Performance Based Marketing - Tommy Hackenbruck

The first year it was every phone conversation I had with it with a gym owner was like, okay, like that you're gonna be blown away. You know, what I want you to do is like once there's too many leads and you feel like you're overwhelmed, you call me and we'll turn off the marketing because it's gonna happen fast. Yeah, I was like warning people like this is gonna be more than you can handle. Yeah. Um nowadays it's like, God, it's we're working our asses off to get people signed up, but we're still doing it and we're still having success. But uh it's you know, it's not as easy as it used to be.

Hey fitness fans, welcome back to the Future of Fitness podcast and interview series. This is your host, Eric Balzone, and this is episode number 94. I get to talk to Tommy Hackenbrook. What a treat. So if you are in the world of CrossFit, or at least have been for over a year, uh you probably know who Tommy is. You should know who Tommy is. If not, Google him. Uh Tommy Hackenbrook, CrossFit, or just Tommy Hackenbrook would probably work. Uh, he's a high-level CrossFitter. Um he's been in the game for so long in CrossFit. He's, you know, more on the legendary status. You probably hate me saying that because he's so humble, but it's true. You know, he uh he's he's a big deal in CrossFit Media. Uh he's a great athlete, he's always performed well. Um Hacks Pack, uh, I believe won the CrossFit games on the team division uh two years. I have to I should fact check that, but I'm not going to because I just said it anyway. Uh but he he's he's competed at a high level and he's famous in the CrossFit world. Uh and he's also a gym owner, and he's been through some ups and downs. He talks about the story of that. Um he's extremely transparent, um, authentic, and humble. And that's always every time I get to talk to Tommy, that's generally uh the feeling that I get. I'm like, this guy has every reason to be cocky. He really does, you know, but he's most not. He's humble and he generally cares um for his clients, his family, and you know, he's not afraid to say that um, you know, he gets scared at times as a business owner, because we all do. And uh I think that's really cool. Um and it just kind of, you know, I think it draws people towards Tommy. Uh, and that's why he's a great spokesperson um for brands and also the new challenge. So that's a big part of this conversation as well, is performance-based marketing. Uh, two, three, maybe even four years ago, uh, the new challenge came on the scene with CrossFit affiliates, and it just blew our minds, right, of how powerful digital marketing can be and how many leads can be driven to uh a gym, which I thought my market was tapped. Uh I think I talk about it in here. I thought my market was tapped as far as leads. What was I wrong? You know, they turn on the tap with this thing and boom, just started coming in. And that really was a precipice for many of the programs you see out there today for gym owners, for six-speak challenge formats, things like that. Um, I believe they're one of the leaders in devising that and uh and sending it out into the world. So yeah, really interesting. We also talk about CrossFit. Uh, you know, CrossFit is changing courses. Greg Glassman is back on the scene, and uh, you know, he's going after what his original vision was was to change the status of health uh in the world. And it's cool, you know, we talked a little bit about that, where the sport is going. Uh, very interesting um points of view from Tommy as well. So, yeah, really, there's just so much to talk about. It's it's a great interview, it's a little bit longer than we normally do, but there is just so much going on. Um, you gotta let it roll sometimes, right? And uh yeah, before I get into that, I want to just plug the fitness accelerator. You know, we're we're growing the community now just at the right speed. So, what is it? It's an online community that is predicated on leveraging, leveraging each other's relationships, networks, and knowledge bases to just quickly accelerate business. And, you know, it's a hard thing to explain uh until people get in it, and then I start making connections for them that they never would have had before. And uh things start happening. Big projects, you guys, big projects. This is not uh one of those places where you go in, you're like, oh, maybe I'll expect a 10% return. We're like, no, we want a 10x. That's the goal, you know, just by leveraging each other's networks and knowledge bases. That's it. So if you want to learn more, uh fitness accelerator, I'm sorry, fitnessprofessionalonline.com forward slash fit accelerator, and you can get more information. There's an application, and uh, you know, we are pretty stringent on who we let in. So uh take your time and go over the application well. Again, it is fitnessprofessionalonline.com forward slash fit accelerator. And uh people like Tommy Hackenbrook are in the group, you know, just having a conversation with him this morning, um you know, as a date of this uh intro, November 9th, about um getting people involved in his project. So I don't want to talk too much about it, but a lot of cool stuff going on. Okay, so without further ado, let's get into this episode number 94 with Tommy Hackenbrook. Enjoy. It's a great one. All right, Tommy Hackenbrook, welcome to the show, man. Thanks, Eric. Great to be here. Yeah, yeah, it's uh it's it's really interesting. I've been uh, as I told you before we started recording that, I've been, you know, thinking about my intentions for this interview for all morning, really since I woke up at 5 45. And one of those interesting people where there's so many things to to talk about uh with you because you know, there's Tommy the athlete, right? There's Tommy the businessman, there's Tommy the you know the gym owner and entrepreneur online. Uh there's just a lot of things that that you've done in, you've done a lot of things. So I guess since it's you know, date of recording is August 29, 2018. I would actually like to get your opinion on uh the biggest announcements that have come through CrossFit with the changing of the games and the direction of of what Greg Glassman is is up to now. Um I've always uh I've always contemplated like what I would want like CrossFit as as you know the sport to look like. Um but I'm curious because you're in it, man. I mean you you've been competing in CrossFit at a very high level for you know right when it in its inception, so you've seen a lot of evolution of it. So yeah, man, what's your take on on the announcements and where do you think it's all it's all going?

Um yeah, that's a great one to start with. I uh I I don't know. I mean, I I don't know what I don't think they've announced like a whole lot of clarity as as far as like details. So unless I miss something. Um No, I don't think so. Okay, I'm gonna assume that I know about as much as as you do and the general public. Um so here's like big picture take. Um I remember when CrossFit announced a partnership with Reebok, and there were lots of people out there. When I started and I first went to the games, it was everyone had the mindset that you know it it could be you, you know, like anyone can make it the games. It's like uh Ed McMahon and Publishers Clearinghouse back in the day where they show up at your door with this big huge check. Um, it was like, you know, you could be that lucky person, you know, because they were just random people, more or less random people. You know, you learn about their background, you're like, oh, that's why that person's so fit.

Right.

But for the most part, random people were like qualifying for the games and just you know, training in their affiliate. And they announced a partnership with Reebok, and people freaked out and they're like, it's over, this is the end of CrossFit, like they've sold out. Um, and a lot of that was just people who are disappointed that they're starting to see you know that window that they had shrink. Yeah. Um, and I think that's been a lot of people's knee-jerk reaction this time around. Um, so it's not gonna change a whole lot. Um, look at any high-level sport, any professional sport. Uh, you have your cream of the crop, and you know, across the board, uh, one of my favorite uh not one of my favorite, there's there's a lot of, but but some really good insight from my college coach, uh football coach Ergon Meyer, was that you know every year he'd tell us, he'd say there's about four or five teams in the country that can that can be the best uh every year. You know, they have the top 25, but there's 20 of those teams are kind of pretenders. They're they're great teams, but they don't have that that it factor that separates them. Um and and if you look at you know the top 25 of your and how it shakes out, there's usually that's why the BCS was such a mess. And I'm just using college football as reference now, but that's why people hated the BCS, is because it took one, it took two teams, and there was usually uh somewhere between two to three other teams that should have been in that conversation. Um so anyway, what I'm getting at is like there's usually four or five elite college football teams. There's usually maybe six or seven elite, you know, next level NFL teams. Um and there's only ever gonna be uh, you know, maybe 10 to 15, maybe fewer, maybe five to ten elite CrossFit athletes. Uh you're starting to see that at the games, even with the current qualifying as it is. Um so I think the people who have the most to be disappointed out are gonna be uh Americans, you know, people who live in the United States because it's it's greatly reduced your chances. Uh but don't forget there's athletes from all over Europe that have been in the United States qualifying in our regionals, you know, and as and and the reason there are so many Americans in the CrossFit games isn't because we're fitter, it's because CrossFit started in the United States. So as it goes internationally, there's gonna be more and more great high-level international athletes. There's never gonna be 162 men and women who have a chance of winning the game. So um for a lot of these athletes, it'll just be kind of like a novelty. They'll be representing their country. They don't have a you know cold chance in hell of winning the CrossFit games. Um, and it might seem unfair that they get a go to the CrossFit games ahead of some people who are fitter. That's that's a great argument that lots of people can make. Look at the Olympics, though, you know?

Yeah.

And so with the intention, I think CrossFit, the higher-ups, my guess is their intention is to globalize the sport even more. They think that's what's good for CrossFit, they think that's what's good for affiliates, and they think that's what's good for people. You know, as fast food gets globalized, as um, you know, processed food gets globalized as people get fatter and more unhealthy. Um you know, the the safeguards that you have to combat that are, you know, diet and exercise. And so they're trying to kind of grow that movement. You know, that's my take, is they're trying to grow the health, proper health, you know, proper diet and exercise as fast as we're growing the sedentary lifestyle with processed food.

Right, right. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, my bait, I I see it from um you know, a business standpoint, it just makes a lot of sense for cross. I mean, they're bleeding money with a lot of these regional events. Oh, yeah. And what I really liked about it, my my favorite thing, and of course, no one can get in Greg Glassman's head, nor do I think anybody would want to, but I I uh I see when you know he stated that he wants to have 150,000 affiliates, and um, which is you know, right now I think there's 15,000 roughly, so that's a 10x of of how many affiliates they want worldwide. That's that's a global domination move, right? Um, and but I think there's a lot of great intention where I think supporting the affiliates, um, you know, as a former gym owner, you you will own one or two gyms now. Uh one right now. One right now. Yeah, it's going really well. Good, yeah, one's enough. I'll talk about that later. And uh I think it's really cool. I I hope you know it sounds like there's gonna be more focus on supporting the affiliates and um and growing it from the grassroots level, which really is what got it off the ground and what got me into it was really exciting. But you know, there was this divergence between CrossFit for Health and Fitness and CrossFit as a sport that took place I don't know, 2012-ish, probably when Reebok came on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly. I I agree with that.

Yeah, so I I hope uh what this means is that the affiliates get the support because they're doing a lot of work, man. Um they really are, and I think that's uh a missing link that that seemed to got lost get lost. Uh because who trains these athletes? You know, who puts up, you know, CrossFit athletes aren't easy to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Um, let's be honest, I'm probably gonna get some hate mail on this. But it's true, you know, they're not the easiest and to train them and give them space to do things that um they need to do in order to excel in their sport um and the emotional support that they need and all these things, you know, it's it can be draining on an affiliate and a coach to do that. And I think having the support, you know, will will be will be warmly welcome. So yeah, that's that's what I hope.

Yeah, there's just too few CrossFit athletes out there and too many regular people that um have a need, you know, for training and for instruction, and that's what affiliates are for. Um and it's just a it's a it's an evolution, it makes sense to me. Um, you know, you'll have little mini schools, little mini camps, uh little, you know, concentrated areas of cross-it athletes and coaches and support staff. Um you know, that's a different business model in and of itself, and it's really irrelevant to the greater affiliate model and affiliate mission and what they're about. Um and then, you know, the open and and it's it's not like people shouldn't be competing in their affiliate and they shouldn't be trying to do those workouts. And and you know, I I support all levels of fitness in my affiliate, and I support all levels of competitiveness to a you know to the extent that we can provide a good service. We can't service high-level cross-it athletes anymore. Uh, we can service just about everybody else. Um so if we have high-level cross-it athletes, that's fine, but they're you know, they're gonna stagnate, you know, that they're gonna run out of a room and they're gonna have to find a bigger pond to swim around in if they want to become a big fish.

Yeah, yeah, really interesting. So, you know, let's let's talk about your uh your journey as an affiliate owner. Um what came first? Was it was it Tommy as a gym owner or Tommy as an athlete in CrossFit? What was the first first piece?

Um simultaneous. Okay. Uh I'll give you the quick rundown. I was I was confident about running a business because I because I knew nothing. Because I was an idiot who had no clue, like everybody else. Um I'd been building houses for three years and and I got a contractor's license, and I was starting to run my own crew and and get my own work. So I that was my first three years out of college. Um so I had that kind of entrepreneurial bug. Um my wife at the time was training people in small group training, uh, Czech Institute background, the the guy who owned that facility, more corrective exercise. So um there was there was Tommy the contractor, and then you know, my ex-wife was was a trainer. Um I stepped in across a gym. I I didn't like going to gyms, I actually despised them because of the culture. Um and I stepped in across a gym, I was like, fuck, this is it. Like this is a team atmosphere, these people are immediately my friends, and not in a fake way, but it's just that we suffered together and it meant something. Um so literally the one workout, and I was sold. I was like, this is what fitness needs, like this is a future. Uh it's 2009. And so somehow I just stumbled upon the right affiliate where the the affiliate owner had been to the 2008 CrossFit Games. He took 111th, he he he signed up and showed up and computer. Um 111th had like 130 people. So he was kind of talking about otherwise I would have had no clue what the games was. Um and so six months later I I qualified through online qualifier. Um, but three months after I started, within that first three months, I decided I was gonna open a gym. Um so there were just a whole lot of pieces that fell into place. Um I I fell in love with CrossFit. My wife was in fitness. Um I was looking to get out of construction because I as much as I love building houses and I I dearly miss it, um, I was looking at the guys around me and I didn't want to be drinking a 12-pack of beer every day after work and having a bad back and bad knees. I I just didn't I didn't want to end up where they were headed. Um as much as I loved and respected them, you know, we had a great time, uh, you know, plenty of vulgar language, you know, job site stuff. Um you know, I I can I could I I didn't mind that, any aspect of that, but uh we had had our first kid, he was a few months old, and I was kind of looking for a change. Um, you know, something better for the family long term. So all those things came together. I opened affiliate in June, I competed in a crossing games the next month and um and and just went from there.

Yeah. Yeah, and you've um, you know, it's interesting because you know, I we walked different but similar paths, right? I I didn't like I I played water polo, I played a team sport as well um through college and even club after and gyms. I just couldn't get into the gym scene until I found CrossFit because it was like this, you know, I went to start at Lilane Fitness in San Francisco and it was just this the shared suffering, right? It was just so crazy. Like we're at that point we were so dumb in CrossFit. We're like, well, how hard can we make it? Like, my hands are bleeding, awesome, right? Let's do it again. Let's do 100 more pull-ups. Um and uh yeah, it was it was such a that that that team, and I found that you know the people who really latched onto it had been some kind of team sport athlete. They really, really loved it.

And really adopters, it was just everything was like a dick measuring contest. It was like it was like a hardcore CrossFitter. So it was like the people we chase out of our gym nowadays.

Yeah, yeah. I remember at one point uh you know, when we were training and we had we were doing some workout bench press, and we're like, well, what happens if we fail in the bench press? And like, well, you gotta figure it out, man. He does. So we're like, I'm like trying to roll the bar, like, how idiot, you know, how dumb can we be? Um, but here I am. I'm still walking and talking. Um yeah, and and I also after college, I got through into uh various sales and marketing careers, right? And I remember sitting at a sales, a national sales conference and sitting there and looking around the room and being like, okay, you know, as people are taking smoke breaks, you know, uh they're just over-traveled, overstressed, you know, they're all making good money. I was like, I can't do this. This ain't for me, man. I gotta, I gotta figure something else out.

Um so you see where it takes you. I mean, that's good insight, I think, on both our parts is like to be able to see where that's headed, even though like in that day when you're seeing those people, you're like, yeah, I'm still healthy. Um, you know, I take care of my body. Yeah. But just having the foresight to know, like, hey, even if that's not where I want to end up, that's probably where I'm gonna end up if I don't change my path.

Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty strong, I mean, those cultures are strong, right? I mean, it's just uh they'll they'll they'll overwhelm you. So you started Jim, and I know um I've heard your story um because it was part of the New Year's challenge, you know, is is you know, part of the the marketing because everyone loves a good story. It's excellent. You know, tell us one more time, man, because you you went out, you saw success, challenges, found an answer, you know, expanded all kinds. You didn't learn all these massive business lessons along the way.

Yeah. All the wrong ones. Um I I've still to this day the best advice I've I think I've been able to give people, and I try not to like burst people's bubbles, you know, they're they're gonna do what they're gonna do. But um one person, one affiliate. Um I've I've talked to very few people who I think have successfully gone past one affiliate and had two or three or four. Um and even then, from a purely financial standpoint, a lot of times they're just as well off with one as they they are with four. They just have more problems now and they coach less. And and and a lot of a lot of people I've talked to, you know, behind the scenes, um, it hasn't really fulfilled them. So um I've been really pretty pretty strong supporter of of trying to encourage people to just have one gym. If you're gonna do two, it should be uh more or less like a uh partnership, you know, where one person runs one and one person runs the next, um, and they each kind of have ownership. And then if you're gonna do that, it it can definitely work and there is some mutual benefits that way. But also it's like, why don't you just own one? You know, if you if you really if you're gonna have two or three, but you're gonna have two or three different owners, is it really that much better than than having one? So I think that's the question people should think about, you know, if if they're considering opening up more locations. Um, if you're gonna do it, first of all, you need to leave your gym for an entire year and come back and it's gotta be doing just as good as when when you left. Uh if you can't do that, then you probably shouldn't have a second one. Um that's that's like another litmus test. But um, yeah, so I I started out from almost nothing, I borrowed uh 26 grand for my dad. Um then I got in financial trouble, sold my truck for 5,000. Um and then, you know, and we're in this just shithole, 900 square feet, the floor was slanted. So if you set a bar down, it rolled to the front. So we had little pieces of rubber, little stoppers that we put in front of our bars and set them down so they didn't all roll to the front of the gym. Yeah. Um, it was just bad on it. You know, I I didn't really know how to start up. Um, and I didn't have nearly enough funding. So we managed to find a better location after about six months and somehow got out of the lease. Uh it helped that the sheer rock has fallen off the ceiling onto the floor because of water damage. Um so I I got out of that and basically I was cross took off. Yeah, I was a little early in 2009. So the first couple years were were kind of tough. Like I took second at the games and then ninth, and no one had a fucking clue who I was, like, especially in my community. Yeah. And it, you know, if they did know who I was, it was because I played. College football in Salt Lake City that you know had nothing to do with CrossFit. So you know, even to this day, we don't really get a whole lot of leverage out of the CrossFit games in our local community. Hold on, my computer's guy. Yeah, yeah. Just plugging it in. So there's a there's a real myth there that doing well at the games helps an affiliate. Um it it it does. We get more drop-ins, that's about it.

Right.

Um but yeah, expanded to three gyms, and then um, yeah, that kind of happened all at once. That was we're looking for a second location because we're way too crowded. And I thought the logical answer was to find a second place, you know, expand the community, yeah um, offer more to our clients, offer more opportunity for my staff uh who I really cared deeply about. I I saw them as family. Everything was, you know, at that one gym, everything was tight, everything was good, and so I had the best of intentions. Um in hindsight, you know, every everything I did in uh having multiple gyms didn't help. The that family community of coaches and stuff, um, people are gonna follow. This is more like a cynical viewpoint, right? Like I'm not a total cynic, but like those people who are family, they're gonna do what's best for them. You know, a couple of the trainers, um I got a divorce, so one of them had played college soccer with my ex-wife, and so she left right away. Um, another girl had you know had had a baby and was still pretty solid after that. She was great before, still really solid after, had her second baby, and uh her family needed her, you know, more more than she needed the gym. Right. So so life happens and people move on. Yeah, it was kind of naive. Um, so a whole bunch of stuff happened. You know, the divorce wasn't good. It was uh it was very amicable um up front, but I know uh there's a there's kind of an agenda there, and and man, I could I could go down that bitter like divorce you know person path really easily. I'm not gonna do that on this podcast.

Yeah, whatever you want.

Whatever you want, man. No, it just it ended up not being good for the community, even though the ex and I uh wanted what was best for the gym. The success of the gym absolutely affected both of our ability to move on. Um, she was getting bought out, so you know, I I think she wanted to have people feel like I was the wrong one or something. Whereas my mind I was like, this is the best thing for both of us. I didn't care, you know, I didn't care what people thought. Like, I want people to be like, oh, good for you guys. Um but I think she wanted kind of that sympathy a little bit. So some stuff got said and spread around, I think was a little bit toxic. Um it didn't destroy our community, but it it it hurt it a little bit.

Yeah.

Um and I was very tight-lipped about everything all the way through. Um just because I I didn't really care. Um I uh, you know, we we were both unhappy in that marriage. It had been nine years of being married, and and we both have been much happier since. You know, I I feel like that's a great thing. Um people should celebrate. Um but it divorces a weird thing. Everyone, oh I'm so sorry, you know, and um everyone wants to pick a side, everyone wants that there's gotta be a reason, you know, who cheated, who, you know, what happened. Um, because usually that's the case. You know, we when we hear something, we don't get enough details, our human curiosity kicks in and we want to know. Um, you know, there I think there's a very good reason we got divorced, and it makes a lot of sense, and most people now understand why that happened, and and I think they can look back and uh be like, oh, I get it. Um but at that time we had we had just opened a second, third location within a year, and and all that happened. So anyway, um I didn't have the staff to run three gyms. I was running around like a chicken with my head cut off, uh, still competing, and and basically, like I was kind of these this first gym, our lease was $4,000 a month. Here's you know, some hard, solid, you know, numbers, business and advice.

Yeah.

First uh lease, about $4,000 a month. That's been good location, profitable. Uh we've been able to make it work. We've been able to always pay our trainers, uh, buy new equipment. Second and third space, one of them was $8,000 a month, the other one was $9,000 a month. They're twice the size. Um, beautiful locations, really nice equipment. Uh all the success that we had had prior, like all that money got dumped into these things. Like, I'm it when things were great. I never paid myself. I was always um trying to do what was best for the gym. And so um, man, these huge leases just crushed me because again, another hard lesson I learned was $15,000 in overhead is a little bit high for a CrossFit gym. You know, you got you want to keep it under $15. And with $8,000 to $9,000 in a grant, that doesn't leave you a whole hell of a lot of money to pay a staff and pay trainers and everything as far as overhead. You know, revenue-wise, it's hard. I almost every gym owner I talk to, and I talked to a ton of gym owners too. I can't like probably 90% of them are be literally between 80 to 100 clients at any given point in time. It's it's fairly easy to get up to that number. It's really hard to get past it, and it's really hard to sustain it if you do. Um so you know, build your business model accordingly. You know, granted that I'm let's just I mean be conservative. I'm only gonna have 80 clients, how do I make that work? How much rent can I afford? What do I have to charge? Um so with a small boutique gym, I I know there's people who do better and and have more clients and keep them happy and do a really good job of it. Um I've just noticed it's it's very difficult. Um so yeah, so how I got involved with the New Year's challenge was basically um gyms were struggling. You know, the even the the my main gym had gone downhill, and then another one was doing a little bit better, and and then you know, and then they kind of flipped, and like one would be doing good, one wouldn't. Uh a trainer would leave one, and then the the momentum would just crash. Um yeah, I've had some great trainers over the years, really good people. And the worst thing about a good trainer is that if and when they leave, um, it's devastating to the to the community. You know, they have a following, and they all left on good terms. Um you know, it wasn't always perfect, it wasn't always you know the way I envisioned it. Uh, I was sad to see them go, you know, as far as my end, um, some were just ready to move on. But even leaving on good terms, it was it was really difficult for the for the gym and the community. So um, you know, things were crazy, and that's when I got introduced to the you know the challenge, and that's a a marketing company that uh came along at the right time because from 2011-12, like you're talking about when things kind of blew up, um, you know, with rebuck coming on board, the cross of games blowing up, um basically people were just coming through the door like crazy. Uh so for three years, you know, anyone who owned affiliate during that time, like marketing, what marketing? Like, word of mouth, baby. Just put your flag down in the ground and people are gonna show up. Yeah, yeah. If you're a great coach, people will flock, right? That was the uh everybody thought they were you know a genius that they you know figured out we don't need marketing, what the hell? Yeah. And um, and then you know CrossFit's branding got confused as well, and that's what you were alluding to earlier with the games blowing up. Uh people were thinking CrossFit was a CrossFit game. So at a certain point, you kind of hit this peak, and and I swear, like at least in Utah, I'm sure every almost everywhere else, affiliates probably tripled between 2011 and 14. They probably doubled between 14 and 15. Yeah. And that was a tipping point. And it's like, okay, you have this perfect saturation of affiliates, and then you just double it. And boom, it just it blew up. No one was coming through the door. Um, I was having a really hard time. I I mean, when I expanded, I was so naive. I was like, at the rate we're growing, we had 20 people going through a two-week on-ramp, but all the time. We had we took over an extra like auxiliary space just to run a constant on-ramp of new people.

Yeah.

It's like at this rate, by the time I opened a new gym, I literally, this is why I opened two new gyms. I only wanted to open one more. But one of them was taking so long, the project, it was uh it was a rebuild. One of them was taking so long that I opened the third one. That's how stupid this is. I opened my third gym because I said, Well, this project's you know taking too long, and it's it's going over budget, and so I'll just open a second gym, and that second gym is going to be profitable right away because at the rate I'm growing, it's gonna be full, and that'll help me pay for the losses of this other one. So I opened a third gym to pay for the what I was losing on the second gym when it was going way over budget, and it took 12 months longer than it was supposed to take. So here I'm sitting on three huge leases, and um and the staff you know was decimated. I I lost uh lost two key players in the original coaching staff, my ex-wife and her friend. Um kept some good key people, you know, but uh it was just a bad time. So with the challenge, I was a marketing company and and they got you know lifeblood coming back through the doors. Uh the first step was just to get people in, and it was crazy. Signed up a ton of people, um, very quickly realized I wasn't retaining nearly as many as I needed to. You know, so it's like, okay, this is a band-aid to stop the bleeding, yeah, but now we have to get better. Um and then again, it was just running into more problems because it's like, how do I develop a staff and make it better when I don't have I don't have the structure? You know, I have three gyms and I'm I'm still, you know, so I I was able over the last three years uh to cut two of those gyms loose. Um one of them I just bought out a lease. Um actually used money from a a business startup that I did after the divorce, and I sold my share of it and bought out a lease. Um that was lucky. And then the other one I I finally closed down because it just wasn't, it was just would not get past that hump. Uh, I felt like I was doing a disservice to the clients. And so I uh that was now leads to a different guy who's opening up a gym. He's gonna affiliate. He's uh he's has a little different niche. He's training adaptive athletes and and uh vets and wounded warriors, uh, working with the VA locally. So I kind of talked with him beforehand. I really liked where he was going and what he his mission was, and so um that was like the main reason I felt okay closing my gym. Um was you know, it was gonna be put to better use, I felt like. Um, and not only that, but now I could focus on just the one which is now doing great. I have two amazing managers, and you know, by all of us focusing only on that one place, I I felt like we could do the most good and and do justice to our clients, you know, who they deserve that.

Yeah, yeah, man. And what I what I really appreciate uh you about you, Tommy, is that you're very transparent with the struggles you've had, you know, very authentic with that. And I think you know, you look at I'm I'm just gonna make mass generalizations, but a lot of CrossFit affiliates, there's a lot of bravado. You know, there's a lot of um, you know, the uh the vanity numbers, how many members do you have, right? Um but a lot of them are but then you get them in a in a in a private room, they're like, dude, I'm struggling. Like, how did you do it for so long? You know, and uh it's just it's you're right. I I mean you and I both saw like this, this it was so easy. I mean, you know, back in 2010, 2011, like, you know, you just you just put through the name on the door, right? And then it was the early adopters started coming in, and I I didn't I didn't even think I didn't even have to think about marketing um until a certain point. It was before the new challenge, I think I kind of did something similar without knowing it, but I called it uh I realized, okay, what were the biggest challenges that what were the biggest objections people had? It was CrossFit's dangerous, CrossFit's too hard, CrossFit's expensive, right? I'm like, well, what if I just you know did some kind of four to six week course, right? And we just marketed in, dropped the rate down, and got people in and got a micro. So we called it zombie apocalypse training. And uh flyers, and I was like flying all around Santa Barbara. It was before like Facebook ads was a thing. And uh, you know what it worked, and I don't know to this day, I don't know why I stopped. I think we actually got to a point of like, okay, we were at 240 members or something like that. And we're like, yeah, we're just gonna stop. We're full. And uh, you know, I thought I would just go um, you know, play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays, and that was gonna be the rest of my life. And then, you know, then two more gyms opened up, right? And then uh all these challenges started coming into play, and my my membership started dropping, and I didn't know what to do about it. And I so that's when I heard, I think I talked to you. I was like, you know, or no, I talked to uh Cooper. And he's like, dude, Eric, you should check out this new challenge thing. So he got me on the phone with you or Ken. Um, and then I did it, and I was just blown away. My eyes just opened. I'm like, holy shit, there's this world of digital marketing that I didn't even know existed, and we're just scratching the surface. And I thank you guys so much in New U, because it really opened my eyes as to how because most cross CrossFit G Motors didn't know how to market because we didn't have to, right? Right up front. But then it was so eye-opening to see the power of digital marketing. Of course, the New Challenge was um the first time I did it, I think I got 220 leads, right, coming in, and I filled up 50 people um in this challenge, and it was just yeah. So now I think people are starting to figure out, I mean, what there's so many things. I mean, even though I know you're working on you know next evolutions of New Year's Challenge and what that looks like. And I mean, if you have anything to share with us, I would love to because it's it it really uh you know, I thank you guys so much for opening my eyes into what we can work with.

You got 261 leads, you signed up 39 people, yeah. Yeah first time it was like too easy, and it was, I mean, literally for the first year, there was um my my wife quit her job to be a rep because because we use the challenge, I was super grateful. Um, you know, thank James, like like I owed him everything, you know. I was I was literally like, okay, how do I exit this business? You know, do I file for bankruptcy or do I not? Like, is there is there a non-bankruptcy way to exit this business? That was what I was sitting on. Yeah, um, it was it was just nuts. But uh yeah, with the first year, it was every phone conversation I had with it with a gym owner. It was like, okay, like that you're gonna be blown away. You know, what I want you to do is like once there's too many leads and you feel like you're overwhelmed, you call me and we'll turn off the marketing because it's gonna happen fast. Yeah, I was like warning people like this is gonna be more than you can handle. Yeah. Um nowadays it's like, God, it's we're working our asses off to get people signed up, but we're still doing it and we're still having success. But uh it's not as easy as it used to be. Um, but that's you know, it's business. You know, James, the the guy who started this company is a brilliant marketer, and he came up with something just very unique, and you know, for whatever reason, it's just a you know perfect ad copy at the perfect time, and and um you know, we just try to keep it effective ever since um and improve it. You know, the latest uh question you asked, um we're we're I'm really stoked right now. Um we're kind of evaluating, you know, because we're in growth mode for a couple years. Um it was just nuts, you know, just trying to keep up with with the demand of of gyms that needed help and making sure we could do a good job and do them a solid and and you know come through. Uh we're performance-based marketing, so we spend the money on ads. If people don't sign up and don't join the program, we lose money. And and we lose money left and right. You know, it happens frequently on campaigns. So, but but we also are good enough for what we do that it's like uh it's a calculator. It's a it's a business model that nobody uses. Um, you won't find a marketing company out there that does that walks in and says, hey, I'm gonna spend my money, I'm gonna do your marketing, I'm gonna do sales for you, and get people to sign up and collect the money, and then I'm gonna allow you to coach clients, and I'm gonna pay you money to coach the clients. Um it just doesn't happen. You know, most marketing, it's like, okay, here's what I can do for you. I have a proven track record, here's some people I've worked with, here's some testimonials, this is my fee. Um, you know, and it and that's how the conversation starts out. So performance-based marketing is a is a weird thing. It's um you know, it's a lot of pressure, but one thing we've not done a good job of is during the challenge, you know, teach people how to run it. And it's not necessarily something we want to get too far into, but the more the the retention's everything, right? So um, I mean, if if our company, if if the new challenge got 20 people signed up for a gym, and we pay that gym owner a thousand dollars, and for six weeks he coaches those 20 people, he or she. And then after that six weeks, none of them stick around. Now, $1,000 for six weeks of dealing with 20 new clients who need a lot of attention, a lot of time, probably not worth it. Uh may maybe worth it, you know, just just to try it out, but they're probably not gonna want to do it again. Right. Um so if they can keep five people, you know, are those those five people probably gonna go out and tell their friends how great this gym is. So those five might turn in ten. That that's probably worth it. You know, if they can keep ten people, yeah, now that's really worth it, you know? Yeah. That's fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars a month every month as long as those people stick around.

Yeah.

Um so retention is everything, and we've realized if there's any if there's anything we can do better to help with retention, we want to. So we started developing better communications with people throughout the six weeks, sending them you know, encouragement emails and you know, just some some pro tips, you know, how to hydrate, what to do when you're really sore, why are you really sore, just explaining these things because these people are on such a beginner level, yeah. Uh it's easy to forget how scary that is. And so we're trying to address that on our end. Uh we send out emails like week four and week five, encouraging those people to talk to the gym owner about a membership, you know, just planting those seeds. So they're like, oh yeah, I didn't think about that. Like maybe I should think about you know what I do after the six weeks is over. Um and then our nutrition has been we have great meal plans that are really effective. Almost nobody follows them. Um so with nutrition, we're looking for more effective ways, simpler tools, you know, to try and get a little more out of it. Because if people can have a little more success with the nutrition aspect of it, their results are gonna be better, which in turn is gonna lead to retention. Um, you know, the general public, they want results. If they get results, they're gonna stick around. Yeah, you know. Um, so we've uh we're actually I've had a couple phone calls with the CEO of uh RP Nutrition, Renaissance Periodization.

Yeah.

And I really like their stuff. It's uh they they have a good variety for different types of uh clients, and their basic stuff is just very, very simple and um and it and it's effective. You know, so simple and effective is is two things that I think will help a lot. Um so we're working on ways to introduce that um into what we're doing, you know, and try and give people more nutrition support. And again, hopefully in turn that leads to retention. So if we if we can help retain people without being on the ground, uh you know, the gyms we work with are great gyms, and the trainers are passionate and and the product is good. You know, we we really we're not perfect, but we do, I do my research, I do my homework, our team does our homework. We don't want to work with a gym who's just gonna throw people into classes, you know. Like we also have surveys that go out to people, how is your experience? So we get we get great feedback about the gyms. Like very, very rarely do we get someone who says they don't feel like they were, you know, really given good training or good product. Uh, super rare. And if that does happen, we talk to the gym owner about trying to figure out what happened. So yeah, most of most of what we're doing is um you know just trying to make the experience better, trying to help retain people. Um it's hard. There's only so much you can do via email and and uh you know sending people video links and whatnot uh to be there hands-on, like work with the people, that's what really counts.

Yeah.

So um that that's like that's what I'm really excited about. The the nutrition stuff is it's a simple enough template that I think it's a tool that gym owners can embrace as well, and it can make them better at their nutrition presentation. Uh because that's one area I'm weak. Like, don't talk to me about nutrition. You talk to me about cross-it games, don't talk to me about nutrition. I've had kids since I started doing the crossway games, and I can blame anything on kids, and if all the parents out there Completely understand. You know, it's like our hall pass. We can get away with a lot.

Yeah.

So when it comes to nutrition, I'm horrible. I'm horrible about mentoring clients on nutrition. I'm great at coaching and motivating them. But if I can take this template and be like, here's your damn macros, you eat your damn macros. If you're not willing to eat your macros, this is what you're going to do. You're going to eat potatoes. You can eat as much as you want. If you're too cool to count macros or to pay attention to what's going into your body, and you're asking me what else you can do. I get this all the time. People are like, well, I I can't count myself. I'm this person. I can't count my macros. What else can I do, you know, to get fit and to eat right? Eat potatoes for a week. You can eat as much as you want, but all you can eat is potatoes. Yeah. And that that's I I don't have anything else. There's, you know, like everybody wants an easier way, a simpler way. I'm like, well, I can I don't I guess you could order food and have it like pre-prepped for you. There's companies that do that. It's fucking expensive.

It is.

But you can do that, and and they'll give you your menu and lay it out for the day. So there's that. But if you want something, no one wants to spend the money though. So if you don't want to spend the money and you want to be easier and you don't have to pay attention to what's going on in your body, the potato diet is the the only thing I've come up with. But it works. I thought about it. I thought about it. I tried for half a day.

Um fuck us. Uh you know, so you know what's funny about the the fitness industry too is that we all know, you know, if there's one thing we could get our clients to comply with, um, and then follow it up with a personal guarantee, it would be nutrition, right? If we can just get our clients, because everyone wants to get in, they want to look better, feel better, stave off disease. Um and the one thing, but we always start with with a movement assessment and then we get them working out. But really, what we should just be is just this, you know, nutritional place with workouts in the back once you're ready. You know, that would actually be doing, but nobody wants that. Nobody wants that conversation, right? Uh our clients don't want it. It's not fun for coaches necessarily to go straight to nutrition because you know what happens in nutrition? A whole lot of emotions happens. Yeah. There's a lot of psychology to it and it's challenging. It's much easier just to, you know, uh put someone into um, you know, A1, A2, B1, B2, and uh and call it a day. Uh but nutrition, um, I'm glad you guys are focusing on that. I'm curious too, are you guys still doing like um what I really enjoy is when you guys expand it to like a 50 plus challenge, right? Or yeah. You guys did still have a lot of variations on that.

Yeah, yeah, that's something we could always uh do it better on, you know, you know, do a better job with. Um, you know, we've been having requests for for kids, marketing, kids programs for sure two plus years now. Um but it's I I guess you know it's not that easy. Yeah. What James created, you know, with the New Year's challenge was very difficult. And so to be able to replicate that with kids, it's probably gonna be a completely different approach. And my, you know, who knows what that would be. Um lots of gyms can't service that anyway, but with the masters, uh, that just made sense. So we have masters marketing, we go you know, either 50 plus or 40 plus. Um, and it it's been great because that's another population, just like the in the very beginning, right? The general population was thinking crossfit's scary and it it's it's too intimidating. Um so the challenge did is it basically opened their eyes to no, this is a program that is uh for beginners and it's it's you know geared toward people who are just starting out and we're gonna build you up over six weeks. Um so you're seeing the same thing with people over 50. They're really not they there are a few programs that cater to them, but most of anything that's geared toward you know older folks is like silver sneakers. So you go from like having cross it, which people think is you know 20s and 30s, you know, really fit people, and then like, okay, I'm having a hard time standing up out of my chair, and and there's a lot in between there. Um so yeah, the the masters marketing has been good, especially in certain communities, kill it in Florida, um, you know, d different uh any uh any bigger, denser population area, the masters does really well. Um but with you know, I'm not the marketing guy, but I think I could safely say like the the the more people you have, you know, the more densely packed your areas, you can get more specific. Um, you know, if you're in a more rural area, city and town of like 10,000 people, um, you can't segment down that market too much, you know, or else your audience is like 500 people, and um it's it's tough. So uh yeah, at a certain point with marketing, it's like a numbers game. Um you don't want to segment down too much, but um you know what what we are continuing to be good with doing is finding people and match them up with the gyms. You know, we find people who want a specific service, and then we have these gyms that offer this service, and you know, we get them together. Um so I mean that's really that's what our main job is.

Yeah. And are you guys working with any other gyms or facilities outside of CrossFit at this point?

Yeah, yeah. We uh we have jujitsu schools, um, but lot lots of different martial arts, a lot of Krama Ga, um, you know, different martial arts studios. Uh we've done a little bit with yoga, and um I I think there's been a few that did okay, but it's it's just a little bit different. Again, like like the thing with kids, you know, it's it's different enough with yoga that I just don't think it works. Um there's a way with yoga to kill it and to find that audience and to get them through your door, but it's not uh with a six-week challenge, or at least you know, from our experience, it hasn't been. Um but yeah, kickboxing, like like any high-intense training environment, um, you know, it's it's pretty pretty effective across the board, you know. So uh what a lot of martial arts schools do is they kind of do a six-week, almost like baseline introduction to martial arts along with the fitness. Um, you know, so they don't put it through six weeks of like just you know, advanced jujitsu class where you're rolling and and whatnot, um, but they mix in you know half the classes like boot camp style workouts where where you're getting some really good physical activity in, and then the other half is is just kind of getting their feet wet into you know the martial arts system. Um and you know, because that's a a journey um, you know, with martial arts. And and really, you know, cross it, you can make that argument as well. Um, but it's not lined out the same way. I really like the belt system. My wife and I have been talking about going to that with our gym. Um it'd be a it'd be a big commitment, you know, so I don't we're we're not quite ready to tackle that yet. Um, but literally going to like, you know, instead of belts, I don't want to completely steal it, um, but like give people headbands or t-shirts, but like literally have like a different colored um tier system, you know, where you have to log a specific amount of hours at the gym plus meet specific performance benchmarks in order to advance. Um so we we've kind of dabbled in that um or bounced it around. I I know there's gyms who have done a belt type system. Um I don't I haven't seen any that have done it that really mirrors a martial arts school. I there may be. Um I I haven't been exposed to that yet. Um I'm pretty curious about though.

Yeah, I think that's a great uh that's a great evolution of CrossFit style gyms, too, is doing the belt system. I considered it strongly. I looked at a couple different gyms that we're doing, and I can't remember their names now, but I started laying out a whole plan of what that looks like. And just to me, the thought of like, you know, being an adult who, you know, most people are working in their grind and their job, but to have something to come away from that's not uh work-related, and then like having that that getting that felt, that first belt or whatever we're gonna call it, that first level, and having a ceremony for people who do it, and then getting to the next one, like what a just a great sense of purpose and accomplishment within their lives that a lot of people just don't well, that's why people come to CrossFit so many times, is they just this real hard shit, right? That gives them this break from the grind of their life, and that's that seems to be what attracts a lot of people to it. Um so yeah, I would I'd be curious if you do the belt system, I would love to hear how it goes because I think it's a great idea.

Yeah, just I I it there's just too many parallels, you know. Like the there's a and there has to be that meaning and a purpose with martial arts. If you talk to anyone who's achieved a black belt, that shapes them and molds them for the rest of their life. You know, they they every every single black belt is gonna say that, you know, and some more than others, but it's it's definitely gonna shape them, mold them. And that's no different. Anybody I know who's done CrossFit and stuck with it for more than three years will just say the same exact thing about CrossFit. Um so it's already there. Uh it's just not mapped out. What's nice about martial arts is it's mapped out in advance. You you you join the gym, you you start, and not everybody sticks it out, but you start and you can see it visually. You you can see that roadmap um and you kind of know, oh, that's that's my goal, that's where I want to get. Yeah. Um, that's one of the downsides of a six-week challenge. That's one of the downsides of when people walk through the door, their roadmap in their mind is I'm gonna lose 20 pounds. I'm just gonna finish six weeks. And once I lose 20 pounds, and once I finish this six weeks, I'm there, I've I've done it.

Yeah.

Um, and so, you know, I I really I want to have something like a carrot for people to just so they can wrap their head around it, and then from there they can make the decision if they want to do it or not. But when they walk in my gym and I don't there's nothing presented there in front of them, then they're there for six weeks and and there's no alternative. So why would they stay?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. So you you had mentioned before Tyne that you or um you're working with a new program, a CRM for affiliates or for gym owners.

What's yeah, just yeah, customer retention management system, um, just you know, does billing, cla class check-ins, um, manages your schedule, does everything that every other system does, um, except for workout tracking. They uh they're that's in limbo. Um, but the company's been around operating. I've been on the system for over four years. Um I was like one of the first beta clients, and you know, I've never missed a payment. It makes running the gym super easy. Um it was designed with uh, you know, keeping it, it was basically designed with the intention of what was out there on the market was like uh pretty cumbersome. It was that you know they were made for yogas and then tried to adapt them to boxes, and um, there's a lot of messy stuff and a lot of extra stuff that you just didn't need. So I I think like the you know the features that that I like is they have a pretty transparent. Um it's a low monthly fee, it's uh it's a lower merchant fee than anything else that's out there. Uh they have a pretty tight relationship with uh glacier payments out of actually out of whitefish, Montana. Um good people up there. Yeah. So they're not trying to skim off the top of your business, you know, they just charge it a fair like low rate. Um it does everything you possibly need to do to manage a business. Um and it's it was built kind of in modules. So like they do belt tracking for jujitsu schools, um, but that doesn't show up on my gym dashboard. So what shows up on mine is only everything that's relevant to my cross at gym. Uh with a martial arts studio, the the dashboard, the interface looks differently and it and it works a little bit differently. You know, they they use the things that you need and they don't use things. So it's very user-friendly. Um but yeah, I'm just we're we're just launching that. My wife's doing that full time now. Um working, she's very detail-oriented. Um, she's what, you know, uh we very first started the New Year Challenge. We were more or less sales reps and um used to manage, we had to build out the gym campaigns, and um, we used to have a uh cork board in our living room that had the start date, you know, and uh on a uh post-it card, and then just a list of every gym that was starting. But we'd have like 10 to 20 gyms some weeks, and so we had like this huge board of like every gym that was running when they were starting ads, when they're finishing ads, um, so we could constantly check in and she kept all that organized and managed all that. Um, you know, while I was still coaching and running my gym, um she was doing that stuff. So um, yeah, she she's taking this project on full time, but um yeah, it's it's good. It's um we use uh sugar water for workout tracking. Um and I like that company. I feel like they've uh you know, them and be on the whiteboard have both really taken workout tracking to another level um as far as the user experience. And and that's uh I'm not a tech guy, but I understand well I've seen enough bad workout tracking programs that uh that they've really done a great job. They've really tackled that that animal. So um we use that combination at my gym, and monthly we're under 200 bucks out of pocket, um, you know, and and our merchant fee is under 3% uh flat. Like like everyone's like, oh, my merchant fee is two and a half. I'm like, okay, what's your total revenue? Like, okay, what did you pay? And and what did they take out of your bank account and merchant fees? Divide that number into that number, they're like, oh, that's three and a half percent. I was at 4.7% with my body. Almost 5% of my gross revenues were just going away in fees every month. And and that was, I think they've gotten better come down in rates. That was back in the beginning. My body was they were they were doing us CrossFit gyms bad back in the day.

Yeah, that's uh I went uh I went mine body to Zen Planner to um oh god, what was another one? I I went through five and then I end up having Zen Planner. And you know the pain in the ass each time you have to change all that. It's it's it's brutal.

So also Gym Rocket will uh will migrate everybody. That's that's probably the best selling feature. It's uh the customer service team is they'll literally scrub your data um and and pull lists of all the clients, and then they'll do an analysis and a breakdown. So um one thing I realized with the reporting for my gym, you know, um it's a funny thing, like Chris at Two Brain Business says, uh, what's your arm? What's your average revenue per member? No one has a fucking clue, and they're like, oh God, like I need to figure this out. And then they go and they sit down, they start running reports, yeah, and they come up with it. They don't have they can't even figure it out because you know what? They got these punch passes, they got these comp memberships. They're like, well, I have 500 members. You're like, oh, you're only making a thousand dollars or ten thousand dollars a month. Like, what are you charging people? 50 bucks? Right. Like, no, I charge 110 bucks. Well, you don't have 500 members. Oh, those are old members.

Like, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, the recording's awful.

Yeah, and it's uh and and a lot of it's not the system, a lot of it's the gym owners don't know how to set up properly in the first place. So that's what Gym Rocket does is they uh they scrub data and then they help you on the onboarding process, they help you set it up, and they they do a hands-on onboarding process. Um takes less than a week um to and to completely switch everyone over, and then they send every single person an email to update their card. That's one thing you can't do, is you can't take card info because yeah, um, these systems actually don't store card info, they get like these tokens. Um, it's a it's like a privacy and a protected protection thing. So um, and which is good, you know, you'll never be compromised that way, um, you know, having having a recurring payment on file. So um, yeah, the onboarding process is super easy, but god, yeah, I did it three times. So if you did it five times, like that's the biggest headache, pull your hair out. Like, how many clients am I gonna lose because of this?

Yeah, how much billing am I gonna lose every month? And you know, uh, I would always say, hey, uh, you know, we're gonna get this done in two weeks, but it would be two months.

Yeah, and and that's a big reason um the gym market doesn't have workout tracking, is they didn't want to go down that road and on offer something that they couldn't offer an excellent product on. Yeah, because there's too many times. I mean, I've I've fallen victim to it. Too many of us gym owners have switched systems with these high, high hopes, you know, and your you promise the the moon and the stars, and then what you end up getting doesn't work. Like I when I switched from Mind Body to Zen Planner, I did the same thing too. When I switched to Zen Planner, I did it for two primary reasons. One was because they had an app, and two is because they had workout tracking. And then the third reason was I was gonna save money on my merchant fees. Right. So their their mobile app and their workout tracking didn't they were awful. They they didn't even actually work. And they I believe they do now, so I'm not just I'm not just trying to bash Zen Planner. Um products come a long way. That was like five years ago. Yeah. Um, but I switched because those two features that they said they had and they didn't have them. So um that's one thing I think you know the Jim Rocket founders and and software engineers, like they've been really careful about making sure they don't overpromise because uh the audience they're gonna be dealing with isn't gonna have the patience for that. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. They've been through the ringer too many times. Uh well, dude, Tommy, it's it's uh it's awesome to to get you on here and hear your story and everything you're up to. I mean, it's um yeah, it's just such an evolution, and uh it's it's I'm glad you're you're still out there helping affiliates and doing the work you're doing.

So yeah, I'm glad you're podcasting, man. What's that? I'm glad you're podcasting and wife and and loving life. It's it's great to catch up and see see you doing good things.

Yeah, man, it's pretty fun. I I I do like where I'm at, and uh I'm glad I'm so glad I spent that eight, nine years uh, you know, running affiliate and running a gym and being in the trenches because it's just allowed me to really appreciate um you know challenges and and the rewards that are that are in that and help people do it better.

So um that's uh yeah that's one thing I've learned between between own a gym and let's go back to the beginning, let's end on this. Um, you know, you're talking about that like scarcity mindset, and and you get sheltered off and you get clothes off, and you know, you see the people around you and you're threatened by them and this new gym and everything. Um we do that in life too. And like probably the most valuable lesson I learned from from gym ownership, like from my divorce, uh is I I just don't have I I don't have any patience. I can't wrap my head around you know holding on to bitterness and people who are you know bitter and resentful and vindictive. And and um it's just it's so draining to live that way. And so one of my one of the things I've tried to do personally, try to really make it a point of doing is catch myself if if I'm getting jealous or or if I feel um you know that bitterness creeping in. And I always try to celebrate other people's success. Um, nothing bothers me more than to see someone cut down another person's success.

Yeah.

Um and you see it all the time in social media. You know, it's like it's like, well, what have you done? Like you're going around cutting down everybody else. Like, what have you done? Like, what if you went around celebrating success? Like, there's nothing that makes me happier than when a close friend of mine is successful. I don't, I don't look at them and see, like, like when my best friend, you know, and his wife go on a vacation together and they don't have any kids, I got four kids. You know, the first thought creeps out of my mind is like, oh damn, must be nice, you know, having all these kids. Screw that. Like, dude, I'm so proud of you. I'm so glad that you and your wife could have spend this time together, like cherish it, have a blast. Yeah. Um, you know, like I'm pumped for you. Yeah. So that's one thing I've tried to be better about personally, and and that I've learned through you know, through some of those low points, is um there's just not enough time. You know, our life is too short for any of that bullshit, man. And I just I love seeing other people happy. Yeah.

Yeah, man. Awesome. That's like the perfect ending. Couldn't have gotten better. Awesome. Tommy, thank you for coming on, man. It's it's been an absolute pleasure. I know you and I will be talking real soon. Yeah, you bet. Thank you, Eric. It's great talking with you. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Tommy Hackenbrook. Hey Fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I asked you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us. And when we put a lot of work into these episodes uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness Marketing Alliance.com