Fitness Business Asia - Jack Thomas

Actually in Thailand, some of our coaches, our foreign coaches, are saving more money than possibly they would even be earning in in in in in the US or the UK. But here you can really earn decent money, cost of living can be very low. So yeah, certainly opportunities, certainly opportunities in the industry for for gyms to open as well. And I would say that's the case all across Asia. You know, it's it's a developing market.

Hey fitness fans, welcome back to the Future of Fitness Podcast in the interview series. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and we're on episode number 126. I have the supreme pleasure of talking to Jack Thomas. So Jack is a fellow podcaster. He has the Fitness Business Asia podcast. And what's fun about this? Oh, he's also a multi-gym uh owner. Base is out of originally Thailand, and he's now expanding throughout Asia. I do believe they won the best gym of 2018 uh for Thailand, so that's kind of cool. Um, I was also part of uh his podcast, got to be interviewed on there on Fitness Business Asia. And during this interview, it's different because I interview him, he interviews me, and we swap somewhere in the middle. So it was uh it was fun. It was really cool. I really enjoyed it. And Jack's a great guy, uh, he has a lot to offer, and just hearing what's going on in Asia and the opportunities over there uh is really eye-opening. And uh there's a ton of potential and you know how the cultures change and and where they're at compared to you know how we are over here in the West is just a really interesting point of view. So um before we get into the interview, I just want to plug a review. So uh experience-rx says Future of Fitness is my favorite fitness podcast. Eric covers a wide range of topics and connects each guest with intelligence, curiosity, and humor. He brings out their stories, struggles, and successes in a way we can learn from and empathize with both personally and professionally. These are great conversations. Thank you, Experience RX. I really appreciate it. And uh yeah, if you want to get a review right on air, it's pretty simple. Go to iTunes, subscribe to what we're doing here, uh, leave me a nice review, I will get notified, and I will read on air. Just that simple. And it goes a long way. I really, really, really appreciate it. So uh lastly, before we get on to the interview with Jack, this episode is brought to you by certifiedcoursecreation.com. And you know, if you've been doing this this game for a while in the fitness, health, and wellness space, and you have a very, very solid uh specific knowledge that's that solves a specific problem, and you've seen a lot of success with it, and you're ready to get that knowledge out there and also stop training your time for money. So going from essentially a B2C model to a B2B and start being a leader uh more than you are now, then this is probably a very, very worthwhile step. Now, we are very selective with the partners that we work with, so um I would love the opportunity to talk to you first. So go to certifiedcoursecreation.com. There's an application, you can find a place to book a call, uh, or you can just reach out to me individually. Uh I'm everywhere. It's not hard to find me. So do it. It's it makes a lot of sense, and we're looking for great partners. Not a lot of partners, just a few great partners to uh to build this thing out and make it something very, very special and unique within the market. So go check it out, certifiedcoursecreation.com. This could be your next big step, and I would love to uh talk to you all about it. So without further ado, let's get into it. This is episode number 126 with Jack Thomas of the Fitness Business Asia podcast and base gyms in Asia. Enjoy the show. And we are live. I have Jack Thomas all the way from Central Bangkok, man. Welcome, uh, welcome to the show. We have a little bit of a different format today, which people will uh hopefully like.

Yeah, thank you, Eric. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, man. Uh this is pretty cool. So you um I'll let you explain more about what you're what you do out there in uh in Asia and and uh especially Bangkok, but uh you know for people listening today, this is gonna be kind of fun. So um Jack is also a podcast host, right? And we'll get into that much more. So we're going to uh split the interview. You guys are gonna get a two for one deal today. Listening to That's right, that's right. So uh I'm gonna start uh because uh I like to have control of things. So um we'll start interviewing. Okay. Uh so give us your story, man. Give us a little of your background, kind of how you end up where you are.

Yeah, I always try and give the quick version of this because it could quite easily last a few hours. But unbelievably, I've been here almost 15 years. And I remember when I first came and I met people who'd been here five or ten years in Bangkok, I was like, that is insane. How can you be an agent for that long? 15 years later, I'm still here, which is crazy. Um, again, give you the very quick version. So I came here traveling, backpacking, did some English teaching just for the experience for about a year, and then decided maybe it was time to go home. Went home, realized that wasn't the case. And I'd actually had an idea to do a clothing export business. I'd seen some really cool local brands, which I thought would do well in the UK. So I came back to Thailand, set that up, had a great three years working with a friend of mine in the UK, kind of a small operation, but it was a good, strong, successful business. So I learned some of the foundations of what it meant to run a business and kind of like ignited that entrepreneurial spark, you could say. And then it took a bit of a downturn around 2008-2009, in line with the global economic crisis. So I was at a bit of a crossroads, didn't know what to do, and sought an opportunity in the fitness industry here. I was going to some of the chain gyms, seeing, to be honest, the poor standard of personal training. Knew a couple of coaches who were good, who were doing well, and just saw an opportunity. Um, turns out eight years later, I was right. It was the beginning of the fitness industry really developing and growing and turning into something quite special. Well, I probably got in about two or three years before that really started to happen. So I think for me it was great timing. Started working for a small studio, which became a bigger studio, and then I went from coach to fitness manager to managing director, running running that company on my own. My boss was living abroad at the time, and then about three years ago, I left to set up base. So we've been operating for about two and a half years. Um we've gone from four coaches to 23. We've got three branches now. Um, we have a strong, healthy business in Asia. We're looking for expansion opportunities, um, perhaps in the region. Um and it's just been, yeah, it's been an incredible journey in the fitness industry. I'm very, very happy that I made that decision. Um, very happy in the way that the you know the global economic crisis happens uh to me. Obviously, not good for a lot of people overall, but to me it sent me on my path, which was into the fitness industry. So very happy with where I'm at, um, very excited. Every day's a challenge, but I'm loving it.

Yeah, awesome, man. So, what's the name of the the chain of gyms that you have now or facilities? The studio is called Base. Okay.

Yeah, so it's called Base. Uh the reason we called it our tagline is build your base. So we believe that all clients should build a strong foundation. Um, there's a few other things that we were looking for when we've named the gym. One was a word that Thai people could say, and base ticked that box. I wanted something strong, I wanted something powerful. Yeah. Um for me, I like the idea of base almost being like your your home. It's the place that you go to, you know. I'm going back to base, and that kind of felt strong for me. So it ticks a lot of boxes. Um yeah, remember that one. It was a long protest to get to that to that name, but that's what it means to us.

Cool, cool. And where where are the locations?

So we have one in the main residential area of Bangkok called Tong Law. Um, then we opened one in the business districts a year later, and then which is about five, six kilometers away from our first one, and then our third location, which we opened a few months ago, kind of bridges the two. So in between the middle. So we've pretty much got central Bangkok covered now, I would say. We've got the main areas of Bangkok. So I'm not sure if Bangkok can handle another base. We shall find out. No plans for that, but internationally I do see opportunities in the region in Asia. Yeah, well, Bangkok's huge, right? Like how many people are in Bangkok? It is huge. Yeah, it's interesting. It's a very big city, and there's about 10 million people. I mean, I think that was a while ago, it's probably 12 million or so now. Um, but the areas that can uh have, you know, a boutique fitness training studio, some somewhere that's charging premium prices is fairly small. If you compare that to, say, you know, pretty much anywhere in the US, where even people in the outskirts, maybe even more so in the suburbs, will be able to sort of pay what we offer, not so much in Bangkok. You're pretty much restricted to central Bangkok. And as soon as you start to go out, less people can afford the sort of premium gyms. But we are seeing more 24-7 gyms, cheaper offerings springing up in all corners of the city.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, boutique gym, everyone's kind of got a different definition uh of it, but you know, the general idea is the same. Um how like what is what is a client experience like for you guys? What type of training do you do? Is it a class format? Like, give us more details on that.

Yeah, so we offer group class and personal training. You know, I would call it sort of boutique premium offering. We don't have any kind of open gym or anything like that, so nobody can come in and do their own workout. Um, you sort of say word experience. Um, we talked about this on a on a podcast I did recently a lot. Um, someone was telling me it's quite sort of a buzzword in the US. You know, it's being thrown around a lot and used a lot. Um, I mean, I I'm a massive believer in creating a client experience. And I think when you charge a lot more than the 24-7 gyms, a lot more than the chain gyms, people need to get something for what they're paying, and which for me is the experience. So we are just sort of huge on that, and just crafting that from the very first moment they engage with your gym or your studio, um, which usually is online. You know, they usually hear about you and they'd usually visit your Instagram page. Certainly in Thailand, that's the usual route that they would go. Um, so you need to make sure that you're representing your business in the best possible way there. Then they would come to your studio. So as they're walking up to base, for example, we have a big neon sign, we have our tagline on the wall, build your base. As you come in the door, we have good music, we've invested a lot into a good sound system, the front desk are trained to greet you in the right way. You get a workout sound which isn't that common in Asia, um, everything is branded. We've given a lot of thought and attention to every single detail in the gym. We've invested a lot into our bathrooms. Again, that's not something that's done massively in the boutique space here in Asia. Um, and then the class, you know, we invest so much into our coaches and so much into the process to create a great group class experience for the client. And that means connecting with the client before they start the class, having a chat with them afterwards. And you know, we want them to leave thinking, you know, wow, what just happened? You know, really blow them away from the very start to the very finish. So we put a lot of work in, we have to work on the culture and the values of the company to make sure that everyone understands the importance of that and really buys into that. Um, but you know, experience is kind of everything about what we do, really. If they're not getting experience, if it's not different enough to the cheaper offerings, you know, of which there are many now in Bangkok that offer you know free group classes and everything else along with it. If we're not creating something which really makes us stand out from that, we're not gonna have a successful studio. It's yeah, it's as simple as that. So yeah, as you can see, I'm I'm big on experience.

Yeah, well, it's it's it's huge. You know, ultimately, um, because I know some of the questions you have for me later, but the big thing is, you know, are you giving your clients the best hour of their day? And if you are, then you know it's you're you're on you're on to something, right? They should look forward to it, um, feel great when they leave, and but it also should be consistent, right? And that's that's absolutely too.

Um I mean, yeah, it's part of our mission, you know, we should the hour they spend at base should be the highlight of our clients' day. You know, that's part of that mission. And I I think that's the way it should be. Um I think honestly, I think it's beautiful the way the industry's gone because 15 years ago, I didn't hear anybody saying that. You know, it's pretty much that hour that I don't want to do, but I need to do, and it was a chore. And that was training for me for so long. And I just love the way it's gone now that it's something that people are excited about, it's people something that people want to do. I mean, yeah, I I love that. I love the way the industry's gone. I think it will continue to go that way.

Yeah. Jack, I'm curious, man, is um is there any like when you're building out, you know, the the experience, uh is there any cultural differences that may be surprising to us in the West that you have to be aware of? You know, like little things that maybe we if like if I was gonna go over there and open a facility, um, I'm sure I'm I'm very unaware of the culture. I wouldn't be maybe respectful of things that I didn't know of, or or maybe I would do things that would be offensive. Uh is there anything like that that comes to mind? I'm curious.

In terms of the clients and their expectations, I would say not so much. You know, they're in central Bangkok, they're they're they're fairly open to sort of Western ideas. We do have a lot of Western coaches. We have seven or eight Western coaches, or you know, uh foreign coaches, let's say some from Korea, Australia, from the US, um, so from everywhere, really, from you know, obviously from the UK as well, such as myself. So in terms of the actual class experience, not so much. In terms of crafting the experience in terms of the Thai staff who are involved with that, I would say very much so in terms of how they interact with clients, and then certainly how they are managed, I would say is is is very different. You know, you have to consider sort of Asian values such as like saving face, the way the issues are addressed. Um, I think typically I would say, you know, you can be less direct here with staff than you can in the UK. Um, so that really sort of changes how you and you know, having been here 15 years, I have a quite a good understanding of psychulture and what's acceptable and what's not, and the ways to sort of connect with them and the ways to inspire them and develop a strong working relationship. So, in terms of the staff playing their part in crafting the experience, I would say, yeah, it's very important. But in terms of that end product, the group class, not yeah, not so much, I don't think. I think if you can create something that would, and this was our original um goal actually was to create a studio that would thrive even in New York, even in LA, even in Sydney, London, the top international fitness cities of the world. I wanted to create something that would stand out there even, and then if we could do that, then we would smash it in Asia. And you know, there wasn't really much in terms of the group class and the type of offering we offer um that really differs much to the to the West, I think.

Yeah, interesting, man. Yeah, you know, it's funny that you know, out here, uh, especially in the United States, is we're so dictated by media, right? And they're so quick to um uh point out the differences in culture and uh you know how we're we're so different, we're so different, be scared, right? And uh, you know, meanwhile, every time I've traveled, I'm like, you know what, people are just like me. You know, there's every once in a while you get sh you get surprised by a cultural difference or something, like maybe a hand gesture you shouldn't use uh in one country, uh, but it's okay here, you know what I mean? But it's it's um it's fascinating. It's cool to hear that you know it's it hasn't been too much, but of course you've been 15 years, so you've been in there pretty pretty deep. What about the um the environment from a business standpoint? Like finding a place to lease, do you own a place? Like how are landlords good? Is it is a government come in and and regulate? Like, what's that experience like from a business side?

Yeah, so we don't own the the premises, we we we do have leases. Um that's where my business partners have come in very, very handy. So I have four type business partners that I work with, and um, one is not very active, two are a little bit active, and help to bring some people to the studio, um, and then one is a lot more active. So the one that's more active has helped a lot in that regard. And I think if you're going to do business in Asia, having a strong local partner that understands the landscapes more and has a strong network, I think is is is pivotal. So that's definitely helped with that. Honestly, doing it on my own would have been a lot, lot harder. Um, just an example, we had you know some issues with delays in construction with our first location, which was a really difficult time, you know, in many ways, you know, financially, emotionally, everything else, just getting that first one built out, you know, it was we had staff waiting to start and everything else. And I think without my business partner who was basically negotiating with the contractor, you know, negotiating a deal because it had taken so long to finish the studio, that would have been really difficult, I think, you know, for me. Just again, culturally, this is a a an area that I wouldn't have understood as much. You know, managing Thai staff or training up a frontness member of staff, I would feel quite comfortable with, but kind of like a business dispute or something like that, you know, with a Thai um contractor or a partner that we're working with, I think would have been a lot harder to negotiate. So I pretty much left that to him, and you know, he did a great job and kind of sailed us through that potentially difficult time. Um, I think in Thailand we have an advantage that what we do is valued. So a lot of landlords or premises they actually want us there. You know, we we get approached a lot of a new mall that's opening up, you know, a new co-working space, which is our second one, and they wanted like a fitness operator there, and they really want us in there, they see the value of what we bring, and that's partly what we've you know built a reputation of our brand that's helped us get there, but also just sort of premium boutique fitness is you know, it's big now, it's sort of trendy here. So that enables us to sort of negotiate a good deal. Now I've heard um, and that's you know, maybe a little bit unique to the fact that we sort of carved out a strong position in the market here. From what I hear from friends in Hong Kong, it's not really like that. A landlord is a landlord and they want their money, and that's it. Yeah, sure. So it makes it a lot harder, actually. You know, rent is typically higher. You know, we've been able to get good deals based on the back of like you know who we are and what we bring. So that's cool to see that happening in Thailand. Um, I've heard you know, Singapore's the same. I've spoken to a couple of operators there, they've had good deals offered to them because they value a boutique space being there. So that's great. I'm gonna be interested to know if in the US that happens much.

Um rarely. I mean, my experience, you know, is I was just another business and you know, I had to pay the rent. And if not, you know, um, you know, they're they're just worried about their numbers. And uh yeah, so it became kind of you know, it became tough. And um I can't remember if it was if I was talking to you, Jack, or maybe it was uh it might have been Natalie Dow out of Singapore, but the uh availability of talent as far as trainers and coaches, how how is that over there? Because I remember I think it was her. I think it was Natalie saying that it's tough, like they need they need talent, right?

It's improved a lot. Even in the last three years, I would say it's changed since since we opened base. Um but if I look at the sort of eight years that I've been in boutique fitness here, I would say at the beginning, very difficult. Very few Thais really wanted to do this. It was kind of before it really took off here, so it wasn't really seen as a full career, and I hear this to be a real problem in Asia. You know, in Thailand it's slowly starting to change, in Singapore, like slowly, but it's still not seen as a very good job. So your best quality talent won't, you know, their parents likely won't really agree with it, and we do see that. So actually, some of our Thai coaches who are fantastic, they kind of had to go against the wishes of their parents, you know, to get a more traditional job and to become an instructor. It's just sort of seen by many here as like another service job. Okay. But that is that is changing, and I think a big part of that is um developing your staff. I think is just you know, is it's huge and showing them that it's an actual career, and also just paying well. Like some of our young Thai coaches are earning far more than they would earn in like a traditional role. So, you know, we charge pretty much Western rates, and we pretty much pay Western rates as well. So some of our guys are earning a lot of money. So I know now some of their parents are like, oh, okay, well, maybe there is something to this, you know, maybe there is a potential career here. I have a couple of friends in Indonesia and Jakarta, and it's it's a younger industry there, and they're trying to do the same thing. One's a spin studio, one's kind of like a boot camp style operation, and they're trying to change the industry by paying more and by showing people it's an actual job, and they're kind of like kind of in it together, they're sort of helping each other out, and they're trying to build up an industry there, and they actually want more competition, they want more people doing what they're doing. So people start to see it as a real job, and it actually starts to build the industry there, which everyone benefits from. So I think, yeah, I think um, you know, that's a barrier that we have here, I think. But it is changing. So in the last three years or so, we've seen more ties, they have given up sort of you know more traditional jobs, um, ones that would be viewed as sort of perhaps better careers to come into fitness and to do something they've enjoy, that they enjoy. And I think in the last sort of two, three years we've had quite a few Thai members of staff come over from more traditional roles. Um, again, I I feel like I can't really speak for the industry here because now that we've sort of cemented our place as one of the top studios here, we get a ton of applications. So recruiting is never easy, getting good staff is never easy, but we are in a fairly fortunate position, I think, where we get quite a few good, strong, solid applications. I'm not sure if that's quite the case for for all of the gyms here. Um, so I would hope that you know people start to see it as a real job, um, employers start to treat their employees um in the right way and build up a proper career for them in this industry. And I think then we will continue to see this shift of like, okay, there's actually opportunities here. And every time a member of staff comes in, you know, some of them may be a little wary about the career change that they're making. I still look at there's a huge opportunity here in fitness in Asia. There's so many different directions your career could go in. Um, you know, we're expanding if you want to get into management, if you want to get into specialist coaching, if you want like a marketing role in our gym or anything else that might come up, there are massive opportunities. If if we end up expanding abroad, if you wanted to go and help set up locations abroad, there'll be the opportunity is there. So don't think that this is like not a good job and this is not a career. Um see, I think you know, the more employees that start to view it in that way, the more I think the industry will develop in Asia.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And I'm also Kind of thinking on behalf of like our listeners, if someone's like, you know what, I want to move to Asia, right? I want to be a fitness professional over there. You know, I've done you know five, ten years here in the States, maybe it's time for me to go over there. I'm just wondering if there's opportunity for good, you know, professional fitness coaches to make a living and make a lifestyle or make a life in general over in Asia.

Absolutely. Yeah, there's certainly opportunities here. I mean, if it was for a coach to come over, then absolutely, and please do get in touch because we're always looking for superstar foreign coaches. Um so yeah, absolutely. I mean, actually in Thailand, some of our coaches, our foreign coaches, are saving more money than possibly they would even be earning in the US or the UK. It's a very competitive market in the UK. As a personal training and as a personal trainer in central London, it's going to be pretty hard to earn good money and have disposable income. But here you can really earn decent money. Cost of living can be very low. It can be expensive as well in certain areas, but it's pretty low overall, and you can live on next to nothing, and you can earn good money. So, yeah, certainly opportunities, certainly opportunities in the industry for gyms to open as well. And I would say that's the case all across Asia. You know, it's it's a developing market. You know, if you again, if you look at the UK, it's a lot more developed. There is a lot happening, but it's a lot more developed, but it's very much developing here. Um huge opportunities, I think, in many different areas. And we're really seeing that, you know, especially over the last few years with so many different offerings opening up.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, man. It sounds like a great place to be. And so you started a podcast too. Tell me why uh what was your uh what was your impetus for that? Why why did you want to do that? Why would you want to do something crazy like that?

I know, yeah, right. I want to add all of that work. So yeah, I mean I committed recently to doing one every week, and that's been really good actually. It's kind of um giving me some accountability and put the pressure on to sort of get one out every week. It's been great fun. I've really enjoyed it. I'm sure you have as well, Eric. Despite what you say, I'm sure at the time it's been a great thing to do. It's been great. Um sometimes I'm like, I don't really feel like doing it now, but once you sort of get going and you start writing um, you know, the points that you want to go through in your next podcast, and obviously any interview do is always great fun. Um I started listening to podcasts about um a year and a half ago. I was doing a lot of traveling around the city when we opened up our first branch, and I was listening to a lot of music, and I just want to go listen to so much music at work as well. I just got kind of bored and wanted to see something a bit more productive. So just started listening to podcasts, hadn't done so for a few years, and just started getting so much value. You know, I was traveling around the city for like an hour and a half, so I'd literally be listening to an hour and a half every day at 1.5 speeds, so maybe two hours of podcasts every day, and it was just giving me so much value, and I was connecting with all of these people, you know, really sort of connecting with what they said, really learning a lot. Um, and then I decided to start my own for a few different reasons. One was as we were growing the company to connect with the staff. Um, as we grew, I thought it'd be a good way to sort of still keep connected with them, even if we sort of expanded abroad, I thought that would be a good opportunity for them to still listen in and to still learn. Um, we'd had some coaches that asked about the business side, and I thought rather than sit down with them and go through the business side, which I thought would be quite a difficult, laborious process with many different members of staff. I was like, why don't I just put out all of the information that I know, you know, like a brief on it. Um if they want to learn more, just let me know, hit me up, let's go for a coffee, and I'll be happy to talk in depth about anything that you're particularly interested in. And it's it's a good way of sort of filtering out actually the ones that are like, oh, I would like to learn about business, but just you know don't really want to put any effort in, and the ones that are like, yeah, I want to learn about business and really do because they would listen, they would ask, and they have done, and we've gone through it. And that's you know, that's been great. Um, just personal development, you know, it was uh I've my public speaking has improved a lot, certainly since when I was younger, and I used to get so nervous about standing up in front of anyone and talking. So it's definitely helped to improve that. It was kind of odd sitting on my own at home with a microphone. It took a bit of getting used to, but now I feel much more, I'm sure you can uh relate as well. I feel much more comfortable with the process now to connect with people, you know, such as yourself. You know, I'm not sure if we were connected if it wasn't for our podcast, so that's been awesome. You know, made friends from all around the world, and especially in the region as well, of course. You know, I've interviewed some great, great people um in Southeast Asia, so that's been awesome. Um, and then also as we expand and grow as a business, I thought it was a good way to get myself out there, to get base out there. You know, as we expand, it would help to position us as people that know what we're talking about in the region and Asia. So yeah, really, really happy that I've done it. Really happy that I'm in this rhythm now of putting out one every week. Um and yeah, it's just been great. Um, if anyone's thinking about doing it, I would certainly recommend it. Yeah, yeah, me too, man.

With that, I'll uh I'll hand it over to you. So, what is the name of your podcast?

Uh podcast is the Fitness Business Asia podcast. So much of the information we put out is applicable to anyone in the industry, to be honest with you. Um, you know, I talk a lot about PR, marketing, branding, running a team, building culture, all of that kind of stuff, building experience, such as how we talked about today. Um but there are Asia focused topics. So we talk about the market here specifically. You know, if I interview someone from Hong Kong, let's say I would obviously go deep into what's happening in Hong Kong, what are the trends there, what can we expect next. So wherever anyone is in the world, I would say give it a listen and see if it's for you. Um, but certainly if you're based in Asia, there'll be a lot of great um relevant information for you.

Yeah, yeah, awesome, man. Well, you're uh I'm gonna hand the controls over to you, man. It's your cool. Thank you, Eric.

It's been a pleasure. Yeah, really nice to connect with you. And um, yeah, it's always a pleasure to talk about the fitness business and what's going on in Asia as well. So thank you, mate.

Yeah, yeah, right on.

Cheers. Nice one. Eric, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the Fitness Business Asia podcast. Thank you very much for joining us all the way from the West Coast, right?

Uh well, originally from the West Coast, yeah, man. I've um, but I currently live in northwest Montana, which uh probably a lot of people out in Asia may not know where that is. And a lot of people in the States actually don't know where that is. So it's Okay. So certainly people from Asia might not. Yeah, yeah. It's um yeah, it's we're up in the mountains in the Rockies, um about 45 minutes south of the Canadian border. It's beautiful up here.

Okay, and you made a conscious decision to sort of move away from the city and spend more time in natural surroundings, is that right?

Yeah, yeah. So my my background essentially is uh, you know, I'm I was born and raised in Northern California and uh actually in the Silicon Valley before it was really the Silicon Valley. And uh yeah, so went to college um out east and uh in Boston, and when I came back, I got kind of the normal corporate job, right? Started doing sales, uh marketing, promotions, and I did various forms of that for about man, 10 years, so all of my 20s. And you know, I started looking at the track I was on of like, okay, if I stay on this track, what is my life gonna look like in 10 years? And I I didn't particularly like it, right? And you know, randomly at a point, uh, right when I turned 30, I got a text message from an old college teammate, uh, his name is Traver Bohm, and uh said, Hey man, do you want to open a gym? And I was like, you know, it was actually happy hour in San Francisco. I was living there, and I was like, What? That's weird. And uh so I stopped and then I had a beer, and then I texted him back. And this was back when texting was like not what it is now, so it was like 3-3-222-111, right? Right, right. I was like, My younger listeners might not might not be able to relate. Yeah, some of the younger listeners will be like, what is he talking about? Uh and I was like, Yeah, I do, I do. And so we met um, you know, a couple weeks later and started the whole process of affiliating for a CrossFit Gym. We picked a location of where we want to go within a few years. Just give us some some perspective. How long ago was this, sorry? Uh yeah, so that was 2008. Okay. Yeah, right before the big drop. And uh yeah, so that, you know, right around that time we formulated the business. Uh, I packed up all my earthly belongings in my car and I drove down to Santa Barbara, California, which is a beautiful location. Um, they just didn't have a designated CrossFit gym there yet. And yeah, we uh I never really been to the city, didn't really know anybody, but we found a small location, it was about 800 square feet. I don't know what that is for uh meters for people uh listening in metric, but um small, it was small, basically the point. And started tearing out. Yeah, yeah.

So it was yeah, it was it was big.

I mean, 2008 was a terrible time to start a business, right? As you probably remember. And um, so we had to bootstrap everything. It was kind of personal funds, got a small loan from my dad, um, just enough to keep it going. And uh it just, you know, CrossFit was very slow around that time. 2008, 2009, 2010, it started to get a little bit more popular, right? And then it started to just hockey stick uh, you know, growth, really fast growth, um 2010 through 2014. And at that point, we just started expanding, got a new location, blew out a wall in that location, and uh just continued to grow the business until um when I decided to, for many reasons, personal, professional, to sell uh in 2017 and um successfully sold it. And my wife and I decided that we wanted to see more, do more. And uh, you know, nothing wrong with once again, nothing wrong with Santa Barbara, it's an amazing place, but we want to see some mountain towns. And since that point, um it's been almost a year and a half, which is shocking to me. Uh we've lived in about seven or eight different places all around Western North America and uh, you know, through Canada and back. And it's just been a really cool adventure. And from a professional standpoint, you know, I have a couple podcasts which we, you know, just kind of interview. Um started a company this year called Certified Course Creation, where we help uh people who have a lot of knowledge and specialization within the fitness and health and wellness industry to create um online certification courses. Uh so we do that. Uh I'm starting a uh business mentor uh program uh or company with a couple colleagues of mine who have been in the industry for, you know, collectively who've been in the industry for like 40 years. Uh and then uh I have a small um high-end networking group for um fitness entrepreneurs, people who are essentially B2B, uh online, or tech. And uh it's it's cool. I'm really excited about where I am. Um, you know, just like you, I kind of started a podcast and then I started another one. Uh for few first one was called Future of Fitness. Uh second one is the Fitness Blitz Radio in over about a year and a half, not even about a year, I've I've interviewed about uh 450 people from all over the world within our fitness industry. So it's given me a pretty wide breadth of exactly like what's going on, who's doing what. Um and it's been a lot of fun. So yeah, man, it's a little bit of my journey. So it's been awesome.

That's great. I mean, it sounds like your environment now is very different to the one that I'm in, but certainly sounds like a great place to be. Um, I just want to delve a little bit more into your CrossFit background. Um I was asked why you decided in 2008 to open a CrossFit and not to do your own thing.

Yeah, it uh so I I started CrossFit in 2008. Uh I started at a gym, uh Chris uh Lane Fitness. So Chris Lane, who was the founder and his wife, uh, it was actually Jack Lane's grandnephew, if people know who that is. He's like one of the him and our old sports nigger essentially who created modern day fitness and the popularity thereof. So I was in his gym and I was training and I was quite enjoying it. Um it really brought me back to my my college athletic days where I felt like I was training with the team, I was training really hard. I also saw significant growth in his gym. I mean, he was in downtown San Francisco. This thing went from zero to 150 clients in a matter of like six months. And, you know, I looked at the systems and saw what was going on. Like, you know, I can do this, you know, I can I can build this out. And uh so when Traver, you know, I that seed already kind of in my head. And so when I when Traver asked me about it, I'm like, you know, it sounds like a really cool job, you know, is doing CrossFit. And I just love the modality of it, you know, uh, whatever people may say, some there's plenty of critics out there of CrossFit, but I do believe is one of the best training methodologies when applied correctly.

What do you put its success down to? Um Is it that, what you just mentioned, or are there other aspects that really play a part in it?

I guess you have to look yeah, I guess you have to look at it from two different perspectives. One would be the training itself, right? Uh I think when it originally came out and what Greg Glassman, the founder, did, you know, at CrossFit.com is he gave it, he gave it all away for free. He he put all of his information, he wrote in the CrossFit Journal, it was just an incredible amount of information that he just gave away. And so it really people started to grab a hold of it and it revolutionized the way that people trained. You know, the the whole functional fitness thing started really its popularity with CrossFit. So, but the funny thing about it, it was actually meant to be done in a private setting, one-on-one. It wasn't supposed to be done in group. At some point, uh, someone started doing group classes, and I think maybe it was Craig out of CrossFit Vancouver, or maybe it was Andy out of CrossFit LA. I don't know, but it was one of these early-on, really super, super early adopters. Um, and then the community thing started happening, right? And if anyone has ever been in a CrossFit gym, if there's one thing it's really famous for, um no one can argue with that, is how it built community within a gym, um, within a, you know, um a local uh area. And I think that was the biggest thing was it was different. Um, it built community, uh, it drove results, right? And it was sticky. People really liked it. You know, it wasn't something that you would just join, you do a couple sessions with a personal trainer, or maybe you know, you get on a spin bike and you know, you sweat, but it became part of someone's life. And it it got to that point where you know the the old joke is uh you'll know if somebody does CrossFit because they won't shut shut up about it, right? And that's that's a good thing, is when people start defining themselves as what do you do? I'm a CrossFitter, right? That's when it's that's when you know you got something special. And I think that was kind of the groundswell that that culture of CrossFit is really what made it grow quickly. Because, you know, for about four years, man, I didn't do any marketing. None, zero, right? Maybe I hit the maybe I hit the road and I talked to different business owners, invited them in for for free trials. But once that thing started growing, um there was no advertising, it was unnecessary, you know? Wow. So 2010, around about then, was when it really exploded. Yeah, I think that's really when it it started to to to pick up quickly.

Um and then it had a Do you put that growth down to just that tipping point of you know, this community is getting bigger and more and more people are talking about it, more and more people are proud to do CrossFit and want to tell people, and then it just reached this tipping point and it just exploded. Is that do you think what caused that in 2010?

I think so. Yeah, I do believe that. I think that you know, there there's when you look at the growth of anything, there's a very early adopters, right, who are willing to try anything, kind of test anything new. Um, and then you kind of get that second phase of people, and they're the loudmouths, right? They're the ones who won't stop talking about it. And uh once it kind of hit that phase, uh, then it just became something uh really unstoppable. You know, I think the only reason that maybe, and I'm sure you'll get to this question too, that maybe it's it's slowed down a little bit. I think 2015 or 16 was the first year where they actually closed more affiliates than opened was due to a lack of business systems.

Interesting. Interesting. Can you talk a little bit about what CrossFit offers a affiliate? That's the correct terminology, right? Affiliate. You wouldn't call it a franchise.

Yeah, no, it's an affiliate. Uh so I I signed up, you know, for my affiliation in 2008, I believe, and I paid a thousand dollars, right? And I continued, you know, as grandfathered in, so we paid a thousand dollars per year um every year. It's pretty cheap. It's really cheap. Yeah. And but you don't you don't get much more than that. You get the right to use the name. Okay. And and that's really about it. You um you do get like, I guess I don't know, it never worked to my benefit, but they would say you get access to the attorneys, you're paying for their attorneys who protect the brand. So other than that, that's it. You get to use the name, you get to put it on your door.

Okay, so maybe not so cheap then. Yeah. But then you know, you still have that brand, obviously, and you know, people still start to recognize that around the world. Okay, so um, if you compare it to, say, you know, an F-45 where it costs perhaps $50,000, but they give you everything that you need, right? They give you all the systems, like the programs, and everything else. Okay, it's way different.

Yeah.

Go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, are there any lessons that we can take from um the way CrossFit boxes are run and what CrossFit does as a company that any gym could perhaps take from that? Yeah, I think you have community, of course.

Yeah, I I think we're starting to see, you know, the gyms that that stuck around. And you know, when I sold it, it was in 2017. It was it was the best year the gym, it was very healthy. Um But I I there's a lot of things. We made a lot of mistakes, right? We were paving new ground, really, um, trying things, failing, trying another. And so there's a lot, there's so much to learn by other people's failures, right? If you really want to take a look at it. Um, I think the biggest thing and and where the focus now resides is is that that that client experience. I think that's the biggest thing that people have. You know, people love their CrossFit classes. They love going to the same class that they always go to at noon or 5:30, seeing the same people, um, seeing the same coach, everyone knows each other. And the ones that are successful are the ones that really invested in the relationships with the clients. And, you know, that starts from the very, very first contact uh with the person, right? Is how are you making a unique and great experience from the very, very first point of contact through um maybe creating relationships with a coach, um, having people do a private, you know, an on-ramping program that's more private training now than just throwing them in class and hoping for the best. Um, and then focusing on retention. That was something that wasn't even in the conversation uh five years ago, or like retention. Who cares? You know, I got so many people come through my door, it doesn't matter. And I'm starting to see that too with some of the bigger chains that are franchises that are growing, they're growing so fast, but no one's looking, you know, what's going on on the back door, right? Um, what's the churn rate? Why are they leaving? What's going on the first 90 days? And I think that's something that people can learn from CrossFit is is uh, you know, the great gyms, the ones that do really well, have their clients last for a very long time because they really focus on the same thing you focus on, Jack, is a great client experience, building those relationships um and really knowing your clients, you know, that that's the biggest thing.

You mentioned that it's slowed down. Uh what do you see the future of CrossFit being? Is it something that'll always be there?

I hope so. I do. Uh I have doubts at times. I think uh, you know, I like you you mentioned F-45. They've taken a lot of things um from many different organizations, including CrossFit, and they're doing a great job. They built a better mousetra, you know, better systems. Um they they put some technology into it. They've made it more um digestible to the masses. I think CrossFit is always gonna be around. Uh I think there's the hardcore people who always love it, you know. Uh, but I don't think it became, I don't think they focus enough on business systems um and supporting the the affiliates on the ground level. And I think that inevitably is gonna is gonna be a slow decline. But you never know. It can turn around, right? You know, there's emerging markets like Asia, right? Like where you are. Maybe now, you know, if someone took the reins new and really developed the system supported affiliates uh in the right way, then it can thrive. But with what I see now and the gym owners that I work with now, they just need a lot of help. And uh, you know, like I said, there's you know, since 2015, it's it's been kind of a slow, steady decline.

So I think I would say the same for Asia as well. Yeah, I mean it is, yeah, these things are typically gonna work in some kind of cycles, right? It's hard for someone to dominate so strongly for decades in any industry, I think. And certainly uh fitness isn't isn't any different. I think in Asia we've seen the same. I think you know, 2012, 2013, we saw a few opening in Bangkok. I don't think one has opened for a while, and one or two have closed recently. Um, I think that's the case in other sort of big markets here as well. So I think in some ways it's kind of mirrored the states, which actually kind of brings me on to my next question. So I think in Asia you often see Western trends that usually start in LA or New York, slowly finding their way to Asia. So we're perhaps sort of three, four, five years behind. If you look at things like uh rhythm cycling, you know, indoor cycling, or the rumble sort of water bag box thing. It just takes a few years to get here. So with that in mind, is there anything that you see in the US which is kind of right at the cusp, sort of just about to happen or just starting, any trends kicking off that you think perhaps we might see in Asia sort of two, three years down the line?

Yeah, I think uh yeah, it's tough. I, you know, I'm I'm really big into technology too and where that's going. And I think the you know, the models that are embracing technology now are are going to do a great job. I mean, we can come back. I've I spent about 48 hours with uh the people at F-45 last week at Flew to LA and got to see how everything worked, what they're planning. It was it was very eye-opening. And that's gonna be tough to beat, you know, that model. I mean, they're just gonna grow like wildfire. And I do believe they are. I think from the boutique gym uh model, I do think that the higher end you can go, right, in client experience and being um, you know, really devoted to that and pricing yourself accurately for that, I think that's gonna be part of it. I think that you know, we're starting to see now the That the average, you know, classical like fitness trainer who, you know, comes in, drinks their coffee, you know, how's their person doing the bicep curls while they're checking their text messages, right? I thought that's that's that's not gonna be round because there's you know um things like now it's become obsolete. Yeah. I mean, it it makes sense. You know, there's there's uh things like Peloton, right? Or uh tonal T O N A L is there on my podcast not too long ago. They're they just got a second round of funding, they're blown up, right? It's like these these home devices where you know you can pay one lump fee and then you can do all the training and guidance you need from a virtual space. So, you know, we're starting to see that differentiation between um, you know, if hey, if you're just kind of a commodity-based fitness, right, where you're just training people in and you know, everything's a widget, um, then you're probably you're gonna get you're gonna get pushed out. But if you're looking for that, that but what we can't take away is the value of human relationships, right? You just can't. So if you're really investing in people, um, you know, hey, you should know how someone's dog is doing, right? Or uh, you know, how many kids they have. Hey, I heard Susie graduated from college, right? Congratulations. Or, hey, how's that bum knee? How are you doing there, right? Hey, I thought you said you had a gluten allergy, right? What's going on there? I read this new article, I think you should read it, right? You know, all like that really getting to know the clients, I think is a big part of it. Um yeah, I it's hard to say, man. It really is because I look at the way technology is coming into the business, and it can come from so many different ways, like, you know, wearables, AI, um VR, AR, uh 3D printing has a place, um, you know, genetic testing, um, God, man, you know, real-time biometrics, like all this stuff that can come in, you don't know, it's all happening. You just don't know what's gonna what's gonna explode.

And right, right. It's a really interesting space of thing. Who do you think is most vulnerable to this? I mean, we mentioned the sort of uh rep counting, personal trainers, they might get pushed out just by technology. But do you what what can boutiques do? Um, what can premium offerings do? Or say, you know, even chain gyms, what can they do, do you think, to sort of somewhat protect themselves? Does it just throw themselves into tech as well? Or is it perhaps just more in that human relationship?

I think being aware of it and embracing it, you know, um, anytime you see a wave of of evolution, you know, it's there, there's two people. There's people who resist it and get run over, right? And then there's people who embrace it and hopefully ride a wave. And, you know, the thing is you you have to have the foresight. Um, like, you know, if I still own my gym, I'd be experimenting experimenting with a um, you know, some kind of VR setup where people can come in and off hours and get a little workout in, right? Led by, you know, maybe one of my instructors on demand, right? Or something like that. I'd be experimenting with that. Um I love that stuff, so maybe I'm not normal. I geek out on it harder than other people, but I'd be checking I'd be checking it out, right? I'd also be looking at all the solutions that you have to um enhance the uh interactions with your clients. You know, there's a lot of like great services, um, namely N-AA-M L Y or Coach AI, where it's all focused on how do we optimize the relationship between the client and the gym business or the trainer? You know, how do we get access to them, you know, the other 23 hours of the day? You know, maybe it's through SMS or um, you know, which is texting or you know, various forms to do that. Texting seems to be the best because that's where you meet people where they are. But how how do you do that, right? How do you how do you use technology to increase the the uh value of of your interactions? I think that's it, that's where I would be looking at really quite a bit too. And and therefore retention, you know, that's the biggest thing is um everyone talks about lead generation, dude. Everybody, right? Like, how do I get more leads, right? But does anyone pay attention to, okay, what's your churn rate? How many people are going out the back door? Because it's expensive getting new clients. It's hard, right? But no one's looking at like, well, you know, it's they call it the vanity metrics. Like how many members do you have, right? Um how big is your gym? Uh all that stuff doesn't matter. It's I would be looking at like what's the average lifetime of your client, what's the average value of your clients, right? And what what are you doing to increase those numbers? Because that's what builds a really, really strong business.

And not just in terms of um, you know, uh it's not just in terms of sort of, okay, we're losing these paying clients, but in terms of building the community that we've already talked about. If you have new people coming in, you know, every other month and it's just yeah, this this big churn, how do you expect to build any kind of viable community, right? You know, if you can build a core of customers which stay with you for a long time, right? That is a huge part of what a community is. I mean, I talked about it in my last podcast, but like what is community? I mean, it's a it's a group of people who have shared values and shared interests, yeah, and they spend time together. Um, you know, that that is kind of what a community is. And I think if people are just coming and going, and that that that that is also for staff as well, you know, I think you need to look at retention of staff in terms of how you build a community. So I think it's absolutely true. I think ultimately you have to look how many people are leaving and how many people are joining. And if it's the same amount, that's not very good, you know.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Less people are leaving than are joining, then you know, over time you're gonna build a successful business. And I think, you know, if you have something strong and you're doing the right things, if even if one person leaving is two people are joining, you know, over six months, over a year, and over two years, you've got a strong, healthy, successful business. So I absolutely agree that you need to be looking at retention. Any other interesting examples of companies that are using technology? Any like specific examples? You mentioned Paloton, obviously, it's fascinating what they're doing. Obviously, one of the leaders in their space. Anything else that you see like that is awesome?

Yeah, um I think anything that enhances the like the actual experience within a gym. You know, we talked about like there's a I I talked to a lot of companies that are building like really focusing on that first 90 days. You know, that that seems to be a very key number. I've I've heard talk to very large, you know, um franchise groups, and they're like, you know, I would ask about retention, and the question and the answer would always be something like, well, if they get past the first 90 days, they stay for, you know, a year and a half. Interesting. Well, what about those 90 days? Like what's going on? Like it's like this big question mark. Well, it's just the 90 days. Well, you know, I think that if you can really focus on the first 90 days for so many reasons, because that um is where relationships are built, and that's when behavioral change takes place. And ultimately, that's what we're trying to do, is right, we're just trying to change behavior so that people habitually um shift and and start, you know, living a healthier, more vibrant life. And that has to be done over time. But that first 90 days, man, if you can there's a lot of technology that really helps with that because it's tough. I mean, you're a gym owner, you know, you know, to keep track of, especially as you grow when you get to like that 150 mark in in clients at a boutique gym, it becomes very challenging to keep up with everything, right? So you have a couple options. You can um embrace technology, right? Start using that. Um, you can also start um heavily uh leaning on your coaches and your staff to build those relationships with you, right? And then you also have to invest in the relationship between you and your staff. So, you know, it's it gets be so if if technology can help with that whole swirling situation, um, then that's the stuff I'm really interested in. And all the other stuff is great, but ultimately for when it comes to gym owners and business owners at the ground floor, it's you you've got to be focusing on that first 90 days.

Okay, so yeah, tech can play a role in that. You know, I think you can use things like email marketing as well to sort of help to reinforce that. Are there any other tips that are sort of non-tech related that you think gyms can do in that initial 90 days? Or let's call it the initial, you know, 100 days, maybe that first little 10 days before they actually come, maybe after they put that for a session, something like that, and then the first 90 days is a natural client.

Yeah, I think um, you know, if you can, depending on what different model you have, like some different models will have an acceptable churn rate, right? Uh you're like, well, that's okay. I don't mind losing 10% per month because I'm just gonna keep people coming in and you know, um, my model is like that. But I do believe that having some sort of one-on-one um series of interactions up front, you know, maybe it's three anyway between three and ten sessions where they really start to form a relationship with somebody um who's on your staff, you or your staff. I mean, ultimately, let's let's let's be real is that for most of us as fitness professionals, um going into a gym isn't a big deal, right? We've probably been doing it our whole lives. We maybe we look forward to it. For the large majority, uh the the vast masses, it's it can be intimidating and scary, and it's a huge change in behavior, right? Behavior. And um, you know, we always look at like what's the first person first thing that we always do when we get people into we start writing a workout. Okay, you're gonna do squats and push-ups and pull-ups, right? But is that like if if you were gonna guarantee results for somebody, Jack, right? If someone came in and they said, you know, I will, if you follow my plan, I will guarantee results for you in 90 days. Guarantee it. The only thing that truly to me would do that is changing their nutrition. And why do we always start with workouts and then hope that we do nutrition later? Right? Maybe we'll get to it when the time is right. Why don't we lead with the things that have the most significant change, which is, you know, nutrition, habits, all those things. So, you know, really being upfront and honest with your clients up front, be like, hey, here's what here's how we do things, here's why we're different. Um, we're not just gonna throw you into a workout and hope for the best. We're here to make you, you know, we're we're committed to a long-term shift in your health and the way we're in and and being honest and authentic with that up front, too. You know, uh, I've run my fair share of six-week challenges, right, as a marketing tool. Um, but I tried my best to educate people up front, be like, hey, so this is your first step, right? And you know, transformation doesn't really happen over six weeks or four weeks or eight weeks or 12 weeks for that matter, right? It happens over six to 12 to 18 months where people really start to change. So um being authentic with your marketing message, because yeah, sure, you know, Joe down the street is probably going to offer some cheap challenge, right? Maybe grab some potential clients of yours. Um, but to be longstanding, you really have to be uh authentic and look at the long term for your clients.

Absolutely. Yeah, couldn't agree more. And we have very much the same approach with our 60-day challenges. You know, we have a big um uh kind of sessions, a kickoff, a kickstart seminar, we call it. And we say, look, this is like this is a first step, guys. Like don't think after 60 days that's it, job done. You know, just get on with your life and stop training and stop eating. Well, we really want this to be a kickstart to healthier habits. And I think by having that authentic message, you start to attract the kind of people that are actually gonna hang around. Yeah. If you're like the the you know, the 30-day six-pack challenge, come in and get a six-pack in 30 days, you're gonna naturally attract for people that are looking for that quick fix, right? Yeah. So I think by yeah, sort of knowing what you stand for, by having values and communicating those well, you actually attract the kind of clients that are gonna be good for your business and the ones that you want. And I would say the same for recruiting staff as well. You know, if you have those strong values about who you who you want in your company, why you want them, and what you're all trying to do, I think again you're gonna attract the right kind of people and repel the wrong people. So, yeah, some great um, yeah, some great insights there. Thank you. Any other sort of uh common mistakes that you see gyms making and anything that they can perhaps do to avoid those pitfalls?

Yeah, I I think you touch on something really powerful, Jack, is that um really understanding who your ideal client, who your ideal uh staff member is, and don't be afraid to say no to everybody else, right? Uh, you know, there tends to be, especially if you're getting started, whether you're a trainer or a gym owner, is the the scarcity mindset of like I'm gonna take anybody who walks in my door, right? And then what happens is like you're not serving somebody properly because you're trying to do too many things, you're spread too thin. And then uh people leave, they go out, they have a bad experience, they tell more people about it. I would say don't don't be scared to niche down, right? Really hone in on a specialty. I've seen a lot of people with great success um serving people just anyone over the age of 55. That's all they do, right? That's what their gym is focused on. It's focus on that experience. It really is advantageous from not only creating a specialized experience for the client, but also your marketing message and um referrals tend to pour in, right? And I think that's a big thing, even from, you know, even if you're in a market where you're like, you know, downtown New York, I'll just take everybody, right? I mean, you look at someone like a great example. This is a great example, is Mark Fisher, right? So Mark Fisher Fitness is probably one of the best uh community-based gyms I know of. But if you go look at his stuff, check out his YouTube channel, um, all these things, you'll see how committed he is to a specific demographic, right? It's all over the place. And you know what? They flock to him. They are loyal. Um, he doesn't, you know, his marketing is, I would imagine he doesn't have to do a whole lot, right? Although he's a master marketer. Um, but he positioned himself so well, right, with a particular audience that was underserved. And I think that's a big thing is don't be afraid to to niche down and really focus on a specific market. Do you think people are scared sometimes to do it?

Oh, for sure. You know, they feel I'm shrinking my market here. I'm bouncing at 0.1% of the market. So the bigger the market, the more chance of success.

Yeah, it's scary. Yeah, it is scary. I mean, if you think like, you know, why would I why would I say no to people? Why would I tell people this isn't the ideal fit? Why would I send someone down the street, right? When I know I can help them. And that's, you know, from a you see that a lot with young trainers. They're like, well, I can help everybody. Okay, well, you're gonna end up helping nobody, right? And you know, so really carve that out. And I think that can be done at any level. I think um, you know, I can give you a lot of different examples of Robert Lincoln out of Sacramento, California, who just deals with that over 55, you know, um uh Curtis Jackson out of San Diego, who just deals with, you know, teenage athletes, right? Uh just find, you know, who you work well with. Um, but in that beginning point, I don't want to dissuade anybody. At that beginning point, you have to work with a wide variety of people, right? You have to. You have to see who you like working with, who resonates with you, right? Um, you have to go through that. And then after that, then you know exactly who you're looking for and you can really change um your whole business to go after them.

I think, like you said, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, the true test of whether you've got there or not is if you're happy to send someone down the road. Yeah. You know, they come for you and you're like, we're not quite the gym for you. These people are, this is how to find them and send them out the door. You know, that's the true test of like you have got there, you know what your niche is, and you know this person isn't right for you. And I think people will respect that. Um, and I think you know, when you get to that place, I think you know, good things will come. But it's a process, as you said. And it's interesting you should mention coaches. I was gonna touch on that as well when you started talking about uh niche, niching down, as you uh as we call it in the UK. I think niche in in in America, we call it niche. Yeah, we talked to coaches about at the very beginning of their careers. I said, look, don't worry about it now, but start to think about the people that you want to work with, the people that you can help the most. Because sometimes when we asked when we first opened up, we asked our coaches for their sort of areas of specialty, we're creating their profiles, and some have like 10 areas of specialty. I was like, Yeah, we need to bring that down a little bit, you know, even one is good. We can all help with weight loss, you know, we can all help you get stronger. Like, you know, most personal trainers can do that, but you know, what specifically do you want to work with? Yeah, is it like is it female clients, is it younger athletes? Um you know, is it uh people who are very overweight? Is it sports performance? Like, try and really think about the kind of people that you want to work with and they will inevitably come to you. So I think you have some strong messages there. Any other kind of final tips for studio owners that you can think of? I mean, you just work with so many, it's always great to speak to sort of consultants and mentors because you get this deep insight into what's going on. Is there anything else that you're like, yeah, I think all channel should remember this?

Yeah, you know, I think I would just really once again emphasize double down on relationships, right, in in every aspect. Really invest um in your staff, really invest in um their future, and and that'll pay off for you. Um, you know, I can say that from both um when that worked for me and when I didn't do it, maybe I chose the wrong and it it it hurt, right? Financially, emotionally, all those different ways. But when I got it right, it was amazing, right? And uh that just understand that um things don't happen overnight, right? It's uh, you know, there's a lot of predatory uh business coaches out there who will promise you, you know, amazing results in 90 days, right? Like, hey, we'll get you to six figures in 90 days, right? And uh I can tell you right now, business just doesn't work like that. You know, sure you can you can come up and be like, you can tell me a story about a unicorn, right? Um, where you know this this magical thing happened. Um you could probably even say it about CrossFit in 2012, right? When it just kind of blew up for us. Uh but um for most people, that's not gonna take place. And, you know, getting in really good business habits, um, changing a relationship with failure, uh, understanding that a short-term failure is not a total collapse. It's just a learning experience and you will survive as long as you learn. And that that's the biggest thing is really shifting the mindset uh of a fitness entrepreneur into understanding the long game, um, planting the seeds that will bear fruit later. Um, but you gotta do it. And you gotta get in good business habits, just like you just the parallels to fitness and business are almost laughably obvious, right? Right. So you gotta have good fitness habits. You gotta, you know, drink your water, right? You gotta do your mobility, you gotta um, you know, move every day. Same with business is you gotta be both, you know, taking care of your clear clients, you gotta be out there escalating people through your funnel, um, and you gotta be taking care of your staff. You know, if you're if you're looking at those things, then uh on a daily, if not weekly basis, you're gonna be successful. You just will. It may take longer for some than others.

Yeah, I was just about to say the same thing. I mean, how ironic is it that we're telling clients, yeah, you can't get results in sixty days, guys. You know, this needs to be a lifetime thing. Like, give me a year and then I'll get your results. And then you're like, yeah, I want to turn my business around and make six figures in 30 days. It's like the irony is there, staring you in the face, right? There, there are so many parallels, you're absolutely right. So I usually end our podcasts with um predictions for the next three years in the Asian market. So obviously, um, you know, you're in the US, I'd be interested to hear your predictions for the next three years there. And then perhaps four, five, six years down the line, we might see them in Asia. So, what do you see happening in the next three years?

Uh three years, I I think that we'll continue to see rapid growth for um organizations like F-45, Soul Cycle, Orange Theory, um, the franchise model will continue to grow, uh, Barry's Boot Camp, uh, you name it, there's a bunch of them. Um I think you will start to see uh the relationship, um, you know, the the technology of relationships will really start to push forward greatly. Um and uh yeah, you know, three years, I don't know how much is truly gonna change, but I do think, you know, I think the like those big franchises are just on too strong of a trajectory, right? They're just uh they're just gonna be everywhere. And uh it's not a bad thing. You know, I always talk like on average, you see, and this is a gracious percentage, but you know, at least here in the States or North America, is that I would say no more than 20% of the population has a gym um membership or personal trainer. So what about the 80%, right? That that's where the odd that's where the huge opportunity is. How do we get into people's homes? Maybe it's through corporate wellness, right? I think that's a huge uh market that's gonna, it already is. It's it's like a four billion dollar market, right? Um, so corporate wellness, um I think opportunities for um gyms to uh get into settings like hotels, I think is a big market potentially. Um yeah, and then anything that's on demand, you know, kind of on demand experience with training. So yeah, it's exciting, man. It's a really exciting time to be in the industry. It's so young, right? The industry is really young, it's only about 50 years old, and now we're starting to see like um people are like, oh wow, you can actually the top high, you know, two, three percent are actually making a ton of money, you know, which is yeah, we want fitness professionals to make money. Um more of them, yeah. A lot of them don't.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really, yeah, really interesting to hear your thoughts. I absolutely agree. I mean, eight years into my career, and I'm just so excited for where it's going. Yeah, I really can't wait to see where it goes. And you know, you talk about um 80% of people not having a gym membership. Well, in Thailand, that's 99% of people. In Singapore, it's 94%. And in Indonesia, 0.1% have a gym membership. So 99.9% do not have a gym membership. So I was speaking to a gym operator there, and he is just so pumped and so excited for what can happen in the next sort of five, 10, 20 years there. So, yeah, certainly a very interesting and exciting time. Finally, Eric, where can we find out more about you? How do we contact you? And maybe just tell us a little bit about your two podcasts as well.

Yeah. Yeah, so there's, you know, there's so many different places to find me. I think honestly, the best place is probably Facebook. I know that seems like uh I'm 42. So people are like, oh, of course you know it's Facebook. Why aren't you on Instagram? Well, I am, but I just spend most of my time on Facebook. And uh, you know, between um you can check out if you're if you're someone who would be interested in having your own um accredited online certification. We're at certifiedcoursecreation.com. Um, my podcasts are the future of fitness and fitness split radio. And uh yeah, you can find a lot of my um content on fitnessprofessionalonline.com and then uh eventually in the next few months we'll have our website out for level five mentors. So um got a few things going on.

That's awesome, Erica. We'll leave all of those links in the show notes. So if anyone wishes to reach out and connect, they can do so easily. Thank you very much. It's really been a pleasure to connect with you, Eric, and to chat with you over the last few weeks as we've done so. Um hope to connect with you in person at some point. I will let you know if I'm coming to the US. And yeah, please do the do the same if you're here in Asia. That'd be a lot of fun, man. I appreciate it. Thank you, Jack. Okay, awesome. Take care, Eric. Thank you.

Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. It's your host, Eric Malzone, and I have a quick favor to ask. Actually, three favors. So, number one, if you're a fan of our show, I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes, please, and subscribe to our show. Please, please, please. It means so much to us. It's so important. And then give us a favorable review. We would really, really appreciate it. And uh, I can't tell you how much it means and helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day, and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel, our fitness marketing alliance, and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released, share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us. And we're we put a lot of work into these episodes uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry. So that would mean a lot. And that's it. So we have some big plans coming up for this show. I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes. But thank you so much for listening. It means so much. And uh if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I love to hear from everybody. Eric, E R I C at Fitness Marketing Alliance.com