Intrinsic Motivators - The Key to Client Success - Josh Hillis

I think if we were a little bit more patient and a little more compassionate, we'd be a little more listening and we provided a little more structure, like we still provided structure, we were still behavioral inside of that. Um, we could help a lot, lot, lot more people. We'd have a better we'd be better known out in the world. I I I think I think everything could change.

What is up, fitness friends? Welcome back to the future of fitness podcast and interview series. This is your host, Eric Malzone coming at you from Whitefish, Montana. And wait, before you do anything, I need your help. If you just can give me one minute, uh, go to helpmypodcast.com. Uh helpmypodcast.com. There is a five or six question survey. Um, it's not anything salesy, it's not anything marketing. I just want to get your feedback on the show and find out more about you, the listener. Um, we're gonna make some changes in 2020 and uh really excited about those changes. Um not exactly clear on what they are yet, but that's where the survey comes in, right? I got some ideas, um, but I really, really want to know who you are, what you value, and uh continue to create more value for you. So please go to helpmypodcast.com and uh and fill that out. Greatly appreciate it. So this episode, uh Josh Hillis is back. Man, I uh I just really enjoy talking to Josh, basically. Um I mean, he provides a ton of great value. I mean, his his background, um you know, and how he approaches nutrition and and just really actually just behavioral change, right? And we talked a lot about intrinsic, extrinsic motivators, how to tap into those, how to get people to understand their values. It's a very, very powerful thing. I mean extremely powerful thing. If you are struggling to get you know clients to uh comply, right, then you're missing the boat, you're missing the whole fundamental of it all, is how do we get people intrinsically motivated? Extrinsic motivators, external stuff can be very powerful too, but really in the long term, how do we win over clients and get them the results they want over time is tackling the hard stuff, which is having them understand their values, getting in touch with those values and using those as motivators, and then showing them a better way. And Josh talks all about it. So yeah, awesome interview. Um, before we get on to it, uh two sponsors, we have level5mentors.com, so www.level, the number five mentors.com. And uh yeah, Ken and I are building a awesome coaching mentoring experience, really unlike any other. And uh if you're interested, and you line up with our values of what we call the five entrepreneurial freedoms being time, money, relationships, purpose, and health. Health does not last by any reason. It's probably the most important. It is the most important. If that's how you look at entrepreneurship in life, then you'll probably resonate with us and what we're what we do with people and how we help them. So go to levelfive mentors.com, take a uh take me up on a free 30-minute consult right there. You can just schedule it and uh we'll chat more about what you got. Also certifiedcoursecreation.com. So Kate and I have been doing this uh for well over a year now. We've produced some amazing and lucrative online uh accredited certifications, and you could be the next one. So we're looking for great partners for 2020. Um if you think you may be somebody who has a great idea, uh you know, something you've been working on for a long time that's different in the market, um, you want to start leveraging yourself, stop training your time for money, uh, put out a great informational product and you have an audience to back it up, then uh we'll help you take it the rest of the way. So go to certifiedcoursecreation.com and uh you can schedule another yet another way to schedule a meeting with me. Uh there it is. On to the episode number 165 with Josh Hillis. Enjoy the ride. We're live. Josh. Hey Hillis, welcome back, man. I'm uh so excited to have you. I think yeah, looking back at like, you know, I've done whatever, 165 episodes now. Yeah, I always look favorably upon yours because I don't think I've laughed that hard. Really? Yeah, I laugh really hard. Uh you're just like a fun guy to talk to and you're you're uh and very infectious with the way you think. And obviously, that being said, you obviously know a ton about what you're talking about. So double whammy.

Right. Well, I feel like that makes it more fun, also, right? Like you know, yeah.

So give us an update, man. It's been like uh, I don't know, I want to say about a year and a half. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds right.

What's been going on in your world? Um, a lot. Uh so two biggest things. Um uh writing a book, Lean and Strong, um, which uh sounds more workout-y than it is. It it's it's actually a lot of um a lot of food habit stuff and a lot of psychology, a lot of like contextual behavioral science um stuff, and then designing an eating skills program for GMB fitness. So um a lot of the eating skills and guidelines kind of things put into like into like video content, um, which is really new for me and like really different. Um actually both ended up being really different. Um this book was really different from the last book because I spent so much time on um research and like finding like uh readable ways to explain research. And that was like a whole other planet from what I've done before. So um really cool stuff and and also just like like new, like like video is super new, also.

Yeah. Well, your your first book, man, um Fat Los Happens on Mondays, right? So get the title correctly. Yeah. Uh I I suggest that to people like any fitness and health professional who's you know diving into the world of nutrition or anything, really, just behavioral change, period, right? Um, I think it's a must read. I've gotten the most out of it than you know any other nutrition book I've read. And I've used it in so many different aspects. Um like the the little thing, like, you know, a the tactic that you have in there is you know, instead of telling people, okay, hey, this week you're gonna work on your you know, macros, right? You're like, well, here's here's three or four things that you can we can work on this week. Which one do you want? Right. Like that that change in mindset of how you approach someone, like, oh, now they're bought in. Now we're a team. Yeah. Now it changes the dynamic. It's so powerful, dude.

Totally. It's um, I think it's powerful. I mean, I originally started doing that for buy-in, like like for people to get like really connected and involved in their program. Um, but I've also realized over the years that um they also have like a better idea of what's going on in their lives. Like they actually know what their obstacle, like no matter how much they tell me on a coaching call, like they know more about the obstacles and things that are going on and what they feel comfortable with and not comfortable with. Um, so I almost feel like it's kind of like a um it's kind of like a secret, like like they um they get to tell me because they they know more than I'll ever know. Right? It it makes it, it's so much more effective. And um, and then I don't have to be like a mind reader. I don't have to like try and figure out everything and be the super genius about every part of it. I can just like provide a structure.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's um it's just way less friction when you go about it that way with the client. You know, I think that's there's no pushback if they choose it. Right. Yeah, it's just it's it's brilliant. I mean, it's also I I find a lot of this stuff that you do, whether you know it or not, is kind of founded in like stoic philosophy, which is kind of my religion, really. Yeah. Um yeah, I love stoicism. Yeah, that and the other thing, there was one line from your last interview, which I still laugh about and quote all the time. You probably don't remember, but uh, I use it all the time. And it's like, just remember that you're probably only better than your client at one or two things. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was like, whoa, that was a hammer that hit me in the head and it's left a dent ever. You know, it's it's so it's so expand on that one thought, and then we'll get into what you're currently doing over more. So it's just um it's a mindset.

Anytime I see trainers get like really like on their high horse about fitness and stuff, I'm like, this is the only thing that that we're better than our clients at. Like, like everything else. I mean, like, if they can afford personal training, they're very successful in their careers, right? Um, and they're probably and they've got like great families, and like I've got a lot of clients that are like pillars in their the communities that they're parts of, and um like are on the board for charity. I mean, like they do they do so many things. They do like so many amazing things. And um, and so part of it's a way for like I think for fitness professionals, like for us to stay humble. And um I also think it works as a coaching tool where um they are successful at all these other things, and they tend to approach those things in a very different way from how they approach, say, like their food. Right? They approach nutrition like it's this totally different thing, um, that has different rules. Um where like everything else in their life, they were like kind of patient and they they've like clearly built skills and they know that they made mistakes and they, you know, like and so um so also if we can like borrow from these other things that they do really well at, then they can be like, oh, it's like that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's if you if you relate it to business, right? Like, oh yeah. You know, like how how long does it take you to create to create or build a a new business that you would deem successful? It doesn't happen in six months, doesn't happen in a year. It happens in multitudes of usually three to you know, 10 years, maybe. And if you approach, you know, have people like, hey, we're gonna make some changes in your life, right? But it's not gonna be happening overnight. And I think that uh ultimately comes down to what a lot of us would want to see would be more authenticity in marketing messages across the board in fitness, you know, yeah. Versus like, hey, we're not gonna change your life in six weeks. Yeah. Which is a struggle, right? It's a toll struggle. Because it works, because it works. Like from a marketing perspective, it works. And it gives us access to people's lives that we wouldn't have if we didn't use that message. But on the inside, as fit as professionals, we cringe a little bit, yeah, we do it.

Yeah, it's it's like how do we how do we meet people where they're at and like still be and still be authentic and and like honest about like like how do we make that balance? Like how do we strike that balance?

I don't know. I don't know yet, man. So give us some insights. So people who don't know you well, Josh, like what is your what is your expertise? What is your specialty? Where do you excel? What's that one thing that you're better at most of your clients?

Um working with emotional eating and snacking. That's that's the jam, right? For that's that's like everything that I'm about. Um, I mean, like I've I've been working on food behavior for a lot of years now, but I feel like um the clients that hire me now, mostly what they're dealing with is it's not about getting like the right diet or the right, you know, I mean, like if we can get like something generally healthy, they're um like handling their meals isn't the hardest part. It's like they they do have stressful jobs and kids and and community position. They've got like so much going on. And like, how do they how do they manage that um that that like feeling of stress before that really um that really hard meeting, you know, with their boss, or like before pitching a client, or before um, or like all their kids are sick and got them sick, and then their kids got better, and then they got better, and then their kids got them sick again. Like, and like all these things that that over time they've learned to use food to cope with. Right. And um, and that's that's that's the fun part is coming up with um with like guidelines and skills for like differentiating stress from um stress from hunger and skills for like like coping with stress, um, both in terms of like acceptance and in terms of self-care. Um and then uh yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well, there's a lot to unpack there. There's a lot. Yeah. Um be before we start recording too, you had mentioned that you've been really focusing on intrinsic motivation.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. I I would like to know. Well, first of all, let's let's define that term. Like what does that mean?

So um uh you could broadly you could look at two kinds of motivation. There's there's intrinsic and extrinsic. Extrinsic is um everything from like reward and punishment to it's it's like anything external, you know. So like like um like money, a prize, um An event, like a wedding. An event, yeah, uh status, um razor sharp abs, you know, like like all like all those things are extrinsic. Um and they are they are entirely valid forms of motivation. Um what people tend to find is that they are less robust um over the long term, right? Like people tend to, like it feels like they drop off if you hit a milestone and you don't get rewarded or punished punished. Um and they also drop off, like the motivation also drops off if you like aren't on track. Like if you're way ahead, it drops off, and if you're way behind, it drops off, right? Um, so in an intrinsic motivation would be like um essentially like the kind of person that I want to be. It's like me getting really clear about what my personal values are and um and taking actions in line with those values. And the cool thing about that is that um we tend to want to be the kind of person that we want to be, whether it goes well or whether it goes poorly. Right. And um, and so like a good example is like like almost all my clients are parents, and like they want to be good parents, and that's intrinsic. And they want to be good parents when everything goes well, and they want to go, they want to be good parents when having a disaster. They um it they they want to be good parents without a reward and without a punishment, like like they just want to be good parents, right? And um, and in the beginning that can be kind of a leap to for people to be like, how do I get how like how do I start thinking about like nutrition in terms of those terms, right? Or my workouts. Um but um but that's something that over like a year to three years, you you can absolutely go there, get there by like reflecting on your values and things like that. And um we could we could get more granular, like like from a from a self-determination theory perspective. Yeah. There's um yeah. Yeah, yeah. Bring this. Yeah. Bring it. So from a self-determination theory perspective, um, there's four levels that I talk about, but there's actually six. So like like one on the far end would be like not no motivation, right? And then the far other side of the motivate uh other side would be like pure joy, like you do it just just because it's fun, right? Um and uh but I don't talk about a lot those a lot because they don't have a lot to do with um with what we're doing, you know, you know, like if someone just just like loves um uh dancing or snowboarding or knitting or playing guitar or whatever, um, that's cool. That's a really robust form of motivation. We might never get there with your food habits, and that's okay. Um so the four that we talk about are on one side you've got reward and punishment, right? This is like the lowest, least robust form of motivation. Um, it disappears the the like the second that that the reward or punishment like goes away, right? Um and um it totally works. It totally works in the short term, right? And then the next level, um, and this is also on the extras extrinsic side, um, we've got like um uh guilt and contingent self-esteem. So guilt is like, oh, I feel bad if I don't do this, and contingent self-esteem is like I feel good about myself if I do do this, right? A little bit more robust than like a little bit, we're moving towards a little bit more intrinsic, um, then getting on the on the more intrinsic side or the more self self-determined side. Um we've got like personally identified goals, and um uh and then and this is like or personally meaningful goals and maybe like community values that you've identified. And um this is getting a this is getting a lot more intrinsic. Um, and then the most um intrinsic, like again, not fully intrinsic, which would be like pure joy, but like the most intrinsic that we're kind of shooting for for what we're what we're doing is um personal values, right? And you identify like here's who I want to be in the world. And then, and and so, and so the the thing is from like a from like a practical standpoint, like everything we do, we want to we want to get behavioral, right? So in the beginning, we're looking at like the food, like the food skills and guidelines and structures that we want to put in that match their values and probably also match their goals. Because everyone comes in like goals. Um But um we we start off with that, and then by the time, by the time we're done, they've kind of forgotten about most of like the guidelines and the structures, and they're just looking at things as like a choice point between like this action goes away from my values, and this action goes towards my values, right? And when we're at that level, then we don't have to worry anymore. And clients don't want to go back to the way they used to eat, and they don't want to stop working out. They're like, it feels really good, it's good, like it feels really good my body, it feels really good me being the kind of person I want to be. I feel like I'm setting a good example. Um, my relationship to my body is different because I'm taking actions related to it in line with my values instead of this like societal standard. It's um it's uh complicated messing, and it takes a while, and it's totally worth it.

Uh so uh values, man. Yeah. I think um that's a term that's thrown around a lot. Yeah, you know, by yours truly, um quite quite often too, because it's it's really a kind of a core. And I I it took me really until my 30s to understand what my values really are. And it wasn't actually pretty uh the process I went through to get there. And then once the realization of like, well, you know, these values aren't what I thought they were, or what society thinks society tells me my values should be. Totally. Um what how what do you have a process ease to help people get to what their values are and kind of identify them? Let's can we talk about that for a bit?

Absolutely. Um so uh my favorite place to start is with a values list, right? And you can Google values list, you can you can Google, like obviously I've got one. Um, but like um Brene Brown has one, and you can Google like acceptance commitment therapy values list, and there's a lot of different values lists out there. Um and the list is which list you pick doesn't necessarily matter. Um, but for a lot of people, if they haven't thought about their values before, it can be a lot easier to pick from a menu than it is to like pull values out of thin air, right? And so that's a good starting place. And so you might look at this menu and you're like, okay, there's like 60 on here, and like, okay, I kind of like courage and conscientiousness, I also kind of like kindness and love and family, and I kind of like community, and I kind of like um, you know, what what whatever, right? You might find like a dozen that you that you like. Okay, that's cool. So like circle those, but that's too many, you know, like like not too many to have as a person, but but if you're gonna use it as a choice point for for actions, then that's then that's too many, right? You probably want like one to three if if you're gonna use it to make choices. Um and so then you know you circle 12 or whatever, and then maybe you put a star by five, and then like you underline your top three. And so then you've got like three values to work from. And let's say um, let's say it's conscientiousness, reasonableness, and uh self-compassion. Those would be those would be great values to pick from like an eating skills perspective, right?

Right, right.

And and you've got these three, and um we'll do a couple different things. You know, from from there, we've we've got these different food skills and guidelines and things. We're gonna start like so. In the beginning, we talked about like, hey, here's three three options, right? Here's three different skills you could work on. I used to say habits, but um, like here's here's three different skills you could work on. Um a person might go back to their values and say, like, which one of these you know best fits. My values. Like which one is the most self-compassionate? Right? Or which one's the most, you know? And so that's a good place to start. And then from there, we can start doing journaling exercises. And journaling exercises might be just a matter of like them setting a timer for five minutes and just free riding. Like, what would it look like to live conscientiousness around my food skills? And then maybe next week it's like, what would it look like to live self-compassion around my food skills? And um, and then um, and then we might do other things on top of that. Like, I really like um another like alternate ways of getting at your values are like uh, you know, what if you were eight years old, what would you tell yourself about this? You know, like that's a good way. I like that. Um sometimes people do it the other way, where they're like, what if you're eight years old? What would you tell yourself about this? And so those are like, and then you can go the other way. And and again, like I've got a lot of clients that are parents. I'm like, what would you tell your son or daughter about this? How would you want them? What would you want their values around food to be? And of course, they're always like, not what I was told, you know, you know, not what I see in in magazines and you know, like um social media, and and um, so those are those are a couple different ways, but usually we start with a menu and then we'll do some journaling exercises, and then every week on our coaching call, we'll come back to like, hey, are these things that we're doing like in line with our values? And we'll make distinctions between like societal standards and their values. And it's okay to want to meet societal standards. That's that's okay. But if that's the only thing we're pulling from, it's gonna be bad for our well-being, it's not a robust form of motivation, it's bad for our body image. Um, and um people are successful, more successful pulling from values or from pulling from both. Pulling from both is is okay. And in fact, I think in the world we live in, it might be unrealistic to ask people to only pull from values. Why is that? We're just so inundated with um messages about uh about like how our body should look and status, and you know, like if we can be a if we can at least be aware of where that's coming from, I think that's enough. If we can just be like, okay, like that's not from me, maybe that's like not the example I want to set. Um but you know what I I do have some goals around that, that's okay. Um, but for the most part, I'm trying to, I'm trying to be this kind of person. And and like like look, if we have our and and also there there's some research on that. That um that pulling from extrinsic goals isn't destructive if we're also pulling from our values. But if we only have extrinsic goals, then it's actually super bad for our well-being. Like that's that's like really common. I mean, I mean, really consistent in the research and self-determination theory.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I look at um, you know, I work with a lot of entrepreneurs. Yeah. And uh getting it's very similar process. Like, hey, let's get to know your values. Like, why are you really doing this? And everyone, because whenever you know, I ask someone, hey, what does success look like to you in your business and your life? And then no one actually ties it into their life, which is interesting. They're like, Well, I want to be, you know, a million-dollar business in two years. Okay, well, cool. Well, what does that actually mean for your life? Like the shit that actually matters, right? Like, what does that mean? Like, what does no, what does success really look like? Like, envision yourself, you know, is because you can get that number. I mean, maybe you can. Some some people can, right? Yeah. But it's it sounds cliche, but it's cliche because it's true. But money doesn't get you what you want, really. Yeah. Sometimes it gets you a piece of it. And I think that's you know, a key thing. And I God, I mean, the more I hear you talk, it just it it's just so many like nutrition is so much more than a meal plan. Right.

Right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Everyone's like, hey, just follow this meal plan. No, you're gonna have to get you, you're gonna have to roll up your sleeves. You're gonna have to get psychological with people. Yeah. You know? Totally. How do you know? How do you know? I mean, you're far more educated than the average nutrition coach. How do you know when your scope of practice is being pushed up against?

Oh, that's a my my favorite question. That's the question that I wish everyone was asking. Um, because man, do we exceed our scope of practice in the fitness industry so much, right? Like we exceed, I see people exceed it in like physical into like physical therapy, into nutrition, into um into psychology, right? So um so nutrition-wise, uh I try and not coach nutrition. I I know that sounds really silly, but uh um uh we're pretty safe um coaching like balanced meals, you know? And like if someone wants really, um if someone really wants to dive in on like the nutrition side, I actually send them to um uh Harvard Chan School of Public Health has a great website, has a great um page called the Nutrition Source. And my like plate guideline that I give people like matches that pretty well. It's basically just like half fruits and vegetables and a quarter protein and a quart of carbohydrates and a little bit of fat and um or like tablespoon of fat or whatever you you know, healthy fat. Um and that's it. And that's it. Like, like as fitness professionals, we can absolutely coach like balanced meals are cool. We can recommend um we can recommend stuff from other bigger science-based sources, like like Harvard Chan. Um and uh and yeah, that's about as far as I go. And then I tell people it's not that big a deal. That like even like even what we're doing to looking at the plate guideline, like I'm not really coaching them on like their health, right? I don't get into health ever. You know, if they come back, I mean it's it's super common for like clients to start eating better and to come back and be like, hey, like, you know, I went to the doctor and like my blood work changed and things that sweet, that's not my department. I'm super stoked, and that's like totally not my department. Um, and like when clients ask like medically questions, um, even like a lot of health questions are like kind of like that's a question for, you know, we're gonna work on eating a balanced meal. You know what? Vegetables are probably healthy, fruit's probably pretty healthy, olive oil is healthy, fish oil is, you know, like like we can say, like, hey, let's let's eat some healthy stuff and like kind of a healthy balance. Um and I and I stop it there, right? I try and keep it really behavioral. Behavior is absolutely within our scope of practice. I can I can coach eating slower, I can coach um, you know what, like snacking doesn't increase fullness, right? I you know, I mean like distinguishing hunger from stress, like like we we can we can do that, right? We can totally do that. So that's the nutrition side of scope of practice. Psychology, this is one where like what we want to do is like not not not treat mental illness, you know, like I'm not trying to um do any of that at all, like at all, at all. I think it's well within our scope of practice to say, hey, you know what? Um let's take a look at our values. Like this is intrinsic motivation, this is extrinsic motivation. I think it's actually imperative for us to talk about the um how destructive it is to only try and meet a societal standard of beauty, right? Um, and that like we should like contrast that versus values, right? Um, we should talk about like the the impact of really black and white diet rules, right? I mean, could like there is no research showing that black and white diet rules don't like like are okay for our well-being. Like they're they're almost universally bad, right? Explain that black and white nutrition rules. Like it means um and and I actually I I went too far on that. There there is some research on the gradiation on it. So so um so black and white food rules is like this food's bad, this food's good, this food's clean, this food's dirty. You eat this, you're gonna die. Um you're a bad person if you eat this. And like, like no one actually says you're a bad person if if you eat this, but it shows up like that. Like that's like implied. Yeah.

There was a I mean, it's dogmatic. Yeah. Essentially. I mean, like, you know, in my early days of CrossFit, and you know, when paleo came in and seemed to just partner perfectly, it was like I I understood in my gut that like, okay, this isn't this is we're getting people in the right direction, but this can be dangerous, yeah. At the same time. And how many people were just like, well, that's not paleo? That's not paleo, right? Well, it's I fuck. Like that was just like, okay, yeah, but I said it, so I gotta stand by it, but it also explained to people like, hey, this is just we're just moving in the right direction, right? Yeah. I mean, God, there's no I think the nutrition field is is there anything more dogmatic than than nutrition? Yeah. Everybody's got an opinion. I mean, you go as far, you go as far, I don't know what direction it is, we'll just say it's far left as veganism, right? Yeah. And then you start to get some pretty emotional viewpoints. Like that's the craziest thing to me about nutrition, is like how tied it in. I maybe it's not surprising. It's tied into like emotional belief and almost religion. Oh, totally. Well, it is religion for a lot of. I mean, yeah, some can't eat beef, right? Yeah. Due to their religion. Like that's it's crazy, it's it's a lot. It's a lot going on psychologically.

Yeah. There's there's a I read a cool paper on um on um how on on like the religious religion, not not like the religiosity, but like how like how we approach uh food in this really religious way. And they were actually talking about um cleanses. It was about how like cleanses almost um you could theoretically trace it back to this idea of like this like like religious purification, right? Which like if that's religion, cool. But like people treat it like I've been a bad eater, and I'm going to like purify myself through this like like punishing cleanse. And it's like that's not a healthy relationship to food, right? That's just not. And it's it is one of those things where like you get these like really extreme ends of the spectrum, and people do have like uh a really weird commitment to it that goes way beyond whether or not it's effective and whether it's um it's yeah, it it becomes something else, you know? And and like like both like keto is the same way, right?

Yeah.

And um and these things were like there's a lot of different things that could be effective, you know, and that's oh man, everyone seems to overblow the the the um the research that supports that they're thinking might be one percent more effective than now they're in the world.

Well you can you can find you can find research to back up any opinion now. There's just so much. Yeah, you know, I mean, really, and you can either you know find it straight up or manipulate in a way that serves you. Yeah. And and that's um, you know, my my wife did keto last year for 45 days. Um, you know, lost 10 pounds, she was super happy, and on her frame that was a lot. Yeah. And but it was like a punishment. Right. You know, it was like, yeah, she said, but she couldn't wait until it was over. Right. And that's and that's like ultimately like, well, I just got one more week, I can do it.

That comes back to what you were saying about working with business people. Yes. Like they want to get to this amount of money, but like they're not looking at the life they want. Right?

Yes, exactly.

It's like if you're doing this diet and you like can't wait for it to be over because it's nothing like the life that you want to have.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's not a good plan. Yeah. Well, we we run through an exercise too. Um with entrepreneurs like, you know, what if if you're going to how long do you think you'll live, right? Yeah. Okay, great. Now with modern science and you know, how much, how many more, if you're gonna tap add on to that, how many more quality years you can get? Okay, you know, 100, 115, 125. Yeah, but what if those days are guaranteed are not guaranteed? So why don't you start living your life while not waiting for retirement? Yeah. Right? Because everyone thinks, well, I'll just get to 65. Yeah. And then I'll have this 50 years of this shit doesn't work like that anymore. Right. And A, you're not guaranteed anything. I mean, not just like, yeah, I don't know, like I we've, you know, I've 2015, I almost lost my brother suddenly, like due to a brain hemorrhage. Like I was like, whoa, like this could happen any moment. You know, and then what? And then like it is your life, so why not take pieces of that, what you enjoy, and incorporate them into all the time, but then make it manageable over the long term. And it's a fine balance. It's a it's uh, you know, it's a literally a tightrope walk at first, but then you learn, you learn it. Um yeah, it's it's there's a lot of there's a lot of analogies there, or whatever the right term is, analogies, metaphors. Um so can I can can I jump off that really quick?

Yeah, please. Because I feel like there's this thing. So, so the the funny thing is like like looking into research on um on body image, there's a lot of parallels to looking to research on like status and wealth, right? Where um we we kind of believe that like the existential crises that we have in our lives will be sorted out if I just have abs or if I just have X number of dollars in revenue, right? Um and being human doesn't work like that, you know? And like like all these different, you know, like oh like I wouldn't be sad or I wouldn't be frustrated, or I wouldn't be lonely, or wouldn't be, you know, like all these all these things that that show up in like pretty normal cycles in in the like being a human, um we really do get a lot of messages that like if I just sorted that out, everything would be fine. And and I I think I'm extrapolating that that that's why people are like, I'll start living the life I want to live when I clear that goal. And um, and and and that's the thing that I talk to about clients with all the time is that before I started doing values work with clients, I had a lot of clients that um that hit really amazing goals and weren't super happy. You know, they were they were really stoked for like a week, a month, you know, however long it was for them. And then all of a sudden, like their humanity kicked in and they're like, hey, this actually didn't solve everything that I was told it would solve. And maybe I need a new goal, right? And I'm fine with like setting new goals, like that's cool. But with weight loss, there's absolutely a point where like like this is enough and we need to stop. And if we don't ever like get out of purely extrinsic goals and like thinking that they're gonna solve these other bigger issues, then like there is never enough.

Yeah, you know. So that it that's powerful. I mean, I look at you know, I can reflect, I've only lived my own life, right? So I can only look at the perspective of my own messed up head, right? Yeah. Is like, you know, there is um, I reach milestones of business success that I had been shooting for.

Yeah.

And uh time and time again, I'm like, but I look back at the growing phase, yeah, and that was my most favorite all the time. It was full of like celebration and you know, stress, but then overcoming and and all those things. Like, I never look at like the time when I was like, Oh, this shit's cruising. This is great.

Right.

You know, off on Wednesdays and Fridays. Awesome. That was actually kind of boring, and I don't look back on it that favorably, you know. But and and you know, when I look at like when I really started to get to know my values, it usually sometimes comes through moments of stress where you have to really focus. Absolutely. Because if you have some of the hardest decisions that you you need to make in life, business, whatever it may be, if you understand your values and you can fall back on those to help you make those decisions, because things can get really gray really fast when you have really, really heartbreaking decisions to make at times. And you know, that that's huge. And I I use that, you know, during a certain period of my life. I had to fall really know my get to know my values in an honest way and then fall back on them. Then I start looking at them like, well, you know, what's stopping me from living the life I want right now? Yeah. Just a few series of decisions, really. Yeah. Right. Like, we now live in a mountain town. Was I making more money? No, I I stole my business. I wasn't making shit, right? But we made the move and we we made it work because financially you can always make it work. You just sell right, like, hey, we're gonna spend this much on rent, right? We're gonna do this much, we're only going out this many times, and then and then you set that discipline. But that discipline, and you probably know this, is actually what creates the freedom.

Yeah.

Which is irony in some weird way.

There's a lot of paradoxes in the in this in this game. This little thing called life. Yeah, you're totally right. You're totally right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like give me some insight because the the nutrition industry, right, really isn't that old. It's probably maybe the same age as fitness-ish, right? I mean, who would you say is the pioneer of new of mainstream nutrition coaching if you were gonna look back? So um Aquilane.

Oh, maybe. Oh, dude. You know what's funny? He lived in um, he lived the next in the next town up from me when I was growing up. And I like saw him at a gas station a couple times, and like people would mob him and like ask him fitness questions, and I had no idea who he was. Yeah. Yeah. Did you grow up in the Bay Area? Uh no, um, uh Morrill Bay. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's actually.

So when he retired, he'd he'd moved further south. Okay, okay. And um uh and so so and so yeah, yeah, probably, probably. Um but uh but this like this is one of those things where like I don't look at nutrition that much anymore. Like, like I'm spending all my time reading about psychology. Um I'm I'm spending all my time looking at like um uh you know what what the I'm I'm looking at like contextual behavioral science and and eat and eating behavior, right? So um, so yeah, so um you're you're right though that like if it started with Jack Belane, that that really wasn't that long ago, you know, and and you look at nutrition science before that and it was kind of silly. You look at psychology before that, and it was kind of silly. I mean, like like a lot of these things have made huge strides in the last like 20 to 40 years. And um yeah, like like like psychology is especially there's there's really cool new things coming. I mean, like we were so wrong in the 60s. Um so so yeah, I mean, I mean like in some ways we are looking at like you can look at like psychology, nutrition, fitness. These are like relatively new industries compared to like I mean they're they're they're really new sciences compared to like like physics and biology, right? Yeah. Um yeah, I mean like it's it's all a little immature, maybe? Like like like we're starting to get better stuff.

And I think um, and the reason I asked that question is because I like to reflect on that before looking into the future, because I think what people seem to realize in our industry is that it is really young, you know, um it's got a huge, like a ton of opportunity here. You know, yeah, there's a lot of you know, personal trainers who are like, screw you, Eric, there's no opportunity, I'm burning out, right? But no, there is. If you just stick with it and kind of like there is there's a ton of opportunity here, where do you see, like, if we're having the same conversation in like 10 years, Shosh, and you're like, whoa, like, you know, this industry is exact going exactly the direction I thought it would go, you know, what what is that gonna look like? Like, is it gonna be like a merger of of health into psychology? Like, where do you see, like, where should people start, you know, like directing their ships?

Um

Um like like where I want it to go.

Yeah. Yeah. So what I think would be really cool is for fitness to get really clear about scope of practice. And like this is the psychology that's within our scope. This is the nutrition that's within our scope. And this is like the corrective exercise that's within our scope. And like knowing that line for two reasons. Number one, to make sure that we don't exceed it. And number two, to make sure that what is within our scope always gets included. Right? That there aren't trainers that haven't read about motivational interviewing. Right. That like everyone just knows, like, oh, if you're gonna be a trainer, you have to read about motivational interviewing. Right? That's within our scope. It's within our scope to like ask open-ended questions and listen and do reflective listening, right? And give people choices, right? That's all that's all motivational interviewing, that's within our scope. It should be mandatory, right? Nutrition, I hope there's more resources, like um, you know, like like like like I said, like like I recommend um Harvard University's TH Chan School of Public Health, their nutrition guidelines. I hope that there's like some really good science-based nutrition guidelines that we can like recommend and outsource and feel really comfortable about that. Um and corrective exercise, I think, has actually gotten a lot better already, where people are starting to realize like, hey, this is what trainers like should always do, and this is what is like ridiculous and too much. And this is like what we should like refer out to a physical therapist. And and that also goes for like the referring out piece also goes like, oh, this person has legitimate like like health and medical nutrition questions. I need to refer them to a registered dietitian, right? And this person has um, and you know what? Like, here's a good screen for disordered eating. This person's further over the line than than what I should be working with. If they're gonna work with me, they need to work with uh a uh uh counselor, you know, simultaneously, right? And um that's that's where I would like to see it go. And um I think we would be more prof like more professional, we'd be significantly more effective. Um it would be a much better experience for the clients. Um and that that's that's the other thing. So so uh I want trainers to get more um more interested in the experiences their clients are having, not just like what the optimal thing for results is, you know, because a lot of a lot of where we really like grind on clients and like drive them out of the industry is that we're coaching to um optimal. Like, like we're coaching these people like, here's how you would eat if you were an athlete, or here's how you'd eat if you'd never had an issue with snacking before, or here's how you know, like how how can we put people in a position where they've they've got a sense of autonomy, they've got choices, they're exploring their values, like like there's a lot less of us telling people what to do and us like providing structures and spaces for them to explore their values and like structures for them to like figure out what to do within that. And um so many different directions. Um but um but that's that's kind of that's kind of where where it's going. And and like the experience for clients would be better. We could reach a lot more clients. Like, I think I think the reason that we reach so many clients, so few clients, is because we're actually like driving most people away. Um I I think if we were a little bit more patient and a little more compassionate, we'd a little more listening and we provided a little more structure, like we still provided structure and we were still behavioral inside of that, um, we could help a lot, lot, lot more people. We'd have a better, we'd be better known out in the world. You know, it I I I think I think everything could change.

Yeah. Yeah, I I agree. I'm just not sure how to get there. You know, I think there's so many layers of of that because um, you know, like how first of all, how do we get fitness, you know, the the fitness professional, the ones who are in the trenches, right, doing the work with the clients. How do we get them network with the right people, you know, the medical profession, licensed nutritionists? How do we get everybody on the same page and agreed upon, you know, that like, hey, this is kind of where we're at? I mean, what if someday, Josh, there was some kind of unifying body, you know, that did that where they connected everybody, right? Everybody was rolling, running, everyone knew their role and everybody was running strong in their lane. Yeah. And uh what a what a beautiful world that would be.

Well, like I think if you look at more mature industries, they all have that. You know, I look at um so one one thing, so I used to work, I worked in a physical therapy office for three years, and um, and I actually got kind of like interested in the in the history of the physical therapy industry because I'm like, physical therapy wasn't that different from personal training, you know, decades ago. You know, there was a point where it was it was like um, well, I mean, there was a point where like nurses did it, and then there was a point where it was a certification, and there was a point where it was like a two-year degree, and there was a point there was a four-year degree, and then it became a master's, and then and then you know, like and somewhere in there we got um we got like like door like licensing, and we and we got like this governing body. And um, and so those things were like then and then you go in that arena and like people are I mean it still has its still has its issues, but like people are clear about what their role is and when to refer out. Ever like when I worked in a physical therapy office, the physical therapists were very comfortable referring out. You know, it was it was part of what you did. Of course they networked with doctors, they were expected to network doctors, doctors were expected to network with them. Ever like it was it was it was all built in. And um, and I think that I think that we can get there. And I think that like um I'm lucky having worked in the physical therapy office that I'm I'm friends with physical therapists and I'm I'm friends with registered dietitians, and and um and referring back and forth is the best thing ever. And I think trainers don't know that. I think a lot of trainers are afraid to refer out because they're afraid they'll lose their clients or they're afraid that they'll spread their client spending dollars too thin. Um and I get that, but like the clients that I have have insurance, you know, like like physical, like like personal training is kind of like a luxury good. And like if they can afford me, they can probably afford to go see a physical therapist when they need to. They can probably afford to hire a registered dietitian when they need to, they can probably see a therapist. In fact, many of my clients have already done all of those things in the past. You know, like those are things we can totally do. And then, and then like in the physical therapy world, there's all these structures. Like, you can um it's normal to do in services with doctors. You bring in lunch and talk to them about what you do, and you do that like once a quarter and you get to know people. You essentially just buy lunch for the office, that costs money, but like there's already like like trainers could do that. We could do that with with doctors, we could do that with physical therapists, because physical therapists also host in services for people selling like orthopedic goods and things like that. And so there are these structures that like trainers don't know about. And I think we totally could. Um and I and I do think that licensing would help, and I do think all of that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think ultimately it's like, hey, if you're if you're a trainer, gym owner, nutrition coach, whatever it may be, maybe spend a little bit less money on your funnel and more time and energy on building networks that last. And that's that's a bold that's a bold statement, dude. I'm it's not just about Facebook ads. Yeah, it's no, there's a lot to it. And I, you know, I I guess just because the time that I had started my my gym and business and my coaching career was that we didn't actually have that stuff accessible. I didn't have Facebook ads, I didn't have Instagram ads, and that was a huge advantage because when it came across, I was like, whoa, I can use this too. It was like bumps.

Yeah. Do you have any kind of like like networking tips, perspectives, strategies? A ton.

A ton.

Yeah, a ton. I mean, it's what I do, man. I'm uh ultimately when I look at like, you know, what do I do um on a day-to-day basis? I'm a connector. And that's you know, that's um, it's hard. It's funny, it's a hard thing to monetize, right? Um but it's ultimately what I do. So networking is just something I do naturally, but when I teach people steps to do it, it's pretty simple. It's like you just hey, you just start by leading with value. That's it. And then when you when you come back again, bring more value. Like you're talking about bringing lunch, right? Yeah. I do with podcasts. I'm like, hey, why don't you come on my podcast? I'll introduce you, I'll give you a nice piece of content. Uh, I'll introduce you to a new audience, and then we can talk about your business, right? Yeah, whatever it may be. Yeah, that's value. That's it. Stop going in and saying, hey, I'm hoping you will refer people to me. Yeah. Stop it. Yeah. Stop it. Like go out, find out what their problems are, see if you can help them, and then they'll know. It's just the basic of like it's the law of reciprocation, right? It's just it's innately in us. And that it doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Just go help somebody. God, get out of your office, go help somebody, go find somebody, and that's it.

That's it. That's awesome. Is that that no, that's that's great. And that reminds me of something of like, so so like like I mentioned doing in-services and bringing lunch. Something you said was go find out what their problems are. If if there's any trainers listening to this that want to be effective in an in-service, and and for people, if you're a trainer, you might not know. An in-service is just what that's what it's called when you bring lunch to a doctor's office or a philosopher's office or something like that. Okay. Um, the worst thing you can do is go and like like pitch your business and ask for referrals, just like what you just said. The best thing you can do is go there and ask questions about like what problems they have that they need to get solved.

That's it. That's it. And it just takes a little patience and belief that you know eventually it'll things will swing back your way. Right. Um, but if you start to get the feeling that, hey, maybe it's not, and also you you gotta look like um look at someone from a lens of like, what do you, what do you believe their values are? Right. Because if values align, then you really got something. Um so that's that's a whole nother level. But ultimately, if people are listening and they're like, well, what do I do? Well, you just go help somebody, find out what the problems are, and see if you can help some more, and then that's it. So with that, Josh, what what uh what's where do people find your new book, dude? Where do people find you? All the new cool things, GMB. Yeah, give us that.

Yeah. So um, so uh my website is loosdumberedfat.com. Um that's my blog. Uh post a lot of stuff about this kind of stuff. Um super interesting. Eating skills and and a little bit of celebrity workout still once in a while. And um the um I'm gonna have a lot more stuff coming out at at gmb.io at gmb fitness um their website, um, because I've got that big eating skills program coming out. Um that'll come out in January. The book comes out in February. Um, so I might put some stuff on on Target publications website also. Um, but um, but yeah, so GMB Fitness or Lose Tripper Fat.com. Um maybe you could catch my Facebook group. If you if like if you have questions, I've got a Facebook group, and that's a great place to ask you questions. I'm always on there. And I love to answer questions because this is my favorite topic. Yeah, what's the name of the Facebook group? Um it's uh it's Josh Ellis's um Fat Lost. No, it's it's Fat Lost Happens on Monday. Okay, okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely so it's so it's it's named after my first book. Yeah. What is it? I was like, no, that's my Facebook page, but I don't really use my Facebook page. Are pages worth anything anymore? I have no idea, man. I don't think so. My group is great.

My page seems like a waste of yeah, social media is is such a small part of my overall strategy. Um people keep telling me I need to focus more time on it. Um, but I hate it for the most part. So you have it. Like I just don't, I just don't like it that much.

Yeah. Um well that's like I tried to force myself to like Twitter. I just hate it. I just do. I don't know, I don't know why. I just can't stand it.

Well, some people make it look so good, like Tony Gensilcor. Like you can't post one comment on Twitter or whatever you call it, a tweet. Yeah, he's got like a whole conversation started with like 50 different people. Like, whoa, that's cool. That's invaluable, right? I don't know if he like if if it gets him closer to his goals, but it seems to be create producing engagement. I think that's the other thing is like, okay, you can have all the social engagement. Is it actually getting you closer to translate? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know either way. Um, dude, Josh, always a pleasure, but let's let's uh let's let's make uh a commitment so it's not another year and a half before we get you back on. I think it'd be a lot more I'm in. Yeah, cool, cool. It's just so much fun. Yeah, yeah, it really is. Well, uh, thanks again, brother. I I appreciate your time. And ladies and gentlemen, Josh Hillis. Thanks. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I asked you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge, that's a big deal for us. And we're we put a lot of work into these episodes, uh, trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness MarketingAliance.com