Andreas Gall & Natalia Karbasova FitTech Summit Series - The Future of Audio Fitness

Hey everybody, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness industry podcast for over two years and running. It is 2021, and I am your host, Eric Malzone. I have the absolute pleasure of talking to entrepreneurs, innovators, and cutting-edge technology experts within the fast-paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. Stop by future of fitness.co to subscribe and learn more. Hey listeners, this episode of the Future of Fitness is brought to you by our good friends at Insight Tracker. Do you want to add more years to your life and more life to your years? Of course you do, which means you need to make a change. And that is what Insight Tracker is all about. Founded by leading scientists in aging, genetics, and biometric data from MIT Tufts in Harvard, Insight Tracker is a personalized health and wellness platform like no other. So what's their secret? First, Insight Tracker uses its patented algorithm to analyze your body's data and offer you a clearer picture than you've ever had before of what's actually going on inside you. Then, Insight Tracker provides you with a concrete, science-backed action plan for living a longer, healthier life. And it tracks your progress every day, every step of the way. For a very limited time, Insight Tracker is offering future of fitness podcast listeners 25% off store wide. Visit InsightTracker.com slash future to get your offer code and try to Insight Tracker today. Insight Tracker, because change is an inside job.

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Yeah, sure, Eric. First of all, I'm really super happy to be here. She is from Munich on the cold, cold rain in Munich. So the Fit Tech Summit is the leading conference in Europe devoted to fitness technology and to the future of well-being and healthy lifestyle. And we are basically the platform where you know the brightest minds from the planet and uh the boldest startup founders in the fitness, health, and well-being space come together just to make to shape a common understanding of what's happening in the space, and especially at the FitTech Summit, end of May, how will fitness and health look like in the post-pandemic world? Like what would home fitness, how would audio interfaces or in general new interfaces develop and evolve? And uh, how is fitness blending with health more and more? And the whole understanding of fitness is actually kind of lending with the healthy lifestyle. Because today being fit actually means really to stay fit, not to get fit again after being sick. So these are the main topics, and we are super happy to have uh Andy with us, who will also be speaking at the summit. And today we're gonna have a very nice conversation, I hope, regarding the future of audio interfaces.

Great, yeah, and what a uh, you know, with everything that's happened over the last year, the acceleration of technology in the fitness industry has been nothing but mind-blowing. So I'm so excited to have the speak to listen and see the speakers that you have lined up this year. It's gonna be fascinating. And uh Andy, I am thrilled to talk to you. And this is something as we're talking about pre-recording, is I know a lot about the fitness industry, but uh, the audio side and your background and what your vision is for what this particular niche of technology can do for our industry is really uplifting, to be honest with you. It's really exciting. You know, a great place to start would be I know you have a fantastic background. If you give us a little bit of your background, yeah, let's start there.

At first, buddy, I'm really happy to hear you guys. And yeah, it's my heart project, it's my life. I started in music several years ago. Oh, by the way, 30 years ago, as a sound engineer. And I was always fascinated about the audio, about the goosebumps when you listen to something. And then in my last 14 years when I worked for Red Bull, lucky me, I had the chance to put a lot of sensor stuff on the athletes. And what happened? We identified that there is a sense, our hearing sense, which we we ignored the sense like a bit, we overvisualized the people, and therefore I had the idea to reactivate especially the sense and to bring it back to people. And for the summit, but also for you guys, perhaps I have some little surprises. For example, you should hear my heartbeat now. And you know what happened? I just use the standard sensor which we have, and I brought it back to audio. I call it audiolize. And the riot they do is very simple. Imagine if you show some somebody a graphic which tells you in a number 160 BPM. You say, What does it mean? But when you bring it back to audio, everybody knows exactly this is a high heartbeat, a low heartbeat, this guy is cool or not cool, or something like this. And another test, and hopefully, you will love it. I had the chance to put, as I've said, a lot of microphones on a body of an extreme athlete. And what I did, I just brought together this sound, and when we are lucky now, you can hear the sound in perfect quality, and you should listen to his breathing, and then I will tell you what we can do out of this. So let's try.

Let's go.

So you hear the breathing. You hear how he's yeah.

So what should we learn from that?

You can hear the break from from the bike, you can hear a lot of other stuff, and in combination, for example, with moving image, which is synchronized, you you have a perfect effect. And with the audio lice again, we did tests, so we combined the moving image recording with the audio, we played it back to the athletes, and there was an immediate kind of recognition, a kind of memorizing, and a better kind of understanding what they did before when they, for example, did the exercise. So imagine instead of this over-vising, instead of this kind of showing numbers, I bring it back to a realistic audio which everybody can understand. And it could be your real heartbeat, it could be a kind of sound sphere. Imagine you have your headphone in the ears, and when your perhaps your heartbeat is too high, uh, a voice which is below you at the exactly in the place your heart is will tell you, hey buddy, you should calm down a bit, or you should you can uh activate yourself a bit more. That's exactly what I'm doing. So I uh build this audio interfaces, I bring it back to a kind of 3D audio experience, and uh I combine it with moving images but also with the graphics.

And I think this is super interesting, and you've also started to experiment with this kind of stuff when you were still at the Red Bull Media House, which you also built up uh from scratch, starting 2007 as a chief technology and then as chief innovation officer. So the the question is: do you have any actionable real feedback on how this really helps to increase the athlete's performance?

Everybody knows about mental training. And you prepare yourself for the training, but it also when you finished your training, you want to have a kind of reference, you want to ref have a reflection, you want to play it back, you want to learn. And the experience in especially the feedback from the athletes is that the audio is a really main feedback puzzle piece now, because you immediately understand what you did: your breathing, your heartbeat, the sound of your bike, the sound of your sport equipment, and because of the fact that it's the exactly the same sound experience while you did your sport exercise, the people can immediately remember what they did before. You know what I mean? So it's perfect for training, for repetition, and without the audio, it's much harder for them to transfer, for example, numbers or metadata into a real, I would say, storable information into the brain.

So, what you're saying is that this is the shortcut in terms of uh biofeedback, which requires just intuition and active listening instead of just trying to analyze all the numbers around.

Exactly. Because we people, our brains are perfect for this.

Andy, can you give us like a very practical and common use case for this? Like I'm understanding it. I'm not 100% wrapping my head around it yet, which means that probably people listening are the same. So, like you mentioned a mountain biker or a specific type of athlete. Like, how is this type of approach and this technology used in a general application?

Learning and training, especially in Dream Board or sports business, I give you an example, perhaps Red Bull rampage, where the crazy guys went down uh with a mountain bike, the bike down the hill. And imagine you have uh POV, a GoPro camera, in combination with all the sound sensors, you record it while they do this this race down. At the end, when when they are in the finish, you play them back immediately what they did. And in this moment, they memorize, they reflect, they record it, they learn out of it in a much uh easier way. And they this is the effect which we are now sharing also with universities. But it's a simple explained exact exactly what the people want to hear because while you are doing your exercise, you're much more concentrated on other things. But when you have the time after your exercise to keep an eye on it and hear it again, then it's much better for you for the next training. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and I would imagine with the audio input, visualization is such a powerful thing for athletes or just any person, entrepreneurs, whoever, anyone who's looking to perform well in some arena, and having that audio input probably helps the visualization process be more amplified. Was that am I correct or am I wrong in saying that?

Other thing, go back to a motorbike guy. Yeah, a lot of people think about what's about a head-up display and a helmet. Imagine you have to to ride your bike, you have to be serious, you watch on the street, you look on the street, and then you will get additional visual information. They are disturbing you. And now instead of the head-up visual information, I offer the motorbike guy a surround sound experience, which is much better for him because on the one side he can focus on the visual, on the reality, on the street, and on the other side, I bring back to him relevant metadata information as a kind of audio audio sound design, or like the heartbeat, or when you have a problem with your engine, you will get an audio message instead of a visual message. And that's exactly uh what I mean. You rebalance the senses instead of over-visualizing and stressing your eyes, your visual system, you rebalance it and you delegate a lot of information back to the ears.

I think this is super interesting because you're creating the augmented reality layer, which doesn't have to do with the external reality, but rather with the internal reality to understand your own senses, your own body, or your own function at the moment. And at the same time, we know that the market for wearables is to grow by almost 30% by 2020, and primarily due to hearables, interestingly enough. And what do you think? Where is the market developing the next three to five years in terms of wearables, hearables? How would the different kinds of products uh look like in the future?

I would say because of the fact that we have a kind of explosion in the headphone market or earplugs market in the moment, a lot of manufacturers will combine it with artificial intelligence as exactly with this kind of audio interfaces, because artificial intelligence could be the right puzzle piece to support you exactly in this area to translate metadata back to audio instead of giving you something on your display. And I'm 100% sure I know already that there are some manufacturers in the market who are concentrating on this exactly uh because of the fact that the people come back to accept more and more a good headphone, earplug, and the audio.

I also guess that has to do with the Zoom fatigue, we just can't see the monitors anymore.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Andy, in your opinion, who's who's doing it right now?

In this area, I would say Charbra, for example. They did uh first night nice headphones with integrated artificial intelligence. There are some manufacturers for bone conduction headphones who start to combine it with artificial intelligence interfaces. I would also say the big ones like Apple are experimenting in this area in combination with 3D sound. Everybody's working on it. I I just wait for the first big ones, the big ideas. But I would say we have some nice companies, manufacturers in Europe, like I said, Java, but also the existing ones like Sennheiser and Sony and other ones, as I've said. But I'm nearly sure that also Apple is doing the homework in this area.

And Anik, for the for those listening and me as well, can you dive into a little bit of what exactly bone conduction technology is?

So if you uh could see me now on screen, you would see that I have no earplugs anymore in my ears. I use a special device which is translating audio directly from the skin to the bone, and uh therefore I don't need a headphone anymore. It's a direct bone uh conduction, and I can hear you guys in perfect uh quality without closing my ears. So my ears are not closed or closed by an earplug or a headphone. Uh my ears are open two ten centimeters from the center of the ear. You uh have a little kind of device which is close to the skin, and this is the transfer directly to your bone. And as I've said, I can hear you guys. The waves are transferred through this bone conduction.

I need a pair of those for sure. That sounds really interesting. When I look at technology, it always has a weird way of starting in specific areas. In the United States, we love our military, they get all the money, they get all the research. And usually it starts there and then it trickles down. Where did this type of technology or where is it do you think being used the most? And how do you start to see it kind of trickling down to the everyday consumer?

I would say in all kinds of areas like skiing, motorbike, mountain bike, where you um have to wear a helmet and you need a kind of auto audio interface orientation uh support system that could work immediately and will work. I know that there are motorbike manufacturers who are working on this. So Natalia said before, augmented reality not only in a visual way, but also for as a kind of audio system in combination. So for imagine you're a skier, you're on a pist, and this audio system is also an augmented reality warning system, giving you exactly from the direction where the other person is coming from a signal or a sound so that you're sensibly. That's exactly what happens in combination with helmet sports, but also in the extreme sport area as a kind of learning, mental training, biofeedback system, I would say is also a market, but the helmet area is in the focus in the moment.

So as we look at the applications for our industry, the fitness industry, you know, and we started to see it. Natalia and I were talking about this prior recording about some places we're starting to see it pop up in the last few years. When directly applied to the general population and fitness and health, what's your vision for our industry?

Like I said before, that we should really reactivate the stuff. We should take care about the whole aura of a body, not only concentrate on several uh parts uh of the body, that we should reactivate the senses, that we should use the digital tools in a perfect balance. So that means always in a human-centric way. I would say that we are doing a lot of good things on the one side because we learned out of the pan pandemic situation that when the people are always at home, they need to go out, they need to find alternatives, they need to reactivate themselves, they need to reactivate and activate the whole body, not only little parts of the body. Therefore, I would say the human-centric use of digital products which gives you a maximum benefit, will be the next steps. I see it by the way. Every day now, when I'm together and connected to the young creators, production people, but also in the fitness area, they are really interested about the human being in a perfect balance with high technology. And I'll give you another example. The big problem which we have in the moment, we have better microphones than our ears, we have better cameras compared to our eyes, we have better robotic systems, we're more powerful. Our computers are much more faster compared to us. Therefore, the interfaces which we are building for bringing back computer information to the human means always scale down or slow down. And this kind of slowdown and scale down is not a negative effect, it just means we need to understand that the human needs a different kind of way how to bring informations back. And when you're doing this in a one-way position, just as a kind of visual information, then it would be wrong if you use all senses to bring it back, but for example, also touched senses, then you have a perfect package and a human being will understand it in a much faster way. Got it?

Yeah, and I think it's such a good point because if you come to think about that, the human narratives were also always told, like you know, the Tales in the cave. That was just by the power of your voice and by the power of your hearing that you can understand the information and convey this information. And interestingly enough, today we see that the podcast market is totally booming. Like, for example, the United States, we had 32 million active listeners of podcasts 2013, and this number grew to over 100 million listeners in 2020. So obviously, podcasts like on the content side are being rediscovered. There's new on the media side, there are new marketing formats. There are different apps like Aura, which is audio workouts. We have the zombie run. This is all audio information which is being conveyed right into your ear. Andy, what do you think? What would be like the best kind of the combination of content on the one hand and the uh technology the platform, the hardware on the other hand, for fitness goals to enhance human performance?

My my dream would be to have an avatar on your site, not only as a kind of visual body, an avatar body, audio body who is a caretaker for the whole day. I also have to ring the hour ring. And imagine during the meeting, you will get whispered audio information that you should calm down. You cannot do this on a display. But when you have in any case the earplugs headphone on, and you will get this information from your body, your digital body, then I would say this is a perfect service. And my dream is to develop this kind of soft and hardware in combination with audio experiences, sound design, sound templates in a 3D surrounding, so that they are always surrounded and that you get more and more connected to your body, which is your whisperer, connected just ear to ear, and nobody can hear it. Just it's a connection, a direct connection between your body, and you don't need to watch uh or look on your smartphone display. It's much more in team link, I would say.

It look it's an intimate experience. I was just thinking, like previously, you had a lover whispering into your ear with soft words, and today it's just an AI coach. How tragic is that, actually?

Yeah. And I don't need Siri or Alexa for this. I perhaps can choose my personal voice, female, male, I don't know, gender-free. And this voice is my whisperer. Yeah, my body, my side to side.

One of the things I'm picking up here, Andy, in in my mind is that I think when the the industry looks at something like hearable or audio, they think purely instructional, right? Well, just do this many reps, do this, just directions and instructions. But what you're talking about is is experiential. Like even in the beginning of this podcast, when you brought on the heartbeat, I was like, whoa, it blew my mind because I was like, God, this is a whole nother level that I've never really thought about in my podcast. What if I had more experiential sounds? What if I had wind blowing or a crowd laughing or what all what all of that? And I think, and that's something that I'm picking up from you is that this can be far greater from an experiential standpoint for the industry if they learn how to use it. You can hear me. Yeah, so cool.

Are you excited? You are more excited than before.

Exactly in that sense. This topic got him excited. Yeah. Before I was I was I had 72 beats per minute, now I'm at 90 because I'm so fascinated speaking with you guys about this. Hey, what we're doing is a kind of support. This retranslation, I call it audiolize, is so important. And because of the fact that a good audio message is a perfect emotionalizer, I always say, let's use it also for the fit tech.

But I also think on the therapeutic side, this is super important. There's a couple of companies uh out there, like health students from combined Vienna and uh LA, that are offering streaming audio service to improve your physical or mental health. So this is specifically targeting the patient's market. On the other hand, we also have Endel, which is a Berlin-based app done by Russians, very proud of that, it's been Russian. And they just had this cooperation with the Grimes, a girlfriend of Elon Musk, where they created kind of AI lullaby for their child. So we have lots of new applications which help you to relax as much as also to perform. And the question is, Andy, what do you think? How will the market for your therapy for the medical purposes develop in the next years?

You said Endel and the Berlin guys. That's a nice example. We have HealthTunes, we have a lot of other companies, small ones. I would say the lucky one is Eric, because in the US, the kind of audit therapy is much more accepted in a positive way. Here in Europe, we always think this is an esoteric stuff. In the US, there were a lot of great studies in partnership with the UCLA, and they see that is a therapy effect, a very positive one. And therefore, I would say let's learn from our colleagues in the US. They do much more in this area. We don't see and hear it in the moment, Natalia, because the Europeans are so different in a way to accept such a new kind of understanding. But it will come. I know that there are three, four, five startups and also companies already existing, like the HealthTunes guys, they have studies, they share the studies, and this therapy enhancement effect. So, for example, when you're in a bad mood and you combine it with the right sounds, it always has this kind of hey, I bring you back to a normal state effect. You cannot do this with just a moving image or with a picture. In combination with the audio or just with the right audio, you're much much faster in the relaxation mode.

The question is only what kind of effect do you want to get with the um thing? Because sometimes you just want to get drowned in your sadness the way you get drowned in alcohol. So sometimes you just want to get even more depressed if you're already feeling bad.

But for this, we have the recipes, we have the inquiry, the sound templates. There are so many experienced sound engineers in the market working, for example, for the Hollywood cinema industry, they know exactly which kind of sound effect you should use to bring you up or down.

I see a lot of this being obviously direct to consumer, right? The tech companies being able to go directly to consumer. When I look at the industry, how does uh a fitness coach, right? Someone who's quote unquote in the trenches, on the floor with clients, right, looking for an edge to get ahead in this highly competitive fitness industry. What where what where do the trainers and the gym owners, where do they come in? What can they start to be looking forward to? Where how can they start to leverage the audio experience in their day-to-day work?

At first, Eric, in our area, the trainers, the coaches have a big problem because they are not in real contact, in direct contact with their clients. So the only way they can communicate is in the virtual way, but the reference, and that's also a learning, the kind of reference link, this this kind of trust link is the voice. So imagine in future when we still have the problem that we cannot always be in a real connection, that we need to work together a coach and his client in a kind of uh virtual way. I could offer as a coach my voice as a kind of template to a KI system, and then the avatar, the body, which we discussed before, has exactly your tonality, your melody, the voice of your coach. It could be also the voice or the sound of an other person, but I would say also the way how a coach is using his voice and audio to influence you, to speak with you, the kind of body language in the voice is so important. We should train coaches in this in this area. That's my recommendation. The same I train a lot of people how to use cameras. I do exactly the same how to use the microphones. But I also we should also train them how to use your body language, your acoustic body language to influence the people. The past three years were a big problem for me because we always over-visualized. We thought when we use the camera, just the moving image, everything is fine. Instead of my voice offered a kind of speech-to-text functionality so that you have you to read something while you're watching uh the moving image. We should come back to the real voice. We should train the coaches, use the voice in the right way, like they do in the real world, and you will have a positive effect.

Let's just imagine this thing. Let's imagine that there's gonna be a first audio on the gym on the planet. How would the gym this gym look like and feel like, Andy? What would be the component, what would be the the the contents of such a gym?

Uh a virtuous gym, for example, would be a 3D surround uh area. You don't need a surround system anymore, you need just a good earplug or headphone system, and then you can simulate a surround sound. It's a complete different experience compared to mono austere. Because when something is coming from behind you, the coach whispering you, it's completely different, like a direct message in front of your brain. You know what I mean? Yeah, we should we should work on this, build an coach audio aura with a head up uh display in the car, but let's transfer it into the audio surrounding.

Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm just imagining this dark restaurant where you come in, the lights are off, you have to leave your gadgets outside, and you just uh feel the taste of the food. Why don't we create a dark gym where you just train with just the voice in the complete darkness of the way to make sure it's secure by the way?

That's such a great idea because when you're in the dark, you're hearing senses much more active and you listen to your body in a much better way. Sometimes you don't need the visual direct contact, you just should yeah uh activate the other senses which you have on your body.

Absolutely, absolutely. Also in martial arts training, for example, there's lots of exercises that you have to do with your eyes closed, blindfolded, or just in the dark, or just closed, because this is a that's a completely different level of being the master of your body and of your senses. That's true.

Yeah. We are just bombarded with so much visual stimulus all the time. And I think it's coming out from this angle is no, it's so funny because it's literally been part, it's so core to what we do is having this audio experience in our everyday lives, every second, every minute. Maybe even when we're sleeping, we don't know it. But we for it's like the forgotten sense when it comes to the industry overall. And that's what's really exciting about it. And I know that you're gonna be this is the topic that you're gonna be tackling for the most part. Um am I right at the Fit Tech Summit, Andy? Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're gonna be covering in that chat?

At first, I will show a lot of examples, moving images in combination with audio interfaces. I will share with the people the surround sound experiences. I will offer some examples of how the heartbeat sounds directly from below your body in this area. And I will also ask the people, like Natalia said, to close the eyes and just listen to something and then give us a kind of feedback on a web interface, how they feel. I call it this kind of mood feedback system. And another effect is that in combination with music or sound, your time reception, your time feeling will change immediately. And I use the I said it to Natalia, the summit also as a kind of training and experimenting camp and share uh as much as possible this kind of a content pieces which I have in my pool.

We're looking forward to that, Andy.

Good one.

Two questions for you guys. Andy, where where do people go to find out more about you and what you're doing? And then Natalia, after that, where do people go to find more about the FedTech Summit and what Andy's gonna be talking about? Andy, you first.

Very simple. I I love LinkedIn, and that's that's my website, by the way. Um I also have a website, but I love to, especially in the B2B area, to interact with the people. There are a lot of B2C specialists who are much more better than me. I'm proud to be connected to them and give them possibilities. I share with them all the content. I'm I see myself as a supporter, a wings giver, and uh therefore LinkedIn is the perfect platform for me. So you can always find me there. I totally agree.

Wasn't just content marketing for Red Bull, the Wingsgiver?

No, Wingsgiver, Wingsgiver, by the way, is my spirit. I learned this uh from the brand, which I really love, I still learn in love. But giving wings to people, ideas, and concepts is a perfect sense. Because yeah, that's what we should do every day.

True.

Natello, where do people go to find out more about seeing and hearing Andy in the FitTech Summit?

It's quite simple. Just check out fittechsummit.com for the program for the speakers to get to know more about what we're gonna be talking about. And if you guys want to connect to me directly, I spend half of my life um of my waiting hours on LinkedIn. So go find me there and let's connect.

Right on. Well, Andy, thank you for sprouting some wings on all our listeners today. And Natalia, it's always a pleasure to converse with you and talk about fitness tech and big ideas. It's been a it's been a real honor. So thank you guys. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Eric, for helping us. Whether it was a pleasure.

Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Fitness. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it, iTunes, Spotify, Castbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. We want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me, simply go to the futureoffitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone, and this is the future of fitness. Have a great day.