal training profession, right? We don't want personal trainers to just be the people that look great in the mirror. And you know, the you know, you know, back think of like the 70s and 80s, the the only personal trainers you knew of they were former bodybuilders, for example, or or or high-end athletes. And so they trained people, but they may have no formal education on exercise science or nutrition or anatomy, physiology. They're just like, here's what I do, so you're gonna do the same thing. We don't want that. We really want our professionals to have that knowledge base. So uh we want to elevate them to a higher standard than just being the jocks in the gym, or you know, and um I think I think we do that fairly well. Uh, I do see a lot of chatter on social media where people are like, oh, why do I have to learn the muscles? Why do I have to learn about this sort of anatomy? Well, if you want to elevate the profession, you have to have a certain level knowledge. You have to understand how the body works. If I because then I can dissect any exercise and tell you exactly what muscles are working, what what joint actions are happening, how it's affecting my energy systems, and at the end of the day, how that's gonna impact my client. So that base level knowledge is for me, it's always important. I'm a better trainer because I have that knowledge.

So yeah, yeah. Well, of course, you know, the uh the Instagram uh six packs and booty shop, that's not helping. Yeah, yeah. Right? It's not helping. That's a whole nother conversation. When uh I don't want to get into that. When when do you think the fitness profession started? Because it's young. And I, you know, I've I've looked back, I'm like, like, who who was it? Was it Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? Was it uh Lilane? Like who really kind of started it as like, okay, you can actually train people as a profession.

When do you think that started? That's a great question. I think it's just morphed in many different directions over the years. Um, we you and I are we're about the same age. So, you know, when I was growing up, my idols were Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Hokken, you know, those kind of guys, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna look like Stallone, you know, and so um I think it's it's morphed, you know, in the 80s, it was more all the research was about aerobic exercise, and that's when aerobics really started taking off, right? You got that you got the leotards and the all that kind of good stuff.

Yes, mini trampolines.

Yeah, yeah, right. And uh so and and even before that in the 70s, it was more of the jogging running craze started to happen. Um, so I would say the fitness industry really, if I had to narrow it down to what we think of it today, probably somewhere in this in the 70s, I would, I would guess. Um, but they didn't really start to get formalized until probably more of the mid-late 80s, where you started hiring personal trainers and gyms, started seeing a revenue stream, like, hey, you know what? We could get some people in here to train clients, and that's more revenue for us, get more people into the gym, higher membership sales. Um, and I think that really started more so in the 80s. In the in the 70s, it was more aerobics and group X and that kind of stuff. And then the personal training industry started taking off, I think, after that.

Yeah. And I I think it's just an interesting conversation for people to hear because a lot of people don't actually think about it. You know, think about how young the fitness industry truly is. And, you know, compared to, you know, some of the professions we talked about there earlier. I mean, nursing or industry or, you know, physical therapy, like these things have been around for a while. And we're we're just getting started. So, you know, things and we're I think we're doing all right. And uh I think so.

I think so.

I hope so. Um yeah, I mean, again, you know, a lot of it's changed because when I got started in it, so I started working at a really small gym uh during my undergrad. And um, so that was the late 90s, and um just the the change in personal training and and group X from the 90s till now is it's it's drastic, you know, and um it's just getting better, you know. There are still the issues of um fitness professionals not having a full depth of understanding of what they should do, but I think organizations like NASM and then even just some of the independent people out there that are um that are teaching personal training, um, they may not belong to an organization like NS NASM or NSCA, um, but they're teaching really good things, you know, and there's lots of uh summits and workshops and continuing ed out there uh for Fit Pros to go and learn something more. And I think that's that's huge. That's huge for the industry. Um unfortunately it still has a very high turnover, right? And you know, most people will get certified. They have no idea that they have to sell, right? They think they're just gonna get handed clients and they're gonna be able to help people, and that's not the case. You know, it's just like any other business. You got to go out there, you got to get clients, you got to market yourself. Um, and then you gotta build up that book of business. And if you don't, you're gonna fizzle out really quick. You know, it there's no magic wand where now I'm certified and I'm gonna have 30 clients and in my Rolodex. That just doesn't happen anymore. If people don't understand what a Rolodex is, I think it's it is I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so that uh unfortunately that that happens, but when someone gets over that hump and they've been in the industry, I I think that's where we see the personal trainers, they're really elevated, you know, and they understand program design, but they also understand marketing, they understand sales, they understand how to relate and communicate with clients through level professionalism. You know, it's it's it's it's up here now, right? They don't just think of it as I'm a rep counter and I'm gonna take this person through this workout. It's it's their profession, it's their identity in in a way. You know, there's their career, not just a job. Um, and I would love for more people to experience that, but it's it's it's a tough industry, just like just like anything else. If I was gonna go out and get certified to become an accountant, I just passed my CPA exam, I could go work for a company and that might be easier. But if I started my own business, Which basically personal training is even if you work for a big box, it's your own business. There are a lot of skills that personal trainers need to have in order to run that own business, their own business. And I think that's the one area that's lacking in the industry is teaching those, those aspiring personal trainers, the newly certified personal trainers, how to run their business.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's an interesting thing. I mean, I've said it probably a hundred times on the show is that you know the the fitness industry is by nature entrepreneurial. You can't escape it. You have you have to be you have to look at yourself as a business every day from the get-go. And and there is, I mean, the last five years especially, I've seen a big push for business coaching, marketing coaching, specialists. A lot of there's, you know, I can uh take my pitching wedge and hit any direction and hit a digital marketer now, right? And uh there's plenty of that. So maybe there's an overcorrection taking place now, um, but it's important. You know, people really need to know how to market their their businesses. And you know, coming from a gym owner who started from zero, right, in Santa Barbara, California, as you know, it's a very, very competitive market. Yes. Yeah. Um go gauchos, by the way, because I'm yeah, go gauchos, right, right, right. I'm a Boston College Eagle, but we'll take it. Um, you know, it was uh yeah, it's it's a challenge. And I think a lot of people, there's a lot of there's a lot of great coaches out there. There's a lot of also, you know, business coaches. I mean, there's also a lot of people out there and talk to Pat Rigsby about this who um are going skipping the business part and going straight to business coaching, right? Which is interesting. Now you've got to spend some time in the trenches.

Yeah, I see that a lot.

Yeah, you know. Um so let's uh I want to get into the meat of of some of the topics that we kind of addressed before we recorded, but where where do you see, and we can expand into education as a whole, but where do you see online fitness education going right now? And I guess I maybe I could start with this. What what do you think? What's the biggest problem with online fitness education now from your perspective?

Um for fitness education as it stands, I think it's not necessarily content that's the problem. I think it's how it's taught is the problem. Um I I'm lucky enough that not only have I learned a lot of the content, you know, and I and I've been studying anatomy phys and exercise science and all this stuff for for 20 years, but I've also I've expanded my breadth of knowledge regarding instructional design and education. So it's not just the content that you know, but it's how you teach it that's important. Um and I find that that's probably one of the biggest problems in fitness education. Other sectors are are way more advanced than fitness when it comes to teaching the content and how they teach the content. Um if I were to go to a um something like Khan Academy, for example, I don't know if you ever heard of Khan Academy. Khan Academy is great, right? And it's uh it's it's an online, it's a free online resource for people to learn English and math and science, and it's for schoolers from kindergarten through through high school, right? And it's a really cool resource. They do a wonderful job because it's not just they have content experts that teach the topics, but it's how they teach it. So things like um hot buzz topics are like micro learning. So instead of just taking this big concept, let's just say, you know, anatomy of the nervous system, we'll just start with tiny, tiny little chunks. And each chunk builds upon itself. It's called scaffolding. So by the end, now I have this holistic view of what the nervous system does and all the major components of it. Unfortunately, I see with a lot of fitness education is that they have content experts, but they don't have an expert in instructional design or education, how to teach it. So somebody who's brand new, who's never taken a science course in their life, never taken an anatomy course, and they they read this chapter or they watch this video, and they're completely overwhelmed because it's not, they didn't provide the education to meet the person where they're at and then build them up from there. And so we have a team of instructional designers here. I'm an instructional designer as well. So we have experts not only in the science, but we have experts in education. And so that's where I think fitness education for the most part is uh is lacking, is uh we get students all the time saying, I was doing fine until I got to the anatomy part and it was just too hard and I gave up. What that tells me is it's not the content, it's how we're teaching the content. And so we we revise and we make it more palatable for the student without reducing the rigor. We still keep the rigor, we keep the difficulty, but we teach it better. We provide more analogies, we we we break it up into smaller chunks, we make it more engaging by using video or certain um educational tools like drag and drops and matching and fun, and we gamify it and we do all these little things, and then the student doesn't even realize that they're learning all this content because it becomes more engaging for them. And I think other sectors do it pr fairly well. Like if I were to take a course through, I'm in Arizona, so if I went to take an online course through ASU, their courses may be a little bit better designed than some courses that I would take through in the fitness industry because not only do they have professors, but they also have instructional designers and people that are really good at it. Um Linda or Lynda.com, which is now LinkedIn Learning, that's a really good I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a great example because they have content experts, but they also you can see how everything is chunked out to small little segments. So you have a unit broken down into lessons, and each lesson then is broken down into even you know a smaller chunk. And that's an easier way to learn. Um, another thing is which is interesting to me, but it's it it totally makes sense. People are now learning just on their phones, they don't sit behind a computer, right? So we are we're now building all of our courses to be mobile responsive. So if I'm walking on the treadmill at the gym, I can still learn, you know, podcasts and audio and video, and just making sure that I can do all of it from my phone. Students are learning from their phone. They don't, you know, they don't they don't learn the traditional way with just a book and test questions. That's that's old school. And any organization that just provides a book and practice tests, they're they're outdated. That's not the way this generation is being taught in public schools. Um, it's not the way they're learning on their own. They will go to YouTube, they will go to any other free online resource and and find the answers there rather than just read and highlight a textbook. Some people like books. I'm still a book learner, but this next generation of learners, they are using their mobile phones, they're going to YouTube, they're going directly to the source to find the answers. They're not necessarily just uh taking out a big 600-page textbook and reading through it. That's not the way people learn anymore.

Yeah, yeah, man. This is really I'm I really love this topic, man. I'm I'm so because I think about this all the time. I think if there's one institution within our country that's so ripe for disruption, it's education. It just doesn't make sense anymore. Why do you have to go to four years of anything? Right. And I mean, my nephew is going to um the San Francisco Art Academy, right? Which I think believe is just only three years. His expected debt when he's done is $150,000 if he doesn't get a grant or a scholarship. Right. Absolutely crazy. Screwed. Screwed, right? Yeah. Meanwhile, my wife learned how to ski over YouTube. Right. Right. You know what I mean? You see what I'm saying? Like exactly things are changing. And the access to the information doesn't need to be, you know, now great. Okay. People say, well, college is a great experience. It is. I'm super thankful for college. I had a great time. I learned a lot of people and met a lot of professors in an environment of learning. You can't do that online. But something's got to shift. Like this, this isn't good. And you know, one of the uh I guess Kate and I at Certified Course Creation, which is you know, a plug for one of my um partner companies. We uh we make sure that if we are building out a certification for whether it be a nutrition, we're doing a money coach one now, or doing a bunch of different things, that there's a marketing and sales component to it. It has to you have to, you have to have what we call the now what.

Yep.

Okay, great. I just learned all this stuff about macros. Now what? Now what?

You got it. We try to do that in our education as well. It's like, okay, um, I just learned about what a neuron is. Now what? Or I just learned how my body digests protein. Now what? You know, why is that important? So yeah, we try to do that as well. But this this whole education thing is insane. And just go personally speaking, I'm not speaking for NASM right now. Um I have two two kiddos, they're eight and eleven, and obviously scholastics are very important, right? You know, for us. But if my son decides I'd rather be an electrician, I don't see an issue with it. No. Because go to a trade school, you won't have that debt, and you'll make a great living. Like there's nothing wrong with it. Um we I I will push my kids.

Or go get a mentor.

Or get a mentor, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, but to go get an undergrad and be a hundred thousand in debt, and it still won't advance your career is insane. One of the things I think is not fair, and it's all it's the only time in society like I I can feel like this happens, is you're asking an 18-year-old to determine their career and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars, when you're 18 years old, you have no idea, you've never even lived on your own, you've never experienced the real world. You're technically adult, but it's a child's mind. It's and you're like, okay, go to this college, go get a degree, go working, and you're like, okay, I'm going to get a $50,000 loan, $100,000 loan to get this degree to start working. And then the first day you get that job, you're like, this blows. And I just spent all this money on it. Because you're asking an 18-year-old to make that decision. There's no way. It's impossible, you know. So that's where I think it's it's almost like you're asking an 18-year-old to get married to their career. And we always say, you know, like I'll tell my kids, I'm like, if you want to get married at 18, you're too young, right? You you should go experience household relationships first. But we're asking them to do that with their career. We're asking an 18-year-old to marry their career and take out a very big investment for it. I think it's the wrong perspective.

Yeah. And it's, I mean, you're seeing a whole generation push back. And they should, right? I mean, they're you're right. Like, implicitly, like, do you even know at that age what $100,000 is? Like, do you have any idea what that what that means for your life? That's like you're immediately enslaved for decades, if not more. Right.

Yeah.

Um You know, it's interesting. I'm one of my idols is Joe Rogan. I listen to his podcast all the time. Uh uh. And and you know, one of the things he points out, you know, as far as educational form that that probably will take place, maybe not in the next decade, but definitely I think in the next 20, is it's just boring, right? I mean, you go through grammar school, it's just boring. Like, no wonder kids are getting diagnosed with this fake thing called ADHD, or you know what I mean? It's like, well, they're just bored to death. But think about this. Like, think about what virtual reality is gonna do in the educational space. You could read about the pyramids, or you could put on a VR headset and go walk the pyramids, right? Right. And check it out. Like, for sure. How cool is that? And I think we're missing the point. We're like, well, you gotta stay off your video games, you gotta stay off your devices, you gotta stay off. Well, maybe we meet them where they're at.

Maybe we yeah, for sure. My my eight-year-old is learning about coding. I don't know how to code I don't know either at all. Like, I mean, it's intimidating for him, but he loves it because it's in the form of a game and he codes games and he makes games. He's eight years old. Compiled. He's he's barely learning his multiplication tables and he's coding, you know. I'm like, yeah, let's let's let's meet these kiddos where they're at, you know, and and let's let's embrace technology when it makes sense. I mean, I have I have strict rules with my kids on how long they can be on the computer or watch TV, right? And I still felt feel there's value in opening a book or just playing and using your imagination. Yep. But that doesn't mean that technology is bad all the time. And we we can leverage it to help learners. That's one of the things that here at uh NASM, we're constantly exploring. It's like, how can we use technology to better enhance the experience? Because if someone's not engaged with it, they're gonna fall off, you know. Um, but if we can get them engaged and be like, wow, this is really cool. So we are we are we're looking at things like augmented reality and virtual reality. And gotta be how how can that help, right? Um, especially because it's distance education. Um we're not sitting in a classroom together. So what can I do to improve that experience?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you you gotta. And this kind of this nicely segues way in segues into a topic I want to cover with you too, which is um I was jotting down notes last night. I don't do this very often before a podcast, but I was thinking about our conversation last night and I was like, what kind of stuff would I want to talk about, Brian? I'm like re-education, because it, you know, this came up. Uh I was talking to a gentleman who I know listens to this podcast, uh, Brian, Brian Cooper. Thanks for um being a listener. But you know, Brian helps um people, if they're in their 40s or 50s, who maybe are taking a redirection in their career or get laid off and they don't want to go through a hassle or they don't have the education, they don't know how to code, right? Right, right. He helps place them into businesses that they that they can grow, right? So it help matches their personality, what they enjoy to do, into a business they can start and grow. Because usually they'll have some sort of capital to work with. But it got me thinking, like, well, maybe the huge opportunity here is re-education, right? We're seeing all these people get, I mean, dude, it it breaks my heart when I go to Trader Joe's and I see someone, you know, in their 70s, right? And maybe Social Security isn't taking care of them because they live in a place like California, right? It's just too damn expensive. And they're working there and they can't work the buttons, man. They can't work the buttons of the checkout thing. And, you know, this happened to a good friend of mine, and he just he got he got let go because they're like, sorry, man, we just can't do it, right? There's a huge opportunity for re-education because people are living longer. People aren't, you know, the the the 40-year career followed by a pension is doesn't exist. Nope, right? Not at all. And a lot of people are getting laid off in favor of cheaper, younger, more educated talent. So, how do we take this pool of people who are now lost and re-educate them and and get them into things that that can, you know, move them into the second, third half, you know, part of their life.

Right.

Where where do you see is is does fitness play a part there? I think it could.

I I think it can play a big part in it. In fact, this is an interesting uh factoid is that you would think that most customers of NASM or some of the other certifying agencies are early 20s fitness enthusiasts that go to the gym all the time and they decide I'm gonna be a personal trainer. That's not the case. The average person who buys a certification from NASM is typically in their mid-30s, um, looking for a career shift. So they are trying something new. Um, sometimes it's because someone went through a big weight loss journey and they wanna, they wanna do it, you know, they want to help others. Um, but others it's because I was working in construction for the last 10 years and I don't like it. Or, you know, I've been working as an accountant and it's just awful. You know, whatever, whatever their personal story is. And so they are looking for fitness as a new career avenue. And so, which is it's great because you can get certified and it's not going to cost you the hundred thousand dollars it would be to go to you know a four-year university. So, yeah, fitness absolutely does play a part in it, I think. Um, but just online education in general will be it, that will be the next wave of helping people get out of whatever career they're stuck in and move into something else. Uh and and fitness is is definitely one of those. You know, we have an obesity epidemic. I mean, what 70% of the population now here in the US is either overweight or obese. Um, and they say over 80% of that is because of lifestyle. You know, it's not it's not genetics. Um, so there's there's a need. There's a need. We we are becoming sicker as a nation. So online education is is one of those ways that people can get out of their current situation and into something new. Um now, some people, you know, uh will get completely frustrated with their job and they'll quit and they don't have a plan. Others are too scared, they may be indoctrinated, you know, and they're late, they almost programmed that they have to uh stick with this company because they almost they feel like they don't have uh another solution, right? You know, I've been with Company X for 20 years, it's all I know. There's no way for me to transition. I'm stuck forever, and that's not the case. I um it's but it's that fear of the unknown that uh where someone like you were saying was Brian Cooper. Yeah. Yeah, you know, where he can specialize in helping people like that. It's it's it's true, you know, because we don't live in that society anymore where I leave college, I'm gonna go get a job, I'm with that job for 40 years, I get my pension, I'm good to go. You know, I mean, Arizona's an at-will state, you know, or you know, so they can fire you at any time, which I always say, and you can also leave at any time, right? So it's life's too short. Life's too short to be stuck in something like that.

Yeah, man, I I totally agree. Um, God, it's it's just interesting. And so many, I I do talk to a lot of fitness professionals who are just getting started in their 40s and 50s. And um, you know, because ultimately people get into the fitness and health industry and wellness industry because they really want to help people. Do you find that fulfilling? Yeah, right. And then that's it. That's why I did it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I did it because I want to own my own business. You know, I didn't want to work from anybody. Really, that was why I did it.

You would have that same mentality where you're just like, I'm an entrepreneur through and through. And what's uh what's a profession that will allow me to do that?

Yeah, exactly. I was looking for my business opportunity. I missed it um with the dot-coms, I missed it with mortgage, I missed it with a bunch of stuff because everything collapsed in the 2000s, right? Um I remember all that. Yeah. Uh where was I going with this? Yeah, so a lot of people they they truly want to help people, and that that's amazing, but there's got to be a better path, right, for them to get into it. And and I think, you know, having education for people like an ASM and then following up with good marketing um and business um fundamentals, right? It doesn't even have to be anything sexy, it just has to be fundamentals. Well, how do you build a network? How do you build a different experience, right? How do you do all these things is is truly valuable. We're um so we're in an interesting time in the fitness industry, right? I know you you obviously are very um educated on everything that's going on, but we got you know apps, we got yeah, glad the GRU class franchises are killing it, right? We got um home devices like Peloton, tonal, all of these things. Um, you're getting all the smart technology, right? Um, you know, I'm wearing my my Garmin Phoenix. I love it. There you go. Love it, yeah. Love it.

My wife's got her data. Apple Watch, you know, and she's yeah glued to that thing.

Yeah. What what technology do you think is gonna have the biggest impact on the fitness industry?

Good question. On the fitness industry itself.

Yeah.

Um good question.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I honestly think ARVR, like all that stuff.

Yeah, yeah. I honestly think it's already happening. And it's called YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. It's all the social media. I think social media, more than anything, is having the greatest impact on fitness. Um, you know, and that's in a good way and in a yeah, I was gonna add that was my next question.

Is it good or bad?

Yeah. Uh because we'll have, you know, those, you know, the Instagram model with the six pack abs or the, you know, the the tight toned body and people are wearing rye booty shots. Yeah. Um, and so people are naturally gravitated to that and be like, I want to look like that. Person. So I'm going to learn from that person. And I think that is probably the most influential impact on the fitness industry. Unfortunately, it's also causing a lot of body image disorders and physique anxiety. People are like, I can never attain a body like that. So why should I even try? Or I'm going to do it, but I'm going to hide in my house. I'm never going to go seek out a gym membership or a personal trainer because I have to lose weight before I'd even go to the gym to begin with. Right. And so I think unfortunately social media is driving that perspective to unhealthy levels. And now it's, you know, if you look at any picture from the from like the 1960s or 1970s, people didn't have six-pack abs and booty shots, right? But most people were just a healthy body weight. And now we have six-pack abs and booty shots or overweight and obese. And there's very few people that actually are just normal. That's a minority now. And we it's almost like our political spectrum. And I won't go into politics, but it's extremes, right? Right. It's it's um I'm, you know, I'm in completely great shape and I'm gonna advertise it all over social media, or I'm gonna hide and never show a picture of myself on the internet because I'm embarrassed of it. And unfortunately, I think social media is probably the biggest technology driving not just fitness, but health awareness, what you know, wellness in general, how people feel about themselves, you know, mental illness. I think social media has a lot to do with it.

Totally agree.

Yeah.

I'm in generally a pretty happy guy. Um, but generally when I when I do get anxiety or even like uh you know hints of depression, it's because I'm down with my day and I decide to kick back on the couch and I get on a social media. Yeah. And then you automatically start comparing. You do, you do. Um, I'm how come I don't have that many downloads? How come, you know, how come I don't have a four-wheel drive sprinter van? I just have a RAM, right? Like you know what I mean? For sure. Meanwhile, I was completely happy five minutes ago with everything.

How come all my friends are going on these fancy vacations? You know, why is you know, and I think what people have to realize is what they see on social media isn't necessarily true. It's it, you know, it's the fancy packaging, but they don't know what's inside that box. All they see is the the you know, the the pretty bow on the end, but they don't know all the all the turmoil that's going inside. So um, yeah, we have a comparison problem in this society where we're always comparing ourselves to other people. And I don't do a lot of social media. Um, I and I I choose to do that for a reason. Um, because I like my my world, I love my family, I love my job. So I don't need to go out there and compare myself to others. I I'm happy and I'd rather just be happy than deal with all that noise that's on on social media.

Yeah, and we always compare up. We never compare down, right? For sure. Yeah, well, of course, right? That's the key. And uh um awesome. That's great messaging, man. So what I mean, is there anything, you know, today's recording is the 20th of September in 2019. Does uh NASM have anything big coming down the pipe that you guys are are getting the word out on, or what's what's in store?

Yeah, we gosh, um I always like to say I'm drinking from a fire hydrant. Yeah. Um we have lots of projects that were going on. We just launched our certified nutrition coach, so I'm gonna give a plug. Um that was a year in the making, a little bit over a year in the making. We had 20 of the best authors help with this, and it was a really cool course. I think it's going to revolutionize nutrition education. It's good. Um there's 45 different videos, and we we went above and beyond. We had videos in grocery stores, in restaurants, in kitchens. We had cooking videos with professional chefs, um, and it teaches all the science and nutrition. It teaches all about behavior change and coaching. So that's one of the courses I'm most proud of that that we built. Um I'm working on another product right now, can't say what it is. Um, one of my colleagues is working on another product, unfortunately, I can't say what it is. Um and then uh we have a mobile app that's um it's already out there and we're doing continuous updates for that, which I think will it's gonna be pretty cool. Uh but yeah, look for look for bigger, better things the end of this year and then next year as well from NASM as far as more courses. Um, we're gonna start diving into some bigger and better topics that uh, you know, that we're trying to meet the the fitness professional where they're at. And we go out and we we we ask, we do a lot of market research. What do you want to learn about? What's what interests you? Um, and it's interesting because everyone has their own niche, you know. So some person could be working with obese clients where another person says, I only work with tennis players. Okay. So we have to take all that data and then figure out what's the best course of action. But we got some really cool, cool projects in the works.

Interesting. I love the uh I love how everything's kind of secret still. Yeah. Um where uh where do people find you, man? If people want to get a hold of you when they ask you questions, where do they go?

Sure, sure. Um, my email is uh just my name. So it's Brian, B-R-I-A-N dot Sutton, S-U-T-T-O-N at N A S M.org. That's my work email. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I'd say that's my social media outlet um because it's just more professional. Uh so yeah, anyone can find me there. Um, I'm always happy to take in feedback, answer questions. Um, if anyone has any feedback regarding our courseware, you know, the curriculum, what we could do better. I'm I'm always happy to engage in those type of conversations. Um and then yeah, my my next big venture is I start my doctorate degree next year. So that'll be fun.

Just a couple of things. Just a few things. Yeah, man. Well, Brian, thank you so much. It's been really educational. Um, no pun intended. It's awesome. So uh yeah, man, thanks for coming on. I appreciate your time.

I I appreciate you having me. And uh next time you speak to Ben and Doug, tell them I said hi.

I will, absolutely. Ladies and gentlemen, Brianstone. Thank you, sir. Hey Fitness Fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel, our fitness marketing alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge, that's a big deal for us. And we're we put a lot of work into these episodes, uh, trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness MarketingAlliance.com.