Authentically Bizarre to Sophisticated Marketer - Mark Fisher

Hey fitness fans, welcome back to the Future of Fitness podcast. I'm your host, Eric Malzone. And this is episode number 36. I have the extreme pleasure of talking to Mark Fisher. And I've listened to this recording a few times and I get so much out of it. So I'm going to tell you all about Mark here in a second, but first I'm going to ask you for a favor. So my personal goal in 2018 is to take this podcast from amateur to pro. And right now, in the grand scheme of things, it's it's a pretty small podcast, I'll be honest, right? So I need you to do one of three things, or all three. Actually, do all three. One of which, go to YouTube and subscribe to our channel. Number two, go to wherever you're listening to this audio version, iTunes, Stitcher, whatever it is, and subscribe and rate us, uh, hopefully favorably. That would be the best. And also, I want you to post something on social media about this. Post an episode that you like, tag me. I will uh I will promote the heck out of you as well. And hopefully we can uh we can really grow this thing together in 2018. But I would love to get you guys invested and start hearing more about you and what you're what you're interested in hearing. So if you could do those three things, that'd be amazing. So let's talk about Mark Fisher, because that's really exciting. He uh so he owns two gyms, Mark Fisher Fitness in New York City. Uh one's in Hell Kitchen and one is in Bowie, Bowery. I hope I'm saying that right. Uh he also runs and establishes uh established Business for Unicorns, which is a business school for entrepreneurs and small business owners. And as you go through this interview, you'll realize how special this guy is and how he's differentiating himself. And I think he's probably the most savvy marketer I know of within the fitness industry. So really take heed to what he says. Uh he talks about his journey from being originally just authentically bizarre, which I love, and uh getting into what he is now, which is a very sophisticated marketer and businessman and the systems he has. And yeah, he seems zany and he seems a little crazy in all these things, but he's extremely intelligent and he knows business very well. So I've listened to this interview a couple times and I've taken a lot out of it. So I hope you do too. And without further ado, let's get on to it. This is Mark Fisher of Mark Fisher Fitness and Business for Unicorns.

Thanks for having me.

So uh I'm gonna do a whole intro before this and record of who you are and give people an introduction, but um, I I think you are about as close to a literal unicorn within the industry as we come across. Um, so from what I've seen from my distance and seeing it and give people an idea. So I was doing some research on the uh you have a YouTube channel, you have over 2,250 subscribers, which is very unique for a gym. Um you also have a video uh which I think is one of the first things I saw of you, which is called the Seven Habits of Highly Sexy Motherfuckers, um, which now has over 30,000 views on YouTube. Yes. So um that's incredible, man. That's really that's incredible numbers. And I guess the biggest when I when I see all this, the biggest question I have is being especially you're in New York City, is that right?

Yeah.

There's a lot of fitness professionals in New York City. How did you did you purposely go about differentiating yourself, or is this something you found yourself kind of fall falling into?

I think it was both. I think it was both. I think that I knew that I wanted to share my passion for fitness and methodologies and techniques that I believe are reflective of current best practices. I wanted to share that in a way that people enjoyed it. And because I was essentially looking to create services for my friends, they were people I knew really well. I knew what they thought was funny, I knew where they were hurting, I knew like what they hoped could their life could be with fitness. So, because of that, it was pretty organic and that I felt called to do it. But at the same time, I also had enough strategy to know that this in fact would be different than a lot of other offerings out there. So there was definitely an awareness that to some extent, if the entire industry is zigging, I'm just gonna zag. And if in New York, particularly the market is so much about people feeling it's very aspirational, a lot of just like beautiful, high art, just beautiful people doing beautiful people things very beautifully together in a beautiful, beautiful way, and we very, very work very hard, be very type A, and like uh, and that is totally a cool thing to do. And I was like, that's great. I'm gonna bring all the other weird kids and I'm gonna go hang over here with IOS Ms. Fit Toys, and I'm gonna dress up like a banana today because bananas are great. Yeah.

Uh, it's awesome. Do you have a marketing background? Did you have anything in to do marketing before you got into the fitness industry?

You know, I always joke, yes, in a sense, I have a bachelor of fine arts in the musical theater, and I think that that has served me very, very well in all marketing because I think from day one, it is interesting as I will sometimes look back on even what I wouldn't even have known to call copy at the time when I first started really promoting my services, which was in 2010. And at that time, it's interesting because I look back on what I was writing. I was like, whoa. And I think to be fair, I was modeling a lot of stuff I was already seeing in the fitness industry. And then I modeled, not knowing it a lot of the techniques of effective copy, and made sure I was really keeping in mind who I was looking to serve and what words they were using and where they were hurting and what they were hoping might happen. So I think that was definitely helpful. And I think, frankly, if you're even talking more broadly, like brand awareness marketing, I think having a background in the arts is helpful because it is very relatively easy for me to think laterally. So I'm very inspired by Richard Branson and Verdon's marketing and Seth Godin and Purple Cow. And I think that was intuitive to me that part of the game is just can you be remembered? Because the vast majority of the fitness industry with no shade is just like not memorable. But again, part of why I was able to do it successfully, and I think that's a little bit of the not the cautionary tale of Mark Fisher Fitness, but one thing that is important note is it also worked because authentically I'm just actually bizarre. And I think if it was I was putting on a show and trying to pretend to be something, I don't think it would have been as successful. And at this point, too, it's also fair to say that the first year was a little bit more pulled out of my butt, but because I started reading, it was in 2010 that I decided I was gonna read two books a week. And since then I've read now literally hundreds of marketing books. So at this point, it would be disingenuous to say that I'm I don't know, I'm just a crazy guy and I do crazy things and sometimes they work. It's crazy. Now, you know, I I I've sort of let that that hat go. I don't think that's I don't think that's genuine anymore at this point. Like I am, I consider myself a pretty sophisticated marketer, but that was I really think the foundation of that was my background in the arts and in narrative and in understanding character and all the things I learned as a musical theater major.

Yeah, it's interesting too. It reminds me of just talking to your I I'm a big Gary V fan who probably falls in line with a lot of things that the authors that you mentioned too. And he one of my favorite quotes from him is that you know, everyone's trying to beat him in numbers, he's beating them in uh finger coloring or something.

Sure.

You know, like it's you just you go against, and I think it's really easy for fitness professionals to fall into the same lines of what everyone else is doing because it's it's comfortable and uh you know you don't you're not putting your neck out there, which which is pretty uh pretty scary, especially at first, right?

And it's hard because in the beginning you just don't know what you're doing. And it's not uncommon for fitness professionals to be maybe adept at the actual technique, right? The technician cliche emet, they're good at training, but they're complete baby when it comes to business. So through no fault of their own, they attempt to read information that they're not actually very interested in at all, that they don't particularly like reading, and then they're trying to do what other people are telling them what to do. But because the very definition of, and I don't use judgmentally, but the definition of being an amateur is not understanding what matters. They can't discern between the details and what actually matters, and they certainly can't understand yet the difference between methods and techniques versus first principles. And ultimately, mastery in any field is about diving into what are the principles, what are the things that do not change. And that requires, unfortunately, a certain amount of mastery to get there in the first place. So I think we see not in command, the fitness industry, people attempting to get started in the business. And it's also part of the learning curve. And to be fair, you do have to crawl before you can walk. So that's not a knock on anybody who's listening to this and maybe feels like, oh my gosh, I don't know the difference between principles and techniques. I'd say, don't worry about it. I didn't know about it either. You just keep reading, you'll get better over time. Just do it nonstop for 10 to 20 years and you'll get good at it.

Yeah. Can you give us some anecdotes, maybe through your own development of like when you start to realize the difference between those two things, like in your in your career, maybe you know, in the 2010 to 2013 mark?

Yeah, I wonder. I feel lucky in a lot of the books. I an example of someone I think is very good about always talking about principles who is very influential to me, and I'm glad I found it early on was Seth Godin. Really almost from the beginning of my career. And I think it's because if you read Seth Godin's work, he was one of the first people that put it together for me that, oh, entrepreneurship is just art. I'm just being an artist. I'm making art for other people, I'm making things for them, and that's both scary and vulnerable and inherently creative. And I didn't really understand that until I read a lot of his work. And I find to this day he consistently still writes about principles, these primary things, right? Purple cow marketing. No one talks about a brown cow, they talk about a purple cow, or the importance of developing your tribes, or the fact that it's okay to be weird, everybody's weird. And he is someone that's been so interesting because now he's kind of the old guard in many ways. But it is fascinating if you look at when he got in the scene, even in the 90s. Permission to marketing was, I think it was the very first book, and it was one of the first books that decried spamming, which at the time was really it's certainly not that it's gotten better, but there was a brief period in the internet where you would get excited if there was anything in your inbox because it was somebody probably reaching out, and of course, marketers ruined everything, so that didn't last very long. So I think Seth Godin in general has been very useful for me to help uh reverse engineer. I realize that's not like a necessarily an anecdote. I I think certainly if I can think of specific examples, I mean part of it is test retest. I think part of how, and I'm sure I'm gonna think of specific examples, but there's definitely times we've done things that just didn't work. They just didn't work, or I tried something, even like a Facebook marketing technique, and I tried it, it just didn't work for me. And one thing I have found also another practical suggestion, and again, this is more useful if you're a super nerd like I am and really like to read books constantly. I think there's value in reading lots of old-timey stuff as well, because I think what you'll see is if you read things, and let's talk specifically to marketing here, but we could talk about any field of business. If you go back and you read David Ogilvy or you read marketing books from the 50s and 60s and 70s, if you read these classic texts, it becomes very apparent which things we're talking about are actually principles and which things are the flavor of the moment and the way that principle is being interpreted via the platforms of the day. Because human psychology hasn't really changed. And I am definitely a huge student also of evolutionary psychology and the ways that our brains are wired by natural selection to respond to certain stimuluses. So I find it fascinating to read old timey business books and sometimes just get my mind blown by, oh, this you're doing the same thing. It's just like you're using ads that you're buying in Vogue, which is obviously very foreign to what my life is. Yeah.

That's great. Yeah, you know, there's a uh a PDF I keep on my desktop, it's the 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing.

Sure.

I don't know when it was written, but it was a while ago. And I reference it all the time because it doesn't, you know, nowadays it's it's really easy to get mixed up in tactics too. You know, everybody's doing some kind of you know, the new Facebook type ads, or they're they're trying all kinds of different things, but those are tactics. It's not a strategy, it's not a principle, it's not, you know, it's uh it's really interesting. So I think one another, once again, I've never visited your gym, but I have a something in my mind of what the experience is like uh at Fisher Fitness. Can you get an example or just maybe describe in your own words what the client experience is like at MR Fisher Fitness?

I think at its best, we aspire for it to be joyful and bizarre and raunchy but wholesome. That's how I describe my ideal experience for the ninjas. I with the team, I always talk with them about that quite a lot, and we have very hilarious, probably two outsider conversations around what is ridiculous humanity. And I always talk about joy and confusion. I always want to create a lot of joy and a little bit of confusion, a little bit of did a monkey just run through here being chased by a naked man? Did that just happen? But it's joyful and it's also in its way actually quite wholesome and quite nurturing. And we are huge fans of customer service. And for me, that's the thing I'm most interested in, all of business, certainly in a service industry, is how can I learn to become responsible for managing my own energies, my own mindset, my own being, so that I can show up in a way that is generous and loving and positive, that meets people where they're at and hopefully has them leave their encounter with me having just a little bit more energy than they had before. And the entire business really is built around that premise.

So building on that, and this is you know a little bit of marketing speak, but do you you're do you have an ideal client? Like do you have someone in your in your mind, maybe it's you know, a friend of yours or something like that that you speak to all the time?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. We have we have a pretty exhaustive avatar that we mostly hew to. It's interesting in that we're to some extent playing with this right now at MFF because we have realized that we have essentially a gay male avatar and a female avatar that are very distinct and more so than ever, I think, in light of recent uh national events, I think respond very differently to different types of words and different types of images and different types of value propositions. But for the most part, there is a very specific avatar of which we've got, you know, his name is like Steve, and it's like a you know a 12-page word document, which again is just what you do when you're an actor. You get an exhaustive detail about like what is this person's relationship with her mother? How does it feel to have just recently been divorced and trying to put the pieces back together as a mid-40s male living in Hell's Kitchen, not quite sure what to do in the gay culture after years out of the game, and how do you find a place to go to? And Mark Fisher Fitness seems incredibly obnoxious, and you're sort of terrified by the seemingly closeted trainers there, and your friends say it's friendly, but at the same time, you wonder maybe you should go to Barry's boot camp because that's where it else seems to go, but then you're daunted by that place. So we really think with crystal clarity, I'm always talking to that person, at least with uh top of funnel marketing, because then there's obviously another conversation to be had when you look at MFF content, for instance. I also do like to throw red meat to the clientele sometimes, right? So certainly I want to make sure there's always an onboarding ramp so that people that don't know us can slowly get to know us, to learn to like us, to trust us, and then eventually to hire us. But I also try to make sure we use some of the content to engage our existing community, which actually gets pretty sophisticated as far as fit as consumers and the types of content that really inspire them and help them to deepen the relationship with us definitionally tends to be a little bit more sophisticated than uh that initial prospect. And we are quite lucky in a place like MFF. I have no bones about going for the person that does not currently belong to a gym, which makes it simple in the sense of that I it's pretty, I feel like relatively easy for me to put myself in that mindset. And I think if one thing, quite frankly, one challenge we have, and we're lucky now because a lot of us share the writing duties around here, is and this is the challenge you see in every gym, and this is, I theorize, why most people don't stay in the game kind of indefinitely, is because most people have maybe three, maybe five-year window that they can write the same how three steps to six-pack abs article, and then they leave the industry or they go into business coaching or they do something else just because they're just like, I'm gonna kill myself. I write one more article about three steps to six-pack abs. Uh, and I certainly do understand that. And for me, I found the most useful framing for it is the Dan Johnism of, you know, the best high school coaches, man, they just like running those basics, you know. And Dan is someone I always look up to, who's a shiny mentor of who I hopefully aspire to be with my career about like I want to go broad, but I also want to go deep. Uh, and you know, as I always say, I do intend to die in Mark Fisher Fitness. My role, and it continues to change, and we're lucky the organization has evolved so that I have a lot of variety and my role continues to evolve, but ultimately I plan to die in Mark Fisher Fitness.

Wow, that's extreme, that's extreme commitment. What do you do? I'm just out of curious, do you coach people? Do you coach uh fitness fitness professionals, gym, gym owners, things like that? Yeah, we do.

So in addition to so about half my time is spent in the building and half the time is out the building, but I mean that completely metaphorically, in that about half my time is spent working on Mark Fisher Fitness, sometimes very like down to the ground level, like creating programs and courses and writing blog content. More of that time working with the various people that have various leadership roles overseeing the systems and sometimes overseeing the people, overseeing the people seeing systems. So I've spent half my time working at Mark Fisher Fitness, and then the other half under Business for Unicorns, which is a company I have with my business partner, Michael, where we offer courses on entrepreneurship. And we do work with a lot of fitness people, and that business for unicorns actually isn't specifically for fitness. So we have a lot of people that are not in the fitness industry that take our courses and work with us. But yes, I do half my time is spent working outside of MFF. And for me, that's been kind of the dream because what I'm finding is, and as I know I'm old enough to know that these things always move about, so let's talk to me in a year and we'll see. But what I really like about it right now is I really enjoy the opportunity to take what I'm learning, like right now in Mark Fisher Fitness, and learn how to communicate it to other people, both to help them, and so I get more effective at understanding what's working, what's not working. And I've really found a lot of value in creating courses and really working to teach other people because it's forcing me to get more rigorous about things happening in Mark Fisher Fitness. So right now it's a very virtuous feedback cycle that I quite enjoy.

Well, that's awesome. So I'm curious on this topic that, and maybe we segued a little bit here into it. I mean, you have this powerful brand, you have this powerful personality, you have this powerful marketing system, you know. Um, what are the things that go into your day-to-day that people don't know about Mark Fisher Fitness? Like the maybe the structure or the routine, right? I mean, looking at it from the outside, I see just a cre an incredibly creative group of people who make great ads and seem to have one of the most powerful communities or you know, committed communities around. But what are the, what are the what's the nitty-gritty? What's the granular stuff that you have to do every day to make all that cool shit possible?

Yeah, a lot of the stuff that I, if I'm talking about weekly tasks without getting like too esoteric, I think a lot of that for me, frankly, if I'm talking about daily stuff rather, is like my ongoing education. So as I've mentioned, I think before, I'm just an education wing tech. So I consider that to be like the most important part of my job is sharpening my saw and being disciplined about doing that on a daily basis, as well as frankly taking care of myself physiologically and psychologically, both like sleeping, eating well, training, meditating, all that stuff. Now, as far as the things Mark Fisher Fitness needs to do, the nitty-gritty that I don't think most people are aware we do is probably more weekly tasks, but that's really tracking the hell out of all of the things. So we use a system called traction, which is a great book. You can read it online. It's essentially an entrepreneurial operating system. So every week our leadership team gets together and we look through all our KPIs and we track every single week, like with public accountability, where we're at on all of the things. It makes it relatively simple to see which parts of the business need more help. We also use that system to establish three big rocks in any given quarter for rolling out of new programs, new services, whatever it is again, we think is going to lead to our yearly goals. We also have a marketing calendar that is actually literally to the day. It's literally has 365 blocks cut down into weeks, cut down into months. So I think there's a Level of like rigor and discipline and tracking of numbers that would be shocking to a lot of people. And oftentimes we're trying to track things that are qualitative. And that is a challenge, right? Because what gets measured gets managed, but you can't always measure what matters. And I think that can become a little of a challenge too. Because once you start tracking things like revenue and you know, let's say something like retention number, that's always great. And you want to know that, but that's really a lagging indicator. So I'm so fascinated by the work of how do I get to the leading indicators. So one thing, too, I'll give one more particular action step that has been hugely beneficial is we track every miss expectation ever. And everybody on our team gets an email called a grow. Anytimes there's a miss expectation, very candid, terrifyingly transparent, where we all read Ninja So-and-so says they're terminating their agreement because they say, and I'm exaggerating, no one said this, but because they said that ultimately it's been so clear to them that this team is deeply, deeply unhappy, which we can assume is because Mark is so obviously lacking integrity at the end of the day. We now know for certain it's ultimately about money, and it's it's really obvious so I'm terminating my agreement. So we've just gotten very comfortable with hearing potentially painful things like that. And then uh, you know, that's the thing about feedback. If it's true, well, we want to know because then you can fix it. And if it's not true, then you know, it's not really, you know, a problem necessarily. Now, of course, there is the rub. How does one usefully aggregate all this feedback data and then make good decisions? Well, that's obviously the work of one's life, one might say. So that type of stuff, I think is that type just constantly surveying the ninjas, constantly driving for what can we do better, what can we be doing better, and constantly looking to improve the systems and improve all the each of the individual numbers. I think that's the stuff that's probably not as apparent because I think people see the fun, and don't get me wrong, we have a lot of fun, we have a lot of inspiration. Uh, we're definitely a very mission-driven organization, but we also work our asses off. We work our asses off.

Yeah, that's it. I'm I have no doubt. Just listening to you talk how hard you probably work. And I think that's interesting. And I just I I put I just put myself in that situation of reading one of those emails with you know, when I when I own my facility in Santa Barbara with my staff and what that feels like. And that that is, it's uncomfortable, it's extremely uncomfortable. Um, and I think most people just skip over it and go to whatever their KPRs or whatever they're working on that week, right? And that's that's nasty. Uh that's great. I mean, that's huge insight. And and every business that um from the outside, you know, appears successful and is successful, there's always these deep-seated habits and driven pieces that that make them, you know, are almost automatic, right? Yeah. If you've taken the time to f elevate to the point where those are automatic, and that's obviously what you've done there. Um out of curiosity, what book are you reading right now?

What am I reading right now? I am currently reading the fourth in the uh I'm a huge fan of this company called Zingerman's Community of Businesses, which is based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. It's actually a deli, but to my mind, they sort of set the bar for oh, this is what it means to actually have a truly conscious, enlightened business. And I am reading their fourth book, which I believe is called The Lapsed Anarchist Guide to a Business and Its Beliefs, which is a riff on the great Tom Watson book, which is another old-timey business book highly recommended by the the Tom Watson Jr. is the son of the founder of IBM. So I'm reading that, and then I'm audiobooking uh The Untethered Soul, uh, which is a book by a gentleman named Michael A. Singer, which is like a broadly uh I totally like it. It's I've I've read a lot of things. One challenge when you read is by the point where you're like, okay, okay, okay, I've heard this before. But you're always looking for, I always feel like I'm a squirrel, looking for nuggets. So untethered soul, I do quite like. It's more broadly in the a reminder that you know, there is the things that happen around you, and there's the way you choose to behave, and you have actually have a lot more control over how you respond, which is, I think, one of the great themes of a life of personal power that you see echoed in all sorts of wisdom traditions and person involvement literatures. Um but I think before that, you know, an example of a book that I actually got a couple takeaways out of was How to Fail How to Fail to Almost Everything and Still Went Big by Scott Adams, who wrote Dilbert. There was a lot of stuff in it that did seem kind of spot on to me, but he is a really beguiling, humble writing style. And it was funny because my poor wife was with me. And this is a thing to think that's important when you're reading books, if you want to be effective with them, that I don't know always happens. I always feel like I'm a squirrel looking for acorns. So as we're riding in my car, I'm riding home with my wife, listening to the audiobook on double speed, God Lover. She puts out me listening to the book on auto speed in the car, riding home to my family in New Jersey. I kept okay, pause, hold on. All right, make this note. Uh we need more video case studies for snatch in six weeks, right? Or like, okay, hold on, baby. Uh, take this note, uh, research business writing courses on Coursera and NYU. I need to take a business writing course, I get better at that. So, literally, whenever I'm reading books, I'm looking for acorns of things I can then process into my to-do list system and then do something with. So, in addition to the the training and the business stuff, I also teach a lot on time management. Uh, because what's interesting is I do know a lot of people that also try to read a whole lot. And I I offer without judgment that sometimes I wonder how useful that is. I wonder if actual it's leading to different actions because ultimately if something is just like kind of theoretically interesting, I'm personally just not as I don't know, I don't mind a huh. Like that's kind of fun to have a huh once in a while, but I'm more interested in what do I do differently so that I get different results and become more effective at whatever mission I happen to be serving at that moment.

Awesome. Are you still reading two two books a week?

Is that your your norm? Yeah, though I've realized that sounds cooler than it is because I audiobook. So and a lot of people are like, you you betrayed me. I was feeling terrible. I've I thought you read two to three books a week. And I was like, no, I use them kind of interchangeably. Don't yell at me. Um I do, I'm totally just kidding. Um yeah, I do the audiobooks, I I go to much greater clip, but I do generally get two to three per week generally. Because the thing is if you if you learn how to listen to an audiobook on double speed, you know, the average audiobook is about seven hours, eight hours, so it's three hours and change. That's a whole book right there. And because I spend a lot of my time with my earphones in listening and thinking and making notes, uh, that actually is not that insane to get through that level. So I my other thing too, I always say whenever I say this too, is I also generally recommend people don't try to do that. Uh, and I'm self-aware enough to know that there is a compulsiveness behind that behavior that uh I'm introspective of. I know it's like not without its challenges. It's like not a normal human behavior. Um but I can only say that I quite like it. And for me, my favorite question like, is that belief system mostly working for you? Because really that's it, right? Any system is like mostly working for you or like not totally working for you. And for me, it's like I do think it's mostly working for me and brings my life joyful, but I am aware that's insane. I don't think most people should do this. Most people should be like, I'm gonna go do that too.

Like, wow, I'm just curious. I aspire to that. I try, right? I try, but I don't I don't achieve that. Do you set a time and set aside blocks of your day just to do that, or is it something that's just fluid that you do throughout your workflow?

Um, I do set aside time for it. Yeah, I do set aside time for it, but I also it's more I just don't ever waste time. Not that you're wasting time if you're like commuting without listening to an audiobook, but it's very rare that I'll, for instance, walk the 10 minutes that it takes me to walk out my apartment door to walk into Mark Fisher Fitness and not do an audiobook. So let's say on a daylight today, for instance, and I again I don't do that religiously. Sometimes, like if it's a crazy day, I might choose to try to bang out some emails in it to not get buried by emails. But let's say it's an average day where I maybe make two trips back and forth. That's let's say 20 minutes per walk. Let's call that 40 minutes for now double. Now for I'm double speeding it, that is now an hour and 20 minutes of audiobooks just from that commute. And then if I cook my breakfast in a given day, it usually takes me at least 20 minutes. That's another 40 minutes of audiobook. So right there, I'm at two hours of an audiobook, a third of an audiobook, without doing any dedicated time towards it. Uh, and then depending on what type of physical activity I'm doing, I do also enjoy an audiobook. It just depends on what because some types of training really require presence that doesn't allow for me to audiobook at the same time. But if I'm doing like oxidative capacity work, the older I get, the more I enjoy just walking briskly on the treadmill or going for a nice long walk. And then, you know, I often quite like thinking about what it means to be an ethical and moral person while I do that, and listen to an audiobook.

That's great. Yeah, that's great tidbits. And I I agree with you. As the older I get, I really start to enjoy those aerobic intervals more than I did before because I thought they were definitely boring. And now I'm like, best thing going on now.

It's it's nice.

I like not being beat up all the time. Yeah, me too. Uh Mark, so where where do people find you? What's what's the best way? If people want to do business unicorns, if they just want to search Yeah, best place is business for unicorns.com.

That's where you will find uh most of my musings these days on everything from time management to managing a team to customer service and all that good stuff. Uh certainly MarkfisherHumanBeing.com is my personal website if anybody wants to see. I usually speak like one to two times per month all over all over the place. So if anyone wants to find me, they can do that there. And then, of course, MarkFisherFitness.com is the home of MarkFisher Fitness on the intrawebs.

Awesome. Well, thank you, man. Congratulations on all your success. I have a feeling that you're just going to keep going. And uh, I mean, you just offered a lot of insight to a lot of people listening. So uh appreciate your time. Keep it up, brother. Thanks, man. Much appreciated. All right. Hey fitness fans, don't leave yet. This is Eric Malzone, your host, and I have an extremely special offer just for you. If you go to fitnessmarketingalliance.com forward slash assessment, you can claim your complimentary digital marketing audit. Are you a modern fitness professional? Do you have some sort of online presence? Do you have a sneaking suspicion that your website is not performing optimally and therefore costing you money? Well, this is how you start to find out all the details just like fitness. You need to start with an honest and objective assessment to go to fitnessmarketinglines.com or slash assessment platform, and you will have it to you within 72 hours. You will cover your open site format from zero to 100. How you make your closing keyboard search engine optimization? Your website traffic is a website. Social media friends and much, much more. So I think it's a starting point for the online internet. So please take advantage of it.com or slash test. Do it today, do it right now. Don't hesitate attention forever. So thank you for listening. Greatly appreciate it. If you ever need to reach me, head me at Eric at FinanceMarketing Online.com, and I'll be talking to you very, very soon.