Edward Hertzman - Why Are the Most Successful Companies Hiding? Athletech CEO on Repositioning the Industry

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[00:02:56] Hey, Hertzman. Welcome back to the Future of Fitness, my friend. It's been a minute. How are you? It's great to be here, Eric. Thank you. Yeah, it's always a pleasure. Of course, we're going to talk about the Athletic Innovation Summit. This is going to be going into year two now. Big deal. But you and I talk fairly often, usually over a couple of quick text messages. So, actually, it's been a while since we've caught up like this. But, you know, whenever I – you're always a good litmus for me because you talk to so many executives, right?

[00:03:21] Coming off January, you have that big event in Washington, D.C. You ring the bell, right? All those things are going on. So, you really – in the short period of time you've been in this industry, you've really accumulated probably one of the most extensive networks that I know. And you have some frustrations. I mean, that's great. That's one thing. I know you like the industry overall. You're very positive about it. But I know there's frustrations that have been blowing up with you over the past few years and things you've been noticing with conversation because you're on the phone all the time. Always on meetings, right? It's hard to get done. It's crazy. You're always busy.

[00:03:51] So, clue us in, man. What's going on with our industry now? What's the grade you're giving us and where do you think we could be improving? So, well, that's a hard first question, Eric. So, thank you for that. It's a monstrous question. Yeah, there's a lot more impact there. Let's do it. You know, I think – I stand by this thesis that two things could be true at the same time. This industry, the graph is up. The chart is up. Money is flowing in.

[00:04:19] The addressable market is increasing. Outside talent is coming here. Positive, positive, positive. And it's still a very young industry. And it needs to professionalize itself. It needs to focus on profitability. It needs to change the public's perception. It needs to change the investor perception. You know, it doesn't help when you have headlines, you know, the past couple weeks about a planet fitness or an exponential fitness. The stocks are down.

[00:04:48] I am not here to critique those companies. You know, we are all very quick to point fingers. We're all Monday morning quarterbacks. We don't know what it's like to run multibillion-dollar enterprises and the ups and downs in any organization. But we need positive headlines. And I think one of the frustrating things that I would say that I deal with is there is so many talented executives, so many successful companies, but those are not the ones that are out there pitching me all day long.

[00:05:15] The people that are pitching me all day long are pre-revenue, pre-dream, pre-this, or recently bankrupt. And the companies that are heads down working, you know, hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in valuations don't want to show up to the industry events, don't want to show up on TV, don't want to show up to the advocacy and the fly-ins.

[00:05:41] And it boggles my mind a little bit. That's what's frustrating. I think there's so much good, but I still think for an industry that preaches community and collaboration at the B2B executive level, we still have a far way to go. Why do you think that is? You must have a hypothesis on this, right? Like, why are some of the biggest industry executives with the most successful, most profitable companies, arguably some of the biggest names? Some of them aren't even known. Like, if you ask a consumer who Playlist is, they're not going to know who it is, right?

[00:06:10] But if you look at their conglomeration of companies, they will. So yeah, who are the ones that... It's interesting you bring up Playlist, because I'm quite friendly with Fritz, and a couple years ago, you wouldn't even know what he looked like. And I've been on his case that, you know, you're, you know, and they get both sides of the coin with ClassPass and stuff like that, but the size of the company, the amount of people they touch on the consumer, the amount of clients they have now with the merger of EGYM.

[00:06:35] And I say, Fritz, you got to be out there. You got to be telling your story. Don't let other people tell your story. And you see him. He's speaking again this year, and it'll be him and Max from Catterton and Philip from Egypt. Because I said, I don't want you to talk about why Playlist is great. No one can make sense of this deal. Get on stage and walk us through this merger. Walk us through, you know, Mark from Catterton. Why you not only deployed Capital once, but Capital again. What is the play here? Like, explain to us. And I think that is, again, that's the type of thing you would turn on CNBC and someone would kind of walk you through and you would have the analyst talk about it.

[00:07:03] So that's the type of level of conversation I look for. But even he started to show up at the events and show up because he understands the importance of that. Why does this industry not do it? I think for a little, there's a couple different reasons. And I got to be careful not to seem overly negative how I say this. People that come from other industries understand the importance of collaboration.

[00:07:30] They understand, hey, we're going to have an association where we're going to sit together. We're going to talk about tariffs. We're going to talk about children product safety. We're going to talk about marketing issues. We're going to talk about raw material. We're going to talk about all the things and how many people are members of YPO. And in that moment, you're able to kind of let down your guard and say, hey, I have this business opportunity, this business challenge. Help me, peers.

[00:07:53] There's almost a sense of like, I'm better than everybody. I don't need any help. I know the answers to everything. And no one has a monopoly on good ideas. It's like, why does Bill Gates go to Davos and speak? I keep saying this, like he's rich. He's successful because he wants to be a better version. There is no pencil that cannot metaphorically be sharpened. Could he make the industry better, the world better, his organizations better, himself better? Like, do we not believe that we should be reading, that we should be networking?

[00:08:22] Like, we should all be students of the world and the ground is moving so fast. If you tell me you can't pull one nugget out from up here, I would say that's crazy talk. But I think people are like, well, I'm so successful. What am I going to learn from the guy next to me? And this is where I'm trying to change it. You're right. But maybe the person next to you is not who you think it is, which is why at the event, and I know you want to bring this up, we talk about, here's crazy, Eric.

[00:08:48] We talk about this is a customer service. This is a hospitality service industry. Yeah, I agree. You know, every time I go to the Waldorf, and I know that's a crazy example for lunch, Mr. Hertz, welcome back. They sent me in the same table. The same waitress helped me. Iced tea, one brown sugar, salad, dairy-free, right? A flat white, almond milk, and it makes you feel good.

[00:09:15] Can I tell you the last time I've checked into a gym and they said, welcome back, Eddie. Hey, Eddie, how you doing? Oh, you know, how did that trip go? They don't know who I am. I went to a boxing gym. You don't show up for three months. I could be dead. Did they call me? No. No. If we think customer service is scanning an iPhone, we got another thing coming to us. And so who is best in class in this? Well, let's bring in Daniel Balud, their CEO. Let's bring in the CEO of John George because you know what?

[00:09:44] These are Michelin-starred. They're in the business of hospitality. We keep talking about real estate. Okay, well, I don't want to hear real estate trends from Malzone Pilates. I want to hear real estate trends from related, the organizations that are building the freaking buildings, that are investing billions of dollars in this. We talk about consumer insights. I don't want to hear it even from Fritz. I don't want to hear it. I want to hear it from Meta.

[00:10:11] And yes, MindBody probably has more aggregate data and ABC and Explore. There are some guys that really can give a macro overview. So I do want to walk that back a little bit. But Meta knows everything we're doing. And so they can tell us what's happening, all the different generational differences, what people are searching for, what people are tagging, what people are sharing. And by the way, is it a reel? Is it a carousel? Is it? They know. So you're telling me we can't learn something from, you know, we're going to have Katzenberg speak. It hasn't been announced yet.

[00:10:39] And I hope that, you know, nothing changes in the next 48 hours. But you're not going to learn something from that guy? Come on. About storytelling? The power of brand Disney and Pixar and Dreamer. These are companies that are on another level. So I just think it's, I don't know. And I also, there's one thing I'll add is I think people, I don't know if they're embarrassed or they don't like the word fitness and gym.

[00:11:08] It almost has like a negative connotation. It's like, oh, I'm like a Venice Beach gym bro. And so everyone's running from that. Instead of saying, look, how do we rebrand? We need like a got milk moment as an industry. Like rebrand how people view us. HFA is going to be speaking. And this is tremendous for them to do in June. And you know what their topic is? The perception gap. Why consumers don't trust the fitness industry. And I'm like, Mike, I love you, bro.

[00:11:38] This is what I've been telling you for five years. Get in front of it. You represent the industry. Be honest with the industry. Not that we are great. Yeah, there are great things about us. But this is the God honest truth that the consumers are saying in third party research. And I think that's the type of thing we need to hear. You know, I pay a coach not to tell me I'm great, to criticize me for 90 minutes every other week. Like the rebrand is really interesting, Eddie. And I've been talking about this and thinking about it many moons. And I've even thought about renaming this podcast. I'm like, well, what do I call it? Call it the future of wellness?

[00:12:08] No, that sucks. I don't want to do that, right? Like, no. So I stayed the course. You know what? Like I've heard from people now. And they're like, oh, I'm so happy that I found a truly fitness industry podcast. Like, haven't gone to wellness. Haven't gone to, you know, sure, I'll do some health science. But really, I'm sticking to the lane. And nine years in, I feel like everything's cyclical too. Yes, I feel like fitness is kind of starting to reinvent itself in the consumer's eye, especially with the younger generations. Now, can we use a got milk moment?

[00:12:38] Yes. Do we need to change the name? I don't think so. I mean, that's something I've been thinking about for years, right? It's like, well, do we need a complete rebrand or rename of the industry? But I think it's starting to happen in a very kind of natural and organic way that consumers are starting to look at it a little bit differently. Because you're right. It's like the Venice Beach Bros, right? You think about fitness. You think about, I'm aging myself here, probably like infomercials late at night, right? Yeah. So, you know, devices and tricks and six-week challenges and all that. But it's changing. Right.

[00:13:08] But it's, you know, I don't want to speak on behalf of John George because I don't intimately know that organization. But I'm sure they would say that they serve food, that they're in the restaurant industry, they're in the hospitality industry. Now, there's Michelin Starge restaurants and then there's fast food and then there's fast casual and there's buffets. And there's good food and bad food. And yes, these are lifestyle brands and we get all that. But I thought a lot about what you're saying too. For a while, I was like so concerned about not being pigeonholed as fitness.

[00:13:35] And look, I think I've always said to you where the intersection of fitness, wellness, recovery, longevity, you know. And so, I don't even know what you call it. But it all, at the nucleus, at the core, is still, fitness is that, the thing that connects them all. Yeah. The Oman is going to speak and you're going to have the montage, you're going to have the Six Senses and you're going to have the proper hotels. And the one spot group. But you know what? They're all talking about how they're integrating fitness and wellness into those facilities. You know what I mean? That's still what the topic of conversation is.

[00:14:05] When you think about High Rocks, they're trying to say, they think competitive fitness could be the largest sport in the world. They think it's going to be an Olympic sport. And you know what? Red Bull and Center and how many brands and Puma are betting big money on this category? They're not running from it. It's sport. And so, I think there is something here which is, don't be embarrassed of the category, embrace it. It has a profound impact on commerce and job creation.

[00:14:31] I just think that, why is it that when we do have a fly-in and HFA does a fly-in, do the 10 largest CEOs not find themselves in front of the government? And maybe the fly-in is not the moment. But like when GM and auto industry need to get bailed out, CEOs of these organizations, like when Jamie Dimon, the crash in 08, they went to DC. They didn't send the bank teller. No disrespect to the bank teller.

[00:15:00] They didn't send, you know what I mean? The biggest CEOs of the world said, look, collectively we're coming together. We have a financial crisis and we're going to work through it. You know, you can't ask the government to take you seriously if we don't take ourselves seriously. Well, don't you think a part of that too is that the fitness industry is seen as a nice to have? At least up until this point, right? It's a nice thing to have. The automobile industry, I mean, we can use that example. We don't have to, we can deviate from it. But like, that's a need to have. Airline industry, we need that, right? Like, look at some of these.

[00:15:28] But fitness, I think it still is like, well, let's see, you know, if you can afford a gym membership and you can stay fit, that's great. Well, you know, I think again, part of this, and I think there's pros and cons of how I get perceived by people. You know, I come across as this New York business guy. Well, you are. You're a New York business guy. Okay, but like, I don't think any company, I've never met any company that said my goal in life is to lose money. I'm starting a business to lose money and go out of business. I've never heard anyone say that. So I think you can do good and do good.

[00:15:56] But I think you have to position it differently. How many jobs does this industry create? How much revenue are we giving back to the community? How much real estate are we now taking? And now we're not a, oh shit, I don't want to put this anchor, this tenant in here. We're anchoring developments. And if you start to look at the economic impact this has, which by the way is still a rounding error.

[00:16:19] Like if you look at like how much revenue, you know, I looked at like my previous industry, like, you know, apparel, like how much we're paying in duty to the government. That number is probably bigger than the entire revenue and fitness. But when you start looking at the impact of GLP-1s and what does that mean for people working out and the category of a whole is going this way. And when you have people displaced during COVID because they can't work, you have people that are closing things down, defaulting on leases. This is hurting communities. This is hurting jobs.

[00:16:47] And that's what local politicians care about. That's what the government cares about. And then whether you like him or don't like him, we're starting to have a government that's thinking about preventative health differently. This is one of those pillars. There is no research that says fitness is bad. No one's ever said, you know, you're going to die sooner if you exercise. Fitness and cigarettes are not the same. Fitness is good for you.

[00:17:10] And so having access to that, you know, we're going to have the YMCA and the American Diabetes Association speak because they're working. They're part of the community's role in making fitness and wellness accessible and preventative health accessible. So how many thousands of locations do the YMCA have? And I'll tell you, the nonprofits not really talked about are included in a lot of these conversations, and I aim to change that.

[00:17:37] So you can't tell me if you start going with these top topics of conversation, then we're not a vanity-only bodybuilding organization. There's real business happening here. That needs to be the conversation. It's great. And so this is a really nice segue into the event because I think conversations are what take place. And I think that's your fundamental philosophy because there's a lot of events in the industry, right? So last year, great event, dude. Great for an inaugural one.

[00:18:06] I thought it was well-received. The energy was great. Really cool. Very unique atmosphere within the actual event space. And it's New York City, right? And you brought up, like, it is a very unique place on this continent where it's like the bustle, the energy. It's just a fun place to visit. It's expensive. But it's a fun place to visit, right? It's a fun place to hold events like this. Now, other than the fact that you had me wear a suit, I really enjoyed it. And I'll wear a suit again for you because we're friends.

[00:18:36] But, you know, that was a big deal for me. But the conversations were great. So how did last year go? I mean, did it meet your expectations? What did you learn from it? And then what are you applying for this year that's going to be a little bit different? Because it's coming up soon. It's coming up in June. I mean, I'll be honest. It exceeded my expectations. You know, you're always in your mind. There's a great line. There was a movie called Chasing Bobby Fischer or something like that. And there was a line in the movie, don't move until you see it. Don't move until you see it. And in 2023, I was looking at venues in Florida.

[00:19:06] And I called Leah up and I go, Leah, we're not doing it. We're not doing it in 2020 still. I go, why? I don't see it. I don't know if I have enough people in my Rolodex, in my speed dial, enough CEOs, enough out of the industry personalities, enough greatness to do something that's not just another event.

[00:19:27] And I said, let's use the next 12 months, the next 18 months to build those relationships, to kind of create like, let's, let's like what the mind can conceive, the mind can achieve. So first you got to know where you're going. You can still get in a car and just drive. You got to know that you got to put the destination in the GPS. And so I had a very clear vision of where I wanted to go. This year is, we're back on the same highway.

[00:19:52] But now I'm just trying to think, you know, maybe I got to get off at a different exit or take this route or go make sure I go on the easy pass lane and not the cash toll booth. And so how do I get more efficient on that, on that highway? Kind of like that analogy. I never said that before, but, but, but we, I think the feedback was people did feel it was different. There was a seriousness. There were speakers they didn't see. There were activations they didn't see.

[00:20:16] So now I feel the pressure to the media business, terrible business, Eric, because great as it is, the next day you're at zero. And so you have to do it all again. And if I do a great event this year, you know what I win? The opportunity to do it again. If you do great, you're at zero the next day. And if you're terrible, you're at zero the next day. And so the pressure never ends. You know, you win a Superbowl next year, you're zero and zero at the start of the season. So only difference is I don't have a hundred million dollar five-year contract. So, you know, or even the league minimum sounds nice right about now.

[00:20:44] So what I had to do is how do we continue to bring voices in from outside the industry? What is, what is the headlines? Right? So, you know, we talk about strength. Everyone's talking about strength. You need to know that strength is popular, Eric. Strength is trending. Yeah, I'm aware. No? Yeah. But you know what's really interesting? Do you know that there are concepts that have built their entire business on serious strength?

[00:21:12] Absolute Recomp or Elevation Fitness, Goals Fitness. And there are also equipment brands that are for Jim 80, Watson, Skellcore, Kaiser. And so these guys are in the business of strength. Not a trend. This is their business. They need the right equipment, the right trainers. I want to hear from them what is changing that category. Not strength is trending. You know, everyone is Pilates, a boom or a bust.

[00:21:41] Great conversation right now. You see on Instagram, there's more Pilates studios than there are Starbucks in New York. You see, oh, there's still a lot of white space. Oh, there's a saturation. This is closing. This is opening. I don't know. Okay? But we're doing a panel and Pilates wars. I want to hear what Jet Set, Club Pilates, Solid Core, and Pilates Addiction has to say when I say, guys, what the hell is the difference between you people? Have you ever met anyone that walks down the street and says,

[00:22:10] hey, Eric, you want to do Pilates tomorrow? Sure. But I only work out at corporate locations. They don't even know what that means. Oh, I don't like that. That's a franchise. I don't like that area developer here. They don't know that. Yeah, I'm a kid. And do you say, hey, I want to go to Solid Core? Or do you say, I want to go to Pilates? If we go on a trip, or am I going to say, you know, is there a Jet Set in this neighborhood? No, I don't want to work out there. I don't like to work out there. I like to work out here. I don't know the answer to these questions. I have thoughts on it.

[00:22:40] Why, if I asked you, hey, I am looking to open a Pilates franchise in Missoula, Montana. Which one should you take? I'd like to hear them answer that question. So this is not, is Pilates great? I actually literally want to hear the answers to these questions because I don't know the answer. Who's this event for? Like when you design it, who's the person in your mind or the people in your mind that you want there? Like who's going to get the most value?

[00:23:05] So, you know, if someone goes to Disney World, everyone's going to walk away and say that there's a, they have a favorite ride. Right? There's always, you know. So I think different people will find different value. There's a lot of choose your own adventures that are going to happen. When you have two stages and over a hundred speakers and content all day long and activations all day long and networking all day long and dinner is happening. Where you will find and extract value is different.

[00:23:34] So the first thing is there are 50, 60, 70% of the people that come will be owner and operators. I put them in the category of, let's say buyers, meaning they run fitness facilities. They, and that could be a boutique. That could be nonprofit. That could be HVLP. That could be the middle. That could be premium. That could be luxury realty. That could be mass hospitality. That could be cruise ships. That could be residential buildings.

[00:24:03] These are people that are servicing the fitness customer. These are people that are buying fitness technology. These are people that are buying equipment. These are people that are buying red light. So these are the people that are trying to, how could I better serve my customer? How could I stay ahead of what's trending in terms of equipment and services? They also want to raise money. They also want to understand the valuation.

[00:24:24] So when you have the Cattertons, when you have the Princeton's, when you have the Founders Row, when you have Bondside, when you have KSL, there's many different ways to raise money. There's many, some it's debt financing. Some is, you know, there's a lot of innovative things. Perry passed you. There's a lot of new opportunities to access capital. That's not just investment banks or the big box traditional, you know, private equity.

[00:24:54] And you want to hear, you also want to hear what a JP Morgan or a Snapdragon is saying as it relates to the category. You know, what's going public? What's trending? Valuations. So that's valuable to the other investors that are valuable to people running businesses, investing in businesses. You do have a bunch of people that then service that other side. The techno gyms, the playlist, they are looking to meet operators.

[00:25:19] They're looking to learn what operator, again, you have to hear what a hotel group wants in order to then build and service that product. So this is an opportunity not to hear from people, like hear for the people on the ground that are actually doing it. You want to hear what Related Ross is doing in West Palm? Well, let's bring Related Ross on stage and say how they're deploying billions of dollars to develop this new community. And then I think it's what really makes this different is all the little sizzle.

[00:25:47] It's having a Katzenberg talk about storytelling. It's having a meta. It's having the LA Rams talk about performance and human performance. It's having those. And there's a lot more. There's there's we have a futurist. I heard this gentleman speak at a retail conference, how we're going to shop in 10 years, how we're going to consume content, how we're going to consume media, how we're going to learn, how kids are going to go to school. Like, I don't care what you're doing. Everyone was like, whoa, they didn't care about duties and tariffs. They're like.

[00:26:18] And even if he's right on some of the things, it changes the way you think about the future. People love that stuff. And we don't have access to that stuff in this industry. So now I don't care what side of the equation you're on. We all could learn from these type of people. And those are those made change moments. The breakout, you know, people always at a good stage. No, no, no. They're both great stages. One is more macro. Hey, we all could learn the consumer insights from a meta. But we're talking very specifically about franchising or financing or youth sports.

[00:26:49] That's a different track. You know, if you want to hear about CMOs talking about marketing, well, that's a different. That attracts the CMOs. So you're going to see a lot of CEOs, CMOs, CTOs and procurement people. I think those are the biggest titles you're going to see in the room. So how do you design that? So if you have like a track, right? Like, I don't know what track I would fall under. Maybe you could tell me. But like, so is it so that the speakers are in line at certain times so that you can hit all the people you want in a certain track? Is that what you mean by that?

[00:27:18] Is that how you organize the speakers and then in the events within the show? Eric, if I told you, if you could see what my office looks like right now, I have like human-sized post-it notes all over the windows with post-it notes on there. Hundreds of speakers laid out. What moderator? What track? If you got this going on in this room, what should you have in that room? If you're doing this the first day, what should you do the second day? Okay, this person is going to really bring people back in the room after a break.

[00:27:46] Like, this person may lose some people, so we got to wedge them in between this other person. It is, it is, I mean, I don't want to, you know, everyone's amazing, but some people have more of a draw than others, let's be honest. Yeah, yeah, of course. And so, it's an art and a science. Like, you know, you try to do the best you can. I don't do it myself. We did a four-hour meeting yesterday. One to five. Four hours just on this topic alone, and maybe we got 10% of the way.

[00:28:11] I think people do not understand not only how expensive it is to do this type of event, how much human capital is required. And here's the difference. When you go to events and you're like, huh, what the hell are these people doing on stage together? The questions didn't make any sense. The moderator didn't know anything about the panel. The panelists didn't even know why they were sitting there. Not that I knock it because it's hard. Hopefully, you start to appreciate how different of an event this is.

[00:28:38] And I think that's the difference coming out of last year is people were like, they could articulate how it felt difference. Whether it was the food, the green room, the products. Someone was like, I've been in this industry 30 years. I never didn't know what a mortal was or shift wave or one-hype brain mapping. Or, you know, we also control it. You know, you can't bring posters and change the backdrop. We democratize it. Everyone's got the same space. So bring one or two things, but that better be something great because that's what you're going to be talking about for the next two days.

[00:29:06] It challenges people to think the way this industry comes together. And I want to change the industry's perception of these events because I believe that if we could have more success at these events, the industry will collaborate, come out more. Not that I'm going to start five more, but I'm very close with a lot of the competitors. And we actually support each other. I go to the events. I put them on the VIP list. They invite me to their events and people would say, you're crazy.

[00:29:34] No, because I can be successful and they can be successful. And if they're successful and people have a good experience, more likely they're going to come and want to then come to my event. So I actually say, please, I need you to be successful. That's the mindset that people do not get. We want the Planet Fitness stock to go through the roof because that's going to help every other publicly traded company. Do not wish ill on your neighbor. Like the valuations will go up. The capital will get dispersed. Executives will come in for other industries.

[00:30:00] Like, yeah, I get that it's a zero-sum game and there's only so many hours in the day or dollars to be dispersed. There's more than enough people and more than enough capital for this industry to have a lot of winners. So it's two days, right? It's the 16th and 17th. Is it, I guess, walk me through. I remember a lot of it. It was one day. I mean, I was very busy one day. The next day I could breathe a little bit, talk to people and then go. So it was primarily speakers.

[00:30:27] You walk up and they had like an experiential venue, right? Where you could like test things like Immortal or Shift Wave or Wellness Space. A lot of their products and services. Like you could actually experience things, which I thought was very unique, right? Versus just, you know, kind of an open room where people give you, I don't know, knickknacks, right? Like you could actually sit down and experience something. The massage. What's the massage one for, you know, Eric Levin's the founder. I got to skate. Yeah, that was, I got to, I got to try that. That was very cool.

[00:30:54] Um, that's another story for another day, but the, uh, yeah. So walk us through it. Like what, what is, what is the two day experience? And is there room in there to actually meet people and talk and sit down and have like some, some meaningful meetings? Well, look, Eric, at the end of the day, that's the whole purpose of this. I hope so. You know, when, when people, when we get on a sales call and tell people, they're like content, I got to be careful what I say, because we try to create great content.

[00:31:24] We do create great content. And then we do have a paywall, but the end of the day, you, the media in general, you create great content and that content creates an audience, builds an audience, attracts an audience. And then what people pay for is the ability to tell their story to that audience. That's it in a nutshell. You want to call it a TV commercial, a print ad, a brand of content article, a podcast, whatever it is. Someone has an audience and you want to tell your story. And my job is to help craft that story.

[00:31:53] And why do people want to tell that story? They all, the story is just a means for a buyer and a seller to come together, for an investor and investee to come together, for a franchisor and a franchisee to come together. So you hope that you create great content because you do want people to learn, but you hope that that content attracts best in class talent to come to the event. When you have that best in class talent at the event, that attracts investors to want to come. That attracts service providers to want to come.

[00:32:23] And then you curate. I always joke, and I've said this to you, I'm nothing more than a doorman. You're not really selling the liquor. The DJ needs to create the vibe so everyone's on the dance floor. But what makes a great club is the people inside the room. Why does one club and me packing have a lot around the block and the other one goes out of business? And by the way, you could be a hot club today. How do you stay a hot club tomorrow? If you cannot curate consistently a great experience and have the right people, you lose. Which is why I'm a sugar in the head.

[00:32:49] No matter how great tonight's club is, I got to make sure tomorrow night's just as great. And so the answer is yes. There's the accidental meetings that happen. Hey, Eric, I heard you speak. There's the, hey, Eric, I know you're coming. Hey, Eric, I know we didn't get a chance to meet, but I heard you speak. I'd love to set up a meeting. Hey, Eric, would you like to come to my dinner? Hey, you go into the booth and, hey, Eric, can I try this? Oh, my God, this is amazing. I got 32 locations in Texas. You don't know who I am, but I like to buy this product. Eddie, you know, I never heard of this group.

[00:33:19] One of the things that I try to spend a lot of time with is not just bring the names that everyone knows to the table. What about every day I hear about another group that's got 42 locations in a C city that you don't know about that's actually printing cash. I'm sure everyone liked to know who that is. And so, yes, I would hope that's what makes people come back, the connections they make. It is. And I've made some really good ones. And then there's just so much to do in New York City.

[00:33:49] Like, I feel like it's the event and then there's the event outside of the event, which is probably the dinners and the coffees and like everything that goes into all of that. So outside of the actual event space itself, what else can people expect, do you think? What makes, what would help? Now, okay, let me phrase this again. I believe when you go to these events, people are like, well, is it worth going? Like every event is worth going to. It's what you make of it. Who are you going to meet? Like, who's going to be there?

[00:34:17] Like not every event, but most events are worth it. So if you're going to tell someone who's going to attend your, your conference, like for them to make the most of it, what should they do to prepare when they come? You know, again, I use the club mentality. It's a great one. I, I, my job is to get the right people in the room. I can't make so-and-so go on a date with you. You could try to buy someone a drink, shoot, shoot you shot. You may have a date. You may get married. You may get rejected. People call me, you know what? I'm trying to raise money.

[00:34:44] I'm like, okay, well this fund, this fund, this bank, this investor, this PE that will all be there. Well, will they talk to me? I don't know. I don't know. Because I don't know if you have a product worthy of their attention. I don't know if you've done enough promotion of your business to get their attention. I don't know if the math is good enough for them to invest. But if you're telling me these are the people you want to meet, they're going to be in the room. Do what, are you following, to your point, are you asking for a meeting ahead of time?

[00:35:11] Or do you have the confidence to walk up and say, hey, I'm sorry to bother you. I'd like to meet you. You probably don't know who I am. I saw you speak earlier. You have five minutes. Can I walk with you? And can we get a cup of coffee? I talk to my brother about this every day. The door doesn't knock. I got to knock on doors all day long. You think someone's going to pick up the phone and call you? Then, you know, there's a different conference you need to go to. So, I think the beauty of New York City is, well, first of all, this industry has so

[00:35:40] many events on the West Coast. It's good to go East. Two, there's a seriousness and an energy that the city has and nowhere else has. You say it's expensive. I challenge people that say that because there's a hotel room for $99 and the hotel room for $10,000 a night. There's a lot of options. You want to be one block from the event? You want to be 10 blocks. You know how many times I go to conferences? I don't stay at the host hotel. If I'm bringing 15 people, maybe I can spend $700 a night. Maybe I got to spend $299. So, if that's the issue, let us know because we will help you find something that fits your

[00:36:08] budget and your accommodations and your preferences. I think people forget that this is a city where one of the things, I remember Lee and I were bickering last year. And Lee is my head of events. But any people are going to leave, stay one day and then leave? They go, no. I bet people spend three or four nights in New York. You know how many concepts are in New York that other places don't have? You know how many people go to other ship? Yeah. Or go to this death house. Or I want to try the athletic club. Or I want to try Northern Strong. Because so many great brands start here.

[00:36:36] And so many experience exists here that nowhere else. Maybe here, LA. So, people are using this as research. They're using this to try places out. A lot of the capital sits here. A lot of the real estate executives sit here. A lot of people are having meetings. They come here and say, hey, let's have a meeting Monday. I'm going to do this Wednesday after. So, I see people make the most of this great city. Because it's a serious city where business gets done. And I think you have to take advantage of that. Yeah.

[00:37:04] And I think if you are from the West, I stay four nights when I come. Right? One extra day, one extra night. Just to do whatever. I leave it open. Like maybe it'll be someone with the industry. Maybe it'll be an old friend. Maybe it'll just be exploring. I love other shit. It's fantastic. Shout out to Robbie Vett. They do such a good job with that place. So, yeah. And, you know, for reference, and this isn't me blowing smoke up your skirt. But when people ask me what events to go to during the year, Athletics won the top two, three. Right? Definitely up there.

[00:37:33] I mean, I think HFA is just kind of one of those ones where you got to show up. Right? It's big. They've been doing it forever. You meet a lot of people. And it's, you know, within the United States, I think it's important. But this is right up there. And it's only going on year two. So, it's, I look forward to it. It's fun. You know what I mean? Like it's an enjoyable event. Well, you just said something which is super important. Where people forget at the end of the day, this is also entertainment. Yeah. It is. It's entertainment. It's a very, it feels. You know, why?

[00:38:02] Why would you turn the lights off and you shoot the blue lights up and you're like, whoa, it wasn't my idea. Yeah. Damn. You know? And look, we put some polarizing people on the stage last year. And I always love people's opinions. Oh, this guy's a quack. This person's amazing. I said, look, love him or hate him. The whole room was watching him. You decide if you want to do business. You decide if you want to sell to him. He wants to sell to you. Buy. He or she or whatever. So, you know, it's always, you're never, the one thing about these events is you're never

[00:38:31] going to make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. Could I, you know, maybe I shouldn't have had that speaker. Maybe this person wasn't as strong as I thought on him. Maybe that moderator didn't ask the right question. How, how there's no moment where everything is going to line up perfectly. But I believe that you will, everyone could have, could extract enough value to make it worthwhile. I don't look at, I'm not competing with HFA. HFA is an event that I go to, my team goes to, and everyone should go to.

[00:38:59] I wish more people would go to, you know? And so I think that's, I think the only challenge, Eric, and I don't, I got to be careful what I say is people need to understand that they need to pay for this type of experience. Someone recently said to me, they wanted to buy subscriptions. And this is a very large organization. They said, why would you buy a group subscription? I'll just have one and share it. I said, you know what?

[00:39:39] They said that to you? I don't normally like, like, like respond like that, but it's like, first of all, if you're going to do things like that, you don't say that. And B here, I am writing about you guys all the time. And like, so, so people need to realize, like, can I get the personal training for free? Can I go to the gym? Well, of course you can't come to the gym. Why can't I go to the gym for free? Why? Well, we have real estate costs. We have human person, we have personnel costs. We have to buy new equipment. Okay. So, so isn't every business like that?

[00:40:09] You know, you go to your favorite restaurant, they may give you a free round of drinks once, once in a while, but got to pay for the pasta. So I don't know why people don't understand that. If it's enough value for them to email me every day for me to cover them, is it not enough value for them to find, spend a few bucks and attend? And so again, I think that speaks to the industry. Other industries are more likely to invest in personal development. They send their teams to classes. Um, continuing education.

[00:40:39] Um, like I, I send my team to media conferences to learn about digital marketing. I go to, uh, supply chain cover. I want to understand. We're always investing. I can't tell you how much we invest. I work with a coach in bettering my team, myself. I think it's, I think it's a missed opportunity. What, um, with the minutes we have left, I mean, I, I, it's been a year. I can't believe since you've been on this podcast. Like give us an update, I guess, two things.

[00:41:07] Athlete tech overall, like what's, what's new over the last year. And then, um, what's your take on, on the B2B media side of our industry right now as well? I mean, I, um, I feel like it's evolving, but still there's like only a couple of real major players. The podcast space, um, seems to be maturing a little bit. I'm starting to see a lot of them that were around for a little while just kind of fade off. Um, so the ones kind of, you know, continue to go, but yeah, so what's new with athlete tech? What's your take on the B2B media space within our industry? So two different questions. I'll try to tackle them quickly.

[00:41:37] Athlete tech is continuing to, to new to grow. Our team is bigger than it was last time we spoke. Our organization is bigger. Our readership is bigger. Um, what we really want to do in an age of AI and, you know, everyone can write a press release. Everyone can write a quick news hit, uh, media companies that are going to survive are going to have intelligence and insights and access to people that AI doesn't have. It has a percent of, has an opinion that people don't have. And so we have to continue to evolve and create.

[00:42:07] This is not only, this is the deal, but this is what the deal mean. This person resigned. This is what it means. This merger happened. This is what it means. And that requires better journalists, higher paid writers, higher. And that's where I'm saying the cost becomes. And the only way for that financially to work is to have the paywall and the membership model that every other website has, or every other media company has. One of the things off the back of this event and the CEO summit that we did at NASDAQ that

[00:42:32] you mentioned, is people are asking me for more networking, more opportunities to me. So I haven't publicized this. Actually the first time I've ever even saying it publicly, I've created an executive circle. And this executive circle, we have dinners, you know, 10 odd times a year before, before events like HFA or FitTech summit. But I also, when we travel to different markets, we try to bring people that are locally there together.

[00:42:58] And some of the most candid, honest conversations start to happen. It's a very much like a YPO moment. People let down their guard and they start to collaborate. And I could tip, oh my God, I met this one. Oh, I did this deal. And I'm like, okay, there's a value here. So, okay. Now I'm like, all right, I'm spending quite a bit of money taking everyone to dinner. And I'm kind of like the poorest guy in the room. These are all, you know, major tycoons. Is there a business here? And the business has become, become a member. You get access to the innovation summit. You get access to the CEO summit. We're going to do it in West Palm this year.

[00:43:28] Invite only if you're a member of the group. We're going to do a, you know, a dozen dinners. We're going to do monthly calls. And so this has evolved a little bit, a little bit into something people really want. And because they need to be able to network with their peers and not be sold to, not feel like it's off the record. Everything is off the record. So trying to, trying to do more on that and stay the course. I mean, I think that, you know, there's, we just hired an editorial director and he

[00:43:57] had a big, and this kind of goes to the beginning of our conversation. I still think there's a major opportunity to double down on fitness content. And what I mean by that is content for the one, two, let's call it less than five unit operator. Yeah. What you don't see is they don't understand that they could get sued by BMI and Ascot for not licensing music. They think that they could play Spotify or a boom box or whatever that metaphoric thing is today. No, that's illegal. They need to work with the feed FM.

[00:44:27] They need to work with a tune global. They need a fit radio or they need to have individual agreements, but they don't understand that that's against the law. Cause I don't think anyone's telling them. So they wait till they get the paper in the mail and go. So that's one very, very micro example, but there's way that we could create content and it's not news. It's not this person raised money that, you know, how do we help these people do their job better? And I think that not all content is the same. There's content for franchisees. There's content for big box operators. There's content for enthusiasts. There's content for personal trainers and there's content for these.

[00:44:57] So we start to think about how to segment and create very specific content for each of our, of our audiences. Capital intensive, time intensive, but we're going to continue to double down on what made us special, which is the content. Right on. I love it. What about the state of B2B media in our industry? You know what? That's a difficult question to answer because, you know, if we looked at entertainment and we said, okay, you have variety and Hollywood reporter and deadline and Indie wire and the

[00:45:24] rap and this, this, this, and this, you know, I could kind of give a state of affairs, you know, revenue is down. This is for your consideration. I joke sometimes if we don't write it, it doesn't happen. And not, and I don't mean that in a pompous way, there isn't a ton of people that are investing. First of all, there's not enough money. There's not enough advertising dollars to support a hundred publications. I think why there has been some attrition in podcasts or whatever content creators is because you could be incredibly busy doing nothing.

[00:45:52] You know, I'm trying to figure out now, even I met as a tax in many ways, we do it every day, but like to say, well, I pay FICA and federal, I have to pay meta because you have to be there as a business, but there are people that do that as a tax. There's people that actually use it to drive more business. And so are you up there doing, you know, coffee reviews all day on Instagram? Well, I don't know what the ROI on that is, or is there a hook trying to drive people to subscribe or follow or purchase a protein or something? So I think for people that are just, you have to turn these into businesses.

[00:46:22] I think there's a few players in this industry that have done a good job building events, but my caution to everyone, including my own team is if you think because there's only a few that you were, you could, you know, cruise and you're undisruptible, you will be disrupted, including us. I think there's not a tremendous amount of people covering this content. A lot of, look, you see biohacking, longevity, spike in content, spike in events, people trying to make a quick buck off of that.

[00:46:52] Some players will merge, some players won't. But I don't really know how to answer that question because I don't think it's a mature enough category for us to really look at. But if there's something more specific, you know, you want, you're asking, you know, let me know. No, no. I was just, I was curious to get your take on it. I mean, you know, I guess I have one foot in B2B media with this podcast, right? But you're all in like, and that's, you know, so I'm always curious, like how is the industry valuing it? You know, we always. And I know they value it because we got about the 10,000 emails a week telling us about their

[00:47:21] raise, their opening, their, their executive move. Right. People begging. But I will tell you what's, what is downtrending is consumer media as it relates to traffic from search, as it relates to affiliate revenue. Like I would not want to be a media company that is trying to pitch, you know, these are the 10 best running shoes and because, but what this industry also needs to understand is what's frustrating is they don't understand ROI. Do you click on an ad on a TV and buy a car?

[00:47:52] Can you attribute that? How many times you need to see or read about a franchise before you purchase a franchise? You don't sit there with your wife and say, I read an article. Let's, let's click the wall street journal. And so one of the things that people have to realize as we go into a no click world and people are going to AI, when they say, is this a good franchise? What are the best red lights? Maybe what's coming up as an article that we wrote where the information is being derived from the interweb and they're pulling it. I'll never get credit for that. But if I'm not writing it, the AI engines can't populate it and therefore people won't

[00:48:22] discover you. Yeah. How do you put a value on that? You pay PR companies a lot of money. And so you want us to write it. But so that's where people have to look at the holistic thing and say like, okay, like we still need this. It's not how many people clicked on an ad. It's, it's how many touch points am I giving? How are we helping you tell your story? How are other media companies helping you tell your story? How are other events helping you tell your story? And is the culmination of all those storytellings an increase in business?

[00:48:52] The answer is no. Then we'll tell someone else a story. We'll help them to drive business. And I don't mean that in a, in a, in a, in a pompous way. Like it's the history of the world, you know, it's, it's, it's Pepsi, you know, Rolex is the advertiser on this and Citi Field is the advertiser and State Farm Stadium is like, you know, when people say to me, I don't need a market. Everyone knows who I am. I say, well, with that mentality, why does Coca-Cola advertise? We all know who that is. It's, it's a really interesting thing.

[00:49:20] I know we gotta, we gotta wrap this up in a minute, but you know, with a lot of the work that we do too, um, with my podcast and podcast collective is, you know, everyone wants like the direct ROI. They want that attributable link, that, that number, right? That performance marketing number. And it's really hard to get. I'm like, well, I tell a story. I'm like, well, you know, I can tell you though about, you know, the executive that sat down at Goldman Sachs and they said, Hey, I listened to your, I listened to your interview on future fitness. And, you know, I feel like I got to know you a little bit so we can cut through this and this, and this is what I learned. Right?

[00:49:49] Like, that's the type of thing. Like you look at smart people, they're going towards the media. They're reading the articles before a meeting, right? They're listening to the podcast or downloading a transcript. They're doing all these things, which you gotta be out there, man. Like there's a, there's an incredible amount of value just being out there and this is how it's done nowadays. So, um, yeah, I mean, I guess we're kind of both blowing the same horn here, but that, that's what I want people to understand is like branding is one thing and it's critically important,

[00:50:14] but how people consume information now and how AI is consuming information now and filtering it to the people, um, to the user is, is, is different. And this is critically important that people need to be playing out here. And this is a good marketing. Yeah. It's gotta be positioned well. Industries have been built. I mean, we all buy, we all buy cards around holidays or rings when we get a

[00:50:39] engaged or, uh, ceremonial things because we've been told this is important. Like luxury brands have, you know, the cost of the, of the bag versus what's it sold or the cost of the watch versus sold. There's a massive gap there. The power of brand, the power of position. People will wait online to be told that there's no inventory. And then they're called six months later and the price is 20% higher brand. Why does Equinox get this much money per month? And this, because they've invested in storytelling. They've invested in brand positioning.

[00:51:08] This is not a call to just to throw digital ads on the internet. This is a call that if you think you could build a successful company without marketing, like even you mentioned NASDAQ, NASDAQ was a very deliberate choice. I could have done New York city, a different venue. And let me tell you, it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper. But what did it feel like when you walked in there and we were all in suits and you had the CEO of aura there and you had Catterton there on stage talking. There was a position that we took as we're going to reposition how this industry thinks

[00:51:35] about themselves, the caliber of speaker we have, where we convene. To me, that is part marketing. That is brand positioning. And so I think we have to be willing to invest in that. Great companies do it. All the content that certain brands create. So many people are selling a product a year before the product even launched. Now look at all these creators who are building followings and then they've created a product on the back of it in their mind. They're selling that product from day one. They just, you just don't know what it is yet. Let's circle back to the beginning of this because you said something.

[00:52:05] I think that nailed it. Like we have to reposition how this industry thinks about themselves. It's not necessarily that we need a rebrand or a got milk moment. We just need to present ourselves. We need to believe that we are something different than we always have. And that's a really, um, what you think and how you present yourself is everything. Right? So if we start presenting ourselves in a different way, the consumer, our, our, you know, our environments, our communities will all start to think of us in a different way. And I think that's, uh, that's powerful.

[00:52:35] We'll leave it right there, man. That was really good. Hey, people want to get ahold of you? Where do you want them to go? Yeah. Email me, you know, Edward at athlotechnews.com. Find me on LinkedIn. Find me on Instagram. Look, I love to hear from people. Feedback could be good, could be bad, could be ideas, could be pitches. We're here to service the industry. I know that sounds crazy, but it's the God honest truth. We are only as good as the stories that this industry has to tell. And that's our job. Our editors every day in the newsroom, that's what they're trying to do. So please reach out. Right on.

[00:53:06] Well, Eddie, thank you for doing this again and look forward to seeing you in a few weeks, man. It's going to be great. Thanks, Eric. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Edward Hertzman. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This is your host, Eric Malzone. And I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Fitness. If you did, I'm going to ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it.

[00:53:34] iTunes, Spotify, CastBox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media. Talk about it to your friends. Send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. And we want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more or get in touch with me, simply go to thefutureoffitness.co.

[00:54:00] You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone and this is the Future of Fitness. Have a great day.