VR, AR, AI, and Gyms of The Future - David Shaw

I think we might see that first in a fitness center where you have a room dedicated to VR and AR where you're able to go in and the thing is going to be that content. So what's that content that that facility creates or able to use that might not be uh built on the home that drives somebody in and then what what they might release out to the home market, but give you other options to work with within the fitness center.

What is up, fitness fans? Welcome back to the Future of Fitness Podcast and Interview Series. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and this is episode number 121. I talked to David Shaw. Finally, yes, I got connected with him. I, you know, I apologize. I I don't remember who connected us, but it was about a year ago. And since then, I've been following up and trying to get David on the show when he has three times. He's a busy guy. And uh he is an expert on technology within the fitness and health industry. So if you listen to the show at all, uh you'll know that I love talking about fitness and health tech. It's so fascinating to me. It's so interesting, and it's so important that uh people within our industry stay educated on it, know how to use it, where the opportunities are, and where we should be a little bit careful, right? So David lays it all out. We talk about it all. There's nothing that uh the very few corners of tech that we didn't get into. And it was really fun for me personally to ask all these questions and jive with somebody who um, you know, gets my questions. So without further ado, let's actually I lied. Further ado, here we go. This episode is brought to you by Certified Course Creation. So a couple things. If you have a deep knowledge in a specific area of fitness and health and wellness, and you're ready to stop training your time for money and you want to turn this thing into an online course, the people at Certified Course Creation can absolutely help you do that. So all you need is a concept, all you need is the raw knowledge. They'll do the rest of it, right? Between helping you build out the curriculum, uh editing your content, whether it be video or written, uh, bringing in a team of scientific writers to get all the annotations correct so you can push it through for accreditation, building out the exam, building out slides, building out everything, a sales page, uh an email series, like it's the greatest value. And if you here's the thing with a great client, it could be turned around 60 days. Think about that. So if you want to build an online accredited certification course, you could have it done in 60 days if you go to the people at certifiedcoursecreation.com and inquire and learn more. Uh so now, without further ado, let's get on to episode number 121 with David Shaw. We're gonna talk about the future of technology and the gems of the future. People get excited. Here we go. All right, and we're live. David Shaw, welcome, my friend. Hi, Eric. Yeah, this is gonna be fun. So I um, you know, I've been tracking you down to get an interview for a long time, and uh, I can't exactly remember how we first connected, but I know you um have been in the industry for a very long time. Um you have an astronomical uh amount of LinkedIn contacts, which is amazing to me. And uh you also have a uh a strong interest and uh a ton of knowledge in the uh technical side of things, the electronics and um, you know, where the tech side of the industry is going. And obviously the name of the show is the future of fitness, so that falls right in line um with what we like to talk about here. And um before we get inside of the good stuff, David, maybe give us a little background, give us your bio.

Yeah, I'm very fortunate to have, you know, especially in the last few years, a um, you know, a background in high tech and and also fitness. So, you know, going back, uh I was in the military and had a secret clearance. So worked on uh infrared, night vision, thermal pads, computer systems, you know, back then uh uh stuff that uh people didn't know existed. And then from there went to uh work for Western Digital. Um while I was working at Western Digital, I was doing personal training at night and um actually met the gentleman that um uh repaired the treadmills and the cardio equipment because it was really just starting to make a big scene as far as electronic cardio pieces in clubs back then. So I definitely date myself of how long I've been in fitness. Um but um you know he said that uh you know, I just happened to get laid off at Western Digital. I was interviewing at McDonnell Douglas, and um the guy said, you know, we're looking for some way to fix these circuit boards. And I looked at him, I said, uh, you know, those really aren't circuit boards, they're pretty simple. But um, yeah, I'd love to love to talk to you guys about that. So um, you know, started working with them, working on electronic cardio pieces, and uh from there actually built a service company uh called SportsTech, where we did maintenance for all the 24-hour fitnesses and all the LA fitnesses in Southern California, and also did warranty work for um pretty much every single manufacturer. So if you call it Life Fitness, uh it was my company that came out in Southern California and did service to it, whether it was in your home or uh in your club. And then from there, kind of got into uh developing fitness products. Um, hired uh Dr. Paul Ward, actually Gentleman just recently passed away. He's got an incredible bio at his funeral last Saturday. You know, the guy was a um Marine Corps captain, um, went on to be a professional football player for the Detroit Lions, went on to coach for the U.S. Olympic Committee team, uh, went on to publish books and articles, uh, encyclopedia of weight training. So, you know, great mentor, uh, someone we brought on to do biomechanics, where we developed about 85 different pieces of selectorized freeway. And we worked on um worked on a few uh other interesting things. We actually uh had a prototype of a uh spin bike with a uh display panel with a screen on it. So about seven years ahead of Peloton, uh definitely very early technology. It was a program out of the UK that had computer generated graphics that kind of took you on a spin class. And uh we were trying to figure out how to drive it on this touch screen, whether it was a DVD or a video server. But um, you know, way ahead of for you know video on demand or streaming and uh way ahead of you know first generation touch screens. So a little bit ahead of its time.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I you've obviously so it sounds like you you've seen a lot of the technology kind of coming, right? Um it's gonna be great to get your insights on on where it's going now. And you just get you just got back from the uh consumer electronics show, right? Correct. Talk to us about that experience.

You know, that's a it's an incredible show. It's huge. You you definitely got to have a game plan. Um you know, this the square footage of that show to to you know to physically try and walk it, it's it's two to three days. So you definitely have a game plan on what you're looking at, uh, what sections it covers a few different can, you know, two of the major convention centers. It takes up uh all of them, and then it even has uh space in some of the different um hotels. Um but looking at that show, you know, it's kind of you know, it's the Super Bowl of trade shows. It's the launching platform for everything new in high-tech. Um you know, the past couple years were some huge announcements. You know, last this last show was was good. The year previous, you know, we had the launching of uh, you know, flying cars and ping pong playing robots, you know. So I'm always a little spoiled looking for those crazy, you know, new things.

Uh it sounds like fun.

Yeah, and you know, they have a lot of virtual VR experiences with pods that you would sit in that would spin 360 degrees, you know, as you're in virtual reality. Uh, you know, a lot of wearables with full body suits or tech and movement. So, you know, the past couple years there's been a lot of huge announcements um at CES. Yeah.

Interesting. So, you know, before we we recorded this day, we were chatting a little bit about maybe three main areas. Um, you know, because there's so much in tech. And I I ask, you know, my other podcasts, uh, you know, I ask everyone during interviews of, you know, what piece of technology do you think is going to shift the industry? And you know, out of 350 interviews that I did, you know, there's there's obviously patterns that come about, right? Um amongst those big ones are always um, you know, people always say wearables, that seems to be a big one. Um uh you know, mobile phones, apps, all that. Uh and you and I specifically talked about VR AR, right? So virtual reality, altered reality, um, as well as artificial intelligence, which I think is gonna kind of rule them all um eventually. But give us, let's kind of categorically go through these and maybe give us some backgrounds on your thoughts and what you're seeing out there. Uh maybe we can start with VR and AR.

Sure. VR and AR, so uh virtual reality and augmented reality. Um there's been a lot of scientific research um, you know, coming out of San Francisco State uh over the past couple of years. They're figuring out that when you work out in VR, it changes your perceived exertion. So they're doing testing of people on you know exercise machines and then also putting them in a VR state where they're playing, you know, the different VR game, whether they're you know shooting bows and arrows, they're doing lightsaber, they're hitting objects, they're boxing. And what they're doing is, you know, they're doing VO2 max intake, they're they're re doing all the readings to see where they're at, what their heart rate is, how much calories they're burning, and they're they're looking at that data. And the big thing is when they come out of you know, take off the VR goggles and they're asked, you know, basically, how how was your workout? What's your perceived exertion? How hard was it? It's always less than what they actually did. So whatever, you know, we're still learning some of that data of what VR does to kind of almost trick the mind, you know, whatever state of you, you know, there's definitely uh some adrenaline and some other issues going, you know, some other things going on when you're playing a game and in that state, you don't really notice how hard you're exercising. But I think, you know, for myself, being on uh the step mill for 30 minutes, you know, I've got my iPad and I'm going through Netflix shows. So, you know, the old the the old thing of kind of um uh you know doing something distract yourself for 30 minutes. VR holds uh you know a lot of promise of being able to engage and immerse you, put you in immersion that um not only does it go quicker, but it's also less. So less less feeling of pain or discomfort while you're exercising.

Yeah, and that makes perfect sense. I mean, you know, you just look at like I mean, you just look at human evolution, right? Is we used to exercise wasn't a thing. It was just our lives, right? And now, you know, we've kind of hurt ourselves, and Don Moxley was on the show last week and we talked about you know how we all live in kind of a fishbowl now. So we have to like uh manually create these scenarios where we get the activity that we need. Yet there's especially in adulthood, I feel there's there's a lack of play, right? A lack of fun. Sure, you know, and and perhaps this is something that could bring that back and kind of tie it all together.

Yeah, there's definitely some some companies like um you know, Icaros has a um a device. They've been at CES. I think this is this was probably their third year there. And if you could kind of imagine if you're in a plank position, but you're supporting yourself almost with like a uh basketball at your belly button, of how you would hold yourself in that 360-degree sphere and hold that plank and then actually be able to rotate your body just at the slightest movements to be able to play a game and kind of fly in the air. So um, you know, with them, they're looking at not only having VR experiences, but then also setting up a community. So that you know, since there is that huge gameplay community of video games, um, it definitely opens the door for some other interaction with groups and other people.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. And I um we had another guy, Taylor Johnson, who's really big into the esports world. Um we talked a lot about that. And I'm wondering, you know, do you see the potential for you know, VR, AR, gaming, all of that?

Um to assist with the the issue that we have with youth, right?

The the epidemic of obesity and inactivity. Um, do you feel like this is an opportunity to kind of meet kids where they are?

Sure. There's a gentleman, um, Eric Strand that has a company um also up in Silicon Valley. Very interesting guy. I had the opportunity to speak with uh before one of my conferences uh on uh AR and VR. And he's got a company that actually rates video games. So he he they're doing the same thing as far as that scientific testing of looking at your how many calories you're burning while playing that game and coming up with a rating system. So whether it's the kids or the parents are able to now look at that game and say, you know what? I'm gonna buy that one for my son or daughter and and have them play that one because it looks like they're gonna get some exercise.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, I kind of a funny and embarrassing story, I guess, a little bit is that um back in my twenties when I was single, I was living in San Francisco, and uh um my nephew actually gave me a Wii, right? Remember Wii? And uh I would, dude, I would play that game, the tennis game. I was like, game free with it. I you know, I never bought games, I don't think. But man, I would uh I would be dripping in sweat. I was playing like by myself, right, in my apartment. And uh, you know, at one point I think I even injured my shoulder uh playing the game. But it was so like I was like, I was like, wow, this is actually way better than going to the gym. You know, I'm legitimately having you know some fun here and I could play this for a very long time. And uh that was back, God, you know, 15 years ago, right? And now imagine it's come so far. How like how close does this stuff to being in the home all the time? Like, how close are we to to that for VR AR?

You know, in the home with the with the latest Sony PlayStation, I think the last couple of years with their uh VR option. So it it's definitely coming in the home. I I think you know, um probably every console is gonna have some type of VR AR component to it. And just because of that immersion, uh, compared to, you know, even even if you have a 65-inch TV or gaming uh, you know, display panel, um, it's just so much more to be in that VR AR state.

Yeah.

So yeah, definitely in the home, it's it's gonna drive the industry. It's just seeing where, then um, that moves over to the fitness uh sector as far as a club or commercial location. Right.

Right. Do you think um well there's there's a lot of companies out there doing it, right? I mean, there's um BlackBox, VR, um, there's a few other ones, but who are some of the leaders in the fitness realm for VR, AR?

You know, Black Box uh at last year's CS, that was definitely one of my um one of the main companies I wanted to visit and try. So, you know, very interesting product. So developing their own games, um, but the the big thing that was uh kind of forefront what they've done is be able to link it to a cable resistance system. So, you know, you walk into kind of looks like um, gosh, like a giant stand-up candy bed or something, like a booth that you walk into and put on the headset. Uh, you go ahead, and then as you look back, you could see your hands because you're wearing uh gloves, they're simulation uh showing where your hands are in that space. Reach back, grab a handle on each side, and then as you walk into this virtual arena, kind of a you know, Roman Colosseum, all of a sudden this dragon comes down from the sky and starts shooting fireballs at you, and you've got to basically hit them and knock them out. So the big thing is as hard as you push, yeah, it's giving you resistance back. Right. So you know, there's definitely that VR space where you could kind of follow along, whether you're on a bike, um, you know, some kind of movement, but being able to hook it to resistance also, I think is definitely a game changer.

Yeah. Yeah, there's um interview that we had recently for this show, too. I keep going back to post-interviews, but uh just the people I know, uh, a company called Tonal out of San Francisco. Um you know, very similar. They're kind of taking, you know, the whole Peloton model and putting it into resistance training, right? And they use electromagnetic um resistance to do it. It's quite fascinating, really. And uh I would have a unit if you know my wife and I weren't nomadic because you got to bolt this thing into the wall, and I don't think the people I read from would like that. But it seems really, really interesting stuff. Are you familiar with that one as well?

Yeah, you know, I included um a little bit of research on them. So I included um, you know, some photos of their product along with a mirror. Um the lady out of uh I believe New York that launched a uh mirror also. So kind of similar, wall-mounted units. Um yeah, total's interesting. I I think you know, as someone who designed strength equipment in the past, my big thing is is feeling how that magnetic resistance is done. You know, Life Fitness did that years ago with their life circuit with uh basically a giant motor, like almost like a treadmill motor, creating an electrical field and generating resistance. So seeing how that feels, I think is going to be a big thing. Um yeah, I'm looking forward to trying that out. But I think it was, you know, Intel um did a kind of a presentation on the gym of the future also, and um they showed in in their gym of the future kind of this image where you know a lot of the weight machines have gone away. So they're electronically controlled and a lot of stuff is wall-mounted also. So opening up that floor space, which a lot of fitness facilities have been have been doing in the first place with functional training. But if you kind of kind of imagine where all those selectorized machines moving that kind of archaic weight plate up and down kind of disappears, uh, how much smaller the units could become, uh, how much more even possibly wall-mounted they could become. So you're dealing with less of a frame structure, and how that can definitely revolutionize the uh gym floor as far as square footage of what you what you have to work with.

Yeah. Oh, how fascinating. What do you what do you think the gym of the future is going to look like, David?

Um you know, there's there's a lot of different things. You know, maybe it would stray off of um some of the stuff that was probably at CES. Um, the um uh being able to communicate with people outside of the gym with uh you know, with apps and things like that, I think is gonna be big. How you communicate outside, how you draw them in, how they interact uh in the fitness center, and then how they're also moved around, and then how they also uh receive content. So as far as being able to work out so what instruction, whether you know you have that live group instructor, you have something that's giving you audio cues through your phone, you have something on a screen, um, you know, that and then the you know the VR component of you know, there's a few different areas of VR and AR of how it might look. Um I think the wearing goggles right now where it's hooked up to a computer is definitely difficult. And there are some newer systems where you're you're dealing less, uh, you know, where you do have wireless, you don't have the the graphic capability that's that's pushing through it um compared to the wired. But you know, to me, that's why I think we don't see you know some of these products in clubs where you're you you hop on a life cycle and someone sitting next to you is wearing a VR headset. You know, it was still a little awkward. Yeah, you know, kind of be able to do that. Yeah, it'll it will look a little be a little awkward. So you know, VR and AR, there there's just they're I think they're finding out too that research, it's not just wearing the goggles, but you know, you see studios in London where they're looking at a whole entire wall of TVs, and for yoga, they're showing images of the beach, and then they're they're piping in you know sights and sounds and music. Wow. So you know, they've got smells of the beach coming in, they've got um sounds, and then they got this huge video wall. So in a room, it's almost you know, you receive still a lot of those benefits that are almost like virtual reality of wearing a headset. Yeah, and then there's even some companies, uh, one that I met with a couple years ago at um CES Boxel. So they're moving in the direction of arcades where you have where you wear these kind of more like an AR 3D glass, but you are in a booth, um, kind of like a you know, a three-sided tent, and it's projecting images on the floor and then also in front of you and on the walls. So it has you move around, whether you're like jumping over, you know, things that are coming at you or you're throwing things, but it's perceiving where you're at in that space. But it's without putting on a VR headset and you lose that outside scenery around you. Right.

Huh. Huh. So yeah, I mean, I would imagine like you know, the visor setup and all that. I mean, that's that's almost very personal that people would do that in home, right? Uh so I guess the the challenge for the fitness industry would be how do we how do we get people, you know, the traditional uh trainer? Because if I, you know, if I'm a traditional personal trainer or coach, right? I'm like, shit. Right. Like, how am I going to compete with that? But it's it's the challenge to get people into the gym, right? Because all this technology is going to be easily homebound. Right. I mean, you know, if I want to do a workout and you know, I don't want to feel self-conscious, I could just put on the visor at home, run through a workout, right? Uh, and do all that. But to get me into a gym setting, I'd be like, well, why would I? Right. Right. Um, unless I'm die, you know, really, really feeling that need to get out and socialize and be part of a tribe or community, which is huge too, which is very understated within all of the technology movement. But yeah, I guess I don't know where my question is in that, but I'd be curious to see, like, you know, how is that how gyms are doing to do? Is they're creating a virtual environment that's shared with people? Is that the key, you think?

You know, I think it as far as physically being in the gym, they're gonna, you know, kind of like what black box is VR is doing is kind of create a room. So you will have a room where you could go in and do a boxing workout. So, you know, with uh Floyd Mayorweather, uh, his, you know, his launch of his chain of health clubs, you know, has a VR boxing component where you're able to box against him, spar with him, have him coach you, train you. So, you know, I still got to get up to LA and see what they're doing there as far as their physical location. But I think we might see that first in a fitness center where you have a room dedicated to VR and AR, where you're able to go in and the thing is gonna be that content. So, what's that content that that facility creates are able to use that might not be uh available at the home that drives somebody in and then what what they might release out to the home market, um, but give you other options to work with within the fitness center.

Yeah. So do you think the opportunity for fitness coaches now is is to start really, if they're really looking, you know, 10 years down the road, maybe less, is to start to start creating their own content for this type of thing. Like where, you know, if yeah, so that's that's the big question. You know, if I'm listening to this, I'm a fitness coach, what would what should I be doing right now?

Right.

Right, how should I be preparing?

Yeah, I had that question at uh at my last conference from a couple trainers. And um, you know, I think it was gonna be uh gym go as a product with your computer where you're using uh your camera on your computer and you're able to coach people as a personal trainer in their home. And they have, I think, a couple different business models where it's one-on-one or it's group. Um, so starting to look at as a trainer, um, where are these digital of how you're able to touch those consumers, um, how you're able to reach them on a digital platform. It's kind of almost like video on demand and streaming. So clubs that generate that content for group exercise and group workouts, um, being able to film it, monetize it, get it out to the public, and then have those benefits of where it's driving people to the fitness center, or now you're also monetizing that content that was just within the club. So you're you're working outside the four walls. So there's a lot of different areas. Even um, you know, what's big at CES, a big thing, uh, a couple years ago, and there's definitely a huge battle going on between Alexa and Google Assist, where they're embedding that in every every product. You know, they want to have uh it's kind of the funny things kind of at CES, where you know you they want to have a smart toaster. So, you know, everything's uh controlled by your voice. You know, I want to I want to cook this for this one amount of time I want to do this. It's all voice control. So they're trying to embed that right now in every product, and there's a battle between those two companies.

Yeah, it's the internet of things. Yeah, it's exactly what what what kind of timeline do you think, man? I mean, that's a big question too, is like, well, is this, you know, is this like 2022? Is this 2020? Is it, you know, 2030? Where where do you think we'll start to see like and it just seems so insidious too, right? Like it just kind of it's been creeping along within our lives pretty steadily since like 2007, you know, with the inception of our iPhone and a bunch of other technological movements. Uh but it now it just seems so common, right? Like it's just seems normal that we talk to a little box in our in our house and it you know, pulls up my latest podcast or it pulls up whatever, right? A shopping list or um like where do you think the critical mass will like, okay, let me paint a picture? Okay. So uh I wake up in the morning, uh, you know, Alexa triggers or Google Assist triggers, you know, my alarm. Uh states, hey, good morning, Eric. Uh hey, here's your to-do list for today. What would you like to start with? Meditation, breakfast, right? Um then as my day goes on, you know, I say, Hey, cook, you know, I want uh you know, tell me what I should be doing today. And it gives me a list, like, oh, you know, you're out of for you need to go to the grocery store, you're out of eggs, right? Right. All these things. And then it just becomes, you know, kind of like we're just completely encapsulated by the technology. Um, you know, I have a home workout unit, right? Where, okay, hey, how was your sleep last night? Ah, it was okay. Well, we know from your your wearables that you your you know HRV is at this level, so we're gonna adjust your workout today, right? To that. Um, and then on and on and on throughout the day, right? Where do you see this actually taking? Like, how soon do you see something like that taking place?

You know, developers are working on the next generation of apps. So artificial intelligence is what's really driving that, the amount of data that's out there. Yeah. So that's the thing. So you go into a business meeting, uh, you know, it knows what time your meeting's scheduled to, it could tell where you're, you know, if you've left the meeting, you've walked out of the room and it orders your Uber for you and it's sitting there waiting for you. So, you know, it's kind of like the same thing you talked about. So it's gonna know how well you slept, it's gonna know what workout options then are gonna benefit you that day and how to tailor those. Whether you're in the fitness center, you know, it it's you know, you got a meeting coming up after that. So it's it's gonna tell you, all right, let's let's get you um, you know, whatever kind of protein shake or a drink that gives you some energy, whatever it might be. So it's gonna be able to, you know, know what you need to do, or it's gonna be able to make those recommendations for you uh from all that different data that's being captured.

Yeah, and that's I mean, that's a great segue into AI because that's really what's gonna kind of rule it all, right? I mean, there's all this data being collected, you know, every single point. And you know, we talk about you know, some of the examples of like we already talked about wearables or HRV or sleep monitors and all this different information that's out there, and then locational data, and then you know, um, our purchasing history, uh, all that stuff. It's just it's an incredible amount of data that's getting collected on us, whether we like it or not, right? Um you know, one of the things I was talking to some friends when they were visiting the other day is, you know, they're fully convinced that our phones are listening to us when we don't want them to be, right? They're convinced. They're like, you know, we were talking about this thing, and then all of a sudden, you know, two days later it came up um, you know, as an advertisement in my in my you know, search feed, right? Um, so anyway, so all this data is being collected um and all these different data points, but AI is gonna be the one that's gonna sort through all the big data and then and then actualize it, right? I mean how correct.

Yeah, it's funny. There was uh, you know, and I apologize, I can't remember the the the app, but there one of these companies um you know just launched a new app to, you know, whatever the benefit was, but people were looking at it and saying, you know what, it's actually designed just to capture that data that they're gonna do something with in the future. Right. So you know, that's the products and apps are already being viewed. Uh people are already starting to realize that in the industry, that they're just using it for data capture. So, you know, having a having a great app uh like Google Maps or Waze, you know, generates a lot of data of where you're moving, uh, where you're going, uh things like that. You know, 60 Minutes had a had a great story about, you know, with China, what they're doing with artificial intelligence and how they're definitely on the forefront. Um, you know, one thing that was really interesting is they showed where they have these rural schools. So if you're out in the middle of anywhere, but you still want the benefit of those teachers in the cities, um they're able to have a um full screen teaching a class, but they're using systems very similar to like Xbox Connect, which also there's you know some products at CES about that, about detecting how you move. Um, but the big thing with AI now is the data for facial recognition. So they're able to actually look at this student's faces. You got 30 kids sitting in this classroom and they're watching this lecture on math, it's able to look at their faces and say, you know what, he's struggling. This kid looks confused. So the teachers then, given that data of the student during this part of the lecture or course, seemed a little bit confused, and they're able then to adjust their curriculum personalized to them to help them push through that part of it. So if you kind of imagine that uh, you know, with AI, you know, the next generation be able to kind of even tell you um, you know, what uh what kind of workouts to do that might be the best tailored for you, but then also have some data capture of you know what you did well with, what you seem to enjoy to tailor it even to another level. So it's now gonna develop workouts for you. You know what? You didn't you didn't really enjoy that leg workout, even though you got to push through and there's exercises you need to do, but let's figure out ways to make it more comfortable for you, more enjoyable, and push that new workout to you to make sure they to keep you coming back, to keep you working out.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you know, and ultimately I think that's a big part of it. You know, when it comes to I I look at uh our traditional educational models, right? Or or our current fitness models, it's just not fun, right? Like, you know, going for kids going to school, for most kids, it's awful, right? You gotta sit in this chair for a while, you gotta memorize all this stuff, right? For most people in the adult age, you know, fitness is like, ah, they just think it's like drudgery. I gotta go and I gotta sit on this damn bike and I gotta sit there and just deal with the pain or you know, whatever it is. And I I see the big opportunity for all the technology is to gamify and make things more fun. You know, we talk about a couple of colleagues were talking about how virtual reality can change and completely um uh disrupt the educational system. Like imagine, you know, an immersive experience where kids can go in and walk through the actual um, this is on a Joe Rogan episode, where they can actually walk through the the uh Egyptian pyramids and learn and touch and like right and and absorb the history from that point of view. Like, who wouldn't want to go to school, right? And the same with like fitness, like what if it was a game and it was cool, like, you know, hey, I'm gonna go run and jump through a jungle or you know, do something really awesome with my fitness. Wouldn't that be amazing? Uh and that's that's where I'm extremely optimistic is you know, if we can actually engage people and and uh the drudgery can be removed.

Yeah, I think that gamification, and then you've got that whole um, you know, that that group uh you know that success that's led towards you know, F-45 and Orange Theory, where you where you have that group setting. Um and then virtual just opens up the door to globally being involved in a group and competing and having a leaderboard, and now you're you know, uh exercising with someone uh you know another country or anywhere in the world. So yeah, it'll definitely expand. VR and AR will expand that uh group setting, and then the gamification coming from the the video game sector will be incredible.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. I I I just wonder, you know, how do you think it's gonna actually affect the fitness profession? You know, like who let's just be straightforward. Like who what jobs are gonna get eliminated? What what roles do you think are gonna have some trouble in the future?

Yeah, I think there's still gonna be, you know, it's it's uh it's kind of funny, you know, my last slide, you know, when you know I try and talk about what the gym of the future looks like in 2020 and 2025. Yeah, you know, I I I have a slide typically at the end of my conference that says, you know, here's the gym of 2030, and and it's basically people moving rocks outside and and uh doing pull-ups from a tree branch. Yeah. So you know, things come around full circle, but I think, you know, I definitely see also that there's gonna be a time and a place where you don't want the phone to tell you what to do and build that workout for you, and you don't want to be next to somebody wearing a VR headset and and uh everything tracking you in the gym and all that high-tech electronics. So, you know, there might be the the most popular franchise in 10 years could be where it's just free weights. Yeah. You know, and you're going in, you check your phone at the door, and you don't do anything else. Um but you know, with with technology, you know, one of the things um I should have to look it up here, but I you know, I I quote a guy that's um an economist, and it, you know, one of his quotes, um let's see here, things take longer uh to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could. So it it's kind of like uh all these neck new technologies, you know, when you first kind of hear about it, you're like, you know, that's yeah that's gonna take a little while to happen. But then all of a sudden you wake up and it feels like, you know, now I'm ordering a car or um you know, I'm booking a hotel room on an app. Yeah. You know, it just seems like overnight all of a sudden it's there. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's interesting. I um I I feel like it is exactly what what you just said is exactly the way I feel about technology. It's like, oh, it seems so far off. Yet here's some stuff already is, right? But then, you know, the things that we dream about, um, you know, there's still things in like old, you know, movies from like I say old movies from like the 90s, right? Where we look around the future, or um, you're like, oh, that's still so far off. And then there's other things like, oh yeah, that already happened like five years ago. And uh it's just here already. Um yeah. So what is, I mean, we kind of talked about you know a little bit, but give us some more insight because you present on the gym in the future. I'm really curious to get more detail on that. Like, what is that? Well give us more details on what you think that looks like. Um, because we've kind of talked about you know the wall-mounted thing. So it's it's using square footage better. If I'm a if I'm a consumer and I'm walking into my gym, um, what is what is my experience do you think gonna be like, right? Is there gonna be personal trainers there?

Yeah, I I think you know, talking about uh about jump, job elimination, I I think you know, trainers uh looking at some of those digital components. Uh I think even like um, you know, Alexa, uh, you know, with voices being able to put together workouts, there's there's a lot of different areas um that they could look at to move into as far as reach. Um but I think there's still gonna be some physical component of what you know that trainer does and offers in the fitness facility. But that communication, um being able to reach outside the gym and have you have you do stuff as far as workouts, go for a hike, whatever it might be, is gonna be big, um that they're gonna need to do so so some outreach outside the gym. But inside the facility, uh you know, facial recognition when you check in, which is already big uh starting to grow in Asia. So facial recognition when you check in, being able to use that AI data of what you've how you slept, what you ate uh prior to working out, what some recommendations are for you, physically how then you're moved through the facility. So, you know, whether it's your phone, whether it's display panels, whether you know the treadmill be as you walk in the door, it's been queued up with your favorite workout on it. It's got your name on it, you walk up to it, and then now you're on it. So all those different ways that you're being touched electronically and being moved, uh, and then what data is being given to you as far as how to use the machines and what to do. I think is gonna be some of the big changes.

And then so the human to human interaction, right? Um I mean, I think any I think things that are highly relationship-based will will still do really well. You know, sure. That the interpersonal relationship. And do you think this is gonna empower trainers to have more touch points on their clients and therefore better retention and better experience, maybe even higher price points? Or um yeah, how do you envision that that relationship piece coming into play?

Yeah, it's definitely gonna be uh a lot of additional tools that are gonna be available to them to look at that data that's that's gonna be able to create a better experience or more success for their clients as far as what they do. So that's definitely gonna assist them. And I what products and companies will see that they're gonna devise or provide those tools is is something, you know, I don't think it's there yet. Yeah. We'll see what comes out. But yeah, I think um those resources, and I think you know, there's probably a lot of different sectors that are gonna drive that that'll eventually come into fitness.

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So um a slight shift of topic, because we talked about this before, but you had mentioned um the technology of recovery.

Right.

Sure. Yeah. So what is what's that starting to look like? You know, what are some of the big players there?

You know, at CES, there's a few different things. So, you know, with recovery and sleep, I think it was maybe three or four shows ago at CES, three or four years ago. Um, you know, Under Armour uh launched some products as far as sleep recovery. Um they're looking at you know, infrared and clothing and sleep monitoring. So I think the big thing in the fitness industry was, you know, you work out years ago. You need to get into a gym, you needed to move, you need to be active, you need to do something. And then it was you need to eat healthy. So let's let's eat, you know, working out, eating healthy. And then kind of the next portion is now kind of sleep. And then they're realizing, you know what, if you don't get a good night's sleep or you're not recovering, um, you know, you're losing some of those benefits you're getting from the other two. So definitely a lot of sleep products that I've been looking at at CES. Um, you know, products that monitor your sleep, there's products that uh induce, help induce REM sleep. So there's, you know, there's devices that plug in your wall that uh kind of mask uh out external noise. Yeah. So you're generating white noise, kind of masking external noise. So if you're you know living in an apartment in New York or whatever, you want to kind of mask some noise, but it also generates frequencies that can help induce REM sleep. So keep you in REM longer. And then there's devices to, of course, monitor that REM sleep and make recommendations. So whether it's wearables, you know, you know, a lot of different things. Um, that even moves into some of the companies and products that are um even um uh inducing signals into the brain, you know, being able to change your rev sleep patterns or even um, you know, as far as training athletes, being able to stimulate those areas of the brain when you move in a certain direction to be able to not just muscle memory, but your brain actually knowing that's the direction you're supposed to move. That's the correct pattern, that's the correct movement, and helping teaching you that quicker.

Wow. Wow. What do you uh what do you what technology do you use, man, on like a daily basis? Like, is there any any things that you seem to show you, like, you know, I'm gonna start to use that for sleep recovery. I'm gonna start using that for my training. You know, is there anything that you personally adopted?

Um, you know, I test a lot of products. So I do have a lot of companies that ship me things. So it's kind of like I um, you know, I'm continually testing something new. So there's not a lot of things that I could kind of stick with. Um you know, for me, it's it's I'm always trying to experience something new. Yeah.

Yeah. Anything recently that you can talk about?

Um yeah, there's definitely some some some new stuff. Um not nothing yet I can really talk about. Uh damn. Yeah.

I wanted the goods. I wanted the goods. Yeah. Yeah, I occasionally get um, you know, people who send me some stuff to to play with and it it's it's pretty cool. Um but uh you know for me nothing is really stuck yet uh besides you know my mobile apps and my phones and stuff like that. I'm still pretty old school, you know. In fact, uh some time this afternoon I'm gonna put on my skins and go up a ski mountain and then ski back down. That's my workout for the day, right? No AI is gonna help me with that, um, although a good podcast will. Um what else, man? As we kind of wrap this up, is there any other messaging or technology do you think the fitness and and health profession should be aware of and um and checking out?

Yeah, uh you know that I think um those are probably the main ones are gonna be VR and AR and how that looks uh in the future. And I think it's probably gonna be a room where um You know, where you're either putting something on or something projected, um AI, and then the other one's gonna be wearables. I think those are probably the three key things that are really gonna affect uh fitness in the future. There's so many different directions and so many different products. So it's just figuring out which ones of those are gonna stick. Um yeah, you know, one thing I want to talk about, like um gosh, you know, having these sensors. I I remember being approached by companies uh, you know, a few years back talking about putting a sensor in every kettlebell, uh, you know, every every dumbbell. So being able to detect the movement, the force, uh direction. Um, and then there's other technology like the Xbox Connect that's actually just viewing that with a sensor. So I think that's gonna also impact um, especially the free weight area, the group training area, of being able to whether it's something you're moving that's connected, or something that's that's mapping your body. And that then being able to use that AI and that data to be able to correct uh your movement or and then be able to also give you additional exercises of what you should be doing.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. And I I would agree that those are the big ones. Um, you know, AR, VR, wearables, AI. Um just from you know, my general curiosity and questions that I ask, I think those are the biggest areas. But it's just gonna be it's only time will tell how all of it shakes out, what what grabs the market, what doesn't, what technology pushes forward, what falls back. Um, and that's why I mean that's that's really the excitement of it is is trying to follow all this stuff and and seeing you know what's what's hitting in the market and uh you know who's getting funding, who's not, right? Well all the all the random uh um factors that come into uh you know who who takes over. You know, we talk about China being the leader in AI. I mean people don't talk about there's a huge AI race going on right now. Oh yeah. And it's it doesn't like it's it's it's the Cold War of the 80s, really. But no one really ever seems to talk about it, which is weird to me, maybe because it's so um, you know, Klandenstein or I I don't know. I don't know what it is, but it's it I wish more people would talk about it. And you know, I joke about it like my wife loves when you know at dinner parties I bring up these conversations, right? Uh you and me both really freaks people out. Uh sometimes like, whoa, that guy. He's uh there he goes talking about uh you know synchronicity.

Have you read up on the uh social credit system in China?

No. Oh yes, yeah. Yeah, yes. Yeah, so that and that's what that is, really quick.

Yeah, yeah. So you know, I I believe it hasn't been rolled out in Beijing yet, but it's been tested in other cities. So, you know, looking at your social media and what you do, assigning almost like a like a FICO score, but now you have a social credit score. And then being able to, you know, you have a higher score, so you don't protest or you do public service and you do other things that benefit your community. Now all of a sudden you're getting awarded points that open up more doors for you as far as travel and being able to visit things, places and do things.

It's it's Black Mir, right? Do you watch that show? Oh yeah, you know that episode I'm talking about, right? The social media episode?

Yeah.

Yeah. That show, okay, not to get too off, but that show, I actually I I can only handle it in small doses because it's so potentially real and it's so right now. It's intense. It's really intense. And uh it's like everything you want to you don't want to see technology do uh that show. Um so okay, uh looking at AI and the future of of all this stuff, we're we're on the spectrum of um utopia to uh Skynet from Terminator, right? Where where do you fall into that? What what's your future uh level of optimism?

Yeah, you know, growing up watching all the sci-fi shows and then the you know the whole Terminator and things like that. You know, for me, I'm starting to think that there's a different scenario, that it's not gonna be that uh whole robotic war uh against humanity. I think AI might get to a point where it actually figures out the smarter route is being able to control us via our phones and a social credit system or whatever it might be. So if you can imagine that, you know, AI, so depending on what you're doing on a daily basis, if you're doing things that say benef benefit the group collective AI system, it's helping uh your resume get posted on a job board, or it's you know, helping whatever that make a more frictionless society for you, if you're more beneficial to the overall system. So not fighting us and uh but more control uh could be the the different scenario.

Yeah.

I don't think this is you know, Hollywood fighting robots might be a little bit more Hollywood. So I don't know if mine turns out to be a movie, but it's it's definitely a different direction.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm very uh I'm I skew optimistic. I think, you know, that that is a completely different view, right? And I think you know what you're talking about and the stuff they're doing in China is really uh, I think we should be keeping a very close eye on that um and where that goes. Uh but I do think I I I'm optimistic about it. I mean, you know, the thing that that does scare me is the AI race a little bit, you know. If I wake up at three in the morning, sometimes I think about that. Um and it just happens to be, you know, as I had um a gentleman out of Tel Aviv, uh Amri Yafi from uh co uh Coach AI. No, sorry, not Coach AI, um V Trainer. And we were talking about he's like, you know, we haven't we have nuclear uh arsenals, we haven't managed to blow ourselves up yet. So I'm optimistic that you know, moving forward we can we can control that nature within us to to not do something completely for us. But so I guess it's like looking upon, okay, we made it this far, right? Without completely screwing things up. So hopefully, you know, we can get into the AI age of although it's already here and all this technology and we can use that uh in the right term. It just matters who's who's got the finger on the button metaphorically, right? Sure.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, listeners, for taking that segue, but you had to listen to that.

Uh that was well it could be positive. We're we're not gonna have you know robots firing lasers in the future, possibly. It might be another direction, you know.

So yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Well, David, um, thanks, man. This is really, I mean, hopefully you'll come back on. I'd like to get an update from me in like six months of where you're thinking. Um, that'd be great, Eric. Yeah. And where where do people get a hold of you? Where do people find you?

Uh you know, on LinkedIn. So uh that's probably where I post uh the most information. My next conference will be uh succeed in Irvine. So uh AFS has a has a conference in Irvine. I'll be speaking uh Saturday, April 13th, uh, at that conference on the same topic, gym of uh 2020, 2025. Awesome, awesome. And then um, you know, our website, uh, you know, one of my clients, Marriott. So we're we've been working with them for about a year and a half now, kind of designing their gym of the future. So growthfitnessdesign.com.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, David, thanks for coming on, man. This has been awesome. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, David Shaw. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel, our fitness marketing alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us. And we're we put a lot of work into these episodes uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness Marketing Alliance.com.