Hidden Profits & Secret Sauce - Aernout Leezenberg

I'm the the oldest one in my business and I'm the the only one in my business that is not uh qualified by Google or Facebook or Bing. Uh I don't even have a clue how to really make a Facebook ad really in the back office. I have no clue. But I know what to look for, and I know how psychology works, and I know what text to use, I know what triggers to use. And it seems that that is a skill too. So, okay.

Hey Finis fans, welcome back to the future of Finis podcast and interview series. This is your host, Eric Balzone, and this is episode number 102 with Arnott Lindenberg. What a treat. This is our first release of 2019, and what a better guy to have on. So Arnott is one of the uh founders of possibly the largest digital marketing agency for gym and facility owners in Europe. And he's been doing this for a long time. I think he said 17 years, and he's had his fair share of failure. But now business is good. You know why? Because he offers an amazing service and helps a lot of people help a lot of people. And uh he's funny, he's kind, uh it's a great interview, and I hope you enjoy as much as I do. I always enjoy talking to Arnot. And uh before I get into the let you get into the interview here, I just want to talk about the accelerator again because um it's a fitness accelerator. So if you haven't heard of it yet, you probably don't listen to my podcasts, uh, which is fine, whatever, but you're hearing it now. And it is an online community of fitness entrepreneurs, and we are looking to do business differently in 2019. So what if we collaborated more? What if we shared ideas more? What if we leverage each other's networks more? Wouldn't that be a great world? What if we all did it together? What if we elevated the fitness industry through better networks? That's what it's all about. We're only accepting 150 people this year. Uh we expect to be capped probably by March or April. And we're looking for high performers. So people who are really in it to win it and who have a mindset of abundance. So it's an equal part incubator, mastermind group, networking group with the emphasis on networking group. And you can find out more at fitnessprofessionalonline.com forward slash fit accelerator. So again, that's fitnessprofessionalonline.com forward slash fit accelerator. There's an application process. Once you fill out the application, I will review it and you'll be hearing from me one way or the other. And if it is accepted, you will get a two-week trial. No risk to you, no risk to us either. So with that being said, enjoy the episode number 102 with Arnold Lesenberg of Hidden Profits Marketing out of Amsterdam. Enjoy the show. And here we go.

Yes, well, thank you. You spelled my name right this time.

Yeah, I did. Yeah. There's gonna be, don't worry, we got a good 45 to 60 minutes of opportunities for me to screw up your name. So um if anyone at home is listening, they want to start keeping track of of how many times I baffle that one, uh, go for it. So I I've had um, you know, give an introduction for you, which I'll do again, uh, you know, when I re re-record the the intros, but um you're a guy who's been in the fitness industry, around the fitness industry for quite some time. You're you're traveled, you currently live, you know, in uh Amsterdam Beach area, very interesting person. And uh, you know, I think out here in in the western um, you know, or just the United States and and North America, uh, people don't know maybe as much as they should about you as they they don't know as much as they should uh about you and what you do over there. So um let's do this if you can. Let's kick it off with just a biography. Tell us, you know, kind of your background, how how you got to where you are now.

Yeah, cool, cool. Really well, thank you, Air Malzoni. I hope I I pronounced your name.

That's actually the correct pronunciation.

Yeah, we bastardized it when we came to the States. Malzoni, yeah, yeah. Always pronounce your name with uh with the hands, using the hands. Um well in the Netherlands, we're not like talking with our hands, it's more like um just being as you be and don't be too very much shouting out who you are and how terrific. Um that's that's that's our background in the Netherlands. So that's maybe one of the reasons why you don't hear that much of the Netherlands. We're only a small country, um, but one thing is that we speak our languages, and our country has an origin of traders. We're like the Chinese of the West. So we go everywhere to just to survive, to have a meaningful existence in our little country, and um that's something I think I inherited somehow. And uh just just to get back to where I come from, um, I did business school in Amsterdam, which is sort of college. And at the same time, I was in track and field, I was a certified track and field coach just in my spare time, uh, about 15 kilos ago. Um, I I was uh quite a fast sprinter, and um I combined the two, and together with a partner, we started our own gym, which was in 1991. So, in the in the dark ages of the fitness industry, um, really way ahead of any wave there. And just we just did something that we really liked, just serving people and helping people with our vision of how fitness for the regular person should be. And we did it for a couple of years. Uh, we sold the gym, we got a real good opportunity to sell there, did a few other steps in commercial direction, and back in 2001, I thought uh I want to do something that I can really put my passion in, and it is a combination of sports, fitness setting uh and marketing. And I just followed my passion there and I bumped into a guy that invented um the power plate. Maybe you've heard of it, maybe the the viewers have heard of it of it. It's uh whole body vibration technique, training technique in the Dutch invention. It's a Dutch company, and it was later on it was sold to um uh big and American investors. I worked there with him, and I I really saw there the potential of fitness club owners that said, Hey, okay, great, we have this machine here, we have some promotion around it. What's next? And my first question was, uh cool, what what is your what does your marketing plan say? Uh we don't have any. Well, the first step, if you don't have a plan or a goal, where how do you know how well you do? And then I realized it's all small mom and pop shops, really. It's it's all small companies, most of them. What do they need? And I thought, okay, they need some marketing support. They don't, they're not specialists. Um, I think if you're if your quality is on the level of, let's say, coaching and training and maybe building a business, that doesn't mean that marketing per se, or maybe even sales, is your potential uh speciality or expertise. I decided I'll be that external marketing manager. That's what I first thought. When I when I launched my business, hidden profits marketing, on October 6th, 2004. So now uh just well over uh 14 years of of age, my business is. And actually, what I did is be the external marketing manager for about 10 clubs, fitness clubs, just in the Netherlands. I thought I was thinking big, but really not. I was just thinking, I have a vision of marketing. How can I serve the fitness industry, the the entrepreneurs in the in the fitness industry? And it worked. I never, up till now in Europe, we never ever advertised, ever. All we did was one thing, and that is maybe the core of whatever we do. We share knowledge, we share our insights, we share our vision. Yes, some opinions as well. Um, that may be something uh something like uh politics in the United States share. Uh, but it's just a vision that we see that we have about how marketing should be running and working for the fitness owner, and instead of the other way around, that the fitness club owner should run its marketing itself. That's just a vision. Other people will probably think uh in a different way that they should be doing all the marketing, etc. I think it should be expertise at this moment, especially lots of stuff is changing in in today's society, but especially communications tools. Uh Facebook, whatever Facebook, well, 10 years ago, no, 14 years ago, they started in 2004 as well, by the way. So that is that is interesting, just like my business. They did a bit a bit better. We'll see. We'll see.

Yeah, we'll see 10 years from now, right?

Up till now, up till now, they do at least. Um, the the the for instance, Facebook, uh, the way you could post something on Facebook and the whole world saw it, and now when you put something online, three, two, three, five percent of even your just your followers will see that that message. Yeah, it totally changed. So, in of all communication activities, digital communication, online communication, mobile communication is changing the fastest. And so you almost need to be a rocket scientist, really, to be able to data analyze, to to work, um, to create campaigns, add campaigns, etc., that really work and that really perform. And that's that's actually what we do with our business. Um we we help fitness clubs in this current day and age generate a constant ongoing, 24-7 ongoing stream or dripping stream of leads and and and members and people that say, Hey, I want to know more. But they do it digital, they do it on their smartphone, etc. They're not calling you, they're not walking in. No, they do it in the way that's the communication way of yeah, of this age, which is on their mobile and digital. And that's what we do, and we keep it running. We we don't care, Eric. We really don't care about what social media uh or social media platform or what tool is being used, whether it's Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn or anything else, we don't care. As long as we can find where are the people that are open to the message of our clients, and it's working quite okay so far.

Yeah, yeah, it's um, you know, so I when I sold my gym about 14 months ago, okay. Uh we started my business partner and I started a digital marketing agency. And I thought I was like, you know, we'll we'll we'll have this and then I'll do my business coaching and I'll run my mastermind groups and I'll do these things. And I'm like, you know, I'll just have an agency on the side. It's way more involved than that. It's not a side project. Like everything you said, like everything we would do, we would start running a campaign, then Facebook would change an algorithm. Or and we were just like, God, like I did not see that coming. It's it's it's really like there's a lot of marketing agencies out there, let's be honest, right? There's a lot. And uh many of them, you know, having put a foot in in that that arena for a while, it's hard to keep clients as an agency, number one, because it's very cutthroat. You know, my wife is involved in in a in a um in digital marketing on a grand scale. She works with a company that only works with, you know, uh businesses that have budgets over $100,000 per month, right? And she warned me, she's like, you know, she's like, digital marketing, you're gonna get into it and you're gonna, it's it's just it's shark, it's it's a bunch of sharks as well as you know, everyone's coming in, they'll yeah. Well, I mean, if you if you've got the result, that's the thing is a lot of companies will not necessarily have the results to back it up. You know, they'll there's a lot of promises, there's a lot of upfront, you know, they'll get you in the first 30 to 45 days because maybe they'll get you a nice wave of low-hanging fruit. But then what you're talking about is that ongoing, right? That's that's that's what's so hard to do.

And you have how many clients now in Europe? Yeah, at this very moment, we're hitting the 750 uh clients, which means 750 fitness clubs, health clubs, gyms, yeah, personal trading studios, um, boutique clubs, yoga studios. And they're they're in any any club that has a fixed location, uh a brick and mortar location where you can go to and where exercise or movement, whatever you want to call it, is is the the base. And even physiotherapists that have really fitness departments, uh they're more than welcome. What we know, we just discovered throughout our 14 years of the existence. We discovered what triggers people to at all look at your campaigns, at your ads. We only use ads, paid ads, by the way. That's the only guarantee, guaranteed way that you will have traffic right away, instantly. Yeah, and and we live in an instant gratification society, so we know how to trigger people, how to if they're open, because that's all what it is attract attention, that's step one, and then find out if these people are open to take a look. And if they are, we know how to how to get them to click on the on the ads and really go get get to the landing page. And the landing page is just a website page, but then totally focused on one thing that means converting the the visitor of that page. Uh, no, maybe not even converting. The one goal is to select or filter is this person really interested? Yes or no, just slightly really interested. And if they are really interested, then the next step is um apply for some more information. Yeah, and and the way we do it right now, and we found out that that works best and gets the best, well, pre-qualified leads, is um we don't use lead ads in Facebook. I don't know if you've heard of it or the viewers or listeners have heard of it. There's an ad that is possible, you only need two clicks in Facebook, and then you're you've become a lead, and and everything is pre-uh filled in. Is that correct, English? Is that like chat chatbots? No, that's one of that's one other technique, that's another tool that goes to Messenger. Uh, but this is just I click on the ads and I see my page there, I see my name and email and phone number there. Is this you you want more information? Yes, click one and gone. Yeah, we found out that works, but we found out as well these people are not really, really engaged. Right. Did you ever try on your mobile phone to fill in um uh your name, your number, and your email address? Yeah, yeah. It is it's really a small step, but it's it's it's a giant leap, I want to say actually, a giant leap in the mental um well, readiness to really be interested. You really need to take work, take action there. But once you've done, you're we know that you are you're really interested in whatever the club, whatever the gym has to offer. And um that's what we do. And really what you what you said just now, that uh anybody can make a campaign, any anybody can make an ad run for a while, but the trick is not to make it run for a while, they to keep streaming. And streaming might mean, let's say, on average, if you if we bring an extra on top of whatever they do, an extra hundred leads a month, which is sort of the average that we see internationally. It really depends where you are. A lot of leads. Ongoing every month. Yes, in in January and September, it's a bit higher. Yes, in July, in August, in December, we we maybe we're 10% below on average, but still there's a lot of people coming in. Yeah, a lot of our clients send us messages, please stop the campaigns. Uh, we're too fully booked at that moment. Not maybe the gym is fully booked, but they are funnel of sales and intakes and calls. Yeah. Um in July and August, we get messages, hey guys, this is the best summer ever. It keeps streaming. Where do you guys find them? Everybody's gone on a holiday. No, they're not. They're not, they're just there. Yeah, and even if we are on a holiday, let's say from in Europe, we say if you go on holiday, let's say to Spain or Italy, where where the nice weather is, um, in contrary to the Netherlands, um, it's even on the beach, what do people do on the beach? Uh they grab their phone and they scroll their timeline on it on Facebook. So even there, we are visible to the same to the target audience.

Yeah, and that just makes me think too. Like, if I'm okay, if I'm at the beach, let's say it's August and I'm on vacation, and uh I'm probably the most self-conscious I'll be all year, right? Like I'm thinking, like, how did this happen? Like, how did where did these where did these five, 10 kilos come from? You know, that's that's you know, it makes a lot of sense, but as as fitness professionals, we always want to talk ourselves out of out of you know, why reasons why no one's showing up. You know, we don't we always want to blame external things, like oh, it's it's just the season. Um, oh my my market's too saturated with too many other gyms. Um I know because I've said all this, I've said it a hundred times, right? I've seen it's come out of my mouth.

I agree. I've heard of it. I've heard of it in the Netherlands, I've heard of it in Germany, in Italy, in Canada, in the United States, in New Zealand, that's where we work in the United Kingdom. We we hear the same sort of questions, the same objections anywhere. Yeah, and even in small towns in nothing Gulch, even there, uh where nobody lives, even there we know how to find people. Of course, when the market size, which means how many people in your target audience, uh, how many people are living there in that in your area, in your market area. Um of course it depends. If whether whether you're in San Francisco or in Dallas or in Atlanta or in Chicago, of course, most probably the number of leads will be higher than in what did I say, nothing gulch or in Lutjebroek in the Netherlands, nobody knows of that place, but it does exist. Um, of course, there there will be difference. Um of course there will be a difference if you're a gym or a big gym or uh um we call it a budget club, which means a low, low price, um, a low price club compared to a person trainer. Of course, there will be different numbers of leads, but everybody that responds know what they do, what they respond to. Yeah, and and we just dig digged and digged and digged. We made all the mistakes that anybody did, but we work with 40 at this very moment with 40 over 40 full-time fitness, digital fitness marketers, professionals, and the and and we have an innovation team that is only doing one thing innovate the way that we advertise, find new ways, find new differences, find new strategies, find new tools and new platforms to to work on. And how can we keep the stream flowing? And I yeah, I used to think like you okay, let's do Facebook, let's put it online and it works, and let's sit like this, let's let's backwards. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, you can do that for two days, yeah, and then numbers slow down. Oh, what do we do? So now we have we only we really work with protocols. Everything, everything we do is based on what we've learned up till now. And with 700 clubs in 11 countries, in I think in eight languages, uh, I speak two or three languages. The third one you don't want to hear. That's my lousy German uh language skill. Um but we see the same everywhere, and we learn from all these clubs, all these all these countries, and we have we have this one of our core values is getting one percent better every day. Just one percent. We don't need to make the big jump because a big jump really takes you have to change your protocol or your process in within your business. I I think I we always ask our club, our potential clients, okay, what do you want? Would do you would you prefer a boost of leads right now within a week, let's say a couple hundred or even more leads in a week or two weeks or three weeks, or would you prefer three a day, and that keep on coming every day on average, because 100 leads a month is just three a day. Yeah, and if you're if you're open, let's say between seven in the morning and ten at night, it's once every I don't know, four or five hours, one lead. It doesn't seem like much, but if you get in three extra leads a day, maybe two are really open to to take a next step and and get to know you and get to know your club uh and maybe one will join yeah it's a member a day a client a day yeah how how much if if you add that up every day yeah on average uh it's um that that is our philosophy really and and yes i we can boost and yes we've done eleven hundred leads uh at uh i think in in dollars maybe 60 cents a lead in um in a country called Andorra which is in between france and and spain in the mountains there's a small country there I think uh everybody in the whole country responded I don't know it's such a small country but in within a month it's crazy it's yeah and the club that was there and in Spain we had 700 in the month and uh in Italy we had three four five six hundred in a month and what we found is that all our clients choose to have a step by step by step by step process instead of one big boost and then maybe nothing again and then one big boost and no constant.

Yeah you know I um I I first got I saw the power of digital marketing uh Facebook ads and things like that probably around 2015 maybe 16 uh is when I did the the new you challenge are you familiar with the new you challenge the no I I know the ALS challenge and that's something similar so this is this is it's um it's for specifically for CrossFit gyms primarily so what it is it's a six week challenge um it's it's a specific start date and end date and uh you know the guys over there um you know who run it are are very smart um very well intentioned good people uh and it it worked I got you know I got 220 leads in a matter of two weeks and they had told me they're like you better be ready you know and I was like you know I've been doing this gym thing for a long time there's no way there's no way that's gonna happen and and it did I was blown away and I was amazed uh you know I filled up the challenge and you know I had something like 50 people um in this six week challenge and um the problem was it didn't the issue was it they didn't all stay you know nine 10 months later I had about a four to five percent retention rate on these people um the other thing was when I did it again I'm like well I'm just gonna keep doing this for the rest of my life right why not um every time it got you know I would say 50% less so the second time I got 100 leads the next time I got 50 leads and I got 25 right and uh and it just it really uh messed with with retention um it really messed with um my market you know everyone in my market I thought everyone in my market had seen it already so I'm I'm and now there's the next evolution here in the states where they're doing free free six week challenges so that it's it's free um and what they do is essentially in my opinion I'll probably get in trouble for saying this is it's a bait and switch where they tell the people hey if you complete the challenge and you hit your goals you get your money back right if you don't then we keep your money and then we enroll you in a class. Now that just seems to me there's something that bothers me about it ethically me as well me as well yeah you know and uh because I know other I've actually had had coaches from my gym go off and do something similar in a boot camp and it just I'm you know I questioned it. Is there what is and what I'm getting to is you know what is to keep and what what I wanted was this what I really want is what you're talking about is this ongoing you know drip that keeps going of of quality leads that I can manage I can get to you I can reach out to them and talk to them and touch them and and find out what they want and you know it's it's a great premise but it was hard for me to find what do you have offers that you give to these people like what is it that that kind of attracts them to to the marketing?

Ah then we're talking about the secret source here. Yeah yeah yeah yeah only what you want to know you you want to know more secrets well uh go to fitnessmarketingblog.com and you will read some of our secrets there awesome um I will um once again our our whole core is sharing knowledge sharing insights yeah maybe not all the details sure because it goes too deep and um I sort of hate to say it but I'm the the oldest one in my business and I'm the the only one in my business that is not uh qualified by Google or Facebook or Bing. I don't even have a clue how to really make a Facebook ad really in the back office. I have no clue. But I know what to look for and I know how psychology works and I know what text to use I know what triggers to use. Yeah um and it seems that that is a skill too so okay here we are yeah um yeah interesting that you say that because I don't even care if people give away a free challenge or maybe afterwards free or um or that doesn't matter or bother me too much just a strategic choice that a client or a club owner has to take by himself. But why the question is why do they make these changes or make these sort of far um far sought far fetched I don't know the real English words how why do they make these steps that make it really difficult maybe even mentally it's free oh no I have to pay but I get my money back if I make it but if I don't for whatever reason then I feel bad. But maybe I lose instead of 10 kilos I don't know I lose eight kilos so I don't make my goal and I should be feeling really well but I feel bad because I don't get my money back.

So the focus maybe the emphasis maybe is too much on the money then I think it's not about the money I would raise my prices if I someone is doing uh challenges for free I would raise my price just to improve hey you want guaranteed results guaranteed quality hey it's gonna cost you and I will help you but I guarantee you result in whatever way yeah um in January you started your six week year was it the new year challenge that you started the six week it was it was just a pre it was any time of the year it was like a perpetual thing I would do six weeks I only did it three times I would do six weeks wait rest two weeks essentially where then I would hit my promotion again then I would start another one and after the you know during the third one I'm like this is not and and you know the the thing is and I think the core of it is that what I preach to my clients at the time was like this is a long game right you know you come to me it's not what you're gonna do in 30 days it's what you're gonna do in six nine three years from now I want to improve your health and your habits and uh you know but I I in some ways I compromise my own integrity for lack of a better term to do these six week challenges and and people who will say you know there's a lot of people in the community be like well I would never do a six week challenge it's inauthentic it's it's blah blah blah but I can tell you right now when you own a gym and you have $20,000 in overhead and you have uh you know a mortgage and you have uh employees that are on salary and you got a lot of things you know you take a dip in a two to three months in a row a lot of things a lot of option options open up to you that maybe you weren't open to before and um you know that's um I know exactly where you come from and and really really what what you say now really hits um it's sort of the opposite direction that what we do.

I will share with you right now our secret sauce um maybe two steps even step one um show people what they think they want yeah so give them what they think they want you want you're thinking of I we know that if we put an ad on Facebook hey join now and because in the long term you will get healthy etc um yeah people might be responding but not really most of them won't they're not interested but make it a bite size program is whether it's four weeks six weeks three weeks twelve weeks ninety days two months it doesn't really matter yeah we've seen that the five six week period creep gets most people in but uh give them what they want uh up on the front trigger them to what they want but there's a there's an a knack to it don't sell the five week challenge but sell them what they need so give them what they want just to attract and give them a hand and get them in and just to be able to talk and then ask just to ask the right questions hey guy what what are you looking for? You want to lose 10 kilos and then after that what what then and most of them want a long-term consistent result they want to get the kilos off or their pounds off and keep them off yeah or they want to feel healthier or get a bit more muscular or get whatever they want um and and and stay that way the only guarantee that you can give them is that they stay that way is to give them a long-term membership or a long-term program and what we say instead of hey start now and buy the five week challenge no kickstart your healthier lifestyle start the first five weeks with this challenge which is it's it's it's almost the same but it's not we say choose a healthier lifestyle or a fitter lifestyle or a more slim or a more whatever it is yeah kickstart it with the first and we package the first five weeks of any membership you always do a some intake you always do some measuring you will always do some introductory maybe some food program or you will always do um get extra give extra attention in the first couple of weeks or months of any membership and we just package this package it as a as a challenge we can do it for free when you join for the long run now because we want you to succeed we can even say uh just become a member and if for whatever reason you don't like the experience you can cut out off within a couple of weeks or two months or whatever um we have a lot of clients of ours that that use a sort of guarantee and we call it the happiness guarantee I like that or the happy guarantee um if you're not happy uh but within the uh let's say four weeks it must be really clear within four weeks if you're not happy uh let's let's um you tell us because um we will not come to you and ask if you're happy no we will train you and you you have to do the work so you need to be able to say if you're not happy yeah 0.5 percent whatever on the long term maybe will quit and they will say oh no it's not you guys it's me it's just not my thing and um yeah so it's if if you give if you give quality people are not afraid and and quality or guarantees can be given in different ways with our business we give a qual a guarantee as well um we need some time to build it up and we just guarantee that we do the same thing we give you a satisfaction or a happy guarantee yeah and it's six months it's a bit longer than what I would do in a gym but we're business to business it takes some more time to build up step by step within eight weeks we step rebuild up all the steps that we need to do for our clients and then run it and then run it and not just hit and run once no we want to prove our longevity and we want to prove the constant screen yeah um I I have a second secret sauce ingredients I think you want to hear it do you think your your audience wants to hear it I'm gonna speak to them and say yes yes they want to hear it. We love secret sauce here we love it yeah okay now we're talking Italian secret sauce here um the second thing is what you did with your six week campaign most probably I don't I I think the way you speak about it okay you put up the ads and next time after a couple of weeks you have two weeks rest and put up the maybe the same ad maybe a bit different ad but to the same audience with virtually the same message what we do we have about six campaigns a year ongoing the client doesn't have to really worry about it we will keep running it keep doing it it doesn't really matter whether female or male respondents know what age what age group yes we we make an appointment with our clients we we give them a a 12 month program and together we decide what target audience what's what topic what trigger and the one thing we do is we differ target groups all the time uh so the first two month campaign that runs for we that we set up for like six to eight weeks we run for six to eight weeks may be female 45 to 65 whatever back in shape challenge the second two months will be younger male six pack projects whatever um the the next age group might be younger women get more balance in your life yoga program whatever whatever it is so we we differ activities we differ context we differ uh or make a difference between all the the targets that the that that people are after so it's not weight loss weight loss weight loss or shape shape shape no it's weight loss it's shape it's balance it's healthy back program it's um so we the the differentiation of target audiences of um activities and target yeah um um context it it changes so maybe one audience may see your ad once or twice maybe just three times a year yeah and and every moment of any year a lot of people in whatever market or whatever target audience we're looking at are sort of ready to buy are ready to take a look or are are open to take a look and um two secret sauces here one is don't sell the five week program but give them what they want to attract them to be able to start the conversation and if you start a really good conversation you ask them what you want on the long term so give them what they need the long term program and the second thing is we will take care that target audience will not be um overwhelmed by a tsunami of ads same type of ads all the time but we will use audience of course in a town of 5,000 people you will get less leads overall at all but this is the best guarantee even if in small time to keep running to keep running ads and to keep producing all the time.

Yeah and in San Francisco Dallas again Atlanta Chicago anywhere uh well the audience is big enough the target audience is big enough yeah yeah it's it's all everything you say makes an incredible amount of sense you know it really does and the secret sauce um is extremely valuable and I think a lot of people take from it but there's still so much more I mean there's the copy there's there's the targeting there's the timing there's the imagery there's all these things and you guys you know it's interesting there's there's another gentleman I talked to maybe you know him Mike Arcee he runs loud rumor um so he was on the show not too long ago as well and you know one thing I noticed I see a lot of parallels between you guys um you know one's your European dominant one's North American dominant um but the advantage that you guys get to after you know a critical mass of let's say 500 clients is you start to see what's working right so you have this this unique advantage that the new guys coming into the market as digital marketers just can't just don't have and may never get to right so it's it's this incredible like you can actually oh that's working over there with with you know Steve and in you know France I don't know if there are Steves in France but uh jaqua um you know like let's let's replicate this right um and I think that's that's a big part of it but there's there's I mean what you say from a from a grant standpoint I think will be new to some people not that new to other people who have tried digital marketing but it's it's so much of it is in my opinion I mean tell me please tell me if I'm wrong is is the copy and the timing and the targeting and make sure that message is so specific to the person that you're trying to reach.

It's it's it's a vision and and and you you mentioned the name Mark I I love Mark Arson. I really admire his way of doing I really um that is the fun thing of nowadays I can see whoever is doing fitness marketing in a way that I know that works but we may we there's a slight difference I know that he works more with video than we do um and other tools etc but in the end the philosophy is sort of the same we trigger people we grab attention we trigger people by visuals by words by by copy yeah and although by the way people don't read did you did you know that did you hear that yeah I've heard that yeah that's why I have a podcast yeah but yeah you're the smartest ever people don't read and which is a shame but still they don't but the what what they do read no they skim headers yeah so if you need to write anything and I think you need to write to and need to write at least a header to your ads uh and some triggers add as well to to put in there it's pure psychology as well but make it readable and short and sharp and well yeah yeah the the the attention grabbing thing might be in the visual but it might be in one of the words that you put in maybe in in uh capitals is that the correct word for yes the large letters yes okay um my English is improving uh when I think your English is better than mine man we actually it's it's Dutch capitals is sort of like Dutch and uh so I just can speak Dutch here. Yeah I won't do that I won't do that. Yeah I re I really love I really love all the real professionals in any industry you know my business is not the fitness business but my business is the marketing business.

Right.

And so I online I follow people like Mark Arcy like well other uh marketing gurus that do online marketing or that do digital marketing or they do it in whatever the way they want we learn from them what they do but really like you said you get this critical mass and um the critical mass it it gives you a chance to test way faster make mistakes way faster um although did did I tell you that we never make mistakes right me neither we are the ones you you as well so we are yeah but we should make a podcast about not making mistakes we'll just you and me talk mistakes it's computer computer uh uh trouble yeah it's computer error no to be to be to be serious um it's it it gives us a chance this this critical mass to to go real way faster with testing and trying and failing yeah uh but since we have so many tests for so many clients going on we we see within a couple days already what is working and what is not working and um everything we do right now will be changed totally within two years and everything we would do we did two years ago it might still work and we see people use that same techniques right now which is fine it will it will work some up but up to a certain level but if you want to keep it constant and keep it going and don't want the hassle to look and to discuss oh I I need more leads or where are they or hey I've I've had maybe 50 leads in five days and then suddenly five days of no leads that's our goal is to give you the the 50 days if if it's 50 leads to get them sped out over that is that is our goal it's about you know business is not a race it's not a match it's it's all about being in the game staying in the game and but doing as well as you can up to the level you can that there's one okay there's a a third secret and maybe that's the biggest one the secret sauce ingredients the secret of digital fitness marketing is not in the marketing but it's in the follow up you you you mentioned just a bit earlier to follow up with the lead or to to reach out and to give them a call okay just a question what what Would you do when you go out and look for something or apply for anything at all in this day and age using your mobile? Because that's what 85% of all leads do at this moment. It's it's not mobile only yet, but it's mobile first in anything you do. When we create new websites, yeah, it's great that it looks like perfect on the big screen, but all we need to see is how does it really work on your mobile? How how easy is it to press a button? Is it is the button big enough and is it clear enough? First step immediately when I come to your website for the first time, where do I, as a newbie, where do I click and what do you want me to do next? Um if I do that on my mobile, or if you do that on your mobile or anywhere, how's how long would you like to wait to get the information you are applying for? Oh, I want it now. Yeah, yeah. Instant. Right. Instant. Yeah. Um it's it's it's the same with when someone walks into your club and is at the counter or at the desk. Uh, how long do you keep them standing there without connecting with them? Yeah. Well, uh as short as possible, two seconds, max, and then reach out, even if you're busy. Hey, I see you. Please sit down. Um, I'll be there in 30 seconds.

Yeah.

If the phone rings, if it rings at all, how long will you let the phone ring? And if you pick it up, how long will you put the the caller on hold? Uh not as soon as possible, instant right now. Yeah. So the only difference with people responding to a website or a page or whatever and using their mobile is yeah, this is just a tool they use. Either they use their their feed as a tool, their their phone as a tool, or their or internet as a tool. Um so when the lead comes in, we say you get it by email. Well, you if you have um uh notification on your phone or on your on your computer where the lead comes in just by email, you hear the bling. Okay, grab your phone right away and call them, give them a call. Hey, great, great you uh you you you show interest. Um, look, I'm busy right now. Can I help you? Let's let's meet. Um, please do not bring your fitness gear if you have any. Do not bring it, just come in and feel the atmosphere. Is this a setting for you? And I want to know more about you. Yeah, and so don't be afraid, just just it feels like pushing away because every business owner wants to come in and buy now. No, no, no, no. Yeah, online. I want more information because online have only so much space for information, right? And we say give them a call, get them in, get them acquainted. And if you like each other, um and if they don't like you and don't join you, um, you there's something to learn here, maybe there's a message. Yeah, um, but if if you like each other, uh the the client will come in, the the the the lead will will join you. Not everybody, but we see an average of of up to 65, 64, 65 percent, even up to 65 percent of all leads, all leads online coming in, even the ones that you cannot reach if you call them, even at the ones that are not responding or saying no interest, up to 65 percent will join your gym. Um, by the way, if your follow-up skills are lousy, um, and I I really I can say this based on this many leads and this many clubs that we work for. On average, we can say if your sales percentage is below well, a certain amount, most probably you don't call immediately. Yeah, an hour is will not do. You let them wait for an hour or let them wait for two minutes. People understand that maybe you will not respond right away, but sort of right away, sort of within a couple minutes. Yeah, I'm an old man, I'm 51 years old, and I I I always thought, well, if you call immediately, you show them that you're hungry and that you need them. And in the end, I thought, no, that's not true. Yeah, if you call them from a service mindset, hey, you're responding right now. I I just I pick up the phone right now. Um, what are you uh up to? What are you what are you looking at? What are you interested in? Yeah, okay, let's let's invite because um let's make some time together, etc. So the the context of a call is not to sell, is not to inform, it's just to invite to take time in the club in your environment. If they come in, well, they they're prepared in any way, and you can only lose them by sort of not helping them to make a decision. That's all.

Yeah. That's so interesting, man. It's it's like uh I I do the same thing as I I don't I didn't want to come across desperate, right? It's like it's like when you're 17, you're you're calling a girl. Uh, you know, maybe she calls you and you're like, no, no, no, I can't call back. I gotta wait two days because otherwise I see I'm not cool. I seem too desperate. Like, no, it's it's so, it just doesn't make sense. Uh, what we're saying makes perfect sense from a consumer standpoint, especially nowadays. Like, if I hit a if I'm if I'm looking online and I hit a button submit, right, spit my information, and someone calls me within two minutes, I almost expect that. Right? Like we're in the world of such you know uh quick quick turnaround and and and automation that I would expect that call. Um yeah, that's that's that's an excellent point. And I'm you know, I I actually don't think you're in the business of marketing. I think you're in the business of growth consulting. I think you do you have a service, right? An excellent service, but I think you have to you have to train your clients how how to use the service, right? I mean that's the biggest thing.

And uh and actually when it's not we don't even call it a service because with a service, it's like hey, you're the client and you tell me what's what you want, and I'll do that. That's different, it's different. We have a formula that works for any type of club, yeah. And and we sort of put it over whatever your shape, your business is, we adapt the formula and on details to your to your business. And from day one, that's one thing we do. We we start up a Facebook ad and a landing page that we discussed, okay, what basic topic is it, and we start dripping from day one, really. Uh, if it doesn't start dripping leads from day one, well, it's sort of the big red light will go off in our office. Attention, if it doesn't work this way, uh there must be something. We don't know, but we'll see.

I thought the I thought the red light in Amsterdam meant something completely different. What kind of office you got over there?

Oh man, I we never see the red light district. We it's it's it's two streets, and uh, but that's that's how famous we are. We are famous for other stuff as well. Yeah, I know that you're thinking of soccer players right now. Um, no, that is that is the image of the Dutch. I know. Uh, you did you know, by the way, that um New York was called New Amsterdam at first? It was a Dutch New World location, yeah. So um, yeah, but but we decided to to stay low profile and just keep the old stuff we had, and uh that's how the Dutch are.

Well, there's there's a lot of things about United States history that's not true that we learned. And uh as I put on more years and on this planet, I'm like, wait, that's not true, you know, especially when I travel up to Canada and hang out with Canadians, they're like, Oh yeah, you guys got your history all wrong.

Uh I don't know that much about actually I don't know the capital of Idaho or of well, maybe Kansas. Is that Kansas City probably? I think so.

I think so.

Yeah, don't ask me these questions, man. You're gonna make me look bad. I don't know.

Um there's a cultural difference, of course. There's a cultural difference, and we see well it's interesting to see, we see uh Southern European countries responding more in a higher level and on a in a bigger volume than the northern European uh countries that we are active in. Um we see Canadian and Americans respond in the same level as sort of the North American or North uh North European, mid and European levels. So we see all the same, and there's only some we have discussions about language or about vocabulary, or yes, there are different, we know there's a difference between American English and um and English, British English, and not potato potato, but more like uh pavement and sidewalk. Yes, we know there's a difference, yeah. Um, but if you look at hey, um are you do you want to feel more fit and more slim and more healthy and more alive and more secure or more um it's it's the same letters, it's the same words, it's the same vocabulary, it's the same feeling and same emotions that we that we hit. And um sometimes even in Dutch or German or it we use English words and because it's it's so well known. And it's it really is interesting to see that the way I started out doing everything with print campaigns and maybe here and there building a website or um having having um a website builder business build the websites for our clients. Um we give all our clients a new website, every every one of them. And it's a licensed deal, but it's a zero-cost license deal. And it why is that simply because we want to guarantee your results, yeah. And we have quite some people, yeah. But I just built a new website, it cost me 8,000 euros or dollars or 10,000 dollars. Okay, how happy with the results of the website that is generating results for you? How happy are you with the results? I don't need to know any secret of how many leads you get. No, I just how happy you are you on a scale of one to ten. And it appears that everybody we talk to thinks, oh, it can be better, sometimes way better, and sometimes yeah, maybe just a little bit better.

Yeah.

Um and yeah, if you if you think that we can help you with all the experience of 700 clubs, we just share them. Well, um, if if you start with us, we give you a happy guarantee or a satisfaction guarantee. And if within six months you're not happy, give us a call or give us an email, and and at the end of the six months, um, we give you your old website back, of which you know for sure that it doesn't work, but at least then no strange attests to us.

Yeah, that's that's a really, really important thing because one of my biggest one of the things that bugs me quite a bit is that a lot of uh companies will redo a website and then hold the client hostage with that website, because they're like, Well, if you leave us, you don't get the website anymore, right? And they have nothing to fall back on because their old website was cleaned and and gone. Um and it's really bothersome. Now you put this person in a really tough financial spot because they're gonna have to buy another website or have to do one on their own, which is even worse. Um you know, and when we when we spoke, you you have some pretty lofty goals of where you see where you want to see your business in a spinary time.

Um, it inspires me. Um what is that goal? Share with us.

You know, when when I started out in in 2004, I just wanted to share my my insights and my philosophy on on marketing in the fitness industry, and I just want to make a living. And that was my first goal, my first entrepreneur's dream, let's say. And and um we ask our clients when we start working together, what's your dream? Why did you start? And my that was my goal, just to make a living and share my insights and have uh have enough clients that I well just could have a good living. Um, after one year without advertising, and I never up till now we never advertised in Europe. We never ever advertised anytime for a new client, ever. All we do is share insights, share knowledge, we write blogs, we write um columns in magazines, in print magazines, we're on stages. Uh, we share any on social media anything we find that might be of interest. It still is and will always be. And after one year was full, and I had to make a decision. This is going well, great. The uh trouble, do I want to stay alone and get this and keep my freedom or and get maybe become the expensive consultant? Or do I want to build a business? And actually, it wasn't even a question. I wanted to have a like leave a legacy. That's actually what my my next goal became. And I thought, well, maybe if I have 10, 12 employees, a team to work with, I know them all. We're one small family, maybe, and uh we will have maybe 100 clients, which would be absolutely great. And we had impacts once we got there. Ah, what now? So now we have to make another decision. Do I really want to grow? By the way, um, it took us some um ups and downs. We the economy uh uh hit or the economic economic crisis hit as well here in uh in Europe as well. In December 2010, I didn't know how to pay for the the wages, the salary of my team. Somehow I managed thanks to thanks to one of our clients uh who's still with us for over 11 years now. Um there's no yeah, there's a contract, but there's for all clients after the first contract periods, maximum 80 months. Um it's they're free to go any month, but they don't go because they know that we keep on providing, keep on providing. Um my big goal for now, our big goal for the whole team, and actually what we decided with our management team, okay, what is our B hack, our big hairy, audacious goal? There's one of our part of our yeah, part of our our you're a hairy man. I'm a hairy, uh hairy man, okay. Um the big hairy audacious goal, it's part of the the get uh good to great book of Jim Collins, and it really helps you find where's your passion, where's your economic value, how where's your market big enough that you really can do, that you can survive, that you can make money, and what potentially what's one topic can you be the potentially the the world world's number one in the the the best in the world, and actually where they come together, that is where it is, and that is your that's your core, and that's what we do. We generate leads and clients for fitness clubs, and any club that has a brick and brick and mortar, uh brick and and and uh mortar business, and and where movement or physical activity exercise is number one. Our big goal by January 2030 is to service at least 10,000 clubs worldwide, and it's freaking us out because it's we we're at 700 and we know how hard of a work it was to get there and to manage it all and to keep everybody happy. Um, so we need to grow, we need to grow as as as club or as founder and as marketers and as management team. We need to grow, and that's a challenge, and uh, we took that challenge on. So um uh let's say let's meet again in 10 years and let's see where we are. Yeah, all the downtime sooner as well.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Well, I'm um, you know, it was it was good because I I had interviewed you on my other podcast, The Fitness Blitz, about four or five months ago, and you know, once I did that interview, I'm like, I gotta get this guy on the full, full length show because um you just got a lot to say, and and you're a marketing guy who doesn't come across as markety, right? Uh you just you seem you you come across very authentic, and I knew it'd be a great conversation, and it was. And uh I appreciate you coming on and sharing some of your secret sauce. And um, you know, I think uh yeah, it was it was a lot of I learned a lot as you know, I kind of consider myself a marketer at times, um, and I learned a lot from from talking to you. So um yeah, man, or not, thanks for coming on the show and and people find you uh hiddenprofitsmarketing.com. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank thank you, sir. This has been it's been an absolute pleasure.

Okay, well, well, thank you for for having me on here as well. And uh I really enjoy just sharing our insights with anybody in in a short version, in the longer version, uh, any anytime, any place. And um uh happy to see you and uh let's serve the the fitness industry. I agree, I agree.

Ladies and gentlemen, are not Lesenberg. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us, it's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or Fitness Marketing Alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge, that's a big deal for us. And when we put a lot of work into these episodes, uh trying to give you create actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for the show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh, if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness Marketing Alliance.com