The Next Evolution of Strength Training - Aly Orady

There's a level of AI, you know, we call it generalized intelligence, generalized human intelligence, that you just can't, you can't get technology won't get there for many, many years. Right. When you ask the question of like, what is the future? Uh I think the real question I have for all the trainers who are out there is today there aren't enough of you. How can you use technology to reach and touch even more people? Uh and um what is your place to work with these platforms in order to reach and touch more people?

Hey Fitness fans, welcome back to the Feature Fitness Podcast and Interview Series. This is your host, Eric Nelson, and this is episode number 111. I talk to Ollie Orati. So he is the CEO and founder of Tonal, that is T-O-N-A-L. And it's a really, really interesting piece of home workout technology. So uh if you have listened to the show uh a few times, you probably understand that I am slightly obsessed with fitness technology, where it's going, what we need to know, and uh yeah, how we adapt to it, uh, how we utilize it, how we put it to our advantage. And it's a very interesting thing. So imagine this, and I'll just tell you I hate this uh analogy, but imagine like Peloton, but it's resistance training. So they use electromagnetic uh resistance training, which is a fascinating piece of technology within itself, um, and how they monitor it, how it works. You know, if I have one shoulder that's not as strong as the other, it can differentiate the resistance. It's crazy. It's really cool, and I think it's the future of what um you know home workout equipment will look like for sure. I mean, it already is. It is the future, right? And uh I'm excited to get one of these. Uh as soon as we stop moving around so much, uh, I'm gonna get one of these pieces of equipment and use it all the time. Now imagine when you're listening to how it starts planning into AI and how that starts working, the internet of things um within someone's home. It's just my mind goes spinning on where this could go. So uh without further ado, let's get into it. Actually, more further ado. Um if you haven't yet, go over to Fitness Professional Online. Check it out. We gave it a facelift. Uh, there's a lot of great content there. We're getting fresh uh contributors to the site. Um, all of my podcasts are there, all 430 some odd podcasts over the last year are there uh to you. There's a ton of information. Um, if you are interested in being a contributor to fitnessprofessional online dot com, uh I'd like to hear from you. Uh, you can actually email our content uh manager at VA, V is in Victor, A is in Alfred, at fitnessprofessional online.com, and we can get you information on how to be a contributor. So if you want to be found uh in a nice online publication that has quite a bit of traffic, um go for it. Love to hear from you. So now, without further ado, let's get into it. Number 111, Ali O'Radi of Tonal. And we're live. All right, Ali, welcome to the show, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, this is gonna be a uh a technical, mind-blowing episode for our listeners today of where things are going. And um, anyone who listens to this podcast knows I geek out on tech. I don't thoroughly understand it um at all. And I don't think anybody does. Uh, but you know, the goal of this show is to get you know the fitness professional, um, health professional skating to where the puck is going, not where it is right now. And uh that's why guests like you are so great to have. So I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate your time. Really happy to be here. Yeah. So let's start with your story, man. Give everyone a quick uh a quick bio, your your a little bit of your history. I know you have a quite a success story in fitness as well.

Well, thank you. Well, I'm uh I'm the founder and CEO of Tunnel, uh, which we like to describe as the world's most intelligent uh fitness system. Nice. Uh it's all the equipment you need, it's like having an entire gym in your home, um, and also the equivalent of personal training. Uh so you know, videos uh and data to guide you through your workouts and motivate you and help you get to the next the next level. Um and you know, when you say my story, the the first thing that comes to mind is uh is being like the founder and CEO of a fitness company, you would assume that I've been a lifelong fitness fanatic. Uh, and actually that couldn't be further from the truth. Growing up, I was literally the uh the chubby computer geek who could code. Uh I was like the chubby kid with glasses. And uh I spent you know most of my early life in technology. Uh I started my career at Hewlett-Packard uh in their supercomputing lab lab in Silicon Valley. I was designing the chips that go into computer systems and then uh went and worked on a bunch of telecom gear and video on demand gear, and basically like big heavy computing and and communication systems. Uh and uh and I was having a blast. And by the time I was 35, you know, from a technology perspective, things were going really well. From a career perspective, I was having a lot of fun. Uh, but my health was was in total, total disarray, total shambles. Uh, I had been struggling with my weight my entire life. Uh I had uh I'd been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and sleep apnea. Uh I'd slept at sleep clinics with wires hooked up to me. And uh and and every and and then the number of health health issues kind of piling up from being overweight were were beginning to add up. And and everything was pointing to the same thing. Like, like Ali, you have got to figure out how to lose weight. Um or else you're gonna like just kill yourself or end up like you're gonna hit this point of no return. Right. And it was kind of a desperate moment. So uh I quit my job and I spent nine months losing 70 pounds. Uh and that journey, that weight loss journey, and and that those those that time of real focus uh was really transformational and eye-opening for me, and it's ultimately what led to tonal. And uh first first thing I did is, you know, I I'd always had the gym membership, but like most people, I was sporadic, I didn't really go. Uh and so I started going regularly, I started watching what I'd eat, and and I'd go to the gym and I'd hop on you know on various pieces of cardio equipment. And I lost a little bit of weight in the early days, uh, but quickly plateaued. And and as I did more and more research and learned more, because that's basically my full-time job, uh, I realized I had to incorporate strength training into my routine if I was really going to see the results I wanted. Uh, which in retrospect would have been obvious if I'd hired a personal trainer, that's the first thing they would have told me. Right? It's like you need to strengthen.

Yeah.

But I I do like most people default, like we've been, you know, running and biking since we were kids. It's like it's an easy thing to do.

Yeah.

Uh and so you start with that stuff. Uh and uh and I eventually figured out how to strength train, which by the way, you know is not easy. Like most people, you don't know how much weight to lift, you don't know what exercises to do, what order to do them in, what days to do them in, how I mean it's just it's like a total black art, right? It's it's intimidating too, right? It it is. I I I won't tell you what it was like to walk into the weight room the very first time. And I actually uh I established this habit of going to the gym at like 6 a.m. in the morning, which is a weird thing to do when you're unemployed. Like I had no job. I could have gone at 10 a.m. or 11, but I was showing up at 6 a.m. because it was the only time I'd be at the gym and it was like fairly empty, right? And so I could have the gym all to myself, lower intimidation factor, I could do supersets without fighting over equipment. You know, you normally, you know, you put put something down and like you know, three seconds later, someone's like, hey man, are you using that? Can I have that? Uh and so you know, I was going to the gym super early and I figured out a bunch of stuff. I mean, I'm I'm by no means an expert, uh, but I figured out a bunch of stuff. And and I was sitting on a bench at the gym at like 6 a.m. one morning and I was thinking to myself, okay, great, I I've lost a bunch of weight. Uh, and I'm now like I've hit that goal and I'm happy, but uh, I have got to get a job and go back to like living a normal life. And and how am I gonna like, you know, have a have a career and and work for another startup and and have a family and still keep coming to the gym at 6 a.m. every morning? Like that clearly hadn't worked for me before. And um and I just I wanted a way to to make sure that I was gonna be able to stay healthy and keep doing these things that that had become habits and routines for me. Uh and so sitting in front of this like giant cable crossover machine on a bench, uh, I was thinking, I've got to figure out how to shrink this down and fit it in my home. Uh so that was like the first first kind of bit of inspiration and tonal, but but the entire time I was also just reflecting on how hard it was to strength train, just wading through all the routines you can download on the internet and figuring out which one is the right one for you and figuring out how to figure out a proper form and and figuring out how much weight you should lift. And the number of times you go pick up the dumbbell and then you come back, and then you realize it's the wrong one, you gotta go swap it. And um, and then and then things like burnout sets where I literally like I pick up my you know my 40, my 35, my 30, and I start doing my 40s, and then as soon as I burn out, I put it down and pick up the 35. And so there's there's a place where I also realized like what I was doing was kind of archaic in many ways. Uh and so it's just it's this thing of like having a technology background, like, hey, there's probably a way to shrink this down and modernize it all at the same time. And that's ultimately what led to Tona.

Wow. What a story, man. I mean, you quit your job just to get in shape. That's that's bold. I love it.

Well, I was I was desperate and um and lucky in that I didn't actually have a family yet. Uh I mean, now now I'm married, I don't have any kids yet. But at the time, like, you know, without the responsibilities of you know, of a family, um, and then this like I'm gonna call it an existential threat of of uh of like health on the decline at 35 where like you're still young. Um I had to do something. I really did. It felt it actually felt desperate. So I I just had to do it.

Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, you touched on, you know, what's the uh it's the age-old argument in the fitness community of you know, well, what's the best fat loss, weight loss program? Is it weightlifting? Is it cardio? You know, is it watching your macros? Is it calorie restriction? All these things. It's you know what? It's a combination of of all of it and whatever that person actually does. And I think uh, you know, when you look at why this is so interesting, I talk all the time as a former, you know, gym owner and and working with a lot of facility owners, is that we only see uh, you know, a very, very small percentage of people actually come to a gym, right? Because of many reasons, like, you know, it's intimidating, probably is number one, right? Um they just don't feel comfortable. I I was I've always been in a gym since the age of 12. So it's like it's just a comfortable place for me. But we forget as fitness professionals how uncomfortable it can be to come into those settings and and having something at home where people can, you know, um I guess not have that intimidation factor is is tremendous. I mean, I I don't know the latest statistics, but I did read something recently that only about you know three to five percent of the population actually goes to a gym, right?

And you may know what yeah, from what I know, that's that's about right. Yeah. Um I the the stats I have are are slightly slightly more generous, uh, that about 20% of Americans pay for a gym membership and about 10% actually go. Uh but but the the point is it's it's pretty low, right? Yeah. Uh and uh and kind of like market theory says it's 16% market penetration is about the point where something is considered mainstream. Uh and so it's not it's not actually prevalent enough to be considered mainstream. And so the vast majority of people are actually not working out at gyms or uh they're working out in other places um or they're augmenting what they do with the gym. And so there's there's a lot of folks where like they they exercise, you know, they're they're out doing their bike rides or their runs or their triathlons, and and they go, they go to the gym in order to augment, in order to get specific things done. Uh I think it's seasonal in some cases. Uh the what the worse the weather is, the more likely it is people are working out indoors. So there's there's all these factors.

Yeah. So you, I mean, you've obviously done a lot of research. Is there any other like kind of wow numbers or realizations you've come to in your in your research that you can share with us too?

Uh I think the biggest one that that kind of was an eye-opener for us uh was you know, there was a point where where we would have just naturally assumed that a lot of people didn't didn't value strength training. Uh but in in the research we did, we actually found that the vast majority of people valued strength training. They actually say, Yes, I consider it to be important. Uh but then when you ask them how satisfied they are with their current strength training routine, the level of satisfaction is is very low. It's like under 20%.

Yeah.

Uh and so there was this gap there where I there was a point where I thought, like, hey, are we actually gonna have to go out and educate people about the importance of strength training? And it turned out the answer to that was was no. People know. They just walk by the weight room, look inside, and keep walking because they're intimidated, they don't know what to do, or they've been doing the same routine for five or ten years. Uh like we talk to people all the time who say, Yeah, I I've been doing the same routine since high school or college. A buddy showed me around the weight room back in college, and that's the routine I'm doing. Or the one I often hear is, uh, yeah, I just do a circuit at the gym. And I'm like, what do you mean by that? He's like, Well, I just I just go around from machine to machine, and I'm like, and the order that you follow is just the layout of the gym, right? The facilities manager essentially decided decided your exercise routine for you without you knowing it, uh, probably based on a number of factors that had nothing to do with physiology, right? Yeah, and so like there's this gap. And that was, I think, the thing that shocked me uh is I figure that I uh I had originally assumed that people just defaulted to cardio and didn't know strength was important, and they actually do know. Uh it's just hard and scary.

Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, it's interesting because I, you know, came the gym that I I ran for uh a while, um, you know, it had was very strength training heavy. I mean, we taught a lot of different modalities from you know, um hard style kettlebell to Olympic weightlifting to, you know, even gymnastics training and all of that. And it was, you know, highly technical. And and when I go now, I I'm in Montana and I go to a what we would call what we call like a globo gym, more of a traditional health club. You know, it's got weightlifting platforms, which is amazing. Um, but like I'm like I got this subconscious judging thing in my head, right? So I'll just be sitting in there and I'll I do Olympic weightlifting twice a week. So I'll do a clean and jerk focus, snatch focus, and that's the only time I spend in the gym. I really like the sauna. Uh, that's one of my favorite things. Um but I I'm always eyes wide open because I'm always too curious. I'm like, what are people doing in the gym? You start to see some people doing things, and it's obvious to me that some people are just doing the same things that they saw in an article in like 1996, you know, and but I'm just happy that they're there. You know, I'm happy that they're doing the things and they're putting out the effort. But if they just had a little bit more instruction, you know, they could get so much more fruit from their efforts. And uh I think that's you know, probably where the smart technology that you guys are developing can really help people. So ta talk to me, man. What what is the tech? How did you develop it? What does it do? Give us the give us the goods.

Sure. And and and by the way, it it's it's true what you said that it's good that they're just there. Because I think when you when you asked that question a few minutes ago about um what what is the way to lose weight? Is it is it cardio, is it macros, is it, is it strength training? Uh the first word that popped into my mind was consistency. Right. Just like whatever you just be consistent at it and you you will you will see results. Uh and uh and so you know the the fundamental of what we're doing is remove the friction, give people the convenience, give them what they need in in the most convenient way, right? And so what is the tech? How did we how do we do it? Uh well the first thing we did is we we shrunk down the weight machine and uh uh and made it smart uh with with the same piece of technology, and that's what we call our digital weight system. Uh and so the way to think about this is the way most weight machines work, and the reason they're so big is they rely on big metal plates and gravity to work. Yeah. And so you you you know you're holding a handle attached to a cable, attached to a big series of metal plates, and you're pulling on it, and the plates go up and down, uh, and you're you're pulling on that cable and you're fighting gravity, right? Well, what if when you're pulling that cable instead of fighting gravity, you're fighting electricity? Uh that's what tonal is. Uh and so we use electromagnetics to generate force. The electromagnetics are controlled by a computer doing millions of calculations per second in order to make it feel like you're pulling uh you're pulling on a weight machine, but but in fact you're not. Um and be because of that, uh because a computer can now control the weight uh using electricity instantaneously, uh, we can do things that have never before been possible. Uh we can command the weights, uh, and so we can actually change the weight mid-rep. Uh so if you're you're normally to change the weight, you gotta put the put the stack down, move a pin, right? But imagine you're you're in the middle of a bicep curl, and this computer, which is looking at all the data that's coming off of your body essentially, says, hey, I think they're struggling. Uh let me let me spot them, let me help them out. So we have a spotter you can turn on, and we see you begin to struggle, you know, sharp drop in power output or velocity. Uh, we dial the weight down just a little bit uh kind of until you can get get going again, get moving again. That's our automated spotter function. Uh so it's great if you want to do that burnout set. You know, I'll set the weight to 50 pounds, start doing you know my bicep curls, uh, and then it'll just like keep inching down all the way down to five pounds. And I just did like total burnout set. Um wow. Great way to great way to end a workout. Yeah. Um another thing we can do is is because the system learns your range of motion, uh, we can actually adjust your weight, adjust the weight dynamically depending on whether you're saying in the concentric or the eccentric phase. And so if you want to do a heavy negative eccentric overload, uh, we can literally do that. It's again, it's just another menu option on the screen. And you can say I want 20% eccentric overload, you can be doing a bicep curl, it can be 50 pounds on the way up and then 60 pounds on the way down, and it'll just automatically adjust the weight up and down. Uh, we can emulate chains. Uh and so with with the digital tech, you're able to basically change your weights dynamically and intelligently under computer control. Uh, and and in response to the data that's coming off of it. And so if you if you really think about uh the you know the progression of cardio equipment versus weight equipment, um and cardio equipment, you've always been able to have a computer speed control the speed of a treadmill, you've always been able to have a computer um read how fast you're pedaling on a bike, right? You can, you know, basically two-way telemetry. Uh weights have have always been relatively dominant, big hunks of metal, no digitization. You walk into a gym today, uh, it's pretty rare that you'll see a weight machine with any sort of uh digital readout on it. Uh now we're able to both digitally control and digitally read out what's happening. Uh, and then you couple that with the trend that's already happening with connected fitness, you connect it to the internet, bring in some video content, um, throw in some AI running up in the cloud, uh, and we can guide you through your workout using videos. We can use AI to do weight recommendations for you. So you never have to decide how much weight you should lift, you never have to decide whether it's time for your weight to go up or down. Um, you know, as our AI gets smarter, we'll even be able to do things like figure out how much you slept yesterday and you didn't sleep enough. Maybe we need to dial your weight down just a little bit today on a squat. Uh it gets pretty fun, pretty exciting pretty quickly. Uh, but really all enabled by this really core tech of like digital weights. Uh and and I think like by the time we we go out and talk to our customers about this, I think we're talking about you know, get healthier, lose weight, uh, without having to think because we guide you through everything you need, but but it was really all enabled by this this one thing in the middle. Right. It's cool. I wish you could see it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want one now. Um although I love I love touching the iron. You know what I mean? I'm an old-fashioned barbell kind of guy. Um so I I don't know. I mean, it's it's so interesting. I mean, so I electric magnetic, right? So there must be some obviously electromagnetic field. My first thought is just you know, all the research about you know, dangers of of just the multitude of electromagnetic fields in our lives now. Um, safety concerns? Anything?

Well, let me let me simplify it. Uh electromagnetics, it's the principle it's used to spin electric motors. Okay. Uh and so, you know, when you're driving an electric car around, whether it's a hybrid uh vehicle or pure electric, um, you have a motor generating a lot of force in order to propel the vehicle, and that's basically internally, it's using electromagnetic fields. Uh it's used to levitate trains, it's used to vibrate speakers. Uh and so uh they're they're everywhere in the world, they're prevalent, uh, and they're they're very, very safe. Uh and uh and in essence, um what we our engine is effectively a derivative of a motor. Like we actually, our very first prototype started by using a motor because motors work off a principle of electromagnetics, but uh, but there's a lot of different motors, and different types of motors have different limitations. Uh, and so we we eventually just started kept modifying this thing over and over again iteratively until we had exactly what we needed uh in order to have something that could be commanded to wait to blue um to behave like a weight machine. Uh, but in essence, you know, it's not all that different from the motor in your your electric car.

So, where are you guys right now? Are you out in the market? Is this thing being sold? Uh yeah, how when did you start? How long did it take to develop?

Give it give us a that's where it took years. So uh it was like 2005, March of 2005, uh when I had that that light bulb moment. Okay. Uh and uh uh and I I came home that day and ordered some parts, and it was actually like February even, uh, and and ordered some parts and strapped them to my kitchen kitchen counter. Uh and like three months later, I had the first working prototype of uh of of this digital weight electromagnetic uh system. Uh and uh and from there it was about about a three and a half year journey until we launched. So August 16th was was the first day that we unveiled the company. It's the day that our website went live live. It's the way the day that um press started writing articles about us. Uh it's the day that we launched a showroom in San Francisco uh where people can come in and actually try the equipment. Uh we uh started delivering a few units in September, but really the bulk of our shipments uh started in October. Uh and uh and then we've been expanding our footprints. So uh in November we started shipping to Southern California. Uh and by March we'll be available nationwide.

Awesome. How many units are are out there right now? How many of you sold?

Uh several hundred so far out in the field. Uh we've sold more than that, but a lot of them are uh are in places where we're just not delivering yet. Uh and so all of that backlog will be filled by by March as we kind of build out our delivery and installation network. Wow.

And how much does it cost?

Uh so the hardware itself, uh the core, the base machine is uh $29.95. Uh and then there's an accessory kit, which includes um smart handles, a smart bar, a bench, a foam roller, a tricep rope. Uh and that's uh that's $4.95. And those smart accessories are actually a really, really important part of the uh experience. Uh and so when you when you look at tunnel, it's uh it looks a lot like a traditional cable machine. Uh you have adjustable arms that will go all the way down to the ground, all the way up to the ceiling. So you can do pull downs and um when it's up top, when it's near the bottom, you can do all your leg exercises like squats and deadlifts. Uh but uh the smart handles enable you to do is exercises that you normally wouldn't consider doing with a cable machine. So give you an example, uh, who walks over to a cable crossover today, uh drops the cable all the way to the ground, uh, dials up 100 pounds and starts doing squats. Almost no one. Why? It's really hard to get into position. Uh well, the smart handles they have buttons on them where you can turn the weight on and off. So you can actually cut the weight, uh, get into position first. So pick up this cable. Like if you're gonna say do a velvet squat or a front squat with a bar attached to two cables, you can get into position, you know, tight core, weight in your heels, all the stuff you're trying to say to you, hit a button, it loads you up. You can do your squats. And when you're done, you can hit the button to cut the weight. Or if you're using the bar, uh we have a safety feature where if you ever tilt the bar off horizontal, it'll cut the weight. Uh and so if you've ever seen someone like you know, you see people on a bench at the gym, like with you know, pinned underneath the bar and they're like struggling to like wiggle out from under it. Well, you know, if you just tilt the bar, it's like bailing the weight. Uh we'll immediately know that something's wrong and just dial it down. Uh and so so the smart the smart kits is pretty pretty important. Uh so you know, call it 3500 for the combination of the two. Uh, and then there's some delivery and tax depending on where you are in the in the in the country.

Yeah, yeah. Oh no, it's not bad. I mean, how much does a Peloton cost?

Um so if you're looking at connected bikes, uh, I've seen them kind of in the 2000 range, um, plus also accessory kits and stuff like that. Uh, and then um, you know, most uh cable crossover types of uh pieces of equipment for for your home will cost anywhere from like three to seven or eight thousand dollars, depending on what model you're getting. Uh treadmills uh tend to be you know four thousand and up depending on what you're looking at. Uh some go as high as $13,000. Um there's always kind of the value stuff. I'm sure you can get treadmills for $700 on Amazon. Sure. Uh but you know, if you're talking about kind of like the similar class of equipment, uh you're generally in this in this price range. And the other thing that we did is we have a financing uh program in place where you can spread payments over uh over 24 months. Uh and so for $199 a month plus tax, uh that covers, that actually covers, that's all in. Uh so that covers equipment, uh, delivery, install, accessory kit, and a monthly subscription for all of our video content, all rolled into that one payment, $199 a month plus tax for 24 months. Uh and so we we we actually believe that that's a lot more affordable when you're kind of looking at at broader America. Uh, you know, in in places like San Francisco and New York, uh, you know, their real estate is more expensive as a result. Uh paid grades tend to be a little bit higher in these areas. Uh and so, you know, but you're going for the rest of America, $199 a month, uh, if you're looking at an entire family, um, is considered a lot more reasonable.

Oh, yeah. The the pricing is very justifiable. I think it's, you know, that that's uh I I was expecting much higher. Um, okay. Yeah, I was thinking like this thing's gonna cost someone like 10 grand until you got to scale and then the price will start to drop, which I imagine is probably gonna happen anyway. Um so you you talked here about a category that I haven't quite heard put in these words of uh connected fitness equipment. Right? Describe that category. What does that mean? What are some of the other players in in this area?

Uh well, you mentioned uh you mentioned one. You mentioned Peloton, right? Yep. Uh and so you know, if you uh if you if someone goes and buys a stationary bike and puts it in their home, uh there's a pretty good chance that after six months uh it will be collecting dust. Uh, that you know it'll be used as a coat hanger. And it's kind of this is a joke of hump fitness equipment, right? I just bought a $3,000 coat hanger. Uh and one thing that's been very different uh is as this equipment has become more connected, has been connected to the internet, and you're able to uh push uh motivational and instructional uh video content to it, uh, create communities, leaderboards, uh people tend to stick with it a lot more. Uh and so the the entire industry, um, a lot of players in the industry are not coming out with connected versions of their equipment that basically, you know, take your traditional equipment but stick a big tablet on it and connect it to the internet and and start creating video and community. Uh and it gets people connect, it gets people more motivated, more hooked, they tend to be more consistent, and then they get tend to see better results. And then with better results, they tend to tell their friends, and then their friends buy it. And so and so there's this like virtuous virtuous cycle uh that starts to happen with connected fitness equipment. Uh, and it was like it was a natural progression. I mean, when we when we started connecting in the world of connected fitness, when we were completely analog, it was books and uh paper and pen in your back pocket, and then we started building mobile apps uh when the iPhone came out in the early days, and as mobile apps, you start to collect data about your workout history, and you have to manually enter it, and there was manual compliance. It would tell you what to do. If it told you what to do, or if there was a plan, you had to follow it manually, and like there was no way to know whether or not you actually did what it said. And then we got we got smarter until as things got more intelligent, we started building these trackers that would automatically collect data. Uh, but that was input only, there was no output. Uh, and then we layered on social and community, right? And that's what what a lot of connected fitness equipment has done today. Uh, I think the two things that differentiate tell uh sorry, the two things that differentiate tonal uh from everyone else is out there is that what we're actually leaning into is what we believe to be the next progression of connective fitness, which is intelligence. Umcial and community have become like table stakes. You you need to have those, um, but really going deep into recommendations of what you should do and showing you insights, that's where we're headed with this. Uh, is the first thing. The second thing is uh everything that's happened for the most part with trackers and connected fitness equipment is in the world of cardio. Uh and uh no one's doing much in strength training except us. Uh and that's that's what's really exciting. And that's really all enabled by the fact that we built this digital resistance engine. Uh and and the goal of it at the end of the day is the same thing that every fitness professional has. It's just get people to work out more often, give them the guidance that they need, take away the friction, make it more convenient, uh, give people success. That's really that's really what we care about at the end of the day. That's our mission. Right. Everything else is cool, but it's just it's just a means to get there.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's I mean, you guys, you're right. And you know, one of the things that really interests me about um, you know, doing this interview with you guys was that it is the first thing I've seen in strength training. You know, I've had um, you know, Omri from from V Trainer, um, a couple other people who are, you know, Wexer, people who are doing it in studios, things like that, where it's you know, it's mixtures of VR and AI. Um, and it's all really interesting, but it seems to all be focused around cardio and aerobic. Um, but strength training um in my mind is is priority. And uh, you know, I can see too, uh obviously as the internet of things continues to grow, like machines like this being able to incorporate with you know the fridge, right? Like, or you know, I think the whole thing is just gonna become one big, like uh you wake up and then you just be told what to do uh throughout the day. And uh yeah, it's it's god. So let's let's do let's do this, man. Let's take a couple steps back out of the weeds here and let's look at this whole big picture thing. So um, because this is the stuff that um gets me in trouble at dinner parties, uh, because my wife is always like, oh God, here he goes again. Um the if I'm listening, I'm a personal trainer. I'm like, fuck, this is you know, this is not good, right? Um but it's obvious that this is gonna happen. And I, you know, you don't have to defend your tech. It's you know, you're not, I know you guys aren't you guys are doing good, but there's certain uh occupations in our in our societies and communities that tech is just going to overcome, right? And it's just gonna come about. So if I'm the smart uh personal trainer, the smart fitness professional, I'm starting to think, okay, how do I work with this? Right? How do I um align myself with this? Because this stuff's coming. Like tech is not stopping. It's gonna, you know, you know how it goes. I mean, we talk about the singularity if we want to, but it's it's going, you know, it's a it's a hockey stick, right? And it's growing really, really fast. And people who are starting to see where this whole thing is going are the ones that ultimately are gonna hopefully benefit and and uh prosper from it. So you mentioned things like uh video content, right? Um, where are the opportunities for fitness professionals um as tech like yours and other ones evolve? What what do we need to be doing, you know, to stay up to date?

Uh that's a great question. Uh before I answer it, I'd like to actually take an even further step back. Please. Uh because um, yes, this stuff is coming, but it's not uh I don't think it's as dire uh for your industry as um as as it sounds. Uh and this is this is why. So I I've done my research, right? And uh I believe that in the United States there are about uh enough personal trainers right now, or personal training sessions done every year, um, such that about uh 0.3% of the US population could see a trainer twice a week. Right. In other words, the the number of personal trainers that are actually out there uh is minuscule relative to the population and the need and the demand for it. Um that's that's the first kind of like baseline I'd like to set.

The second baseline is that um personal trainers are are experts, um but they're also psychologists, psychiatrists, right?

Um I'm I'm serious.

No, I'm I'm laughing because Dude, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're unlike therapists for sure.

Yeah, exactly. They're unlicensed therapists, and it's it's all about you know, how is this gonna make your life better? Uh, you know, whether it's gonna help you with your marriage or whether it's just talking about what it takes to get you to motivate yourself enough to actually show up every single day, right? Yeah, yeah. And and the way we the way we get you to show up every day uh is is we try and remove as much friction as possible, right? So we make it super convenient, number one. And then number two is um we try and help you form habits, right? Um classic reward, you know, reward structure. Um, hey, your weight just went up. Congratulations, right? You feel good. Um, that's how habits are built. But when you're talking about personal trainers, uh, there's a human element there uh that you can't replace. Um yes, our systems are use AI to personalize something, uh, but there's there's a level of of AI, you know, we call it generalized intelligence, generalized human intelligence. You just can't, you can't get technology won't get there for many, many years. Right. Uh so uh there's that human touch, human element that I I wouldn't discount. And so when you ask the question of like, what is the future? Uh I think the real question I have for all the trainers who are out there is uh today there aren't enough of you. How can you use technology to reach and touch even more people? Right? Uh and um what is your place to work with these platforms in order to reach and touch more people? Uh and so here's an example of something we we might have people who are might be in a four-week program, uh, but they might actually want to get on the phone and talk to a trainer and get some advice, or talk to the phone and uh ask ask their their nutrition questions, or go deeper into like, hey, really, really help me like work with me until I can get my squat form really good. Like we'll try and teach people squats using videos and try and give them a little bit of feedback. Uh but you know, an expert standing there with you next to you uh is is just it's a it's a higher level, right? Uh and uh and so the question is are you trying to help? You know, we're trying to help as many people as possible, but we can't go as deep as having a really, really personalized personal trainer truly standing next to you. Uh but the difference is most people don't have the time, don't have the money to be able to afford that really, really kind of personalized service. Uh having to schedule time with a personal trainer, having to get to the gym, and then having to pay for every single session uh is is harder. And so uh and so like the model that is more scalable is well give equipment, give guidance, uh, give data and telemetry to more people, uh, but then have the personal trainers go in and and really impact where it matters. Right.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great perspective, man. I I and I agree. Uh and I think, you know, if if I'm gonna sound an alarm, which I would rather be the guy sounding the alarm so the people are listening and being like, oh shh, shit, is he like, is he, is he right? Um, I'd rather have people talking about it um than not thinking about it, right? Because there's just so much opportunity as well. And you know, what I see is like obviously I think the you know, the typical global gym trainer who um counts reps, uh, drinks his coffee and checks his phone uh or her phone during sessions, they're in trouble, right? They're not offering the service, right? They're not offering the service. Those days are are soon to be gone. Um, but the relationship, right? That that's ultimately what people want is you're right, you know, it's it's the more, you know, I talk about time, we're moving into a relationship-based economy. Everything else can be taken care of, right? But that human-to-human, you know, forget B2B, forget B2C, it's human to human now. And you know, as much as you can take advantage of those relationships and really take time to get to know people, understand what they truly want, um, what success looks like for them, that AI can't do that yet, you know, maybe never. But that's that's the that's the key. And uh, you know, I I bank my business on it. Um, everybody I coach, I tell them, you know, take the time, you know, meet outside of the gym, right? Maybe have a cup of coffee with these people, see their element, see their life, meet their family. Um, that's that's ultimately what is going to make a big difference for the industry. Um But I do want to ask you about the video content. So who makes the video content?

Is that trainers or uh we we do, but uh actually I I just I want to say that um you are absolutely right that that there is there's an alarm, there is an alarm that should be sounding. Yeah. Uh but it's not that these jobs are gonna go, it's that they have to they're gonna have to shift. Yes. Uh and the mentality is like, where are you strong? You're right, it's the human connection. Um and AI can never replace humans, but AI can do some things better than humans. Uh, I bet you that there's gonna come a point where uh our AI engine will be better at recommending weights uh than a personal trainer or human being can be, right? Uh be better at doing weight recommendations, deciding exactly when to dial weight up and down. Like you can do that stuff better. Uh but the human, that human connection piece, right? That's the balance. Right. Yeah. Um now the way we do our videos uh is we have a studio here in San Francisco and uh and we're in there filming every day. Uh and this content is being released on a weekly basis, and and we're releasing workouts and programs. So workouts are one day, single-day workouts, and programs go multiple weeks. Uh so it might be like a four or six-week program oriented around a certain goal with different exercises uh each day. Uh and uh and we just we cast our trainers. Uh the difference is uh we didn't go we didn't go look for celebrities uh that we could teach how to do fitness. We looked for fitness professionals that we thought could eventually become celebrities. Uh and so we we literally went through Yelp uh and just called every five-star every five-star rated trainer and asked them to come in and audition. Uh looking for people who have interesting backgrounds, interesting stories, uh, and uh and are are good at camera on camera with a lot of potential to get even better. And we've ended up with some cool trainers. We've ended up with folks who like were athletes, have trained athletes, have PhDs, um, have unique perspectives. We have one coach who's a body positive coach, uh, who's really out to like almost challenge the industry a little bit. Uh she'll never talk about weight loss, she'll talk about you know all all the other, you know, all the other terms that we use, but but really like starting from a place of confidence and feeling good about yourself and knowing what you want, uh, but not like succumbing to the cultural pressure that we're all under to just get as skinny as possible. Yeah. You know, and and so I I think like that's that's really how we've we've gone about it. And uh and the videos are a mixture of of them, you know, talking to you, telling you stories, motivating you, pushing you, um, and a lot of just real instruction, right? Like when you're teaching someone how to do a squat, there's like 20 things you gotta tell them, you know, constantly reminding them, you know, weight in your heels, tight core, you know, um sit back into that seat, you know, all the stuff that they're saying. Um, and so it's a it's a balance of those two things to really get people to learn how to do exercises properly, um, but also get them to feel confident in themselves so that they can they can feel motivated and push through the hard parts of the programs. Um it's when I'm like doing my workout in the morning before I come to the office that I want to use at home now. And uh, and when you're you know just at that point where you're like you just want to give up, and they're like, you should be pretty tired by now, but you can do it, trust me. Uh it really makes a difference. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's really interesting. I mean, I I go back to when I was doing a lot of uh personal training or group training, and um, you know, you can't, there's so many factors that go into like how much a person should lift in a given day. You know, you can't, everyone wants to follow these these linear progressions, right? That's not life. I mean, the first question, you know, any trainer should ask their client is like, How are you feeling today? You know, what what's going on in your life, right? Did you sleep well last night? Stress, right? Because that's gonna dictate what the workout's gonna look like that day. You could have a beautifully laid out plan, but life and all the factors, the physiology of stress and all the things that come into play. And I think that's what's really cool is about when you start looking at all the tech, right? Um, the biometrics available, genetics, um, curables, wearables, you know, obviously AI, all that stuff is just gonna give this really, really customized and individualized approach to fitness, but the missing piece will still always be the human-to-human relationship. Um, at least for the foreseeable future.

You're absolutely right. And it and it goes even deeper because even when you look at you know physiology research, uh, how many large-scale studies tracking people strength training over a 12-month period across age, gender, um, you know, ethnicity, uh there, right? Uh, and even like when you start layering on genetics, right? If you're taking genetic data, uh, the the data today we have is the data we have today is is pretty narrow. Uh it's like the cohorts are not very diverse. And so the idea that you can take the data today and personalize it is limited, but as you have more and more of this tech uh collecting anonymized um data and handing it to researchers, they'll be able to actually push the science forward. Right. So it's a lot like what we do in medicine today, but just let's bring that to the world of physiology and fitness. Yeah. Right.

Yeah, yeah, cool. So, you know, as you look forward, is there any other technology you see this merging with? Are you guys looking to integrate anything else? I'm sure you are. I mean, you have to be, right? What do you what do you with what you can tell us? What's what does the future look like?

Well, a few things. So one is uh with over-the-air updates, we're constantly pushing software that just makes the system smarter. Yep. Uh and so I'll tell you, I think today our algorithms are good and I think they'll be great uh in several months, and and they'll just get more and more amazing over time. Uh and it's just like as it gets smarter and more intelligent. So those over-the-air updates I think help help a lot. Uh a big thing that's coming uh is our mobile app. Uh and the mobile app is is really about about doing two things. Uh, one is about helping keep people motivated, uh, and then uh two is the stuff you were talking about, uh knowing how much you slept last night so that we can make better weight recommendations for you. Uh it becomes the interface point uh into things like Apple Health and uh Android, uh, Apple Health Get and Android Health so that we can really get in there and start collaborating uh with all the other fitness tech that's in the world. It becomes a good exchange point for us.

Yeah, right on, man. Yeah. So so Ali, where where do people find out more? Where do they go?

Uh so you go to tonal.com, ton a l.com. Uh there's a video and a bunch of information. Uh you can always email customer care, uh, which is support at tonal.com or hello at tonal.com. Uh, and then follow us on uh Instagram or at tonal um Twitter at Tonal uh Facebook uh Facebook.com slash tonal strong uh and just watch uh watch us roll out nationwide in the next few months. It's gonna be exciting.

Yeah, man, that is exciting. And uh I think it's great. I love it. I I really uh, you know, once again, this is just more fodder for uh holiday time because as a recording, it's it's December 21st. So, you know, all my family is gonna hear me talk about this kind of stuff because they have no choice. Um, and uh it's just really cool. I I appreciate coming on educating us too. Um, you're obviously a very intelligent man. You put in the time um of understanding and and really trying to find a great solution to a problem that you felt first, but you knew you weren't the only one uh in the world that had that problem. And uh it's cool, man. It's just all of around really cool. So I appreciate your time. Thank you. It's been so wonderful to be here today. Yeah, yeah. All right, man. Take care. We'll talk to you soon. For sure. Have a good one. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us. And when we put a lot of work into these episodes uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for the show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness MarketingAlliance.com.