Matthew Januszek - The Art of The Interview & Differentiating In the New Normal

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Thank you very much for inviting me on. And uh congrats on the uh good work you're doing. We're just saying off camera, I had Julian Barnes message me. He was on your podcast the other day. And I'm I'm I'm so I'm seeing you all over the place. So you're you're doing a great job.

Yeah, likewise, and you too, man. I I want to recognize, you know, uh your podcast, the you know, Escape Your Limits podcast is is we've both been doing this for a little while. We were just joking about like, man, this took a lot longer than I thought. And it's a lot of work. And uh yeah, I guess let's let's start with that. I mean, well, let's start with a quick introduction, you know, because people can go back and I think I interviewed you about two years ago. Um, and we talked about some general, you know, principles of entrepreneurship and your backstory and um, you know, your relationship with your father and business and you know who he was to you and the business that you've created um is is tremendous. I mean, it's it's it's a great success story. And I also know that, you know, a business like yours um couldn't have not been affected by COVID um due to you know what happened in gyms and things like that. So maybe give us a little bit of update, you know, what's been going on the last two years um of your life.

Yeah, it's it's um it's been a it's been crazy. I I um I went to Ursa uh last week in Dallas and it was the first, it was quite funny because it well, the week before I was in New York, um, and then the week after I was in Ursa, and it was quite interesting because um just before the pandemic, I was in New York on a call to uh Rob Barker, who is the president of Pre-Corp prior to the whole Peloton thing, and and we um we were deciding whether we were gonna go to Ursa, and I called I was gonna few friends and I called him up. I said, Look, what are you doing, Rob? Are you gonna go or not? Because we were trying to decide what we did. And he says, Oh, we just put a communication out, we're not gonna be going, we don't think it's right. Um, and and that was that was almost the week before Ursa. And then I went to Ursa, although it was a different time in the year. I went there last week, and it was it was the first time really for two years that I've been to a trade show and met people, and um and you know, it was it's interesting because I I think so much has happened uh in in a relatively short space of time. I think I I remember that call, I remember exactly where I was standing, where I was walking along Broadway on the call. So it's quite funny to sort of see, you know, imagine how things were before and what I was planning, um, you know, arranging this show and thinking about our business, and then kind of, you know, this thing that people thought was going to go on just for a few weeks ended up going on for two years, and and then seeing people afterwards, and you know, like the devastation in some respects, you could consider what what the show was like um before and after, and and then people that that you met, and um, you know, people that uh unfortunately and very sadly are not here anymore. And you know, it's been it's been it's been crazy really. Um and there's been some real positives, I think, um, in life and business, and obviously there's been some you know a lot of a lot of tragedies really, but I I think people have have learned a lot, changed a lot, and um and and yeah, I I yeah for for me I've I've I've been very fortunate. It's it's been um a positive experience, even though the business side's been extremely tough, but it it's caused us to think differently, um learn things, do things differently, not take things for granted. Um so I suppose from my perspective, it it's been it's been a great time, um, certainly from my own family's perspective, and it's something I'm I'm very grateful happened because I think it kind of put a bit of a reset on on life. You just feel as though you're getting on a bit of a treadmill. But you know, obviously I also feel for uh you know a lot of people that you know that that haven't uh had that sort of fortunate situation like I have.

Yeah. Well, what what is um you know, for you personally, you mentioned you slow down a little bit. What does that mean exactly? Do you just take less time traveling? Do you spend more time with the family? What what does that mean for you?

Yeah, I I I don't think I slowed down my working tempo. In fact, for the first 12 months, I think I'd probably worked more and harder than what I'd ever done. Um it was just at home and it was probably a lot more efficient and effective. Uh I did I did slow down on the traveling. I used to be um, I live in the West Coast, I'm in California. I used to travel back to Europe pretty much every four to six weeks. So um, we we we used to we have a a business operation in Asia, so I used to go out there once a year. So there was a I was always felt as I was on the road. And I don't think you realize how much wasted time that you have because you're you're traveling to airports, you're waiting in airports, you're waiting for flights, you're on flights, you're recovering from flights, you're the there's so much time where you're not effective and um and you're in a constant state of of sort of recovery and and trying to stay fit and healthy. And and so I I think from that perspective, it's it's certainly caused me to say, well, it is all of this necessary, are there other ways to do it? I do feel that being out, I went to a to the trade show last week and seeing people in New York the week before. I don't think you can replace that. It's so powerful when you actually get to sit in front of somebody and have a real conversation and do the stuff that doesn't go on on a Zoom call. I I don't think you can ever replace that and and and be as quite as effective as that, you know, when it comes to forming deep relationships and coming up with creative creative ideas. But I think I certainly think it's probably it it's controlling that a little bit more and being a lot more thoughtful about how and when you do it, and and then also a lot of the other stuff, which probably isn't as necessary, is is probably you know, thinking about other ways of doing it. So so yeah, to answer your question, probably more time with the family and and and just um probably being more considerate about how to how you can be more effective as a business person and a I suppose a head of a family, right?

Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think that uh, you know, the ability to have more virtual meetings, um, the fact that it's now become normal and accepted and not lazy, right? I think a lot of times maybe we look past, you know, two years ago, we're like, well, it's just kind of lazy just to do a Zoom call or a phone call, like go meet the person, right? But now it's more accepted. So you can kind of take the things that maybe were really unnecessary for travel and you know, replacing that with a virtual um, you know, solution. But then the things that you do do, like going out to MERSA, URSA, sorry, they're uh it's it's much more meaningful and impactful. People are really excited to be there, right? I mean, I know my good friends, you know, Emma Berry, Stefan Sildner, a lot of people were there and they reported back to me about Ursa and how it was. And, you know, I think people were just thrilled to be out and meeting in the flesh.

Yeah. I do, I do think though, it's uh because I've I've been my my brother and I, who's my business partner, were talking about it the other day. And there's a lot of a lot of sales trainings. We we have a company we work with, and and there's there's people talking about now how this is the new way of selling and and how you can use and be more effective on on Zoom and the digital side of things, encouraging people to do it more. But I I I I think um I think for people that are probably their their businesses are in you know business to business um and and sales used to be face to face. I do think that you've got to be careful of of sort of allowing that um to go too extreme on that. And I think people that are prepared to get out, it it is it is an effort, and not people don't necessarily always want to see you, but I do think that now there's a kind of window where it's like look, nobody's still traveling, people don't necessarily want to go out. A lot of people have got comfortable also with saying, oh, I can do this from home. Um whereas I think if if you're one of the few that does make the effort, you are one of the few. And and there's there's definitely advantages over that because the majority of people are not going to do it. So I guess it's like anything in business. It's kind of trying to look at the situation and and try and you know, look at what the crowd is doing, and then then try and do the opposite and and use that sort of as a as a little bit of a head start on on whatever else is going on.

Yeah, isn't that funny? That's like now travel. If you're willing to meet someone in person, you are the outlier. Strange times, man. Um, I do want to talk about your podcast because you know, as we were kind of laughing and chatting um, you know, before the recording, is I think we're both going on the four-year mark. I think I have mine hits in November, yours hits in December, right? Um, and I urge people to go check out your Escape Your Limits podcast, man. You have great guests. I'm always looking, I'm like, oh, how to get that person on that show? Um and uh it's it's I know it's it's been a lot of work. And I I guess I would like to just chat for a minute because I know there's a lot of people, I get reached out to people all the time who are starting new shows. Um, they have questions for me. I help long love helping people launch new podcasts because I know for me it's been such a fulfilling and um great tool for just meeting people and building networks and learning and building authority in a space and all the things you can do, but it's a ton of work, right? It's a ton of work. So I guess, you know, now that you're coming on four years and you reflect now, um, you know, hey, was it worth it? Um, all the time and energy you spent in it. What would you recommend to people who are getting to start it? And what immediately, like, and I know I'm throwing a lot of questions at you once, but what are some of the unexpected benefits that you've had um being a podcast host?

Yeah, I think when I went into it, I didn't really know what to expect. Um, I had a friend who's uh Rob Moore, he's a disruptive entrepreneur, also does a great podcast. Um so I had a good friend who sort of um encouraged me to do it um and you know took his advice. Um but did but didn't really um it was just like okay, look, this looks like a good idea. Couldn't figure out exactly how it fit in, but I I I knew and I listened to Gary V and he you know he talked a lot about the importance of it. So it was like, look, I'm gonna give it a try, I'm gonna give it 12 months and then sort of see where it is. Um there were so many things that I didn't know, I didn't know when I went into it, as I'm sure you will, like just how to how to interview someone is you, you know, I thought, okay, well, you just come up with some questions, you figure out how long you want to go, and and that's it. And and and it, you know, that took me, well, even to today, I'm still, I would say, a student of of how to do that well, because it's it definitely is uh an art and a skill, and and it's something that every single time you do it, you have to work at it. It's it's not it's it it's it's not easy. And the people that say, oh, you know, Joe Rogan or whoever, they just they just chat, you know, and it's like, well, that is why he's so brilliant, because that's what you think he's doing. Um, but it it's you know, he he's not he's not doing that, nor are many of the of the of the great people. And so to make it sound as though someone's just chatting is is uh is a skill that I you know I sort of still practice to this day. So so outside of learning how how to do it, I I think it was um it was also like, well, okay, you're you're gonna do this and you'll put this out there and you'll put it on social media and you'll it'll become very popular or you'll get good guests. And and again, that was something that I really underestimated. I'm sure and I know there are these success stories that just sort of blow up very quickly, but you know, it from what I've seen and the people I've spoken to that are able to see numbers, it's it's a it's a tiny, tiny percentage. My phone after very long. I don't know what the number of episodes is, but it's it's a very small number of episodes. There's a huge graveyard of of uh dead podcasts out there. Um and and uh yeah, and they certainly don't last for for four years, and they certainly don't get many listeners. So I so I I guess I under underestimated the amount of um work and effort that would go into actually creating something that people are aware of. Um, but I I think after we we were chatting about this, I think I think you know, after four years, I just feel as though I'm getting started, you know, I just feel as though it's is it's getting somewhere and um it's it's getting recognition and um you know you feel as though you're getting in the groove as a as a sort as a as a host. And and so I think for anyone that's going into it, um it's it's it's a very long commitment. And I I was talking about the podcast that Tim Frios did recently, which I recommend people checking out about podcasting. And he said, look, if unless you're unless you really, really, really, really love doing this, um then don't even start because there's people that do really do it and they're they're prepared to do it for years, regardless of the work and the money, and and you're never gonna compete if you go into it thinking that this is gonna be something that you'll do um from a financial perspective. Um and we can, you know, we could talk about all the other benefits. But yeah, I I think I could talk for hours on this. Um I wasn't sure you could, but but that that's kind of like first things that sort of come off the top of my head.

Yeah, it's great, man. I would love to dive dive into a little bit more of you know how you've evolved the the art of the interview as well, because I I have, and I I know that's something that people ask me about too. And you probably get this, you know, as people want to be prepared as a guest, they ask, Hey, what questions are you gonna ask me? And I'm like, I don't know yet. And uh, you know, but I try to give them some kind of framework so they feel good and confident going into the show. And, you know, when uh when people ask me to about starting a podcast, I always ask, Well, you know, are you willing to commit for five years? And I think that's minimum. And, you know, I I look at it as a way of like, and we just built a new home. We moved in a few months ago, and uh, you know, the next stage is my podcast studio above the carport. Um, because I want to do this for the rest of my life, man. I don't care if nobody's listening. That's the secret. Like, I really don't care. I have I've released episodes that no one's even heard or seen, probably. And uh, you know, it's just a lot of fun. And, you know, I think you're right, like the constant challenge, like you people look at Joe Rogan, who's probably the one I listen to the most, Lewis Howes. I'd be curious, you know, Tim Ferriss is obviously brilliant. Um, but they make it sound so easy and so natural where it's just like, hey, I'm just in a room listening to these guys talk, right? Or these people talk. And I'd be curious, is there any principles or things that you've evolved with? Like when people ask you, how do you become a great interviewer? What do you tell them? Is there any what have you learned about that art?

Well, I'm yeah, I'm like I say I'm still learning, and sometimes people will say, Well, you you ask good questions. And I I I um yeah, I I always question myself and doubt myself because I listen to some of the great people and I'm like in awe about how they how they can do that. But I've definitely I've definitely got better over four years. And I I guess where where I'm at now is I kind of I I I have a mental sort of one hour-ish, you know, it's probably one to one fifteen, but that that's you know, my head, I'm I'm kind of I set myself up for that. Um and some people are like Joe Rogan's two or three hours. Um, but for me, that's like, okay, I can I can I've I've got to look at that. And if you think about it, um that's that's not far off a feature-length movie which which someone spent millions and millions of dollars to. So you're competing with the next Star Wars or James Bond movie in terms of people's attention. But so you gotta appreciate that, that they're they're committing that time which where they could be doing something else. And that's so that's a big responsibility in it in itself, I think. And and anyone that can get someone to listen to that long is is definitely doing a great job in itself. Um, and then I suppose what I try and do is to say, well, look, because it's very easy to you you can burn through an hour and talk about nothing. And I'm I'm I'm you know, I've learned that, and I'm sure you you've learned that as well. And um and so People are sitting there listening, and yes, they're talking, but what are they really saying? So I I try and sort of think, well, how can I pack as much value into that hour? Um, being mindful that some people have long answers, some people have short answers, um, some people go off track. There's there's all kinds of different things there. But I I want to try and sort of say, look, when I leave this, that there's gonna be some sort of message that people are gonna feel in a different place to where they came in. And and part of that is trying to keep the the tempo up throughout it, you know, kind of if if things are slowing down and getting boring, it's like okay, you try and control that. Um, and then I I think probably most importantly is is preparation. Whilst the way you say your questions and how you cut in and how you get it flowing, that that's definitely something you can you you have to polish and and deal with over time. But I think if you can kind of get that for me, you know, understand well, who is the guest, what's a what's it, what's the sort of general direction that we want to go in, like you say, not necessarily knowing what any of the questions are, but trying to get a little bit of a theme, know enough about the guest and what they're doing and what they're about and what's important to them to be able to then use that as needed. Um, because I think some people just go into podcasts, not know anything about it, and I I think that's a little bit lazy. So I I I spend quite a few hours prep preparing for it. And a lot of it I don't need, a lot of it never ever ever comes up, but I just like to feel that I've got my sort of I've downloaded a bunch of stuff to my hard drive in my head, and and I can sort of pull on things as you know, if someone says something, it's like okay, right, we can go here. And and so I think it's probably a combination of of a bit of structure, but also um not too much structure where it can go in a really interesting direction that you hadn't thought of, and and and it can you know be something that you yeah, you never really imagined. So that that's kind of where I am in my head.

Yeah, yeah, it's great. I mean, I I just I love getting insights on that from people who have been actually in the trenches doing the work. How how often do you release your show?

I do it once a week. Um, and I've I've tried diff, you know, I've I've I've tried all the I've listened to people who do this and read books about it. And there's there's a number of different ways, as you know, that that you can do it. There's there's great some people are super structured. I've been on a lot of shows and they're just same questions every week. Some do 20 minutes, 30 minutes. There's so many different formats, I think. And this is really important as well, um, because what I've just said happens to work for me, Matthew Janizek, and who I am, and where I'm strong, and where I'm not strong, and how good my memory is and all that sort of stuff. You know, someone else may just have a photographic memory and and can do things differently. So I think probably it the message that someone can take away from this is try and understand through practice who you are. Um, and then when you know who you are and who you're gonna be in a show, you you might be the funny one, you know, you might be the entertainer. I'm not. So once you when you understand who you are and what place you play, then you you sort of build a show around you rather than trying to be Joe Rogan or Tim Ferris or you know, Rich Roller or whatever people you listen to. I think you you've got to just spend that time discovering you, what and because people are people are gonna comment on on you, on who you are. They're gonna I like you because of. So if you're not authentic, then then you know at the end of the day, you're the one that's that's that that's partly the attraction of why people listen in because of you are so so trying to be someone else that you're not is is gonna make it's gonna be a longer road to sort of get to something. Um, because you yeah, and I and I I think that's probably the mistake I made, and a lot of people make in their early days, is is you know, not being and you may not be in themselves, but you and you also may look at yourself and think, well, I've not got anything. I've what's what's interesting about me. That's that's what I said. Well, I would want to pick people listen about it. But I think um, you know, don't necessarily beat yourself up. There are things that you are good at that maybe nobody's told you or you're not recognized, but but just working on that and and not believing your own negative voice um is probably what you want to try and do.

Yeah, yeah, really well said, man. One more question on the podcast stuff and then we'll and then we'll move on. I mean, I you know, you and I could talk about this forever, but um, and this is kind of like asking a parent who their favorite kid is. But who's been, you know, in in your memory, because you've done over 200 episodes now, which is an incredible feat. Um not the the highest ranking or most downloads necessarily, but the one, what are one one or two episodes that you've enjoyed personally the most?

I I think for me, I I uh I've I've since I used to do all face-to-face. Um, and then since the pandemic, I've done a lot of of Zoom ones. Um, and I I did still mix in some face-to-face. And I I think the ones that I enjoy when I can when I can sit in front of someone, I just think there's an energy and and a lot of and then and there's a pressure. Um, like even with notes, like when I'm doing, when I'm sort of not doing it remotely, I can kind of have stuff down here, and I'm I I think it kind of takes some of the pressure off when you're in a room with someone and a camera person and you know, three cameras around you, and and you've met them for the first time, it it you you the pressure level seems to go up, but um it seems to sort of bring something out in a in a different way. So I so I think for me, um I think the when I do face-to-face, um, that is is just a different experience, and I enjoy that. And I'd like to, like you talked about your podcast studio, I'd like to be able to do more of that. And and I know even it was nice to hear Tim Frois say that um unless you're Joe Rogan, if you if you only limit yourself to face to face, you're gonna struggle to get guests because people don't travel. You know, for him they'll travel, but most people don't. So you can't build a podcast just on that. Um, but it it it is a unique experience, and I'd recommend um checking that out. And in terms of guests, I I think um I and you asked this question in the beginning, you know, what what's some of the benefits of doing it? I think for me, a lot of the guests and the subjects are quite personal. So I I'm I I'm I'm on a sort of personal development journey. I have been for many years, you know, since I started doing Tony Robbins you know, sort of 20 or something years ago. So I I like to develop myself personally, and and for me, it's almost kind of being having uh I think the Americans call them a Rollodex, but having a sort of phone book or whatever of all the all of your sort of dream people that you'd like to meet one day or that you you know that inspire you that have done great things, and having this book of people on speed dial, and it's like can we have a chat for an hour? Because I've got these things I'm trying to figure out in my head, and being able to sort of you know ask them whatever questions that you're dealing with, and and and even stuff that's very, very relevant and personal, and you can kind of speak to people, and then it's not only it's just a selfish thing, but you can kind of share those challenges with you know however many people are able to listen to it. Um I think all of them for me, I don't think there's many where I've not gained something personally um that's sort of helped me either support an idea or deal with uh an insecurity or give me a little bit of a boost and and encouragement and motivation. And and that's and and and you know, when I when I'm sort of going into them, I'm I'm sort of looking at it from that perspective to say, look, you know, what what have I learnt about that person? That what's the missing bit that when I've studied that person, I I can't figure out, you know, like what's that bit that doesn't make sense in their story or or it doesn't cover in their book? You know, what what are the bits outside of what they're talking about, which which is really the bit that I need I want to learn? You know, it's like okay, you've been very successful and you've done this in five years, you've done that, but you know, I'm trying that, I've done that, and and and you know, I just don't get how you've done that. You know, this this bit for me is very confusing. Can you sort of talk me through what you did here? And then I find that a lot of people have some of those similar challenges, and so that's yeah, I don't know if it answers your question.

Yeah, well, uh kind of, but I'll don't worry, I'm gonna dig into it one more time. Um, but I think you're right. It reminds podcasting reminds me of when you know I was in third grade, you know, I was so scared to ask the the quote unquote dumb question because people would think I'm an idiot. But meanwhile, when you do ask that question, you realize everyone had the same one. And that's like the I try always like look at it as an av, I want to be an advocate for my audience because if I'm not quite getting something, hey, I'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, right? Um, I never claimed to be. Um, but you know, I think I can answer ask questions that I'm just not clarifying on. And and and then you're getting more value for the audience, which is ultimately what you're talking about, is you want to be an advocate for your audience and getting gleamy as much value for that hour that they're gonna give you, you want to give it back. And uh I think that's really important. So um to get more pinpointed, is give us one interview that you've done recently or the last year that you really enjoy. Because I want to give the listeners something to go and look at in particular.

Yeah, well, I I there's a lady like again, there's so many different stories depending on what you're interested in. But there's a lady called Stacy Kokus. She um my wife actually it wasn't the per it wasn't a choice of mine, and I said it at the beginning of the interview. My wife chose her, and our podcast is about escaping your limits, so it's about people that have escaped their own mental and personal limits and and and gone on to sort of achieve whatever their goals are. And so my wife chose this lady, and and um, and so I read read her her book, watched a bunch of interviews, and I'm like, I said to her, look, this is really, really tough for me. One, it's it's a tough story, and two, I I I just I found it difficult to to connect because it was such a painful sort of situation. And so we we I did the preparation and she was she's absolutely a wonderful lady. Like I just the courage that she has is just so much more than than what I am as a human being. You know, I could I could just never go through it. But she she was uh she was a swimmer, she was um at a family event, um uh was practicing diving, dived off the diving board one time to get this perfect dive, hit a head on the bottom, and and she was paralyzed, I think from the shoulders down, uh, in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. Um and and and this lady's story was just, you know, it it yeah, as I said, it was difficult for me to even read it because I was trying to put myself in in her shoes and think what I would have done. And yeah, I you know, I I certainly wouldn't be here now um if I if I was her. And and she got to that stage. And and so yeah, wonderful story. Um, very different to what I, you know, what I the people I'd spoke to. And there'd been some successful people in business and and in athletes, but you know, what this lady did and is is just and and and her outlook on life is is just you know, to this day, how she approaches challenges is is is just phenomenal. Um so yeah, that that has probably been one of my top ones.

Awesome, awesome, man. I'll I'll go check it out for sure this week. Um, so kind of moving on to like I guess more industry type stuff. I know, you know, from the nature of your business, um, I mean, primarily uh you guys build gyms and sell equipment, right? Is that kind of something escape fitness? And that that's that, you know, just with the what's happening in gyms, I'd imagine it came with a lot of challenges. But you also mentioned previously that you know you started to add more of a consultancy to you know aspect what you guys are doing at Escape Fitness. So I'd be curious to learn about that and then um the insights you have, because you mentioned that you know, helping businesses now in this industry kind of differentiate in this new, I guess, environment that we're in is is interesting to me. And so tell us about how you've kind of pivoted a little bit more into consultancy and then what you're starting to see for your clients and how you're offering value and in and providing that the insights and differentiation.

Yeah, I I think it's it's always been an important thing for business to be able to differentiate themselves. But I think if you look at the fitness industry, um it's and probably lots of businesses really. I um it's I think people have sort of got had got into a bit of a rut, and there was a there were so many Me Too products out there. And um, and I think maybe because the the the space had been growing that that sort of decently run businesses could could get by and and do pretty well and and and sort of hang on. And and I'm I'm not talking about small businesses, there's some huge brands within our industry that are that were in that category. And and um a lot of them have had to sort of fold and refinance and restart up. And and and my guess is that COVID's probably just sort of exposed some of the weaknesses in these operations, particularly some of the bigger ones where they're you know able to get access to a lot of capital and to sort of keep almost like put businesses on a on a bit of a life support machine to keep going. Um and um and and I think for all of us, you know, we we look at our business and and it has been pretty tough. And and just to get through, um, you know, you you've got to be, if if anyone's still here now, and I believe there's still quite a way to go, that you've you've done a great job uh at getting here because that you know dealing with something like a pandemic is is extremely tough. So now it's a case of okay, well look, we're still we got through all of us, um just about something, but you know, a lot of us are here. So it's like, okay, so where do we go next? And I I I certainly don't believe, and and speaking to a lot of people at the the show last week, I I don't believe it's a case of well, now the pandemic's over, we've all been vaccinated, we've all got masks, and people are gonna come rushing back and everything's back to normal. I think there has been some cases where there's been this little surge, but in general, I think it's gonna be a long, hard slog for certainly through next year. Um, I'd I'd be surprised if it if it's gonna recover that quickly because there's so many other things going on in the world um that are also um economic pressures on on everything from supply chains to cost of goods, inflation, there's there's all these kind of issues, shortage of labor, there's everything that's impacting every every different industry. So from that reason, I think it's gonna be it's gonna be a probably a long, longer, slow recovery than than people expected. That that's my goal. Um, I hope it isn't, but I I think you've got to prepare for that. So, with that said, it's you you've got to for the businesses that are around, um, then they have to be so much better than everybody else, because there's probably not as much to go around as what there was before. There may be not as many competitors as what there would before, which is a good thing. And there may not be as many people as what there would was before, which is probably a good thing. Because if you're one of the last men standing, just because of that, you're, you know, you you're gonna be doing quite well just because you're here. So I certainly think there's a lot to say in shut up. I think that's probably more so than than ever. Um, and I I was chatting to someone the other day about this, is like, you know, the ones that are the survivors that, you know, they may not be the best, um, but they're they're they've got the persistence and the determination to sort of hang in there. And I I think there's there's there's some good opportunities for for them, you know, just just just just enduring it through. But in general, what where to come back to your question, where we're helping people is just trying to get them to think about their products. It it's it's a lot of um instant reaction is is like, okay, look, nobody's got any money, let's go cheap, let's sort of cut back on everything, um, reduce the costs, and and and we're gonna build a business based on price, stripping everything out, and that's it. But I think now people have got so many good options. I I think they've um they've they've created other habits, um, they've found other places to go. I know myself where I live, I've I've gone to so many different places than what I used to go, just because things had been closed in the past and I, you know, start and finish in different times. So I've searched out and I've found other really, really good places and better times to be with my family and nicer experiences. So I think you've got to, it's no good say, well, I'm just gonna open and I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it cheaper and I'm gonna cut my costs, and that's how I'm gonna survive. I I think you've got to be coming back better. I think you've got to to get people through, you've got to find a way of making more investment, raising the quality, raising the standards, being more innovative. Um, and you've got to give people a bloody good reason to come back. Because um I chat, I've got a friend at Peloton, I chatted to them, and and they would, you know, they explain the ins and outs of that product and what makes that so successful. And whether you agree with Peloton or not, doesn't matter. I don't use it, I don't like it, it's not the type of training that I that I that I do. But without a doubt, it it's tapped into kind of millions of people that weren't exercising. And from what I understand, that experience, that music, that personalization, those trainers, it's phenomenal what these guys have done. And they're not even technically from the fitness space. So I think for people in the industry, it's like, look, you've got a hell of a lot more competition than you had before. That's a fact. And that's not in other gyms, that's that's people who don't want to go, that's Netflix, that's restaurants, that's people like Peloton. So you so you've got to get very creative with the money that you've got, and you've got to create a much more compelling experience. And I my view is that the people that have got that real genuine value are the ones that are going to succeed. And the ones that can't make that case, I think are going to be the first ones that that will probably go.

Yeah, really good, really good answer, man. And I can tell you put a lot of thought into it. And as of hi, I mean, you know, I ask questions on my podcast alone, I ask people questions all the time of like, hey, what's I guess here's uh uh even a more clear question to you is as you kind of look forward, like what do you think the future of gyms is gonna look like from like you know, you could talk about maybe a couple avatars to give you some clarity, but like, you know, a larger health club compared to like a boutique gym, you know, how are those experiences gonna be different? And then um a question I always like to uh ask on this is you know, what what kind of technology and fitness health are are you the most excited about?

Okay, so I'll I'll go to the I'll sort of answer those two two separately and sort of remind me if I if I forget anything.

Yeah, I like to ask people three questions at once.

So I think um the first thing is look, what what what's what's it gonna look like? I would say this there's always gonna be a place for a kind of low-cost model. But I when I say low cost, I don't mean low value. Um I mean there's there's some there's some great sort of low-cost operators that are providing a fantastic level of value at a very, very low price. And I think people get confused with the two. I did an interview with a guy called uh Victor Brick, uh, he's planet, he's with Planet Fitness, one of their sort of most successful groups. Um, you know, check out what he says about low cost, and and and people get confused with with what they're doing, um, why they're doing it, and then they try and replicate that model and they totally lose actually what they've done and why they've been so successful. But there's a number of people around the world like that. But I think there's a low cost that provides high value and and and and probably a better way is is is um is um, yeah, I well it's it's probably probably low cost is is not the right definition for what they do or the smart ones, what they do, but I think there'll always be a place for those. But I think if if if uh people are going into business and think that it's just about the $9.99 price point, then you're gonna fail. Uh there's there's got to be so many more elements to that, and and and they've got to be operationally excellent to make that whole thing work. Um, and and I think there's a place in the market for those. But the but the the the ones that are sort of imitating that, thinking that the goal is about prices are gonna definitely fall pretty quick. I think there's gonna be a model for that. Um, I think the boutiques and that type of concept, you know, they're not necessarily the just limited to a 3,000 square feet box, but I I think that idea of a boutique concept, high touch, high experience. Um, I think that model will continue to evolve. Um it is very personalized, it's it's it's gonna be very tribal, it's gonna be very experience-based. So you're you're not just gonna go there because you want to work out. There's there's a number of things that will probably attract you into that. I I was with the guys um in New York um who have got the boxing concept grip, uh the ones with pit bull, and and chatting to him. And you know, he's you know, there's a there's a bar in there, it's it's nightclub and and and fitness studio, really good concept, but you you're not just going there to have a workout, you're going there for much more. So I can see that developing maybe bigger studios or whatever, but I think there's definitely a place there and there's an attraction for that. Um and I'm kind of hopeful that um, and I well, and I do believe this. I've I've got, in fact, I was just sort of on the phone to him earlier, Angel Banyos, which which is Gold's Gym, operates in the sort of more mid market space. And I and I think there's there's a There's a time and place for these guys to up their game. You know, certainly a lot of people in that space have probably not really figured out who they are or where they should be, and probably ended up with being a little bit of nothing. Um, but I think now there's an opportunity to provide a value that the low cost can't, uh a um, a solution that the boutiques can't. Um, but done very, very well. They're able to charge certainly more of a premium than the low cost, and maybe getting close to the boutiques as well. But I think there's gonna be a good place for those as well. But I I think you know that that one in the middle is probably um that could be the most expensive and most difficult to sort of get right because there's so many elements to it. And I think really the the very, very smart operators are gonna be the ones that can, in my view, and when I talk to people that are successful in that space, I think I think you've got to be a super sharp cookie, you've got to have so many different skills around it to create that experience. I I think the people who have done a nice job um of that are the guys at Midtown in Chicago, and there's others out there, but uh Richard Ernie, who I work with out there, he's been able to almost create like a boutique within a mid-market big box club. Done a very, very almost like a kind of department store. So I don't know how well they're doing, but they're you know extremely thoughtful about every different element within it. Beautiful club. Um, but I I I think I think um you know that that's gonna that's gonna be a lot harder to succeed. So I know it's not it's not necessarily anything different than what's out there before, but I think the way that those different price points and solutions are put together, I think are gonna require a much higher level of expertise. But if you can do it, then you know that each one of those can be fantastic businesses that if you can afford it, you'd probably want to be a member of all three. Um, the second part of your question was in terms of technology. I I think this space is is is fantastic. I was never really a tech person. I spoke to a lady called Natalia from the Fit Tech Summit, I believe. Um did an interview with her a little while ago.

They are now officially partners of this podcast.

So well, yeah, that's that's um how could I forgot that? Yeah, and you're you're on the board as well.

Yeah, I am, yeah, yeah. So thank you for that. That was unsolicited, yeah.

And that was unplanned as well. But I I chatted to to Natalia, who's wonderful, super educated in that space, and um, and we we had a great conversation and she she sort of opened my eyes up to to what's happening in that world. And and and I do think that um I do think that you know it it's it's part of you know that this has got to come from the inside out for a lot of businesses. It's probably a big shift, but I think being able to sort of you know be more of a of a I don't know what the word is, but a sort of more of a IT integrated solution where you're able to understand what's going on in your business. And it is difficult, the bigger, bigger the business, the more complicated it is, but but being able to have that data about what's going on, and then being able to kind of interact with other platforms and technologies, whether it's your Aura Ring or whether it's your My Zone or whatever, whatever it is out there, connected cardio, and being able to sort of pull all that together, understand what's going on in your business, um, uh to then serve up that personalization to people is is again really where it's going to go. Now, that is for me, that's a massive shift, a long journey. It's not something that people can just turn on straight away. But I I think if if as an industry um there's there's people out there and it's phasing the amount of tech companies now that's coming into the space, you can see it on the consumer side. But I think I think with these people coming in and then looking at the at the gym space and and and with with their perspective on the world and saying, well, look, you know, why why are you guys doing it like this? That you know, don't you realize what is is possible if if a business was created from the inside out and you would you were to build the bricks around this sort of engine, how much of a competitive advantage you've got. So I do think that I think it's difficult to bring probably a a you know a tech company into an existing business. I think that that's probably a tough one, but not impossible. But I I could definitely see some of these big tech companies building these solutions from the inside out, because it's probably a lot easier to do that. And then I think the the experience, the integrated experience could could be phenomenal. Like you imagine if Amazon as an example, or Apple theater fitness and health and wellness facility, you know, like you imagine how that could be the personalization, the data that you could get. Whether you want them to have that or not is is a different question. But just you know, that like you'd probably want to go to an Apple studio because of the how connected you could potentially be with that. You know, maybe that's a podcast on its own.

Yeah, it definitely is. And I uh I agree. It's it's something, and you know, I think people need to have that thought. Like, what happens if Apple does open a studio or Google? I mean, Google kind of already does. I mean, you look at like you know, their headquarters, you know, I talked to Jonathan Puskis at uh at Exos and he works with Google and some of the things they're they're already doing. And I think it it's important that um in the industry we have to understand this stuff could be coming down the pipe. We almost have to be a little paranoid because that makes us more motivated to acknowledge the technology and maybe start to adopt it in our own and creative ways because it's just here. I mean, uh most people I know have a wearable now. My wife was non-tech and then she got her first garment wearable and she loves it. She can't live without it. She's always checking her sleep and her body battery and all this stuff. And I know people who are completely against, you know, um, this stuff. And now they have a whoop and they're just fired up about it, right? And they they can't live without it. And it's become, you know, I think more and more people who um, you know, the early adopter phase is gone. Now it's coming into mass adoption. And what do we do with all that? Uh, it's really interesting. And then the business intelligence side of things that you mentioned earlier, too, is like, yeah, if we could start to get really pinpointed on, you know, retention analytics and you know, why people are coming in and why they're leaving and when they're ready to be upsold and all this, all that data that's coming in, it's it's pretty exciting. And I know there's a lot of great companies. I'm sure you know eNickme.ai and um you know grousen and and Sundeep over at Scipio.ai, like all these companies are really on top of it. So it's uh I tell a story all the time because three years ago or so, I was kind of bored with the fitness industry. I'd been in it for you know a dozen years. It wasn't really changing a whole lot. And I was like, uh, maybe it's time for me to start venturing out and trying in some something new. And uh and then I guess the pandemic happened, and then technology started happening, all these changes, and it was like the accelerant of stuff that I thought was coming for a long time, and man, it came hard and fast, and uh, you know, just the adjustment. I think we're all still a little on our heels of how fast someone like Peloton came into the market and just dominated, dominated, right? It's crazy.

Yeah, and it's not to say that I suppose that not to say that Apple will do it, but it's it's a it's a visual representation of kind of like, well, imagine that as an idea, like you could you could quite easily get your head around what that would look like. And it's like, okay, well, well, why not sort of figure out, you know, reverse that and what could that look like for your business? And you know, that probably wouldn't make sense for them to do that. Um, but you know, you could certainly you could certainly see someone like Amazon probably having uh a reason to to do things like that, probably more on the medical side, I would say. But you know, that that that if that had if that was an announcement, I don't think anybody anybody would be that shocked if um if you saw that. And and I think as you said about adoption of things like Zoom, pre-pandemic, it was always there was a lot of people who just zoom, what's that? You know, why am I gonna do that sort of thing? There's a lot of people, particularly sort of older generation, that wouldn't have even considered it. But I think because of what's happened, now it's like, look, that's what it is. And and so I think you've it's it's forced the adoption. And then with COVID, COVID passports, I think a lot of countries around the world now, uh, I don't think they've got it here yet, but um it's quite funny. In America, you actually have to take your printed card when I went to New York. But when you in England, you'd think America would be a lot more advanced than that. But when you go to England, it's on a you've got a special app. Um, I don't know whether it's good or not, but everyone's got an app. So I suppose now you're having your health data, um data on your phone. That that that's created, uh, you know, someone's built the road, the network now for that to happen, which wasn't there previously. So it's like, okay, well, you've got your COVID vaccine on there. What else? What other health data can go into that NHS or medical app? Well, probably everything. So, well, well, why aren't you using it? You know, someone's already created the highway. And and so I think more and more things because I think it's it's it's because that highway's been built through things like Zoom, through things like COVID and your medical data and that, that that's there. And and I think now more and more people are gonna build on on those those roads, those platforms now, um, because they don't have to go through the effort of of trying to build a road. Because to build a road or an infrastructure, most private independent companies can't do that. Um, it's very difficult. You've got to be a major corporation. Whereas once someone's done it, a small entrepreneur can very easily jump on that road with a little truck and uh and use it wherever they want, you know. So so that I think there's so I think there's so many opportunities for sort of small businesses to take advantage of what some of the bigger companies have done. And I and whether you like it or not, or you agree with it or not, or you think it invades privacy or not, it is what it is, and we're not going to be able to stop it, unfortunately. You know, the governments are mandating all of these things. So it's like, okay, well, how can I how can I take advantage of what's gone on instead of just trying to complain about it? And I think there's a lot of, you know, we we spend so much time complaining about things that we can't affect and and alter that it's like, well, let's just focus on things that I can change and influence, as opposed to spending, which I think is one of the things that has happened through this, is that we we spend so much of our time, you know, trying to argue about stuff that you're not gonna be able to do anything about. So just move on.

Yeah, well said, Matthew. Well said, man. Um, yeah, I want to respect your time. And it's actually it's been about an hour. So it's uh, I mean, what's always great conversation seems to go in a blink of an eye. And uh, you know, I I really uh enjoy, I'm gonna make a uh a note to enjoy your podcast more often. Um, you know, I only get a couple, a little bit of time in the week to listen to them, but uh I know you have always have great guests, you always have insightful stuff, and um you're very thoughtful interviewers. So I really encourage people to go check out Escape Your Limits podcast. And then other than that, man, where uh where do you want people to go um online to find you or find more information about your company?

Yeah, you can um so escapefitness.com, that's our website. You can see a bunch of stuff like we spoke about in terms of the designs. If you need any help, just go on there, you can fill in your details and we'll connect you with one of our sort of one of our team to help out. Um, me personally, you can check me out on LinkedIn from a business perspective. I do some uh quirky stuff on Instagram if you want to follow me there. Um so those are probably like the two places. Um yeah, and uh, you know, if any any further follow-up questions, I'd love to just connect with me. I I try and get back to to to as many people as I can. Um, but yeah, you know, just just sort of hit me up and I'll uh love to love to chat if I can.

Right on, man. Well, uh let's not make it another two years. Let's get you back up soon.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's do that. That's good fun. I appreciate your conversation. I appreciate the work you've done. It's uh I I know um I know I know how much goes into it. So uh yeah, you're doing a great job for the industry. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you, Matthew.

Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This was your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Minutes. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it. iTunes, Spotify, Catbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in, a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because I put a lot of work into it and want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more or get in touch with me, simply go to the feature of fitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I'd love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Derek Mount, and this is the feature of fitness. Have a great day.