Daniel Tal Mor - Lumen & The Next Evolution of Nutrition

Hey everybody, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness industry podcast for over two years and running. It is 2021, and I am your host, Eric Malzone. I have the absolute pleasure of talking to entrepreneurs, innovators, and cutting-edge technology experts within the fast-paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. Stop by futurofitness.co to subscribe and learn more. This episode of the Future of Fitness is presented to you by the Fit Tech Club, a business network run by the creators of the Fit Tech Summit, Europe's leading conference devoted to fitness and health technology. Look, friends, the fitness industry is changing faster than ever. The intersection of technology with fitness and health is growing bigger and more dynamic by the minute. Gyms are exploding figuratively, and their constituent parts are ending up at home, outdoors, on your wrist, or in entirely new places with brilliantly new concepts. Investors are pumping astronomical amounts of money into the market like we've never seen before. The FitTech Club believes that collaboration is the advantage to these times of change. That's why the club aims to bring thought leaders together to inspire them by making the right contacts at the right time and giving insights to the industry's most relevant and current trends. Here's what Melanie Lauer, CEO of Kettler and TriSports, says about the Fit Tech Club.

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Hey Eric, thank you for having me.

Uh I'm thrilled. I just haven't talked to you for a few minutes prior to recording. First of all, you just got this really calm vibe, which I always appreciate, especially at this hour in the morning for me when I'm recording. Uh it's really uh it's really good. And you know what you've done with Lumen and the product and your vision for all of it, I can tell it's gonna be a very, very valuable interview. So, you know, let's just get right into it, man. If you want to give us a little bit about your background as an entrepreneur, I know you've done a lot um in the entrepreneurial world and the investing world, and then I think you started Lumen in what, 2014? Um, how that idea and concept started and then where it is today in uh you know January of 2022. 2022. That's crazy. Wow.

Crazy. Yeah. Um yeah, so there's a lot to cover. So I'll just start and you point me in the in the direction and stop me and feel free, you know, at any given moment. So my background is um is uh is entrepreneurship, but probably before that is you know, is working with teams. It's uh in Israel, everyone has a military service where you have they're at the age of 18, you're thrown to become something, and uh and that something is probably a role within the within the military, and it's uh and for me it was uh commanding uh uh name I was Navy officer basically. So I was a Navy officer course, and I was my my path was to building teams that engage to win something. And uh and through that um I began my entrepreneurship journey, which uh was also about building teams, about finding uh a vision, about finding uh a product that is worth building, and uh and finding the team. And I think that's for me was the main driver. I was always passionate to find people to work with that I'm happy to meet every day. And uh and that uh led me to uh meet two my first two co-founders, my colleagues Bo and Avi, who uh with them have been building companies for the past 16 or now 17 years, actually. Uh some of them failed, uh some of them succeeded, and now we're on the third, we're on a third company, Lumen, for the past eight years, and uh we're we're on a good uh we're on a good track so far.

Yeah. I'm curious when when you go back to not to catch you off there, but I I I think team building is a really fascinating thing. I mean, I I get to work with a decent amount of companies, I've built my own teams, and it's extremely challenging, you know, to find a team that that's all on the same page that works well together. When you start the journey for building a team, do you have any like framework or thoughts on on how you approach doing that?

So I I I learned that it's um it's almost uh it's not a framework-less experience, but it's uh as an entrepreneur, the team you need and the the and your role in it is really very dynamic. And as you succeed and you grow the team, your your role is changing. And my role is now changing from being the entrepreneur that solves the goes deep into a very critical problem, solve it so the business can survive. It could be raising funds, it could be building this invention which is Lumen, uh, it could be uh anything else. Um and now my role is uh is changing as a CEO, is it's no longer to be in the problem, it's to be um mentoring the people who are really solving things and uh being helpful for them and making sure that they are their growth is happening and that they become phenomenal at their job. And it's gradually uh the the team building becomes my whole world in a way. Vision and team building. And so only now I can say I'm learning this uh the a new episode about building a company that now is hundred people and very soon uh going to grow uh to a bit more. And it's fascinating for me. I have no philosophy. Uh I'm forging my philosophy uh these days around that, really about how to manage 100 people.

Yeah, that'll be uh maybe that'll be an interesting book down the road, anyway. Uh so I kind of stopped you there. So you were talking about how you you found your founding partners for Lumen um and you started building that business, right?

So I guess I I probably missed uh two very important problems, two very important prounders. I will uh catch on that. So my my two business partners, Roar and Avi, we've been building tech companies for for a while now. And it was in software, never nothing like Lumen, never in fitness, never hardware, never behavioral change, never nutrition. What pulled me into this area is actually um, as I said, I love working with people that I love. So um my wife, Michal, and her twin sister Mirave, they are the co-founders who actually uh I started working for. So I've been so I'm now with um two co-founders from my, I'd say my past career, and other two co-founders uh from my life, my family basically. My my uh spouse and her twin sister. Uh their background is nutrition, and their background is uh uh in research and then science, research around the cardiac arrhythmia. And uh their passion in life was nutrition. And they found the problem. They found kind of the opportunity of measuring metabolism in real time and driving nutritional decisions based on your metabolic health, your metabolic flexibility, and uh and how your body responds to things you're doing. So uh I really live by that philosophy of uh working with people that you love. Uh it's uh it's it's challenging at times, and it's uh it's probably the most important team I ever built. But uh we already have a track record of uh eight years now, so it's probably uh so it's going well for us.

Yeah. How do you how do you separate the when you go home, right? When when you're seeing your wife and you guys are having dinner or spending family time versus the work. That's gotta be a tough boundary. I mean, my work, my wife and I worked together for a short period of time. Um when I was uh she helped me manage books for my gyms. And it was uh it worked out, but it definitely had stressful points, right? So how do you yours is like a whole new level, what you're doing now? What how how do you manage that?

It's like uh it's like having another um extremely complex kid um together. So so uh you don't really so at the at the beginning we said let's uh let's separate, let's not let's not mix that. And you realize that uh you know you can't decide when you're going to talk about your kids or the people that surround you in the office and the opportunity around them and what they're missing, and and eventually you um you just try to feel each other. And when it's good, it's amazing. Like you can have a moment uh after your uh day of work and reflect with someone that cares very deeply about what you're doing and knows the people and can listen and can help you, and actually can I can can apply the next day, help you apply. So there are there are wonderful things about it, and obviously there are things that are um are hard because uh uh a couple's journey is cyclical and a startup's journey is cyclical, right? And uh there are like two rollercoaster roller coasters uh one within the other. So sometimes um we we uh we we uh we need to kind of get get a grip on our lives. Uh but you know we realize that, and at some point we uh we have team, we have people here at Lumen helping us as well with that because it's uh it's it will be such a true big sacrifice on our life because our life would collapse if we'll be 100% here and and 100% at home. It's not really possible.

Yeah, yeah.

So we we uh we invest in that in making it uh work.

Yeah, I mean it's always any relationship is work, right? Especially one that you know uh is at home and in the office uh theoretically. Uh okay, so when you when you started this company, Lumen, what was the the problem? What were you guys out to to solve? As an entrepreneur, were you always looking to solve problems, right? What was it specifically?

Right.

So it was uh an evening and Michal and Mirave, they they're identical twins with very uh similar passions in life. So they uh um came back after uh about a year in their nutritional studies uh after their PhD in in re in the space of research, and they were extremely frustrated. They felt like they will never be really nutritionists because nutritionists don't have tools. There is no data within the the space of nutrition, almost no data. Microbiome, it was 2014. So microbiome wasn't even a thing then, and blood sugar levels uh was something that only diabetic people uh were measuring. Now there is there is more to look at. But at those times there was nothing. Like really, nutritionist, in a way, it's psychology of uh food. And what sparked our interest was the feedback loop, was the concept of testing things about yourself and seeing what makes an impact and what doesn't. And what we believed is that with the existence of data and the space of nutrition, and and probably in a more holistic way also in wellness, uh things will change dramatically. Like diets could end. Like diets as we know them, as fad diets, as trends. Because why would I take something for that is working for you if I can take something that is tailored really for me, coming from my habits, from my background, the way I train, um the my availability for food? Am I cooking for family? Am I so so um so we felt that there are going to be an up a huge opportunity with the the existence of data, and the way we manage our nutrition is going to change uh dramatically. And that's the opportunity we saw. Um and I think that's the opportunity we see till today. It's still prevalent, it's just becoming a bit more um revealing now.

Explain to us, uh I you know I haven't had a chance to use lumen, but I'm I'm excited too, because I will I'll definitely get um you know in a unit or two. But what does it do? Like what does the technology actually do? Please explain it to me in our audience.

So metabolism is uh right, is a broad process. It's a it's uh several processes in our bodies, hormones, but we look at um at something specific that happens within the cell, right? Well, our body is in order to produce energy, we take oxygen and we take fuel and we burn and we create a burn. And that burn produces ATP. That's the energetic coin of the body. And uh what Lumen is looking into is by seeing the CO2 content in your breath, what we try to understand is whether your body is currently using fats, free fatty acids, or carbs, glucose, for to make that energy. And um the variance between those two fuels are actually indicative of health. So if you can use fats very efficiently as they are like as food is not available, you can tap into your fat stores. And when food is available, your body can shift and sugar is available, and you will use that sugar as the go-to fuel, then your your insulin sensitivity is good, and your body is efficient, like an athlete. Uh, people who are inefficient in a way are prediabetic and people who are diabetic. But as opposed to looking at it from the healthcare system perspective, we look at an axis and we all live on that axis between someone who is extremely efficient metabolically and someone who is inefficient. And what Lumen try to do is to help people understand where they sit and push them to the efficient route. Um, and our clients use this mainly um because they want to lose weight. So a lot of our client customers are coming to Lumen because they want to understand their own body, and they they come with an aspiration to lose a few pounds and kind of to feel better, more energized, um uh and and you know, feel better about themselves, and some some of them are obese and some of them are overweight, and that's an entry gate for Lubin. The opportunity is that when you realize that what you should be investing in is actually your metabolic health, and that's the um the way for you to preserve the weight you lost and to understand how sleep is impacting uh your metabolism and how alcohol consumption at night is impacting, and how stress or or uh working out or just being active. Once you start mapping and seeing how everything is impacting you, it's really hard to um to be in balance. And balance is the last thing diet uh tend to sell you on, right? It's all about uh having uh an evil carbs are evil, fats is evil, um you should go to the extreme. No one can sell you balance because balance is being sold by sharing your data and what's really personalized for you, and that's what Lumen tried to uh to do to promote.

It is interesting. I mean, I've been in this industry for a little while, and I think if you are a fitness and health professional, you've been frustrated at least a dozen times with nutrition because everybody comes to you, they want to lose X amount of pounds and X amount of days, right? And really when it comes down to is like, well, it takes its habit change, right? We gotta change like would you rather lose a pound for life or 20 pounds in 30 days and then have it come all back again? But again, that's not sexy, you can't sell that, right? Because you know what people will do is they'll walk down the street to the next door where the guy or girl is promising 20 pounds in 30 days, right? So it's a frustrating thing, and then just the misinformation. I mean, god dude, it's like eggs are the good or the bad, everything's a good thing.

Depending on the depending on the month, not on the year, even right? Depending on the month. So so it's uh and a lot of the time the context really changes everything. So people are trying to look for the answers in the food, so they would think that uh that ice cream could be good for them, but rice is horrible. And yes, there are food allergies. I'm not dismissing those, but a lot of time after a workout, your insulin sensitivity is higher, and yes, you can get away with more carbs in your meal, and it's uh and it's good. And so uh, and and maybe I gave like a higher level of what lumen is, but really on the ground, what it does is this is a morning ritual, it's a small breathalyzer. You take it, it's connected to an app, and it learns you in the first uh week or so. And what uh eventually you do is you take a measurement every morning and it will collect all the data about you that we can from Healthkit, from Google Fit, uh, your wearables, and you'll answer a few questions, and then it will show you uh what are you burning now? And morning time at fasting, which is the the moment that ritual is being uh is being taken, uh morning time at fasting is a is a point in time where you would expect the body to be in fat burn, right? Because you've been fasting for the night, and now it's uh it's a good time to see that your body is really using those fat stores. Um and when you're not burning fat at night, it could be in the morning, it's probably because you've been overeating carbs in the past uh two or three days, or it's probably because you've been overeating calories. Uh it could be because you're sleep deprived and your your body is stressed and cortisol levels are high. It could be because you've consumed alcohol uh or ate very late at night and your body is still processing food. So with all those caveats, we can start learning about how long you should fast and uh and if you should fast, is fasting really a A good skill for you to embrace. When to eat carbs, spread them or or or uh focus them. Uh how does breakfast impact you? So, in a way, it's a tool for self-research, but uh that research is done in our systems. So all the data is poured in and all the insights are gradually being released to you, um, as well as you go in that journey.

You know, I I've been part of a uh I'm sure you've heard this a few times, part of an argument or a discussion. I should say every once in a while, but like, well, nutrition is just as easy as calories in, calories out. That's it, right? It's just that simple. Well, and then there's other people like, no, no, there's you know what you're talking about. There, there's so much more to it, right? Uh when people say that, what's your first thought, or how do you answer that that challenge?

It's uh it's it's it's both in a way for me. It's uh the the calorie in, calorie out is a good paradigm to think about, you know, that what you take in, it has an impact, right? You can the the quantity is a thing. And uh but but not always it represents quality well, right? And you can uh like any system, you can tweak it and you can uh manipulate it uh to create things that have no calories but uh damage your hormones in other ways, right? And um so it's a system, it's uh it's a solid uh way to look at things, but uh I'm not sure. It's uh it's like science. It's uh it's there, it exists, it's a paradigm to look at things through. It doesn't really solve the problem for a lot of people. Um and and mainly because you can't really count. You need to build intuition uh into that, and you need to build habits, as you framed before. So it's a good system to start and understand. And at a certain point in time in people's journey, nutritional journey, yes, it would be great if they log food and they understand calories. But uh at Lumen we we talk more about macros because I don't care if you really understand necessarily how many calories a thing is. I want you to know that it's carbs or it's proteins or it's fat, and what is the usage of each and every one of those. So now you become more smart and intuitive about how much carbs you should put in and not just think, try to count calories and balance it because we know it's impossible. It's it's uh the math is not is uh is too much for people to really sit and count all day. But if I know what the fuel is, this is how we teach our daughters. I have we have twin daughters, uh age of 10, and when they eat, they look at food as the fuel for their goals in a way. So I will never tell them you're eating too much, or I would say, oh honey, you're missing proteins in that meal. Um you should you should definitely invest in that because you want your muscle to be built better. And now it's uh it's not about uh you know being ripped or it's not about anything, it's about education, it's nutrition literacy. So I think calories are an angle for things, but there are maybe more important angles to uh really adopt good behavior.

Yeah, and it's you know, nutrition is such a fascinating landscape as well, because you know, I've joked about with a lot of people too. It's sometimes many times it's harder to change someone's nutritional beliefs than it is their religious beliefs. Right? Like it's you know, especially when you get into um got the carnivore versus the vegan diet versus like paleo, like just I I've seen chairs thrown across a room in like a coaching workshop because how heated people get about their nutritional philosophies. And I feel like this uh this can kind of come in and and offer some sort of like diagnostic. We're like, hey, it it's not about that. So yeah, I'm curious to get your thoughts on like how how has it uh affected the the philosoph the philosophical side of nutrition? People age at different speeds, and the date on your license may not represent your inner biological age at all. If you're looking for ways to extend your health span and slow down the aging process, the keys to health and longevity run in your blood. That's why Insight Tracker provides you with a personalized plan to boost your metabolism, reduce stress, improve sleep, and optimize your health for the long haul. Created by leading scientists in aging, genetics, and biometrics, Insight Tracker analyzes your blood, DNA, and fitness tracking data to identify where you're optimized, more importantly, where you're not. You'll get a daily action plan with personalized guidance on the right exercise, nutrition, and supplementation for your body. Add Interage 2.0 to any plan for a definitive calculation of your true biological age to see how you're aging from the inside out. I was proud to find out I'm a few years younger than I thought I was. For a limited time, you can get 20% off the entire Inside Tracker store. Just go to insight tracker.com forward slash future to check it out, learn more, and get your own. It's insight tracker.com forward slash future. On to the show.

Yeah, I I we try to avoid that because of several things.

We because first, like there are there are things we recommend, right? We know the value of vegetables, we know the value of uh lean protein, we know the value of fat, and we know the value of fat protein as well. And and we try to look at things um more in on the macro level or the micro level to some extent, and try to avoid um you know getting into the food wars uh to that extent. Why? Also, because we don't know everything and we want to uh share what we know and what we're researching, because everything we we talk about is rooted in in science and in art, in the science we look at, and it's our interpretation of science sometimes. And we need to understand that until we will have the ability and the data to, as humanity, to really do a very thorough research about people because we'll have all their data, I don't know when will that happen, um we'll not be able to say things uh in a very concrete way. So we need to be very real scientists, I feel that are very cautious about everything they claim. They're trying not to to uh uh you know, not build momentum or or pathos to what they're talking about, but they want to know this is what I know, this is for the best of my my knowledge. And you know, because we're trying to sell balance, everyone has their own balance. So I want to be there for a vegan person, like I want to be there for the the carnivore person. And I don't want to uh I don't want to tell them anything about what they're doing. I want to show them, like put a mirror in front of them and say, this is how it's impacting your body. So you can now make decisions. Oh, and I can suggest some things, um, but it's up to you to continue from where you are right now and not change everything. I'm not trying to sell a new religion. I don't believe that they stick for long term, those types of religions.

Yeah, well said, man. Good answer. Uh so let's get back to like what Lumen does. So I I take my my test in the morning, what is it, like 10 seconds or something like that? What does the test involve? Is it something I do multiple times a day? What happens with the information I get back? Give us more details on that. Sure.

So um what we do is uh it's a test that takes about a minute or so, and it's uh it's you take the device and you inhale through the device a certain volume of air that lumen really guides you towards, and you hold the air in your lungs for 10 seconds and then you exhale. And that process is guided through through an interface in the app, and then you'll see your your level basically, your lumen level, which means level one indicates that you're using mainly fat or only fats, and level five means that you're using mainly carbs, and you have that uh the gap in the middle that shows uh where are you more leaning towards fat, half and half, or leaning toward carbs. Um, and after you get that level and you add some data, Lumen builds you a personalized nutrition plan for the day. And that plan takes into account whether you're working out and what type of workout, and whether you have uh an event or you're planning to fast tonight. Um and it tries to uh understand what's planned for you ahead today and and understand all the data about you if you haven't slept. Uh if you are a woman on um on a certain phase in the menstrual cycle, we try to understand holistically all the data about you to give you the best recommendation of when to eat carbs, how much, and when maybe to stop eating. And that's um and that's what Lumen does is not only a measurement device, it's also kind of a guidance system. And when you give it your goal, it could be a weight goal and other goals uh as we move forward. Uh what it does is really drives you there. It's really like a GPS to some extent. Try to help you with embracing new habits and and with understanding quantities and with knowledge. And the challenge is huge, but uh but the uh as huge the challenge is, it's uh it's fascinating to research and to explore that and to innovate within that.

Uh and one of the things I'm wondering as uh for the coaching community, is this a tool that is useful for them? Can they make use of the data um that's coming from Lumen or is it specifically just directed towards the consumer?

That's uh so we build it direct uh towards the consumer. And having that said, we have uh been starting to explore uh work with wellness clinics and with coaches that uh are using this with their uh with their customers. And uh it even though it was not uh a coach product to begin with, because we wanted people to be able to analyze and act on that data themselves, because we believe that this is important for the simplicity, and and if we nail that, we can then uh move also to uh assisting coaches. Um but having a human in the in the process, in the process of uh your nutritional journey, and the process you need to embrace behavioral change is is extremely important, and we identify that. So on the one hand, we support coaches that want to use Lumen. Um, and on the other hand, we have our own team of experts that is really answering questions within the app, within the product. So you can have access to a nutritionist and you can have access to a metabolic expert that will look at your data. And uh there is a lot of hand holding in the first uh few weeks to really help people get to the rhythm of it and understand. And um, and as we do that, the product team here is is gradually learning from these interactions and improving the product based on customers' feedback. So so we try eventually to uh kind of uh build or amplify that coach uh notion um and to allow the humans to really do uh as little work as possible to support as many people as possible.

Nice. You know, uh one of the questions I have for you because I've seen so many um consumer products who have a ton of value, like Lumen, right? And the hardest thing is to get the consumer in the habit of using the thing, right? So taking that test every morning. Uh Morpheus, it's getting people to take an HRV uh recording every morning. It's like these little things that you and I look at, we're like, that's like three minutes of your life at most. But to get the consumer to take a half degree shift in their behavior is monumental, and it's really hard. I look at apps like um or some of these, or Headspace, right? They give you that like 10 for 10. And then you start to get you know build a little confidence, then you get into it. But how how have you guys approached that that challenge? Because I I would imagine that's probably one of the biggest ones you have.

It's uh it definitely is. Um I think it's really also about um the commitment and the reason people buy Lumen to begin with. So it's um it's usually people who care now deeply about their nutrition or they want to lose weight, so they have a goal and they're willing to invest um in buying this device which is not or subscribing to the subscription service because you can no longer just buy the device, but it's uh so there is a commitment to it, and those people are already committed to make a change in their nutrition. So for us, as opposed to just measuring HRV because uh, you know, it's uh an aspirational goal or something like when you have a goal and people are are willing to commit, um, there is uh a good tailwind to start that journey. Um one of the key values Lumen is uh is investing in is that motivation, is how we can uh cross the let's say average 16 weeks of uh of uh diet, that is the average uh diet uh period of time where people are willing to invest and have the motivation and to put a lot of effort and making changes, not always changes that will last. And eventually a lot of the time nothing really sticks. So what Lumen is investing in is building this journey. So the level of intensity that you need to invest in this system is changing as well. So at the beginning, people are measuring you know five times a day because they're interested, they want to learn, they and eventually something sticks, like uh brushing your teeth in the morning. Eventually you have that ritual. And if you provide, if Lumen provides enough value, and we're constantly uh looking to build that, uh then the habit becomes worthwhile. So those values could be better recommendations. The more the system knows you, the more it can recommend on several aspects of your life, right? Um those values could be, and we're looking at you know all the spectrum of the problem. One of the trials we we've made is we took 15 people in Manhattan and they took a measurement in the morning, and we sent them an email with three meals uh based on their uh their habits, their uh food preferences, and their nutrition plan for today and their goals. And they clicked and we door dashed those meals uh their way. And for six weeks, those people ate and paid, of course, but ate Lumen lunch Monday to Friday, and all of them wanted to continue at some capacity. So um, so these are the things that are uh let's say we we would love to innovate on, where we change the default and we provide value that uh that extends beyond just the the digital in a way. If we can solve the problem, if we can reach out from the system and really help be there for you, this is uh where we want to be. And uh and that's the challenge. You're absolutely right. The challenge is making people to care about their health and about their well-being on a daily basis. But if um if uh Facebook and Instagram, right, if uh people have been uh captured by technology uh in the space of boredom or communication, I believe it can happen for health as well. I believe it can happen for for their well-being. Um technology can use can be used uh also for that uh for that level of engagement, and this is what excites us.

Yeah, yeah, it's really exciting, man. I mean it it's it's a gateway into nutrition, and you know, to not to belabor the point, but it's shocking to me that with all the information on human history and data that we have, that nutrition is still such a enigma. You know, like we don't know we still we know shockingly little.

It's very local, it's cultural, it's um it's uh you know, our history, in our history, we struggled to find enough food, right? Uh our the challenge was not really the the same challenge in a way, it's just getting food was the thing, and now we're just in uh in an influx, right? That it's it's the other way around. Um we need to get the right food, we need to get local food, we need to get healthy food. Now it's uh the the challenge is different. Um but um but yeah, I I agree. That's that's what uh pulled us into this uh to this space. It's uh you know, I've been working on this, and us as founders, we've been doing this for eight years, and really it feels like uh, you know, I I would do another eight, I would do another twenty. I really don't care because it's uh going deep into the problem and understanding it and understanding what's the role of science. You know, when we started, we believed that measurements can solve everything because if people will see, then then it's done. They can't see today, and now they will be able to see their metabolism. That's it, we're done. And uh like the the the scientific hat in us was very uh very confident. And then we started uh doing tests with uh customers in 2017 and we realized wow, it's not that. It's not the science has a significant role. The feedback loop is important, it's unique, but we need to do so much more. We really need to uh we need to build so so many different muscles uh as entrepreneurs to be able to confront with that. We need to be good at behavioral change, we need to be uh accurate in content, we need to uh to integrate a lot of data because the story is complex. So uh so yeah, it's a very big problem to uh to invest in and work on.

Yeah, that's one of the things that we were talking about before recording. I was excited about like in it's it's like you said, it's it's it's not funny, but it is kind of comical that you're like, okay, we'll just gotta show people the data and then we're out, right? We're done. Yeah, no problem. Everything will change, right? It's not that simple. It's very complicated, it's very individual, and uh, you know, it's very um societal, right? It's very uh you know, there's so many things that go into it. We're complex beings.

I I believe that there is no more room in like humanity for just more data. So it's uh and I'm of course I'm uh I'm exaggerating, but for consumers, if you give them uh another bit of data, it's uh there is no, let's say there is no room to innovate on new devices that measures, just measure new things. You need to understand the full problem and your role within that problem and as an entrepreneur. And at some point you need to decide whether this uh device you created is the company, or the company is much bigger than the device, even though the device is not just innovation, it's an invention. There is um the the problem has roots in so many places, so you need to decide whether you partner with someone else who solved the problem and you just provide the technology, or you um you found something which is not just uh measurement, you found uh maybe a different philosophy or paradigm, like calories that you mentioned, to look at our body. Um, another paradigm to understand what we're eating and how it's uh impacting us, and when we feel great when we're working out, and when we're worn out, and and making those connections um and and telling the story of metabolism. So no one could do that for us. So that was another crucial decision we made. We we we took a decision to be the owners of the story, of the story of what is metabolism, and to research that and to be out with that. So it's uh it's a almost a bigger mission than uh. Inventing the device. That, you know, we didn't invent the metric. You can measure metabolism today, but it costs tens of thousands of dollars and the lab equipment and about 30 minutes to sit down with a mask and and you know breathe continuously. And the invention here was the method and also the sensors that were developed for about almost three years. And after you finish that work of taking that measurement and shrinking it to something that you can put in your pocket, then you need to make a decision: how big can this really be? Or should it really be?

It's it's the crawling, you're spot on. I agree with you 100%. It's like we don't need more data, right? What we need is what I call the now what problem. Right? It's like, okay, I get these metrics, now what? What do I do with it? What's the interpretation? What are the action items? How do I simplify it so that people, you know, the everyday Joe and Jane can take action on it? And that's that's the challenge now.

We need coaching in a way, right? We want to be coached, but sometimes the the problem with coaching is that uh it requires a lot of time, and sometimes it uh lacks uh context. And uh and technology can can really amplify that and minimize the time and and can gradually amplify coaches, sometimes replace coaches for specific people, and sometimes no, not. And it's fine, but I think that's the that's the opportunity, a different model of coaching, which is uh as you need and uh and really you know what drives you forward and not the model of selling my I don't need you to sell me your time, I want to buy the success in a way, right? So technology can help bridge that.

Totally.

Yeah, awesome, man. I I know we're we're starting to butt up on time here because I and I have a couple more key questions I want to ask you. But uh number one is and and share what you feel comfortable, but where is the business at today? Like have you guys taking investment money? What kind of um you know how many uh devices you guys have out there? What what is what does the metrics on the business look like?

So um we're selling uh very nicely these days. I can uh we we raise investors' money, obviously. It's uh we've been here since 2014, so it uh so we have a lot of investors, uh, many entrepreneurs that uh believed in this, uh and some more, let's say, established funds as well. Um you need venture fund in order to kind of lift this thing off the ground. It's uh the there is a hardware component, investment in inventory, investment in building sensors, the next evolution of sensors. And while you're at it, you need the 90% of the team is actually solving software problems, behavioral change, nutrition, answering customers. So it's almost like running two companies in parallel in terms of capital intensity. Um in terms of the business, uh, I can I can share that we um are already uh selling in let's say in the areas of the 100K and uh a year. And that's um and we are no longer selling devices. As of August uh this year, we realized that um we we um we want to be compensated on the success in the journey. So uh we basically uh sell a subscription where you buy we buy a subscription and you subscribe for three months or four months or six months or a year, and uh with that subscription, we are in a way compensated on your retention, on your success. So this is a model where we are now aligned with our customers in in uh in their goal. In a way, if we are not successful, they they will not stay with us, they will churn, and we we should probably do better. So this is um this has been an exciting shift because uh there aren't many devices that you sell uh in a subscription model. Whoop is an example, um, but but that's uh an exciting uh to to be kind of a pioneer in that uh in that domain of uh of hardware subscription base. But um but it really changed the company. It changed how we look at our customers, it changed what we celebrate. Um and it's uh and I never imagined how changing the business model can be so impactful on so many areas of the business that you wouldn't imagine um are driven by uh by the business model you're selling your uh your service. So this is this is something uh I can share. I know I didn't give too many too much details about uh you know funding and how much exactly are we selling, but uh the company is doing very nice these days. I can I can share that.

Awesome, man. That's great to hear. Uh so I guess the last question, Daniel, is you know, if people want to get a hold of you or learn more um, you know, about what you're doing, uh, you know, maybe investors or whoever, um where do you send them online? Where would you like people to go?

Sure. So I think uh www.lumen l-u-m-en- dot me, that'd be a good place to start. And I'm uh I'm on LinkedIn now, mostly gradually moving towards hopefully uh get some of your uh inspired by you and start publishing a bit more because I like it. I think it's uh I think it's important for the story and also for me to to interact and to get feedback. So but I'm currently on LinkedIn, so you can approach me. Um and that's uh yeah, that's that's the way to start, I think.

Yeah, awesome, man. Well, Daniel, thank you so much for joining me today. Um you know it's it it's a really fascinating problem that you're tackling. And it's it's something that's it it it affects everyone, right? Even like a performance athlete to someone who you know is morbidly obese and everything in between. There, it's a huge problem. And uh you guys are out there trying to solve it, so I really commend what you're doing. It's awesome.

Thank you, Eric, so much. It was uh a pleasure sharing this, and uh I I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, my pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen, Daniel Tallmore. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Minute. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it. iTunes, Spotify, Castbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. We want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me, simply go to the futurofitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone, and this is the future of fitness. Have a great day.