(11) Erin Cafaro Mackenzie - The Fire of a Thousand Dragons

Hey fitness fans, we're back. This is Eric Malzone with the Future of Fitness Podcast and the Fitness Marketing Alliance, and this is episode number 11. And we are talking to Erin Kefaro McKenzie. And she is uh she's got her own Wikipedia page, so you can learn all about her. But get a quick synopsis is that she's a two-time gold medalist in 2008-2012 for the women's uh eight-person row. So uh she has a lot of medals, and if you go and just look her up and Google her, you'll see all of her accomplishments as an athlete, and it's tremendous. And going into this interview, I uh I didn't have a lot of expectations, but I came out of it with just an incredible amount of life lessons and insight. And the really, really cool thing about Erin, uh there's a lot of cool things about Erin, but that she uh she was extremely open to being vulnerable. I mean, she got into areas of you know her battles with uh you know, I guess the the post-athlete life where I mean you get gold, right? Where where do you go from there? What what's higher than that? And then what happens to an athlete after that point? And uh yeah, she's very raw, very honest with what's going on. She talks about um power speed endurance, which uh her husband, Brian McKenzie, is the founder of, uh, which formerly was CrossFit Endurance. And uh she's just really cool. She was really fun to talk to. And anytime I get to talk to athletes and investigate what makes them special at that level, uh it really it really makes my day. So uh really enjoy this. And of course, we're gonna talk about our sponsor, BusyBar. And you can find them at www.busybar.co. And they have uh all three of their flavors, right? Peanut butter being my favorite, followed by cookie dough and double chocolate chip. These only have one gram of sugar, only six net carbs, and nine grams of fiber, and it's the highest quality protein uh available with Grassfed Whey. So if you go to busybar.co, you can enter the code FMA10 Fitness Marketing Alliance10, and you get 10% off every product, every order from now until the end of time. So dig into this interview, it's a bit longer than usual, but you really will enjoy it. And uh yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Aaron Kafaro McKenzie. Everybody, this is Eric with the Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh I'm really excited to be chatting with Aaron McKenzie this morning. Thank you for coming on, Aaron. Um so I'm gonna give a quick synopsis, but I I think you're you're gonna tell your story much better. Uh you are a gold medalist um in 08 and and 2012 and the women's eight for rowing.

Yep.

Uh you are from Modesto, California.

Yep.

Which I know.

Good place to be from.

Yeah. Uh you went to Cal, Berkeley, is that correct?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Go bears.

Uh and you had a slight segue in Australia for a little while. Is that correct?

Oh, look at you. You really did do a good job.

Well, that was from the Antipatronics podcast. If you guys don't listen to that, you should. Um and then uh you were or currently are a coach at Powered Speed Endurance as well. And with you, and you work with your husband.

Correct. Yeah.

So my first question is um, and maybe I'm gonna put this isn't about me, but I'm gonna put this in a little bit context because um my background in athletics was aquatics. So I was a swimmer since the age of five and water pole player. And uh I thought I knew suffering through those two sports, and then I found CrossFit, and then I found the the rowing herb, right?

And uh there's nowhere to escape. There's no other, there's no other kettlebell pull-up exercise to escape. You just have to keep going, push it forward.

It's just you and suffering. And uh so my first question for you is what's wrong with you? How did you choose? How did you land in rowing? And uh how did you just basically, yeah, how do you excel in a sport that's that's it's just suffering?

Oh gosh. Um to be honest, I think I got I was drawn to it because of the simplic simplicity of it. I mean, obviously, when you break down any sport, it can get into such minute details, and it is quite a technical sport, um, especially on the water. Uh so you know, ergying has its own the erging is its own beast because that is just suffering, and and yes, there's technique um and you know ways to help accelerate and and use your body weight more, but when you add an element of water, as you know, as a as a swimmer and uh water polo player, there's you know, it's just a whole nother physics uh experiment. And so, you know, then there's blade placement, and then you also have to coordinate every movement with the person in front or behind you, because it will set off the boat. So it's like, how much can you suffer and then not you know want to uh punch the person in front or in back of you for setting off the boat, you know? Um, so it it it is a great human experiment. Um and you know what? I I think uh, you know, without going in too deep, and there's I've told the story of how uh I started rowing, you know, plenty of times. And it was it was just literally, you know, off of a a fluke of my I wanted to play basketball, I want to play a sport, but I really love basketball growing up. Um and I had a horrible junior season in high school, and um my dad just left a newspaper article on the kitchen counter about this girl of one of our uh rival basketball towns called Turlock. Um, she got a scholarship to the University of San Diego and was uh trying out for the 2004 Olympic team, and I was like, who is this girl? You know, if this girl from Turlock can do it, I can do it. So, I mean, I the more it's funny, you know, as as I age and the more I like understand my parents and how how, you know, what happened to me and where I came from. I was uh raised in a very competitive environment. Um, it was very supportive but competitive. It was like uh it there was never like no, you can't do that. It was like, well, she's doing it, you should do it and do it, do it better, you know, which has its positives and negatives to it, because it was never, you know, I was never really satisfied. But um yeah, that's how I got into rowing. Um I have a it's funny, like I think my athletic background is a little bit more colorful than most athletes. I actually grew up dancing, um, classical ballet from age two to 14, um, and then transitioned over to basketball, um, track and field, cross country, all that stuff. And and everybody, you know, I I just think that that's such a good story for non-specialization, um, because I really couldn't think of any better combination to make the perfect rower. You know, you get rhythm, you get endurance, um, you get agility with basketball. So um it just created almost the perfect storm to be uh a successful rower.

Yeah, it's you know, I think when if you watch any athlete at the top of their game in any in any sport, they make it look easy, right? And on a personal anecdote, one of our clients uh when I own my gym try to bring eight of us out to Lake Cachuma outside of Santa Barbara and put us on an eight-person boat and have us. It was I want to say it was funny, but it it wasn't because it was so hard. Yeah, I can laugh now, but at the point I was like, God, it you know, it you hit the right, you hit the paddle, you turn the paddle the wrong way. I'm sorry, I'm probably using the wrong nomenclature.

Oh, sorry, it's all good.

And then everything gets skewed. I think I got I was this close to being thrown out of the boat because I hit the the paddle wrong. Yeah, what I'm point is it's very difficult, but you guys make it look very easy. And uh it's interesting too because ballet having a ballet background, I've always seen as I coach athletes is that people with backgrounds in like dance or ballet or gymnastics tend to adapt faster than anybody else. Just because if I say, hey, you know, put your left hand up here, you do it. Other people will be like out this way, right?

Yeah, just self-awareness.

Yeah. So it's really interesting. And uh I think what I find interesting too about what you do, because you and we'll get into this, but you do the the actually explain your event, the event that you did. Explain what that was.

Yeah, so I and both Olympics, um, it's kind of funny. Rowan only comes on the radar every four years. Um, but every other year, so the three years in between, there's a world championships. Actually, there is a world championships in the Olympics year, too, but that's for like the non-Olympics. Um, but so in the off years, I pretty much specialized in the small boats, which was just two people. And it's um just imagine spending more hours than you do with your significant other in a small vessel in the middle of the water. And the only way to get back to shore is by uh getting along and like, you know, basically communicating um with the other person. And that that I I just love the challenge of that because um in my in my young age, I I was uh I'm was a little bit of a fireball in a spitball, and it was like at any cost, I was gonna win, I was gonna win every single stroke, every race, every everything. And um, you know, I would just get that person to come along, and and sometimes it it would work out really well because that person just needed that energy, and then sometimes it would just clash. Um, but regardless, it taught me so much about human dynamics and communication, and that you can't just uh be concerned with your own agenda. And to be honest, you know, I was I was a bit undersized, even though I had um, you know, the fire of uh a thousand dragons, um, I definitely um was not the strongest or the fastest rower. Um, and so once I figured out that I was not the most important per part or person in the boat, um, that's when I actually started really going fast. When I started paying attention to the other person in the boat, and like, how can I make them go faster than they've ever gone? And that was um, you know, that was something that one of their assistant coaches, Laurel um Korholz, told me. And she was just, you know, she had just come off, she was a three-time Olympian, and I was like, and she was actually one of the really fast, talented rowers, but she was like, you know, there's this girl I rode with, and she literally nobody could beat her because every time she got in the boat with someone else, she would make them faster than they were before. And I was like, well, that's pretty awesome, and that seems pretty easy, you know, like especially in this sport of suffering where like so you get so all consumed with your own suffering that you forget about somebody else. And so uh once, yeah, once you kind of flip that paradigm and like, hey, like how can I actually make this person um you know better or or work on them versus just work on myself, um, things just started clicking and um yeah, it kind of took off from there. And the priority boat was actually the woman's eight for both of our years in in 2008 and 2012 Olympics. And so the the coach would stack the boat was what you call it, and just with all all the talent, and um yeah, you know, the the boat has been actually undefeated for 10 years. Um, the world championships right now in in Sarasota, Florida, which is like the first time um there's been a a you know rowing race in the US since Atlanta um 96 Olympics, but it's not looking so good for the girls. So that I mean, knock on wood. I hope they don't. I mean, actually, you know what, it might be exactly what they need um to lose, but that it's yeah, been over a decade of undefeated um for the US woman in the in the big ol' eight.

That's awesome, that's tremendous. I and there is some there's some really valuable life and business lessons in some of the stuff you just said there. Uh coming from the place of like, you know what, I'm gonna make everyone on my team better, versus like I need to be the star, right? Uh question for you, when when they're stacking these teams and they're putting um you know very talented people, how much does the team like if you uh you know you look at basketball as a sport, right? Obviously you know it really well. Sometimes what was it, the Lakers? What year did they stack it with like Carl Malone? Right. It turned into a mess, right? So just how big, you know, how big is chemistry within rowing among teammates versus just putting the most talent as possible on the boat?

Yeah, it totally is. And and the hard part especially about selecting um an eight or even a basketball team is there is a lot of uh a lot of choice left up to the coach, right? Because it's you can you can do um selection based off of erg tests. That's why you know it's really important. I I just say that's how you get your foot in the door, is just get a good erg test, you'll get your foot in the door and the coach will see you, but that's not gonna make the boat. And I think that is really hard to swallow for some people. They're like, hey, this person, you know, is like the fastest person on the team. Well, if they don't meld well with the rest of the team, um, then what use are they? You know, like it is it's just you can be the smartest, the fastest, the strongest person in the room. But I mean, unless you're in a single or you are doing an individual sport, even then, like every individual sport is still a team sport because you have this whole network you rely on, right? So even if you are the talent, um, it there you have to have chemistry and you have to uh you know make sure that you're getting the most out of your coach or you're getting the most out of um you know your significant other with the support. It's I think that was such a good life lesson, especially younger. You know, I I just it's it's such a weird dynamic um being a professional amateur athlete. But when you tell someone you're training for the Olympics, literally people will give you shit for free and do all this like super gracious stuff, and and then and you know, my parents would literally not tell me, you know, my stuff like when uh relatives passed away or you know, stuff like that, because they just want to protect you, they want you to do your best. But I think um I finally, you know, in my last, I would say it was actually my last year, I finally realized that like, hey, it's not just about the Aaron show, you know, it's like this is everybody else's dream too. It's not just mine. Like it actually turned into more of something, especially when I met Brian, like my husband now, and he was just like, he would give his every waking second to like what can I do? Like, I'm gonna he cooked me meals, he uh did the laundry and pulled my sports bras, he will tell you that 10 times over. Um but you know, and it really isn't just about your own dream, and and it's not you're never on your own team.

Yeah, it's interesting. And there's um God, there's a book I read a while ago, and it it you know was talking about relationships, and if you just focus on making the other person in the relationship happy, you tend to be happy too. Right? That's your focus, and both people are focused on it. If only one person's focused on it, then it gets it gets a little uh tricky, but that's a really interesting point. So I'm I'm curious too, because you know, as an athlete, tell us about the human experience of a race, like especially at something at that level. Like, you know, what are what the what's the day before like, what are the moments before, what's going on in your head? Um and for those of you who who I don't know what an erg is, we're talking about a C2 rower machine. And the distance, it's 2,000 meters, right?

Correct, yep.

Yeah. Um, I used to joke that everyone only has a certain amount of 2K rows in them before they literally just fall over and die.

Right.

Because it's just like that might be true. It's this ah god, you go to place if you haven't tried it, try it.

Yeah, try it, give it your all-out effort for the ultimate question that uh I I don't have any kids, but that everybody always asks is like, what's more painful, childbirth or 2K? And everybody says a 2K.

Yeah, well, obviously I don't know one, but I would say that I've I've had some dark times on the rower, and it's usually involved the 2K. Yeah. So anyway, back to the point. Um tell us about like, you know, when you when you're prepping with your team for it, you got something big coming up. What's that human experience? What does it feel like, especially being on the boat, um, the preparation, the thought, the afterwards, everything. Like, walk us through that that whole experience. And I can see you're probably adrenaline starting to spike a little bit just from thinking about it, right?

Yeah, I I mean I'm trying to like dig into where I got this from, but I've always loved competition. Like I've always loved, well, I kind of touched on it with my parents, I guess. Yeah, but um, I've always I haven't had that like uh anxiety stiffening feeling before race. You know, I was always like, yes, I get to like go race. Um, and don't get me wrong, like I still had butterflies, would have those doubts of like, oh, I just you know, I don't know if I can win or I can, you know, do well. Um, those would still come in, but I actually learned to use those thoughts as a sign that I was ready to race. If I did not have that pre that adrenaline in those butterflies, there was actually a couple races where I had like I was so mellow before sitting at the starting line that I just got dropped, you know? And so it's it's something we we try to just mellow ourselves out, not make the highs too high or lows too low. But I think if we can learn to, I mean, this is gonna sound super cheesy, but like ride the waves of them, you know, and and learn how to like be in those moments of like highs and lows, then you can actually use them to your advantage. Um, so preparing for a race, yeah, it's always I I I guess I would liken it to being super prepared for a test that you, you know, you just been, you're studying one subject, you know, for four years. And you're just like, I am so ready to take this freaking test, um, that you just want to like you you can just like chew on it, you know, versus like just showing up to test and you're like, I don't know if I'm ready. I've never really had that feeling of I don't know if I'm ready for this. So uh especially, you know, at the at the 2008 Olympics, I was my I was only on the team for two years at that time. So I was still a little bit of a young buck, but I just remember being so excited to race and to be there. And um, I literally, you know, still in the warm-up, um, thought I was gonna shit my pants. Um, but you know, I that was like, okay, like I'm ready to go. Um, and wanted, I almost wanted that energy to build up and like I don't know, I always feel it kind of like in my belly, like down low. Um, and so I wanted that energy to just kind of like be there. It was almost like a ball of fire that like I could just kind of hold on and like let build up, and then when it was time to go, I could just open it up and and let it go. Um, so I don't know, I'm going off on tangents, but the imagery is really cool.

I mean, it really is. Like that that fireball, I can see I can I can start to feel it in the way you you you talk about it. And um, you know, curious because you say some when you time when there's times when you weren't in that optimal state, like you you've you've learned from experience what that optimal state is before a race. Is there anything that anything you could do or any tricks you had that, you know, if you just felt like, you know, I'm a little too calm, or you know, I'm I'm I'm I don't have that those butterflies that I need to to perform options. Is there any way that you got yourself ready? Is there any like things you did to to prep yourself within a 10 minute span? I'm be like, I'm not ready. Okay, now I'm ready. Any breathing Yeah, actually, I mean

Ironically, because my husband's gotten so into the breathing path, which is just so funny because, like, you uh I mean, everybody can probably recall uh subconsciously of times when breathing has really affected their state, right? Um, and he's just gotten into, you know, deep down the rabbit hole of how to actually use your breathing to be get yourself in the state that you want to be in. And as you asked that question, that was one of the things I did at the starting line. And everybody who I competed against uh would definitely know when I was on the starting line. Um, because we would get there, you get there about five minutes early. Um but uh sitting there at the starting line, you're just kind of like there with your thoughts and your adrenaline. And I would do these like huffing breaths, which was almost like now that I know it's it was scrubbing off CO2, and it would also increase my adrenaline. Um, so if I was there and I didn't really feel anything, I would just do these like like really hard out breaths. And then would do that, it would almost like clear my throat because you don't want any of that like shit dangling down in your throat when you're breathing hard either.

So um you literally throw up, right?

Um yeah, I didn't really have that much of a gap. I don't think I ever threw up. Yeah, there was definitely plenty of people who who had that uh lactic lactic reaction. Um so but I I yeah, I uh would do those hard uh exhale breaths. And um you know, I I don't even know if Brian and I have talked about it, but like it just makes sense. That that actually is similar to um this guy who is who is his mentor for a bit, Wim Hof. Like he has the that's his method of like blowing off CO2 these, but it's it's more of an even breath, like uh and I actually had a quite an adverse reaction to that. Um I did his 10-week program and um not being able to immediately use that adrenaline or be able to go uh train or get ready for a race. And I think also for me, um I I needed I couldn't summon the demons every day. And that was the 10-mete program, right? You had to like do this deep, hard breathing every day, and I think it it actually just kind of threw me off my kilter. Um, and that was another reason that like sent Brian down the rabbit hole of like, hey, like not all of these breaths are are working the same on everybody. So let's kind of take inventory of their emotional state. And we have this with on on power speed endurance, it's an emotional reactivity test, so we can actually see what your what your state is right now, like what your general state is right now, and then with your CO2 tolerance or your carbon dioxide uh tolerance, then you can get you know uh numbers that help you that are feasible for you basically to to inhale and hold and exhale. So it's taking what um, you know, people like Wim, who is, you know, he's such he's such a great human, um, and all these yogis that have been doing it for thousands of years, um, you know, even if you've gone to a yoga class, I'm sure they've told you to concentrate on your breath. It's taking what they've done and and almost personalizing it a little bit more um to help you get in the state that you want versus a one-size-fits-all model.

That's really interesting. And uh I do enjoy a good talk about energy systems, so I want to talk about the 2K row for a second, and then I won't I want to come back to that. So a 2K row, and correct me if I'm wrong because you're the expert here, you essentially to get out ahead of the pack in the first section, you gotta go anaerobic, it's a sprint, right? Then you settle into this kind of high aerobic state until the very end where you just drop the hammer towards the finish line. Does that sound about is that a general generally correct?

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, uh you probably know more about energy systems than I do, but I don't think there's anything aerobic at that point. Um, because you're you know, I I never actually wore a heart rate monitor, um, and I know those are two different things, but still I I was pretty much pegged above like within 10% of my max for the the whole race.

Okay.

So Oh, go ahead.

Oh, go ahead.

No, no, as far as I understand, aerobic, you you have to be somewhat oxidative. Um, and I don't think you you are very much.

Yeah, it's uh well, you know, there all the pathways are being used at once, but I guess the point of the question was, you know, to do something like that, where you know, there's there's so much CO2 that needs to be shuttled and there's so much lactate that needs to be shuttled too, right? What's the difference about what do you know anything about your physiology that makes you special in that area? Anything that may have been either earned or gifted to just due to genetics?

Um yeah, I mean, the only thing I can think of is um we would do you know VO2 max testing. It's such an exciting number, you know, it's something put on your shoulder. And my VO2 max is kind of it's mediocre, right? Um, but we had this cool uh physiologist that would come around, and he actually just passed away a few years ago, but he was he did the US um team's VO2 maxes forever, and he was like, You have an extremely high uh ability to buffer off CO2 or like you're able to expel waste more than I've ever seen. And so I was like, all right, like I didn't even think of it at the time. But um again, I guess we can go full circle now that Brian's you know been into the the breathing and the mechanics and the biology of it. Um the reason we breathe is not to get oxygen, it's actually to get rid of CO2. So I think we've been kind of chasing after this sexy BO2 number for so long when in fact the reason we work out and the reason it feels so good is being able to get rid of that waste.

That's really interesting. And uh yeah, I totally agree with that. With now you got into CrossFit for a while too. That was part of your training, right?

Yeah.

Your face just lit up. Um, you know, we've we've struggled with uh in CrossFit just due to the sport, like, and I'm shocked actually you didn't do more heart rate work during rowing um during your rowing career, but we've always yeah, heart rate. Did you do a lot of heart rate work? Oh yeah, okay. I thought you said you did it. Yeah. Okay.

No, no, just on the tests, I didn't.

Okay.

I yeah, for the most part, like unless it was a VO2 like monitoring test. Um, yeah, we I would just we would take the strap off, but we did a significant amount of like, you know, all we called it steady state. But that um yeah, you have to be under a certain amount uh a certain number training.

And that's that's such a useful tool as a coach, right? And one of the things we've looked at from across the role is trying to learn new things and we're like, well, what is that metric that we can track? But it doesn't work, we can't do heart rate, right? Because you know, if you're doing a let's say a workout that is uh burpees, thrusters, and rowing, it probably just may be a little nauseous, right? Um you know, look at like the difference. Like on the rower, you can see you can get into a steady state, and then you get a burpees or heart rate spikes, right? And then you get into the thrusters, then you probably stop breathing a little bit. So then all these things happen. Like we can't use we can't use heart rate, right? We can't use that. VO2 max really doesn't tell us anything in the in the sport of fitness. And then but the only thing really can look at is maybe someone's lactate threshold, which is I know a number that and that's actually another to pull out CO2. So I'm always curious, like you know, knowing what you know about uh this fast world of rowing, where what would you, if you're coaching someone in the sport of fitness, what what metrics would you use other than their frantime and other things like that?

Um I actually we we do something called the metabolic test. That's actually, I just wish I had come across it. We did something similar because we had we did lactate testing, blood lactate testing too. But on this metabolic test, it is uh heart rate test. And Brian's been doing it with a bunch of CrossFit athletes for a long time, and it does measure measure that lactate, but it also gives you kind of the area, it it it you know, do you just set it on a graph? It's a step test. Um, and it's like, hey, where are you over where is your heart rate overworking? Um, and how do you make those transitions from do you even have an aerobic? And that's pretty much what he's found with the with the CrossFit world is like they don't have because it's always spike up down, and that's it, that is a great way to train um you know that energy system that totally neglected the aerobic system, that base aerobic system. Um, and so for the most part, like it's a lot of just can you doing work where you can only nasal breathe, like nasal in, nasal out, and that will you know help suppress and also build up your respiratory system too. Um but I I would say that metabolic test also in power speed endurance. I mean, sounds kind of salesy, but I I obviously we would only have it on there if uh believed in it. Um, but it it measures you know where are your metabolic holes. And for the most part, what we've seen in CrossFit is like, you know, shit, maybe they should be wearing a heart rate monitor and or nasal breathing only, and doing a wad, not all out, like doing doing their exercise um in a certain zone, right? And that was actually, I think, what made what I learned and I I love so much about heart rate training. And granted, it is easy because you could always just check it, you're just in one modality going back and forth, scooting on your butt. But I would play this little game of how low can I get my heart rate and how high can I get my output? And I think that's something that for the most part in CrossFit, not many people are doing is they're like, How high can I get my output at any cost, right? So that I guess that's efficiency. You're creating a huge engine, but is it efficient?

Well, I don't want to talk too much about CrossFit because I could talk about it forever, but you look at the best, right? You look at the very best at the top of CrossFit, and they do they make I was joking about they make weightlifting aerobic, right? If you watch Rich Froning do thrusters, every rep is the same, breathing is on point, and it's just this beautiful synchronicity of efficiency, right? And in some ways, like the best of the best are actually doing what you're talking about, but I don't know if anyone's recognized it yet.

Yeah, and I I think they attribute that to volume, which I do think, you know, time hold on one second, the dogs get an after. He's ready for breakfast. Um, but uh I think volume, um, and that's something that I think Brian got hammered on and and maybe you know misspoke in the beginning. That uh we were a volume-based program for um for training for the the Olympics, but I you know that's not the only way to build doing doing more isn't isn't that's not that simple. You have in order to do more, you also have to do this low rate, I mean, very unsexy, just 40 minutes at a time. Can we build up this aerobic base? Um, the other piece that I think um I see and and someone like Rich, like I've been fortunate enough to train and be around him, and uh other very talented, um, I I don't like the word talent, um, but you know, very successful CrossFitters. Um I gotta ask that. Uh because it it implies that that they were born with it and that they didn't, you know, work for it. But um yeah, so I what I see is that they, yeah, again, they they are very cognizant of their zones, like where's the red line, um, and not to, you know, always push that. But they've also found when to, with that, I guess, they've also found when to relax. Um, and that's what at the highest level of any movement, it's not just about output, it's about relaxation. So even in this in the rowing stroke, I'm like as much suffering as there is, like, shit, there's rest built in. Like you get a recovery, like this is great, you know, and you can see that with someone like Rich doing thrusters, he finds where to rest in every movement. And I think that for me, what I I found it because I I have this background in dancing and rhythm, but there is if you can find the energy of the rhythm versus just go, go, go, there is ebb and flow that you can work with, and you can also increase that rate of the rhythm. But if you go outside of that, or if it's erratic, that's when you're expending a lot of energy.

So let's talk about let's shift a little bit. Talk about uh power speed endurance. What is it? What is that? What are you guys doing?

Yeah, so power speed endurance kind of stemmed off of the idea of uh CrossFit endurance, which um my husband Brian, I when was it? I think it was 2008, um, started touring around to different CrossFits and teaching um philosophy on this skill intensity then volume model, um, and and predominantly with running. I mean, running is you know probably the most popular sport in the world, probably because it's the easiest. You don't really need any equipment. Um, you don't even need shoes for practically, but um so it it really changed a lot of people's, like you're you know, I we were talking about before, it changed a lot of people's um idea uh and love for for the sport that you know you you think that just because you have two legs and you learn to walk, that you know how to run. Um, and you do until you don't, right? Until you unlearn how to run. And again, I think we just start to ignore the laws of gravity and rhythm and just try to go so hard versus how can we work efficiently and work with um what we have. And so with that, um, you know, what was it? It was like a couple years ago, uh the seminar business um within CrossFit, it just it just kind of started dwindling. I think, I think personally, um, because I was actually torn around for concept two doing CrossFit rowing, um, and I saw the same thing. Like there just weren't as many interested coaches. Um, I think the coaches were maybe saturated, but also athletes um in learning, um, learning the movement. Everybody it kind of shifted with the increase of the games, and everybody just wanted to do these hard, crazy workouts, you know, and and lift heavy weights, which is awesome. Like, and and it who's to say that's not wrong at all, but like they just didn't want to learn the other aspects of movement or another uh viewpoint of it, I guess, uh, or just become, you know, masters of of multiple different domains. And so I shifted um my husband and Brian and I decided to shift CrossFit endurance over to power speed endurance and open up the uh not become a seminar model anymore, but uh basically open up the education and programming for all sports. Um and and you know, we're starting out with just endurance sports. We've actually added on tactical, which is an endurance sport, but um definitely a little bit.

Daryl Wang is working on that. Yeah, yeah.

Daryl, uh yeah, our buddy Daryl is on there. Obviously, he has the street cred for that. Um, but it's just applying a functional movement, um, you know, CrossFit, like functional movement. Um, the idea with CrossFit is it's constantly varied. Um, and we still hold that with power speed endurance, but it the sport when you know what to expect, um, not so much tactical, but you know what to expect in a running race or a 10K race, you know what to expect in a 2K race, you know the movement, so it doesn't have to be as varied, it can be somewhat more specialized, and especially the training. So we do with Power Student Endurance, we still hold some educational seminars and we're we're working on the um online courses for education as well, but there is a daily programming for um you know, if you really want to learn about the sport and you really want to get deep into it, um, there's three days of the sport programming. So we hit short distance, middle distance, and then stamina long distance. Um, and then there's also three days of strength and conditioning that is specialized to that sport. So, say, you know, a rower really needs to work on posterior development, you're always in that flex position, right? And so we need to work on getting those hips working and getting into somewhat of an extended position as well, and make sure you're uh working both both ends of the system. So uh it's just little things like that, and so it it was something that you know the idea definitely came from our roots in CrossFit. Um, but it it just has such a universal um application to all these different sports. And I don't know, I I guess it's part of my personality because I uh picked a sport where you're doing the same darn thing over and over again. So I I like to concentrate and almost be an essentialist, right? Like I like to concentrate on one movement and and get good at that, and that's what power speed endurance uh provides is something that like, hey, I I actually want to become a student of this sport.

Yeah, there's a lot too, and I'm I'm gonna say I'm a I'm a glowing endorsement, although I've never really said it publicly of the CrossFit Endurance and Power, what is now power speed endurance, because I I hated running, Aaron. I hated it. I hated it, hated it, hated it, and then because I would always I would get shin splints, I would always cramp, I would always get all these problems eventually. Um I had to get orthotics in my shoes, right? So that was a $500 waste of money.

Yep.

And then I went and I started investigating stuff and I started doing a little bit of crossfit endurance from workouts, started posting, and then I took the seminar, and it was my first time going through that method of learning how to run correctly. And I was like, wow, this is actually not easy. It's not easy, it's easier, but it's a lot less painful, and it was quite enjoyable. And I got into I went through a good, you know, two year, two to three year point of my life where I just started running, started doing races, and uh, I just added this whole as a coach, I added this whole other this major toolkit to what I already had and this understanding and something that a perspective that I think you know if if fitness professionals are listening right now, you you can't just sit in your silo, right? You can't just sit there and and you know you can. I mean, you can be excellent at kettlebells, right? You could be the best. You could be the best Olympic lifting coach, you could be in all these things, but I I think in general, you or uh in somewhat the the greatest trainers have a specialty, but they're also overall generalists, you know, when you look at it. I think what you guys offer and and just more endorsement of it was I learned the most about coaching through that certification. I did a lot. Um, you know, up until I would say the full the full education I did with OPEX, because that was much more than a weekend. But you know, as far as the weekend or the the two or three day seminars, I just learned more about programming, more about coaching, more about this whole other world of endurance that's been around forever. So um anyway, I'm I'm uh the point I'm trying to make is it's it's worth your time as a coach to go check it out. And uh I think you you know, Brian's in some really cool stuff, and I know um, you know, obviously your background speaks for itself. I I do have a question about from you personally is you have all this competitive um energy and you have this expertise, expertise. How are you uh you utilizing that now in your life in your I guess can we call it your second life as a rower and and a wife and and how are you how what are you doing with that? Because that's a lot.

That's a lot of creative energy that's a heavy that's a heavy question.

Um I had a feeling.

Yeah um yeah so I you know as I I've just been in this physical world for so long and um I've I actually talked about it with I've been you know have this connection with the uh military and um veteran community and I couldn't even I'm that was one of the tours I went on over to Afghanistan after uh 2012 and went on a goodwill tour and it was one of the most eye-opening experiences of course so you're you know in this like forbidden land but even more so I just felt this connection to these um you know men and women in service and I you know the ones that it just reminded me so much of athletes in that they're here they're here for a cause and they're ready and willing to give anything and everything for that cause um and then now with this transition of retiring like seeing the very similarities of uh you know the the veterans and then uh you know retiring athletes and what what you know after you you don't have this cause anymore what happens um and and the this these you know we're also good especially athletes we're also good at dealing with physical pain but I guess you know somewhat mental pain obviously it's all connected to the nervous system but when it comes to pain that you aren't deciding to put yourself in um you know like you're saying even with running like shin splints like I didn't decide to have shin splints like that sucks that hurts um but who's to say that's not that pain is not any worse than something you put yourself through Fran, right? But you decided to put yourself through Fran. Yeah so this is kind of the where I've I've I don't know I probably have had way too much time to think um out here I we moved up to Oregon and it's just like we're out here in nature there's not distractions and I've just tried to really understand what is this this transition of like the decision of pain like you know I I don't think we're scared of pain. I think what we're scared of is pain that we don't have control of um or don't understand. If and so that's where I'm kind of uh I guess put my I don't know if I would want to say competitiveness um but uh my fireball um I I've started putting it there and then I'm working on um potentially going back to school and and just I don't know if I want you know the whole PhD ego trip behind my name but if that will help me learn and understand more then then fucking great like let's do it. And right now that's that's where I find people that I can have these conversations with. So that hopefully the idea is not to get so lost in this academic world that speaks above you know and does all these experiments that nobody talk you know understands or um can talk about but to bring it back to this physical world of like hey why why can we deal with physical pain so well but mental pain or pain that you can't that you you decide that you you haven't you know that you haven't decided to put yourself in why can't we deal with that? It's just fascinating to me. So that's kind of where I'm at I don't know if I skated the question for you.

No that's a that's a cool rabbit hole. I mean it's got some of the stuff you sit in there is just gold nuggets and it it's so true like you know as athletes you can control the pain. You know the pain that you want and that you're you're searching for but when life throws shit at you you know emotionally or other forms of physical that you can't that you didn't expect or the pain that you don't know it's shocking. And that's what creates fear and that's what creates um people not pursuing things that they want to do or dreams or things like that.

Like their fear of pain is so high. Like they don't because they've never played with it right and they don't understand it. And it's almost like involuntary so that's why it's almost you have to ease them into it you know there's uh but yeah I think that's that's something that's just so applicable. It some people have you know whether they're blessed or cursed with a with a hard um upbringing they can probably deal with mental pain better than a lot of other people or if you've been doing sports your whole life like shit you can deal with physical pain you know your limits you know you know um but I think it's it's all has to do with are you open to being curious about that pain? Are you open to to just letting it be versus having to know why? Like I and and I think that might be confusing and like curious like of course I I want to know why I'm in pain but I mean um the question I always used to ask myself in in 2K's or even in any in any um growing weight race was is this the worst it's ever hurt and can I make it hurt more? Which is sounds sick and sadistic but it was always you know and the other question is am I hurting more than the person next to me? And so it was always questions like this not like why why why does it hurt here like oh like how can I get out of this pain it was almost like is this really hurt? Like is this really the worst it could be you know um and I think you know it's so easy for me to talk about that physically because it I just it was such a I had gone through so many repetitions of it and successful repetitions of like hey like you're you're breathing hard you can't you know there's not enough oxygen in the world but you're okay like have you you know can you can you breathe even harder? You know um can you make it hurt even more in that right knee and again you I think that there is there's a blessing and a curse to that um because I've also searched for pain because that's where it makes me feel comfortable or may maybe alive um but again I think I'm going down too far of a rabbit no not at all not for me I mean I could talk about this for hours.

I have one I have one more question for you. And this is so you you reached a pinnacle right you got the gold medal twice. How to make sure yeah the first one was real um so you how do you so how do you take these expectations now which were so high right and maybe expectations that other people have of you in this next section of your life or you have of yourself to reach the pinnacle of whatever it is. How do you how are you handling that? How do you incorporate that are you even aware of that?

Or is that something that I'm just making up in your head um no yeah it's that's been a big uh a big demon I've had to kind of slay um I got so good at doing what other people would tell me to do or wanted me to do um that I forgot to listen to to myself or or even learn how I it's been a process of basically the answer is move out to Oregon in the middle of nowhere and then you'll figure it out. Well I'm in Oregon but yeah I I mean I've done I've done a shit ton of work you know on myself and I actually you know I is I have been um I guess ever since before high school I've been on anti I was on antidepressants and and I just have that that emotional reactivity just base layer of me of of just getting being really hard on myself and not meeting other people's expectations and um you know I was diagnosed and gave a drug to fix all the problems and sure enough um when I retired uh that didn't you know I I still had the problems and when I went off the drugs or when I was still on the drugs it was I saw the problem so I was like what what's the deal like what are the what is this actually doing um for me if I if I you know it's it's more it's more than something Western science or an additive chemical can do for me. So I yeah I I just basically decided to go cold turkey which I would not recommend for anyone to go off of um you know any antidepressant or anxiety medicine um without proper help but like I think it was honestly it was the hardest because again that that was mental pain that I just could not control and I didn't understand and I didn't know why. But I think that that has uh been the best thing that I've ever done because it helped me give myself time to realize that like just come down off of it and realize that I don't have to compete with everybody that I can have fun with it. Like that's that's the kind of bummer thing that I don't think everybody but a lot of people who are competitive athletes no longer really like my fun was winning um not playing anymore. Like I just wanted to win that was fun and I wanted to win again but this I I I just felt like I couldn't be satiated by anybody because I couldn't I didn't know how to listen to myself um I was always looking for outside approval yes you're doing the stroke right good job you won the race you know here's here's a piece of jewelry or uh and I didn't the the saddest part which I don't really tell too many people but like I was actually kind of sad on the medals podium. Everybody's like how does it feel listening to the uh national anthem when it was you know playing and you won and it was that was not my favorite moment for sure because I was like I literally had these like big white eyes and I remember remember watching I had to watch a freaking metal ceremony couple times for you know some events that I did and I was like oh my gosh I'm just so uncomfortable because I did not know what to do next like was somebody gonna tell me like it like what do I race again? Like I don't really want to race again but like what's next and it really has taken me shit it's almost it's five years to be like I don't need someone to tell me what to do like I need to figure out how to listen to myself and what I you know what what do I want to figure out in this time I have in this body on this earth you know uh and that's a heavy question that I was just not ready to answer or explore or anything when I was competing. I just like I just want to run a race you know that's it. But then once you get to the end of the rainbow and get that pot of gold it's like fuck now what?

You know right that's um well I I have a gut feeling that when you scratch your itch right for this this particular issue that you're gonna help a lot of people because I don't think you're the only athlete that's gone through I mean everyone's everyone's different I'm I'm not saying like you know the the challenges that you're facing now um I think you seem like the person to me who is going to especially with your new venture and the education piece and and everything that you're up to now I have a feeling you're gonna help a lot of people.

No and just through talking and just honestly through your through your how raw you are in this in this interview and how you know not scared to be vulnerable I think those are incredibly um you know endearing qualities that will make you um someone that people will come to and um the USOC hasn't asked me to talk because of my honesty but uh that's okay well there'll be all that love no we want the little boys and girls and boys to like win more medals I'm like is that it like you know yeah but you know I I I think that that might be part of the empowering decision is that you know the pain that you're gonna put yourself in. And you know like we're talking about before like I didn't know this was going to be the end result. Like would I do it again knowing yes a hundred percent would I go through all this pain that I you know in in suckiness of you know post post athleteness or whatever you call it retirement um yeah I would because I've learned you know I've learned a lot like learning from your injuries um but uh yeah I I think maybe it would help athletes going in um to it to understand that it's winning gold medal or uh you know earning a million dollars or whatever your goal is is not gonna solve all your problems. It just it just isn't like you just gotta like be happy with what you're doing and and understand that it's all it is going to be painful but to be curious about it and to it it you know sounds sadistic but almost enjoy the pain. See if you can push that threshold a little bit higher.

Yeah and it's totally honest which I think you know you god you could uh I feel like I could grab my golf club and hit a nine iron and hit an inspirational speaker in any direction right there's just there seem to be inspirational speakers tend to be everywhere right and I to me I draw inspiration for people who are like no this shit's real this is the challenge is what you can expect but I wouldn't change anything right and I think that's um I don't know I it's incredibly powerful to me and um Aaron where where do people find you if they want to if they want to look you up and they want to do some more information maybe they want to talk to you or maybe there's an athlete who's in the middle of nowhere Oregon yeah I've done a good job of um kind of being off the grid.

I I'll I'll come up for air every now and then on on the social medias but I'm actually I still haven't quite figured out how to use that um to help people versus just put more noise out into the universe yet. So um but you can find I will respond. I do um uh yeah I do check it every now and then but you can definitely find me on PowerSpeed Endurance um and yeah just reach out. I mean if you're uh I I am totally open to talking to whoever because I I'm just fascinated you know not only by my own experience but again by like other people's and uh it we all find solace. I guess that's why podcasts and and all these human conversations do so well because everybody just wants to make sure that they're like oh I'm not alone you know um so if I could be a reassuring voice for someone then awesome.

Awesome. And if you guys um so her her name is Aaron McKenzie her um maiden name is uh Kafaro all the medals are under Kafaro but we gotta get uh new I I know I I ate up probably more than the hour than you gave me so I I really appreciate Aaron um and uh just keep keep being you're doing great and uh yeah power speed endurance the other thing that I think coaches go check out I highly recommend that and Aaron thank you so much I have a feeling we'll be talking to yeah awesome thank you appreciate it thank you for listening to this episode of the Future of Fitness podcast and webinar series uh we're working really hard here to keep great content coming out and we'd like to express our gratitude by offering you a free seven day marketing crash course so you're saying you can claim it if you go to fitnessmarketingalliance.com forward slash free gift f R E E G I F T and you enter the promo code FitMARK F I T M A R K, you can claim it that way. The other way is you can text us you can text the phone number 8056195550 and you text the word Fitmark F-I-T-M-A-R-K. So thank you keep listening go claim that offer it's a ton of value and if you ever want to get a hold of me or if you have suggestions for guests topics or anything else if we just want to ask a question uh I always respond you can reach me at Eric E R I C at fitnessmarketingalliance.com and keep listening we have a lot more coming down the pipe and we'll make sure that we're keeping the value great for you guys and farewell till next time