Bridging The Gap Between Training & Therapy - Ryan Whited

It is useful to know, you know, about tibial torsions and antiverted hips and retroverted hips and all those things. Like I dedicated all that stuff to my brain wanting to preemptively take care of people. And then come to find out, a lot of those diagnostics don't do what we thought they did. I I think there are over 200 diagnostic tests for the shoulder. One of them does the thing that they thought it did. One.

Hey fitness fans, welcome back to the Future of Fitness Podcast and Interview Series. This is your host, Eric Baltone, and I'm coming at you from Whitefish, Montana, in my upstairs studio with my studio Dog River, who's doing what he does best, sleeping and occasionally licking himself. And this is episode number 112. So I talked to Ryan Whiten. Ryan is the co-founder, I believe, along with his wife, of Paragon Athletics in Flagstaff, Arizona. Sounds like an amazing place, by the way. It's on my short list of places to go visit and live for a while. So what is Ryan up to? He's been in the game for a long time. He's been in the trenches. He works with a lot of high-level athletes, and as well as your everyday Joes and James, right? He's formerly a sponsored rock climber, professional rock climber. He works with a lot of endurance and rock climbers at his gym. That's not necessarily what makes Ryan unique. And you can tell from this conversation, he's a very smart person. He's very intuitive in the work he does, but he's bridging the gap between physical therapy and fitness training, for lack of a better term. He'll explain it in this interview. And the cool thing about it, the thing I love, right? He's disrupting. And it's one of my favorite things. He's ruffling feathers. He's not scared to go out there and ruffle some feathers and change the way things are viewed upon. Maybe if you're a physical therapist, you won't like some of this. It's possible. Maybe if you're a fitness trainer, you will like a lot of it, right? So without further ado, let's get into it. Oh, before I do, I want to read a review from Ben Reuter at one of our sister podcasts, Moving to Lip. So if you don't know Ben, he has an amazing podcast. It's all about breaking down knowledge silos within the fitness and health and wellness industries. And he does a great job. Very similar missions to what we have here with his own unique style and flavor. And Ben writes, if you are in the fitness world, this podcast keeps you abreast of what is interesting, of what interesting professionals are doing. It is a must subscribe. Ben, thank you for the review. You all, if you haven't gone to iTunes or wherever you're listening to this and uh drop a review uh and subscribe to this, I would greatly appreciate it. It takes two minutes and it goes such a long way. So that being said, thanks again, Ben Reuter of Moving to Live, and let's get on to the podcast episode number 112 with Ryan Whited of Paragon Athletics. Enjoy. And we're live. Ryan Whited, welcome back. Well, I say welcome back because you're on the Fitness Blitz, but this is your first time in the future of fitness. But uh yeah, man, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited. You do a lot of really, really cool things. Your perspective, uh, your background, your story. I I just I love all of it and I'm I'm excited to have you here. And uh thanks, Ben Reuter, by the way, for moving to live to uh podcast for for recommending you and and connecting us. So uh let's do this, man. Let's kick it off with a little bit of your background, your biography, and some of your story.

Okay. Uh I am a trainer uh in Flagstaff, Arizona. I'm also a lifelong athlete. I've been a sponsored athlete for nearly 20 years. I uh was this I am the son of a racehorse jockey, so a professional athlete, uh, which is always fascinating to people.

Yeah.

So I grew up uh understanding uh seasonal lifestyle of athletics. Um moving, we move six times a year uh to accommodate the race schedule and it's funny, my entire like childhood was built around athletics. So and I've been fascinated with athletics my entire life. So I I remember watching uh Bill Casmire and Bruce Lee and Mark Allen and all those folks. Like as a kid, I remember seeing my first Iron Man and uh watching Mark Allen cross the line and then watching folks crawl for the rest of the day. Uh yeah, and it just I've always been moved by athletics. So yeah. Um currently sponsored.

What where were you sponsored as?

Uh climber.

Climber.

Cool. Yeah. My wife and I are both boulders. Uh we started Paragon Athletics about officially on the books. We started almost 10 years ago. Uh we work with outdoor athletes primarily. Uh, and then we also nowadays do a lot of what folks would consider therapy. Um, we call it training, but uh a lot of folks would consider it therapy, working with folks through musculoskeletal issues primarily. Awesome.

Awesome. And I think you know, one of the big topic that we're gonna tackle so people can uh take a listen and know that you should stay tuned on this one is that um uh you know, bridging that gap between training and treatment, right? And what the future of that looks like um because you're doing it, you know, you're pushing forward. Um you're you know, figuratively and um sure literally sometimes the the tip of the spear, right? Yeah, this area. And it's a place that a lot of fitness professionals want to go. It's where I believe um fitness and health and medical and medicine will all merge, you know, yeah, hopefully, into one thing in the future. So it's it's uh stick around and understand this, people, because it's really, really important. And uh Ryan's doing the work right now. So um you uh you have a really before we get that, you have a really interesting story because you uh you lived in a van, right? We did, we did.

And you know what's funny is that's our retirement plan. We're going back there. So yeah, uh as soon as we finish up with this mission of riding the ship, um, I think my wife and I are looking to get back into the van and climbing as much as possible again. Awesome.

Awesome.

We're uh you know, as of today's January 4th. Yeah, my wife and I, I think I told you we're building out a van right now. Yeah, should be ready in February. So oh, maybe our maybe our retirement plans. Are you gonna get it soon or are you gonna keep it old?

Uh oh no, no. At this point, um, so we have we have a 1984 Westphalia. Okay. Uh and at this point, it's the most modern vehicle we own. So it has uh we put a new motor in it, L new electronics, and it runs off of solar. And at this point, it looks like an old hippie van, but it's actually kind of modernized.

So yeah, cool, cool. Yeah, my um my wife is a is a rock climber and uh you know, more traditional. Uh she does track climbing, and uh I'm very, very novice, but I did pick up a couple key terms, and one of them that I really love is dirt bagging. Um we are dirtbags.

Yeah. Ben Ritter uh mentioned he he kind of apologized before he said that. And I was like, no, man, that's that's a badge.

So I wear that proudly. Yeah, my wife, uh she has a group of like, I think it's five or six women, they're all rock climbers, and they they don't meet up as much as they used to. They used to do like 120 days a year or something ridiculous, and uh they call themselves the dirt barbies, right? Classy. Uh let's get a little bit more into your story, man. So, how you know you you started this gym, um, you're living out of a van, and then it started evolving. How did you kind of like work your way into what you're doing now? What's the background?

So the impetus for uh our current state uh uh uh was an injury that I went through. I uh it was probably around 13 years ago now. Uh Betsy and I were climbing. We moved back to Arkansas for a little bit, and I was looking really forward to revisiting some old climbs that I hadn't wrapped up. And so got there and I started developing sort of I I described it as like a headache in my shoulder. Uh so it took me most of a year, and I had been training people for years at that point. So I people came to me for advice on you know health, wellness, and everything. And I felt outfitted to answer those questions. Uh and then after that, going through that process, I realized I wanted to know a lot more to take care of people better. Uh and that was really the impetus. So I I ended up finding somebody that did help me, but it did take most of a year. Uh, and it was a very frustrating process. You know, uh we we live on movement. Um, it's what makes us happy. So uh it it pushed me in this direction to know as much as I could possibly know to take very good care of our athletes. So I ended up going to courses, like I would go, I would go to courses that were designed uh for medical professionals, you know, for um therapists and docs, and I would always get that look like, why are you in this room? Uh and then they would double check with me if I understood everything. Are you sure you understand this? I was like, Yeah, thank you. Patting you on the head. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I was like, Yeah, I I get it. Thank you. Uh so uh, which uh, you know, I mean, I understand. Um definitely I got the vibe every once in a while where I people felt like I was cutting in line, you know, uh um education-wise. So, but that wasn't my intention. I'm not trying to offend anybody. I'm still not trying to offend anybody. I'm still just trying to take care of people, care of athletes. So uh I would go to those courses, I bought textbooks. My wife and I had like $10 at the time. So every time I would want to fly across the country and learn about histological changes and connective tissue, she was like, Do you sure that this is pertinent to what we do? And uh, you know, eight years ago, uh I wasn't sure how pertinent it was. I just knew I wanted to be the best at what I was doing. But now uh that you see the shifts that we do in the strength and conditioning world and in the therapy world, it absolutely was pertinent, and we happen to be cutting edge, in my opinion. Um so it's been quite a process. And it was it in the last two years, we have really settled into being comfortable about how we do things. Um knowing uh we we have people a lot of times when they come here, they don't understand the level of knowledge that uh the trainers have here. Um so uh we've gotten really confident about where we where we are and what we're doing at this point. So we've gone through the learning process and we made mistakes, everybody makes mistakes, and um uh but at this point we are really comfortable uh doing what we do and how we do it. Yeah. Yeah. So and what do you do? You know, um so a lot of my day now, I don't do as many classes as I used to do. Um we have earned the reputation uh locally and even outside of Flagstaff now. I've had people that come to visit me from out of town and even out of state uh to help people through musculoskeletal issues, like I said. Um sometimes uh well very often actually, um, those folks have been passed through the medical system. Um and we have case after case after case of these scenarios where people are like, well, I've been seeing people for six years for you know, ilotibial band syndrome. I'm like, why in the world would anybody have to see somebody that long for elotibial band syndrome? Um and thankfully we've had a lot of success stories. Uh so and it's earned us a reputation uh for being those people that can help folks get over the hump. So uh probably 50% of my day is helping those people, um, those athletes. And then the other half is just training folks. So what would look more like you know, typical training? So but in we we don't see a difference in the two. And and we don't think they're they should be seen as different things. Uh and we think therapists are moving the same direction. Um there you see like strength therapists, the prehab guys, uh, you see all of these folks that are, you know, trying to do what we've been doing for 10 years. Um so you see them all moving this direction, and we think it's gonna be great for everybody. Um it's it's a definitely a healthier way. Um the British Journal of Sports Medicine, I think I shared that uh link with you. Yeah, this morning. Yeah, the you know, they over the last year, all of a sudden, uh even those folks are saying, should we reframe this whole concept of you know treatment? Um and yes, we should, in our opinion. And that's what we've been doing for quite a while at this point.

Yeah. So so what you're saying is like, you know, the experience at Paragon at your gym, your facility, you know, it's it's most people probably come in because they're slightly broken. I'm gonna use myself an example because I think I'm a good one. I'm 42, right? Nothing my whole life. Um, some shit just doesn't work like it used to work, you know. You know, I call it my shitty left ankle. Um my left shoulder uh is just kind of weaker than the right, doesn't have quite as much mobility as it used to. Um, you know, I do get uh IT band syndrome occasionally if I'm you know overdoing it. Um you know, I come into your facility and also I like to stay very active, you know, uh ski 60, 70 days a year, um, do whatever I can in the summer when I have time, you know, I do it all. Um and that's really important to me, right? But yeah, I'm not quite at the level where I'm like, well, I don't know if I I should see a physical therapist, right? Uh go through that whole process because I've been there, you know people who are super injured, right? Am I the right, am I that, am I your ideal client or someone you can really help? Or do you even go with people who are more broken than me?

Oh no, we at this point I've worked with uh sometimes I look back and think, what how the hell did I end up in this like working with these this population? Um but I'm thankful that I am because because we do have really good outcomes. Um uh so I have worked with people that with dystonia and all kinds of other issues at this point. Um, most of who I work with uh uh are musculoskeletal, like you know, ankles that are dinged up and um shoulders that are dinged up and um and just help people through that process. So we we we think coaching people through that process is much better than uh sequestering them into therapy. Uh even psychologically, it's a lot better. Um, you know, if Kelly Starrett started some of this ball rolling, uh, you know, and uh it was right about the time it was actually just a few years before that that I had this notion as well. Um, and he worked at it from the PT side into the strength and conditioning side, and I worked at it from the strength and conditioning side toward the therapy side. Um, and now the two are kind of coalescing. And um, so he started it, and I appreciate his model. Uh but I've in some ways uh uh not to take away from what Kelly's done because I think he's he's it's amazing what he's done. Yeah. Um I agree. Uh yeah. But I feel like the the fix it model uh can be not the healthiest approach to our bodies, to tell you the truth. We we've decided uh we started using the term, so you're you're not a garage, you're a garden, and it's just a better way to look at your health. Um, rather than fixing yourself, you're tending to yourself, you're taking care of yourself. It's more of a you know, a process of care rather than you know looking at your health as something that is broken and constantly it's fixing, you know, like an old broken-down car. It's more of like, oh, I it rained really hard last night and I probably lost some tomatoes, but I'm gonna plant more tomatoes because I grow tomatoes. So uh it's just a better way to look at our health, you know, yeah, psychologically. So so that's that's kind of the how we've been approaching it, and that's how we're a little different than Kelly's version of this, too, is you know, um Kelly's he's an interesting cat, I've taken his uh some of those courses, and he's uh energetic.

Yeah, yeah. He was one of my very first CrossFit coaches in San Francisco. Oh, was he really? Yeah, I uh so I joined another facility, and then I, you know, I didn't know no one knew what was going on in 08 with CrossFit. And uh I started hearing about you know this guy Kelly who was doing these weightlifting Wednesdays. So I would go over there and uh lunch on Wednesdays and get coached by Kelly, and then and then I heard something, and then he was my uh PT, um, which he was doing out of a uh storage container uh out of the back of uh of uh I can't remember the sports store in in uh in San Francisco, but just in you know, he he was an open the whole thing was amazingly inexpensive the way he was running it. And I would imagine overhand was amazing, but he did really good work. And you know, he looked at what you know. I think he started looking at physical therapy as like towards a form of function, like what is this person trying to accomplish? Right, and putting the whole thing in perspective. And then obviously, you know, he started mobility wallet and that thing just blew up. And uh now he works with NFL teams and all that. And right. Um so let's let's keep diving into this because I think it's you know, if if I'm let's put this in the perspective of like, you know, I'm a personal trainer, right? Maybe I'm a facility owner. I'm like, okay, I'm starting to understand what uh what Ryan's talking about here, what the vision is gonna look like. What do I start doing to progress to that? Is there specific pieces of education? Is it just is it a mindset? Is it like it's probably all of it, right?

It is. And you know, some of some of the folks uh so I was I was tagged into a conversation. Uh the and the title of this conversation, uh, it was on Facebook was or the question posed was what's the difference between training and treatment? Um I I think there were like maybe 10 different therapists on there and one trainer, I was the trainer. So the question was posed by a friend of uh mine that is uh a PT. She actually let her license lapse because she was so frustrated with the industry. Wow. Uh and that was that was the impetus for her uh making that decision was that conversation. So I let the conversation go for a day, and I thought, I don't know if I want to be get into this, you know, do do I and so literally sticking your neck out, right?

Oh my gosh, yeah.

And so finally, after a day of comments, I I think I in in all bolds was like, there is no difference. Um so and then there was some comments back. Uh so and then you know, I am not trying to offend anybody. I try to say this all the time. I I understand the level of education, uh, and that's actually the point that I'm getting to right now is I understand the level of education that therapists have. Um it's they you know, they have they have a doctorate and they're have advanced degrees, you know. And so um so after a few days of this conversation, I think it went on for like six days, uh, um they realized, oh this this guy actually knows what he's talking about.

Um and was this in a forum, like a Facebook, Twitter? It was Facebook, yeah. Okay, okay uh and so for all the craziness, really.

Oh, totally. Yeah. And so I I didn't want to, you know, some sort of rant. I actually wanted a conversation. So Which it it was. It was great. I think everybody came away. They actually said, We really don't know what to make of you. And I was like, well, that's fine, because I know what to make of you.

So but back to your question.

Um is there is a lot of education that has to you have to have. And I've just done the footwork that most trainers aren't gonna do. The other side of that is therapists don't have that training either. So they don't have the strength conditioning side of this. You know, it's it's more complicated. They're the the curriculum is like 20 years out of date. Um so and not to be critical. So please, I don't want to get like a bunch of messages to me where people are like, Well, you're out of your lane, bud.

Well, I don't worry about it, yeah.

Don't worry about it. I get messages every week where people are offended, and I'm like, I don't, I am not trying to offend anybody. So I just think it's time to come to the table and rethink this in a in a big radical way, uh, to better care for people. So um, so so that my to your question, not every trainer should be doing what we're doing, and and not every therapist should be doing what we're doing either. So it's it's a uh coalescence that's a new thing. And it's coming around, but um you you should take everything that people say with a grain of salt if you see it on the internet.

So yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, anytime okay, one of the worst things we can do is look at something and do it away because that's the way it's always been done. Yeah. Right? Not not stopping and critically thinking about things because it's the shit's changing too fast. I mean, right now things are changing so fast in every aspect of our lives, faster than it's ever been in the history of humankind. Right? So you gotta really step back and be like, okay, now we'll compare it to one month ago, we have this many more tools. We have this much more education. Look at education itself. Yeah, right. My wife learned how to ski through YouTube. Right. Right. I mean, now look at the end product. Is that her, you know, would she be a better, is she a more qualified skier if she had a you know, a ski coach or someone who is certified? No, she skis great, right? Uh-huh. That's just a small example, but you know, education is differing now. Um it's totally different. I mean, it's it's everywhere. The the amount of information and the biggest thing we can do, and the biggest shift, in my opinion, is not necessarily it's like, well, how much can you memorize, right? Or how much because the information's out there. Yeah. It's at your fingertips at any point you want it, right? It's how you critically think, right? It's how you look at all the information and take that intuition and that critical thinking, put it all together and solve problems. Yeah. And I I want to like people who haven't checked out your website, you have an amazing, you really want to know, get inside what Ryan does and his team. Go to his website, check out the video they have as a promo video. I watched it before your first interview. I was like, just seeing like what you're doing with people. Like, I've never seen those type of movements. I've never seen like that. Like, what the hell is going on here? Uh and uh and then I interview, I'm like, okay, now it's starting to make sense. He's just doing things differently than everybody else. And he's looking at things from a different point of view, and it's that's gonna scare some people. Oh, absolutely. I think bugs people all the time. I think the better work you're probably doing.

Yeah, that's kind of I feel too. What's really funny is uh we've had quite a few folks that are therapists that have trained by this, um, and then they have gone and started their own businesses that like liter literally mirror our business. Like, yeah, well, that's flattery, you know? So yeah, so it's you can tell everybody's making this move this direction. So, and there's people's egos get a little ruffled and whatever, but um at the end of the day, I think this is gonna be such a better form of care.

Yeah.

So yeah.

I mean, are you saying that there's egos in the fitness and health case? No. No. Oh, nonsense. Um give us give us some more examples because I know it's it's tough for people unless they can see you working, but maybe give us another example of a like a typical client or a client that you would work with where you really brought the two together, right? Training and treatment.

Like, and what would it look like? Well, so um, I don't know if you know who Rob Carr is. He's a one of our uh he's an endurance athlete. Uh he does schemo. Um he is a pretty renowned ultra runner. Um and he's on the North Face team. Last year he was in a race, he took a mid misstep. It was a muddy course. He was within the last, I think, one or two miles of the uh uh finish line. Hyperextended his knee and uh uh suffered essentially what's called a kissing injury, so he knocked out a good portion of articular cartilage from his knee. Um went through a surgery that was pretty novel um uh slash experimental, and he did his entire recovery with us. So um his first day was with us to his last day. So uh we just it was funny because now I know his surgeon, uh, and his surgeon actually works with us now. Uh but before he did, Rob said, I just want to work with these people, and his surgeon, every time I would see him, he was like, He can't do squats. And I was like, he's a weight bear. Why do you keep thinking I'm gonna ask him to do squats? You know, but I think it's because people just think of a trainer as, you know, uh these people that can only do these very linear things, you know, and they all they do is super simplistic things. They don't understand, you know, properception and you know how tissue lays down and scars and time it takes. And but some of us out there have dedicated our mind to uh knowing those things. So Rob did his total rehab with us uh last year. He had a very successful year, and um his surgeon uh told him that we we actually had a conversation uh and went back and forth on whether we should actually share this with Rob. Uh and finally his surgeon decided and I decided that we should, is that it was very likely a career-ending injury. Um, and you know, Rob's a professional athlete, he's one of the best ever. So uh so um, and thankfully he had a crazy year last year. He was he was very successful, so and it was a long, long road. Um, but I went to every meeting with him with a surgeon, um, and we got there wasn't there's not really a protocol for his surgery because it is so novel. Um so we just kind of would go and have a meeting with a surgeon, um get a direction to go, and then it was funny I started sending him videos just to confirm and you know, so he didn't know I was having him do squats. So uh yeah, and so that that's kind of the folks that we work with now. And you know, I I've had quite a few folks, like professional climbers, that have come to us that have said, you know, you have to have shoulder surgery or you won't climb at this level again. Um and we will say, you know, you're you're years out from this injury, like there's no hurry. Let's let's see if we can get your uh function back up and reduce your pain and go from there. And then come to find out, they end up climbing as hard or harder than they've ever climbed, you know, without any surgical intervention. So, and there's definitely, I don't want to uh there's a time for surgical interventions, you know. So we work closely with quite a few surgeons here in town. So I'm not down on surgery or anything. Just oftentimes we we can find a different way through, you know, a less invasive.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll so that that's kind of our people.

Yeah, uh it's it's awesome. And I, you know, I I I do feel it's surgery begets more surgery quite often. And um, you know, I had 2010, I had a couple of herniated two discs in my back, um, well, you know, just being at that age, 31, 32, um, a lot of activity and then getting into you know the the sport of weightlifting uh at the age of 31, right? Yeah. And then uh, you know, I heard these two discs. I I turned to a lot of people, you know, the first person I actually called was was Kelly. And I'm like, well, what I do, and he recommended me to a physical therapist that you know I could work with locally. So I was no longer in San Francisco, and um, you know, I got a series of three injections, and then at that point it just wasn't he gave me enough to do the gave me enough pain tolerance to deal with physical therapy, right? And then, you know, out after three injections, I was like, well, this just ain't working, you know. So I'm like, okay, well, I guess my only option was going under the knife, right? Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, like a freaking miracle, uh, this guy, Dr. Eric Goodman, walks into my my uh gym, and uh he's the he's if you guys haven't met, you'd be great, great conversation, I'm sure. But he started foundation training, which was you know oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, chiropractor, and you know, he starts showing me these moves and and things that I can do on a daily basis and correcting the movement and and you know, working with the fascia, all these different things. And then three months later, man, I was lifting just as heavy, if not heavier, than I was before. Yeah. And uh, you know, I think um what's interesting is that I ask this question all the time to people who care about the fitness industry. Um, people are in it, and I, you know, how do we get to the point where we are respected, um, valued um as much as some of the professions like dentistry or physical therapists, or you know, you name it, right? Just name a respected and valued profession, right? Right. Attorneys, right? Well, respected, valued, right? Yeah. Um sorry, attorneys. Um but uh you get that question. I think what I see from my perspective is what you're doing is is heading in that direction, absolutely.

Which we so that is one of the problems that we see is people don't understand. When I say that physical therapy, when there's no difference between therapy and training um concerning musculoskeletal, uh, it confuses people. Um and they they can't unsee the model, you know, that's been in front of them for 30 years. So for instance, I'll get little notes all the time with people that I'm working with uh and from their therapist. Uh so there ends up being this like power grab too, where people are like, oh no, no, I'm the authority on this. And I'm like, well, just calm down, okay? Uh so I'll get little notes, people bring them to me, and they're like, Well, I'm not supposed to use my arm today.

And I'm like, all right, how come?

And so uh and uh like but my shoulder hurts. Like, is there anything sinister there? You know, and they're like, no, there's nothing, you know, no sarcoma sarcoma or anything like that. There's nothing horribly wrong with their shoulder, it just hurts. But I get a note uh like uh from a therapist, and they're like, Yeah, he shouldn't move his arm. And like, well, it's his arm, and data, you know, the research says really moving it is probably the best thing to do. Um, yeah. So so it ends up being this like weird little power struggle, too, uh, which is horrible. Um and and then the people end up, the people that I'm trying to take care of and the people they're trying to take care of get up, get caught in the middle of it, you know, and they don't know who to believe, who to trust. Yeah, and and uh so it ends up being this really frustrating position. And I try to be polite in those situations and tactful, and you know, I'm definitely not gonna bad mouth anybody. And so uh I just try to take care of those people in most in the best way I can when that happens. So um, but absolutely people don't understand that there's not a difference, um, and it confuses them when I say that, and that's what we're trying to change. So yeah.

That's a very, very common scenario that you just outlined there. I think anybody who's in the fitness profession for more than you know, a year has come across that scenario where you know working with somebody who you know has an injury, whether it be chronic or acute, and you know, their doctor says, well, they need to stop all movement. Yeah. Right? You're like, really? How is that gonna, you know, well, let's just how about I just write, go swim? How about just go swim? Can you do that? Right. And then you like you're battling against like, well, what's the minimal thing that we can get away with here and have this person continue to move and and enjoy their life and you know, uh, all these things. And it's, I mean, I dream, I'm a dreamer, you know, maybe I'm stupid, but I always think about like, you know, what if we what if we all worked in tandem? What if the medical professional saw us as an extension of the healing process? Be like, okay, you know, here's what I've seen, here's the you know, whatever, the x-rays, the MRIs, my analysis. And now let's work with a fitness and health professional to do the actual work. Right.

Yeah.

But with with a feedback loop of some sort. Right. Right. And I'm guessing my hope, because I'm really into the tech of fitness, is that technology is gonna help bridge that gap in real time, whether it's real-time biometrics or you know, the the database systems or how analytics are done, whatever it is, I'm hoping. Yeah.

Well, so personally, uh so I'm a part of quite a few uh therapy groups. Um, and I was in I was invited to a few of those, thankfully. Uh so I've managed to keep my the pulse on both ends, on the strength conditioning end and on the therapy end. Um so and then initially, like I so when I went and learned all the diagnostics and all those little tools, I was like, well, I, you know, initially, I uh uh preemptively I want to do these, have insight to an injury. So I would say, you know, if you can't do this with your shoulder, then let's work on that so you don't, you know, develop subbochromial impingement. Um so I wanted to like learn all that stuff that I could apply it preemptively uh and take care of people preemptively. That was my whole idea.

Yeah.

So I did that, I learned all these ridiculous things. Uh, I have so much strange biomechanical knowledge in my head at this point that is useful. Uh it is useful to know you know about tibial torsions and antiverted hips and retroverted hips and all those things. Like I dedicated all that stuff to my brain wanting to preemptively take care of people. And then come to find out, a lot of those diagnostics don't do what we thought they did. Um, so I just did a shoulder course and in Chicago, and I I think there are over 200 diagnostic tests for the shoulder. Uh so 200 just for the shoulder. And one of them does the thing that they thought it did. One. So uh, and so what's what's happening is there there is no gap between those worlds. We we incidentally thought we were doing treating this thing. We weren't. What we were doing was um desensitizing people accidentally and then building up their robustness. We were just training them. Uh so we thought we were affecting these little detailed things, but most often we weren't. We were just like, oh yeah, lift your arm like that. How about does that hurt? Yeah, it does. Okay, how about take it over here for a little bit? How about that? No, it doesn't. How about in a week? Let's come back here. How's that now? It's not as bad. All right. And so, like, we were just incidentally taking people through these movements. And so now what they're saying is like, oh, we use clusters. We use clusters of incidental movements, and that helps. Uh, but it's still just incidental movements, like, sure, some some guy, you know, named Nears, like years ago, decided to put his name on that, but it's still this, this, you know, you can't, it's not making it a real thing still. You're just lifting your arm. Um, so uh, yeah, and so we've realized a lot of these um diagnostics. Uh there was another one that came out um uh about three weeks ago, maybe a little longer, four weeks ago, where over 800 of them were were used and scrutinized. Less than four percent did what they thought it did. Wow. What? So you're like, what the hell are we doing? Yeah, what are we treating?

Yeah, you know what I mean? You're not treating anything. Like therapeutic masturbation, yeah. There's nothing.

Yeah. So at this point, you're like, okay, I think we should have a big conversation about this. Um and not to take away anybody's authority, not and not certainly not to take away their care. All of these are I absolutely believe that these folks are trying to take care of people, you know, and they do. Um, so but they're not affecting the things that they think they're affecting, um, if that makes any sense. So yeah. Yeah. So in a lot of most of the research says how to make change is through mechanical uh load exercise. Like literally, that's how to make change. So if that's what we're doing, then we should definitely have another conversation, you know. And so with the manual, I mean not manual therapies, um that's another topic. Uh, with the manipulations. So those those have been shown to not do what we thought they did. So you do these like segmental manipulations, you know, and 20 years ago they showed that uh that you're not doing what you think you're doing. You can't do that. So yeah. So we're at a place, um we're at a place where these worlds are coming together and they're gonna come together pretty quickly. And that's why you see like everybody kind of making a move for you know this ground. Yeah. So, but um we've we've thankfully like been ahead down this path for some years now. So, and I think it's why our outcomes are so good, is because we've actually demystified a lot of that stuff. And so when people come to see us, it's it's a much more simple approach. Uh and and they're coming to a gym. So we we've realized also that like you cognitively bias people um with language. So if if you're diagnosed, um it you are likely to adopt those symptoms. Absolutely. Yeah. So we've realized, right. So when people go to a gym, they're like, Oh, I've been sick. You're like, well, you're training now. So and and psychologically it's a big shift, right? Yeah. So I'm gonna get so many messages.

So are you are you educating people?

Uh how how so you're learning, what you're doing. Yes. We we actually internships or online, you know, what what what are you what are you doing to get this out?

We have developed a program. It's not wrapped up yet, um, but it's close. And um I've actually worked, I probably shouldn't use their names, but I've worked with a couple therapists. Um and uh they they think that yeah, we have definitely a good thing. Um I have one friend that's a therapist out of West Point that's doing research right now, and uh therapist friend, I think. And um we had a conversation the other night. He happened to be in town, and he was like, You're you guys are doing a really cool thing. And in the next few years, it'll probably be what it looks like, you know. So um, so we are developing our Program, he's eager for us to finish that up and uh get it rolling.

Um, what's what's that gonna look like? Is it gonna be like an online course? Is it gonna be an internship where people come work with you? What is it?

Most likely it'll be an online course. Um, yeah. Um, so there's a big shift in the therapy world where it's moving toward biopsychosocial. I don't know if you've ever heard that term, it's a little buzzy term in the therapy world. Um so we we're coming away from uh um the structural structuralist view of health and pain. Um and we're moving toward this biopsychosocial movement. Um that basically means that we're more complex than we realized. Like so, pain science has been one of the things we looked into a few years ago, and it's really the thing that is undoing so much because we realize very often people have pain with no explanation. So um it is the thing that's really kind of shaken things up, and we try to educate our folks on pain and give like give them insight. You know, we tell them, you know, when it's okay to go forward to be uncomfortable. Um so we are that biopsychosocial model that people are looking uh to create right now. We we just have been doing it for some years at this point. So and it's working. We we absolutely see it working in our community. You know, people, it's why we are busy helping people because uh folks tend to feel better when they come here. Yeah, yeah.

So it's a cool, exciting time. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like it. I mean, as you know, I'm not on the floor or in the trenches or whatever you want to say, you know, not anymore. Um, but I was for a decade and working with people. And you know, when I hear you speak and talk about this this transition, this shift, this change of trajectory, um I get excited. You know, I I it fills me with pride, right? Um, I am I'm not if I if I can do what Ryan's doing or even a fraction of it, and I can start helping people in this truly impactful way, right? Where I'm not just handcuffed to squats, press, pull, hinge. Right, right, right, right. Um, where you know my programming changes, the way I can, you know, and also removes fear. And it just, I guess what I'm getting at, yeah, it it would give me a lot of pride to be that type of health, wellness, fitness professional. Right. Right, right. You know, I'm I feel I deserve respect. You know, yeah, absolutely. That's a big thing. Why a lot of you know, the average personal trainer, I believe, you know, last time I checked lasts eight years. And that's that's a really I think the large majority of them fall out after three. Yeah. Right. Because well, they get into them and they're like, well, is this all I can do? And this is all I get paid. Well, this sucks, right? Yeah. I'm gonna go get my corporate job, right? Totally. No one respects me. I don't get paid. Uh, and that's you know, I'm I'm generalizing, but it's true, it's it's a large percentage of the population in the fitness industry, and I see like this type of thing, and yeah, it just I you know, it's a weird sensation. I'm I think I'm not the only one. If people are listening or fitness professional day, they're probably like, yeah, like I'm gonna stand a little taller, right? You know, I'm gonna be respect, I'm gonna demand a little bit more respect because I do really good work. And you know, we don't have to stand in the shadows of you know, the people like the medical profession or physical therapy who by all means have done the work, they've done the education. Yeah, but we do get poo-pooed on a little. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I've d been I was demeaned the other day. Uh I made a little comment, uh, which I make it a habit of nowadays to make little comments. Uh because I want to poke the bear and go, hey, let's have this big talk. I want to have the big talk. Uh yeah. So the other day I made a comment and the reply was, you should know your role in the continuum of care. Wow. What the hell does that mean?

Yeah. Yeah. So you sleep outside, dog. Yeah.

And I was like, all right, okay, I see, I see what you're saying. Yeah. So absolutely, we're we're thought of as, you know, the the bottom tier at best. Yeah. Um, yeah. And what the crazy thing is, so so somebody gets hurt, right? They or they have tendinitis. So they have tendinitis, and they're like, oh, I need to have to go to therapy to fix this. And they go to the therapy, and then they come back, and I'm like, so what did you guys do? And they're like, I lifted this thing like this. And oh, so you did an exercise for that muscle, yeah, and that was a load progression, which I am an expert in load progression. Like literally what trainers do, right? Is um so uh yeah, so when you realize, oh, that's the thing, that's the same thing that heals you, yeah, you you realize, oh, this is not any different. Um, it's mechanical load is the best thing to heal tissue. And if if you have non-traumatic musculoskeletal injury, um you were either underloaded or overloaded. And the thing that if you're underloaded, you load it. And you know, and if you're overloaded, back up a little bit, and then you prepare yourself a little better next time you go to do that event. So yeah, yeah. So it's when you start realizing like, hey, we have really over-medicalized this um and over-complicated it, then the specialness tends to float away all of a sudden. Um, you know, the the secret knowledge uh quickly dissolves. So, and I I think it's better that way. Because people, you know, when when there's this like uh air of secret knowledge around that profession, where like, oh yeah, I they said I don't breathe very well. Like, what the hell's breathing have to do with your knee? Like, um so uh when you take all that like air of you know mystique away, and you're like, oh no, actually, this is just it's just specific exercise, it's not complicated, yeah, then it's a new thing, and and we just happen to be embodying that new thing. So yeah, yeah.

Well you know from a from a global scale, uh there's this arrogance of humanity that we know more than millions of years of evolution, right? Like just an example. Yeah, we're not dogs, but my dog he hurts himself, he plays hard, he's an athletic dog, right? And you know, I don't take him to the vet that often, yet he's 10 years old, he moves great, right? He stretches a little bit five times a day. Yeah, his body seems to just bounce back and heal because he moves. Right. He moves, and it's just like, well, the most simple prescription for most people that will heal is like, well, just move. Move back. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But this arrogance of like what we've come through in the medical profession or whatever profession may be, that's and this is not all, right? This, you know, it's good doctors, good, bad doctors, whatever. There's there's just people. But that, you know, nope, stop everything, and we're gonna do this isolated movement, and maybe we'll avoid surgery, right? Right. We we've been evolved to to heal ourselves if yeah, if we live the way that we were supposed to live. Yeah. We don't.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's true. So the one of the dangers of this new model is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Um so uh we can definitely oversimplify. Um so as I'll I'll one of the girls that uh came to see me, the runner, she's young, she was 15. They wanted to do a psoas release on her. So um I think this will come back to your point. So they wanted to do a psoas release uh honor. Um 15 runner had been in enough pain that um that she hadn't been able to run for I think a little over a year. So her family came in. Um, she her mom started tearing up, uh, her dad was obviously distressed. The whole family was they tried to go on a hike the day before, um, and they realized, oh, this is gonna affect our entire family's, you know, future because they're an active family. So in her case, um, she had an antiverted hip, so um, which means her femoral neck angle a little different. So um it was one of those cases where you do have to realize, okay, knowing some of these specific things is necessary, but it was still, I honestly think if somebody had just loaded her carefully and said, Hey, does that hurt? Does this cause your symptoms to come up, even without knowing what I knew? Um, and they just slowly worked her toward it, um, she would have been fine. Um, so, but it was definitely because I knew how to look for those things, it was an advantage. I could get her out of it more quickly. And she'd been in therapy for a year. Um, so and I didn't hear from her for a while. Uh, and I thought, great, I don't know what happened with her. And so then I got this big old text message about how successful her cross cross-country season was. So uh so we get those messages often. Um, so coming back to your point is you could probably fix intuitively the fixing quotations, um most musculoskeletal conditions, um, just just with good intuition, you know, like, oh yeah, that hurts, so I'm not gonna do that for a little bit. So how we see what we do is we are merely coaching people through this process. Um, we give, I saw somebody yesterday who actually works in the fitness uh at a NAU, um, the local college for her shoulder. She had come out of therapy um and just wasn't back to 100%. She wasn't climbing, uh, she was still in pain. So how I told her the process worked is we we're gonna give you guidance through this process, but you're gonna do all the work, and in a few weeks you'll probably feel quite a bit better, you know. And that that's how we see our roles. We're just giving people guidance, we're not fixing anybody, we're not like we don't have any like mysterious insights. It's just we say that was too much, do a little less, that was not enough, do a little more. Like she was doing band exercises, and I was like, that ain't gonna go to it, girl. Um so uh she just needed more stimulus, basically. So more load.

Yeah. Do you think, I mean, I just I presume you do because you're you know building a course on it. So you think you can codify this? Do you think you can, or is it like, is it too intuitive for you? Is it just the way your brain works? Because that would be now if I'm listening, I'm just getting my my career started in the fitness profession. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna fly out to Flagstaff and you know, I'm gonna offer to mop Ryan's floors uh until I can learn as much as I can and then go off and do it on my own. That's literally what I would probably be doing. Uh yeah. But I'm past that, you know, now I'm just like I'm down on the trenches over it. But uh no, I'm not over it. I'm over gym ownership, let's put it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a whole nother topic. But yeah, um, you know, do you think you can codify this? I presume you do because you're you're doing a course.

Yeah. We my my friend Kyle, who's the PT at West Point, we were talking about this the other night. He said, you know, man, you you have this um instinct for this stuff.

Right.

And um it's true. I I actually do think that for whatever reason, maybe it's because I've you know been an athlete for so long, or uh for whatever reason, I do have an instinct for it. But I took probably four weeks of just like grinding um thoughts and trying to create a flow chart essentially that would teach people the thought process. Um I had another friend that wanted to do the same project with us um two years ago or so, uh, because she saw what we were doing and she was excited. She was like, we need to teach people how to do this. Um and that was that was what we struggled with uh a couple years ago, is how how do we teach people this process? And she lives out of town, so it was hard for us to actually um develop anything, even even with Google Docs and whatnot. So um but at this point I'm actually really happy with what I came up with. It's it's a really simple um version of like how I go through thoughts with people uh when I start working with them. So yeah, and even to the point where when I'm working with somebody that has non-specific low back pain, you know, like the process of that, you know, and what it looks like. And um uh it's funny because half the people we see uh are medical professionals. Uh and what I mean by we see, like they they're they're from the hospital, uh, which is hilarious because they get free physical therapy. Yeah. So why the hell are they coming to see us? You know what I mean? Um, so the other day I saw um a lady who's a nurse practitioner, and uh she came in and we were they we were talked for probably 15 minutes before we even started the session, and I paused for a second and I was like, uh they call this history in your profession. I call it just talking. Like so, and it's true, you know, when people come in, we don't we're not just taking a history with them, you know. We're like, so when did your symptoms start occurring? We're actually like talking to them. So uh it's a much more authentic version of the process, you know. Um, and she started she took it pretty well and started laughing. So uh so that's that that's the old school version of taking taking patient history.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think you know, everyone's looking for a new way, you know. If if you've been in in either system, whether it be medical health, fitness, um you know it's not. I mean, just look around. It's not it's not effectively working, whatever it is. And I think everyone's looking for a different, better way. People are looking for ways to revolutionize it. I mean, I knew I know in my gut after you know being a facility owner for a long time and working with people for so long, that I'm like, there's just a better way. And yeah, we just don't, we it's not, it's just not clear yet. And it sounds like you have a very clear vision, right? Of where it's what it can, what it can be. And that's cool. I think we need you need we need more people like you stepping up. And you know, we mentioned um four really, really smart, I mean, you, uh, Eric Goodman and Kelly Starrett and James Fitzgerald, like they're all they're all creating change, you know, yeah, through ultimately solid fundamentals. Yeah, totally. Right? Which is like, yeah, and good philosophy, right? Yeah, approach to people. And you know, you'll find that word authentic being thrown around for all the the brightest minds, right? That's a very powerful thing, is like you know, it's okay if you're just starting off as a fitness professional to to mimic, right? Because you're you're not you haven't got your own thing yet, right? Maybe you don't fully understand what you're doing. So you mimic. Like, okay, well, I saw the guy do this and it's a 90 degree, and I'm gonna be tested here. And you know, that's that's what I did. And then I started to understand it, and then I started to be more relaxed, and I started working with people and being my true self, and that's when things started to really go well. Um, totally. But uh yeah, I I so all right, man, where where do people stay on top of what you're doing? How do people do that?

Um, you can find us at uh at Paragon Athletics on Instagram. We put a ton of information up there. We share, and it's funny because I'm starting to see more and more of it kind of come back to us in other posts. Um uh and I share a little different content, sort of more high-minded stuff that's a lot of more context uh on Facebook um at Paragon Athletics. Um, and some of that stuff is kind of heady, and my wife's always telling me don't put that up, no one's interested, but I think people are interested. Yeah, that's what I think too. So uh yeah, and those are probably the best places to find us.

Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, thank you for everything that you're doing. Uh, it's really exciting. Um I'm excited. You know, I think it's time for a change. And you know, the fitness profession overall is hungry for change. Yeah, you know, absolutely. They really want to evolve and rise, and all these key terms that I keep seeing um with influencers in the industry is you know, rise is a very common word. Like let's rise, let's rise up and let's be something. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a big change coming, and it's gonna be good for everybody, I think.

So yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. Right on, man. Well, Ryan, thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we'll talk to you soon, man. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us, and when we put a lot of work into these episodes, uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh, if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric E R I C at Fitness MarketingAliance.com