Troy Taylor - Tonal & The Future of "Intelligent Fitness"

[00:00:02] Hey everybody, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness industry podcast for over four years and running. I am your host, Eric Malzone, and I have the absolute pleasure of talking to entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, and cutting-edge technology experts within the extremely fast-paced

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[00:01:47] Go to connectedhealthandfitness.com to download the agenda and find out more. Use code F-O-F-10 for an exclusive 10% discount on your event ticket. Visit connectedhealthandfitness.com, code F-O-F-10 and do not wait. Seats are very limited. All right, we are live. Troy Taylor, welcome to the future of fitness.

[00:02:11] Thanks for having me on, Eric. Really appreciate being here. Yeah, it's going to be fun. You know, as we were just talking about, I'm excited to get an update on where Tonal is. You know, we're in Q3 2023. I've been using it for a while. I love it.

[00:02:26] I still like it. It's a hit? Yeah. I know you're not looking at my metrics because they're not as impressive as I hope they would be. But, you know, there's a lot of things to chat about, you know, the world of connected

[00:02:37] fitness and I think one of the big things that we can kind of pull out of this and tease the listeners with is, you know, how does connected move to intelligent fitness, right? And how Tonal is doing that overall.

[00:02:50] So let's just set the table with this, Troy, if you don't mind. I know you have an extensive background, but just give us, you know, a summary of your experience within the industry and then we'll take it from there.

[00:03:00] Yeah, I tell two stories or two parts of my career. The first 20 years, sort of undergraduate and sports science master's degree in ex FIS, I'm British so was over in England doing those during my master's degree.

[00:03:15] I started volunteering for the British Olympic swim team just, you know, collecting data, you know, running blood samples, things like that. I'd love sport was not that good as an athlete, but I like I found something that I really liked and really enjoyed.

[00:03:29] And so I was really fortunate. I was really at that I would say the takeoff of sports science, particularly within the UK, but also, you know, later within the US and North America. And so I was fortunate to get a job straight out of my master's degree,

[00:03:43] working with some university level athletes and British Olympic track and field sprinters and sort of basically over the next 15 to 20 years, essentially built a career around sports science, strength and conditioning. I got to work for three different Olympic teams.

[00:03:57] So Team GB, Team Canada and Team USA went to seven Olympic games, worked with 500 Olympians, 50 Olympic medalists, which fortunate to be the high performance director at USSK and Snowboard from 2015 through 2021, so like the Poyong Chong Olympic Games.

[00:04:16] So what to work with people like Lindsay Vaughn and Sean White and Mikaela Schiffrin and stuff like that and running performance team. So so really, you know, really fortunate to kind of work in that career. And while I was sort of starting back at the ski team or

[00:04:30] I also worked for the Trino Olympics for the ski team, but I came back in 2015 was really like the integration, I would say, of really technology into the sport and it was really starting to take off on a much wider scale

[00:04:43] and much more accessible than it had been in the past. And like part of my job at the team was seeking out new innovations. How do we keep up with the best in the world? How do we make sure that we're standing on the top of the podium?

[00:04:54] And so I kind of like started working on, you know, I was in Park City. I still am, but a couple of hours from Silicon Valley had a lot of sort of ski team donors that were involved in the technology space.

[00:05:05] And so really just started playing in that space. We ran technology projects to improve elite performance around things like transcranial direct current brain stimulation, halo back in the day. We ran projects around virtual reality. We worked with Stryver.

[00:05:21] We were probably one of the first Olympic or professional teams to sort of integrate that. And so really just a thing is a computational fluid dynamics, a whole bunch of projects. And I really liked the startup technology space. I started then consulting for, you know, still

[00:05:38] in my with my hat, the ski team job on, but for things like Comcast Sports Tech, when it was an early sort of proponent or partner in that kind of project with study adventures and others. And so just really started immersing in my in that space.

[00:05:54] And then 2021 came around and I'd had a tunnel. I got one for the ski team before the pandemic. We we loved it. I thought it was an incredible piece of kit, was a super fan of it. And they came around and said, hey, we're starting this performance

[00:06:10] innovation department, this sort of strength institute. Would you would you like to come and be a part of it? And I thought it was a unique opportunity to combine my passion of human performance.

[00:06:20] I feel like not done it all in elite sport, but done a lot in elite sport. I'd really enjoyed I was getting a huge buzz out of the startup world and the fitness world. And so I was like, yeah, let's let's go and do that.

[00:06:32] And then two years later, I'm still here. It's been a roller coaster, I would say. You know, rocket ship for about 12 or 18 months and definitely sort of readjustments now in terms of that. But it's been super fun and I really enjoy the role

[00:06:49] and the opportunity to company and honestly, our opportunity is still our opportunity and our potential to really, really revolutionize how a lot of people train. Yeah, great. I love the summary, man. And you know, I think one of the questions

[00:07:03] that a lot of people may be thinking now, whether they know it or not, is, you know, now that we've kind of come out of the pandemic, there was, you know, quote unquote, pandemic darlings, right? Which make a lot of sense.

[00:07:14] The connected home fitness market was one of them. See a lot of headlines, you know, Peloton still in the headlines constantly. At least this week again. Yeah, yeah, it's it's and people got I don't why people are fascinated by it.

[00:07:29] It's like as soon as like something comes out about Peloton, people have to like throw in their hat about like their opinion on all of it. What's like, you know, what do you really know? Do you work at the company? No, you don't.

[00:07:39] So just, you know, everyone has to have an opinion. Anyway, I digress. How is how is Tonal now coming out of the pandemic? Now things are starting to settle a little bit into what we would consider more of a normal market, right? How are things going?

[00:07:55] Yeah, they're going well. I like when I think about it, like, you know, Tonal, you know, Ali fadded in 2015, released the product very small scale at the end of 2018. It wasn't really till the pandemic that we were starting to sort of,

[00:08:08] you know, ship any level of units out there and kind of things at scale. And so you've got this company that's got, you know, incredible products, game changing product and people like me from Olympic sport and working professional, you're choosing it for their athletes.

[00:08:22] And then you pour the lighter fluid of a, you know, confines of pandemic that thankfully we're out of and or for the most part, not not an issue anymore. And then you're like, it's just all hands on deck to try and scale as quick

[00:08:34] as possible and take take a take a chance of the opportunity that is presented in in front of you. And so that was, you know, an incredible 12, 18 months that I was involved with company and before around doing that. And then, yeah, things, things change.

[00:08:48] The market dynamics have changed. That's like no one's aware of that. And then so it's like, you know, there's about six to nine months, maybe 12 months, more my senior leadership team than me. They're sort of, you know, reorientating, right sizing the business

[00:08:59] for what the future looks like, not necessarily, you know, still we've still got healthy growth, but not 20 X growth, like it was in the middle of the pandemic. And so you're kind of re-adjust right sizing, getting the operations and systems in places.

[00:09:11] And really, I would say for us doing some of the things that you might have to do when you're like one to two years into a startup around finding your niche, making sure you have your target messaging, all of those kind of incremental things.

[00:09:23] We kind of didn't have to do as much because everyone was buying our product. It didn't matter if you were resistance, trending experience, you were first time beginner, you were professional sports athletes, like everyone needed home fitness equipment. We were an incredible product.

[00:09:36] And so it's kind of been, it's been, it was a challenging sort of nine or 12 months, particularly sort of back end of 2022. But sort of, you know, reorientating the business. And now we're in a solid place. We have healthy growth.

[00:09:49] We have the right size team for taking advantage. We are, you know, we have a solid plan around who our target customer is and how do we talk to them and how do we provide value and start to understand or continue to understand

[00:10:04] what their unique challenges are and how we help solve them more so. And I think, you know, the future is going to be different. It was in the high of the pandemic. There's still like the home fitness market is still growing.

[00:10:17] There's still more people that are working out from home kind of things. But there's also more of a hybrid environment, right? There's more people, some doing some in the gym, some at home. Some people that are only doing in the gym.

[00:10:27] And so like it's really around us and other companies like us to take advantage of that opportunity and plot that forward. And I think that's what we're kind of focused on as a company. How is the, you know, now post pandemic,

[00:10:39] how as the, I guess, ideal consumer model for you guys, like who is the ideal consumer now? Because, you know, that gave us unusual data, right? But what do you guys see now? Yeah, I think whatever you're thinking about sort of target customers,

[00:10:55] it's there's a like a now customer and then there's a future customer. I the possibilities and for tonal are endless. Like the ability to the dynamic weights, you know, digital weight, you know, all of that in your home or potentially in other environments.

[00:11:11] I think, you know, there is an enormous opportunity for that right now. I would say that the biggest opportunity for us is in those that are like more experienced in already resistance training that, you know,

[00:11:25] time things kind bound, they either can't or don't want to get to the gym. They're looking for alternative solutions that are in their home. We're a relatively expensive product, like it's not that we're, you know, 100 bucks. So, you know, you've got to have a fair level of investment

[00:11:39] to be pretty interesting. And so I think that's where we're orientated. People that are more fitness enthusiastic in nature that have some experience. Straight to I'd say is target customer number one, you could go concentric circles out of that and we have a lot of beginners on our

[00:11:52] platform, a lot of people that have never trained, a lot of people that sort of, you know, so we can talk around the data on only populations, whether there is a strange or not. There's a lot of markets where we can fit, but I think, you know,

[00:12:02] our key target audience is that that fitness enthusiastic that with already some experience in strength training, then most likely who's going to be buying our product right now. And then over time, as we service them and we can things, they become a great advocate for us, right?

[00:12:17] Word of mouth. Those are the people that people look towards. You know, people that were on this into listening to this podcast or where people get their information from about where they're going to to buy their future. So over the next two, three, four, five years

[00:12:30] or whatever that market grows opportunities where we can start servicing and thinking about other target customers. But I think that's where we're at right now. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. It really does. You know, it's not rocket science. Yeah, it's a ton of sense.

[00:12:43] Let's say them once. We want to sell them that total is the best possible training device for them, not necessarily that resistance training is good for them. That's a conversation we can have and should have and will continue to have.

[00:12:54] And part of my role is the advocates of that. Like I would love people just to resistance. You use total, don't use total. Obviously, I'd love it if you do. I'm an advocate for resistance training. I think it's got huge benefits.

[00:13:05] I think there's a ton of research around that. So obviously, I want to grow that market. Eventually, I think as a company want to grow that and help grow that. But right now, I think the key focus is on people that are already

[00:13:15] resistance training have some experience and how do we best service them to make an undeniable choice that they should choose total? Yeah, it is a great device. I mean, it's you know, I mix both.

[00:13:25] I was telling you, I'll go to the gym a couple of days a week. I'll do my back squats and things like that. Mainly because I just need to get out of the house, right? Like, but for convenience sake, once or twice a week

[00:13:37] and then it'll increase in the winter, it's great. You know, 30 to 60 minutes. I now I kind of custom my own workouts, but there's a lot of great plans on there with trainers that I follow to kind of get some new ideas

[00:13:49] on my training, but I'm a creature habit. I kind of know the few simple things that I like to do and I stick to them and seem to work for now. But let's get into your what your task with doing, I guess,

[00:14:02] you're really on the performance side of things and going from now you mentioned pre art, according, you know, we're trying to go from connected fitness to intelligent fitness. So frame that for me. What exactly does that mean? You remind them will take it from there.

[00:14:15] Yeah, I think it's I think it's critical like hardware is hard, way harder than I realized before I started working for a hardware related company. But like, you know, it's on its own. It while it is, you know, unique and getting out of pattern infringement,

[00:14:28] but that lots of people can create some hardware and arguably a reasonable number of company can stick people on, you know, coaches on video screens. A lot of companies in kind of things. So just that connected fitness, there's, you know, huge advantages

[00:14:40] to something like tonal in that space. But on its own, I don't see that as a true, you know, long term massive differentiator necessarily directly. What I think the opportunity in the space that I get to play and is that move from just purely connected.

[00:14:53] This is this is a TV screen and a really smart device to intelligent fitness, which is really my kind of estimation. The blending between people like me and my team. So like, you know, we got PhDs, master's degree, exercise, every personal training certification under the sun and things.

[00:15:10] So the expert human performance knowledge combined with expert big data, AI, artificial intelligence to bring to you insights and personalization that you can't necessarily get on your own or you don't. It's very difficult to do, you know, something like, you know, simply like volume tracking.

[00:15:29] It's a pain in the butt to like manually do that, whether it's an Excel training, something that we just collect constantly. So we can understand that reps in reserve is, you know, people may know, you know, I think listen to this podcast,

[00:15:41] we'll not understand the kind idea of reps in reserve, really useful training tool for some particular kind of things. People's ability to do it, you know, definitely when they're more beginner is not that great, gets better as they get advanced.

[00:15:52] AI, you know, looking at velocity data, range of motion data can start interpreting those things and bringing those insights. Hey, you should start shutting it down now or something we find is a study came out, I think, last year at Southampton,

[00:16:07] I think the average person using free weights in the gym studied thousands of people like lifted 51% of their 1 RM or something. It was a relatively low. If they were doing, you know, 20 something reps and, you know, obviously different goals, different weights for different goals.

[00:16:21] But on average, you're saying people are trying to maybe increase muscle mass resistance training and they're doing doing 20 reps. Maybe they're getting somewhat close to failure. But the average reps was 10 and we know 10 reps at 51 50% 1 RM, you're going to have six, seven, eight reps in reserve at least.

[00:16:35] You're not really pushing yourself that hard. So it's unsurprising that people are not making gains out of doing that. They're going in, they're doing the work, some of the work. But then not necessarily with artificial intelligence, suggested weights. You probably experienced when you used to pretty much,

[00:16:50] you know, 92% level of accuracy, pretty much every single set to get you to a one to two RAR. And so I think it's that combination. The intelligence is, is really capturing the brain of not necessarily me,

[00:17:01] but my team and that and combining it with this huge data set of. We're just talking things about 150 billion pounds lifted, three billion reps, 25 million training sessions. And we're not talking like college age 18 to 24 year olds, 18 year olds to 80 year olds, 55% male, 45% female.

[00:17:23] Like you can start applying very specific data to them. And that's, I get goosebumps talking about that's freaking excited. Like you can like you can't use this big data with this performance expertise. And obviously, I don't want to underplay design,

[00:17:37] bringing that in a really, you can have things merge that together to really revolutionize how people train. So that's that's what intelligent strength and intelligent fitness means to me. Yeah, that's great. I mean, the use two of my happy trigger words, which is big data and AI.

[00:17:51] The I mean, how do you take all that data? And you alluded to it, but how do you take all that data? All these reps and start to make it more useful to the consumer.

[00:18:00] And at the end of the day, you know, get them better health and performance outcomes. Yeah, it's it's not easy. I'm not going to lie. It's not something like, you know, when I turn up, oh, we've got this great data set. Like let me get in Google Sheets.

[00:18:12] I can write some R code too. Like I kind of think like, honestly, elite sport, that the data sets are working with 10, 20,000 rows. I can kind of handle like, you know, I got, I'm not bad on Tableau or Power BI.

[00:18:23] I can write some, some code if I had to. I'm pretty, pretty useful. When you start talking about tone or his level of data set, you need an expert data science team number one and to do that.

[00:18:33] And number two, then you need to be really targeted in the questions that you ask and how you're setting that up. Yes. And that's where we were. I and the performance team come in is partnering with the data science team to make sure we're asking the right questions

[00:18:46] to give us a chance of what the data can find for us. So like tangible examples of that, we've just been diving a little bit, just scratching the surface and we're still relatively early stage of this, but some of our 55 year old plus population, you know,

[00:18:58] how active aging is a, you know, a T demographic that benefits of resistance training to healthy active aging. The data on that only increases almost daily. We've got arguably the world's largest data set of 55 year old plus trainers

[00:19:12] and kind of things, thousands or tens of thousands of 55 plus year olds at least. And so what we're going there is like, OK, well, let's start with broad and then let's get specific. So like what kind of not looking at any training methodologies,

[00:19:25] just how do people use it and what kind of adaptations do they make? So, you know, take a subset, say 20,000 users, 55 plus. OK, does it difference between male and female? I'm actually fine in our database just looking at the means

[00:19:39] females start to increase more in strength than males. Maybe I can't tell you this is, you know, it's not an RCT or randomized control trial. Well, I know everything about what they did, but you might say that they start as relatively weaker. The older population, particularly females,

[00:19:55] probably less resistance trained have more ceiling to it. But over the first year, we see sort of men increased by about 50 percent on average, me not the best case cherry pick kind of a, you know, men increase by about 50 percent women by about 70 by year two.

[00:20:10] Men are up to about 70 percent increases and women, I think, were at 90 90 plus percent increases. So OK, well, they both make nice increase. Then like, let's take a variable. Today I'm joined by Curtis Christofferson on my very first micro interview in the future of fitness.

[00:20:26] Kurt is the owner and founder of Workout and Innovative Fitness. He is a 20 year veteran in the wellness space and he's got the success to prove it. He's also a long term friend and colleague. Kurt just recently launched a newsletter called Healthy Ambitions

[00:20:41] to give back to the industry that's given him so much. His goal to help other entrepreneurs scale their wellness businesses just like he has. All right, Kurt, what is one actionable insight you can provide our listeners that has been incredibly valuable to you in your business career?

[00:20:57] Wow, powerful question. And I could have so many answers to that one. But, you know, I'd say that, you know, the biggest element of scaling your business is hiring the right people. And without the right people, you can't scale.

[00:21:08] And, you know, one of my token rules is hire people that you admire. Hire who you admire. When you do that, chances are the people that you admire have some levels, experience, education or impact that you might not be able to provide.

[00:21:22] And so when you hire people that you admire and the value that they bring to your organization, inevitably they're going to help you scale your business. No matter how big or small it is, when you hire people that are unlike yourself, that contribute value

[00:21:37] that you can't contribute, you're winning. And so my biggest rule, hire who you admire, whether it's the things that you admire about them around their education, experience, impact or even how they lead their personal life. I think when you surround yourself with great people, you're winning the day.

[00:21:54] Oh, that's awesome. Kurt, thank you so much for that. And if you guys want to learn more, please check out the Healthy Ambitions newsletter. You can go to Kurtis, Christopherson.com to subscribe and learn more about it and all the great content he's putting out there.

[00:22:06] Thank you, Kurt. Awesome. Thanks. Weekly consistency, let's say, how frequent do people work out? Not over six weeks or eight weeks. Let's look at a year's worth of data and see how that impacts them. What we see is if in that population, people who train once a week

[00:22:22] make about 25% increase in industry. Not bad. Once a week, pretty good kind of things. Twice, 58%. Suddenly goes up. Well, I think it was two to three times a week. Kind of things. More than three times, yeah, you get 105% or something increase. But it's not, it plateaus up.

[00:22:39] OK, so we can see that consistency and weekly workouts does have an impact. But you can make meaningful impacts in a 55 plus year old with once a week, you can make some, some things. If you can get in twice, you're kind of doubling those gains. Pretty significant.

[00:22:54] So that's an example of just diving in. OK, so now when we design a 55 plus year old program, OK, how do we take some of that data? Maybe we could look at something like the exercise selections that they prefer to do or they have done

[00:23:09] or they get less feedback and how do we integrate that into their training program for the masses and then look at more of an individual level going down the rabbit hole. What do you not that you're or I a 55 plus yet, get close but not there.

[00:23:21] But like where do I or you like to do and also shows you have results using this big data or people like you 40 to 50 year old male is that have a goal of building muscle? OK, that's my cohort. Let's dive in. Here's 75,000 of them.

[00:23:38] You know, what are the average typical changes and how do we do that and what are the distributions? So that's some of the ways that we can start to use that data, both to sort of inform our product development and our curriculum development.

[00:23:49] And that's one of the spaces where me and my team space, we partner with the coaches and and sort of write a lot of the curriculum. And then the other piece is how do we bring performance into the product? So like almost like performance principles.

[00:24:03] I can write curriculum that has progressive overload and you know, sad principle and X, Y and Z. That's I don't want to say nuts and bolts, but it's not so overly difficult. Lots of personal trainers could do that.

[00:24:13] But what the team also does is OK, we're designing a new feature. How do we make sure that we integrate something like self determination theory, the role of autonomy in decision making? You said you like custom workouts. That's a clear play for us.

[00:24:29] Some people want autonomy in their workouts. How do we bring that forward? We want people to have competency. So we grade the exercises on how easy. So you're a beginner and you want autonomy, but here's here's a more beginner exercise versus a more advanced exercise.

[00:24:45] So yeah, that's a long winded and ranging answer. But those are some of the spaces that we play in and try and try and bring performance to life. Well, I can tell, you know, as a career coach that you are that,

[00:24:57] you know, it's exciting for you to work on this stuff because it finally starts to answer some questions that people probably asked you a million times. Right. Like what are the best strengths for me? Right. Like what how many times a week should I train?

[00:25:11] How many reps should I do per set? Like all that stuff and we've always been like, well, you know, generally from what I've seen so far and some of the things I've read, I would suggest this, but now you're getting access to real data

[00:25:22] over a lot of different users, right? I could tell you're excited about it. Yeah, you really get to understand like again, like if you've never met someone, you're a personal trainer, what do you I think if you're a decent personal trainer,

[00:25:37] at least my bias is I'm going to go in an evidence-based approach of this is generally what the consensus says. You told me you want to build muscle. So I know Brad Stunner, Brad Cho and Febbs, done a study that says it needs to be, you know,

[00:25:50] at least four sets, maybe as many as 12 to 20 sets. And Stu Phillips just came out with a paper and a meta regression that says probably three times a week might be slightly better than two times or whatever it might be, you know, kind of there.

[00:26:02] And we start and we play it. And then we try and OK, well, how did that go? And we try and measure responses and we titrate and tweak it. And OK, you like to do this or we ask you a bit of your history.

[00:26:12] What have you done in the past that worked and try and build off there? We get to do all of those things. Plus look at this, we get to refine it a lot level at that first level.

[00:26:21] Rather than being very broad, we can be a little more specific, maybe not individual, you know, you specific right away. But we can know, OK, 40 to 50 year old males, we we recover a little little less fast than 20 to 30 year old males.

[00:26:34] Virtually all of the research studies in hypertrophy is in 20 to 30 year old males. You know, how do females either postmenopause or during herimeran pause or how does that change? We can ask questions of that. So it gets us like closer to the right answer earlier

[00:26:50] to build off evidence based fitness principles. And it's not like things trained dramatically, but maybe training frequency for 45th roasts should maybe be a little less. Does the data suggest that? And then we can then start as thing. And then what you do is learn from you.

[00:27:06] And the good thing about the data, it never forgets, right? It knows what you did every single time. You know, I just hit five, four and a half million, nearly five million pounds on total. I train very frequently for not very long.

[00:27:22] So I have like three workouts a day, all of which are less than 10 minutes. Exercise, snag a lot because my gym's behind in those barn doors. I go in, I'm working here. I got 10 minutes between a Zoom call.

[00:27:34] Bang, I wrap out a warm upset, couple of top sets or something like that. Move on with my day. But I've done that. Total knows every single one of those reps that I've done. It knows the velocity at 50 hertz, 50 times a second of every one

[00:27:46] of those reps that I've done. So it knows if I'm having a good day or a bad day. Now, the opportunity for us is then how do we bring that to products and moving forward? It's not that easy to do that. That's the opportunity for sure.

[00:27:59] How do you, and this is a selfish question, how do you do that? Do you customize, do you build a custom workout within the app and then you just go perform it on the machine? Is that how you do when you do those? I do various different things.

[00:28:11] So I just finished extreme accumulation, which is one of our newly released programs. It's a custom by tonal. So it's actually something that I and Joe, the coach designed together. And it's kind of a hybrid pattern. What we're seeing is

[00:28:27] like you talked about how you do customs and more advanced users like to do more customer free lift kind of type experiences. I wouldn't say that's across the board. It's probably, you know, it's more 50 50 in that population where it's more 80 20 in more beginner or intermediate populations

[00:28:42] in terms of the coach guided stuff. So there's a couple of different ways that I do those is number one, I'll just go in and then I'll start our guided workout and I just pause it.

[00:28:50] I do the first set and the warm up and things and I pause it. It'll stay paused. It will run in the background for multiple hours before kind of things. I go back in as long as my wife didn't go and work out and pick something else.

[00:29:01] I just hit restart and go again and do a quick body weight warm up to make sure I'm not, you know, doing anything crazy or hip recovery weights or warm up weights on the option to make sure I get a set in and go back and forth.

[00:29:13] I also do a bunch of custom workouts that I just sort of just myself right. They're either short minute, 10 minute exercise, snack kind of session. So I have like this is my 10 minute chest workout. This is my 10 minute back workout. This is my 10 minute arm workout.

[00:29:26] And I just have a whole bunch of those. We also have a bunch of quick fits that you can kind of kind of get through in 10 to 15 minutes and just go in there. And then other times I just go in and a free lift.

[00:29:36] I go in, I like pick the move I want to do. I do a warm up set and then my favorite way to favorite, I don't know, is the painful things, but I select burnout mode, which if you don't know, tonal is kind of like a drop set.

[00:29:51] It basically as soon as you stop or slow down dramatically, it reduces the weight automatically. So it's like a drop set with never putting the dumbbell down. I add eccentric mode. So we know, you know, eccentrics have a strong association with increases in strength potentially our data.

[00:30:07] We've done some data on that and we see, actually, I think it's around. Don't don't quote me on it. I quote myself on it, but I think people that use use dynamic make about 10 percent great against them. Those that don't, it's 10 to 15 percent kind of thing.

[00:30:23] So if you use dynamic weight mode, so we will change eccentric, those types of things you make big against, but I put eccentric mode on put burnout mode on. I also put chains mode on so you can do chains and things.

[00:30:34] So it overloads the eccentric and then it gives me extra sort of power development on the content and do one set to failure and just rep out as much as I can. I think it's like 90 seconds to two minutes if I'm hurt.

[00:30:46] And I feel I get a huge stimulus out of that one free lift workout. So I think that's part of the opportunity. It's just adaptable, right? You can make it work for you. And the fact that it's in your home means that.

[00:30:59] And honestly, changing weights kind of sucks. I have a squat rack behind me, too. Like I also still squat sometimes, not very often, but I do. I hate changing weights. So my pain in the butt loading up the biceps. I did it for 20 years.

[00:31:13] But now I'm like, oh, why can't it just automatically change for me? Or like getting in position without, like, you know, weight on, weight off type kind of stuff. I'm like, oh, this really sucks. But, you know, there's still some good things about it.

[00:31:25] It's not that it's bad. I'm not against resistance training or free weights, but certainly some advantages of doing that and being able to do these really efficient time efficient training. So one of the big things for me that I really like. I love it.

[00:31:37] And thanks for geeking out with me on that. Well, here's kind of a picture that I like to paint in my mind. You can let me know how realistic it is and what time frame. But one of the things, you know, in coaching and writing programs

[00:31:50] for anybody from, you know, an athlete who's probably going to have more coherence to the program than maybe somebody with, you know, a more complicated life. But we can have the best programs written, right? But practicality comes into play. You know, people travel, people are stressed out, people

[00:32:07] love whatever's going on in their life. They have to miss a session, you know, things like that happen. So, you know, when I look at where training can be and the personalization of it all is all these different data inputs.

[00:32:18] And I had Ian Mulane on it from QMI. He was talking from the health club perspective, all the data input. So wearable data, sleep data, HRV, like all the stuff that we can do to kind of make it more dynamic and adaptable to

[00:32:32] the trainee as time goes and more forgiving, I guess, is really what I'm trying to say is like, we can still keep people on track, even though something slipped off due to, I don't know, like right now my dog's bothering me, right? Like she needs to go out.

[00:32:44] So like, you know, that makes it. My kids started back at school and I normally work out first thing in the morning. So that disrupted my morning schedule. So how do I, and I presume, how do I adapt to those?

[00:32:56] Yeah, and machine learning and AI have to play a part in that. So we're, when I paint that picture, how far away do you think we are? What part is Tonal playing in something like that? I think, I think like many things, I think it's

[00:33:13] you will see there's already pieces of that built into our program and into others, into whether it's WOOP or kind of other people with these large data sets that I think maybe not obviously being driven by the data set. So I think it's already there.

[00:33:28] And I think you're going to see a trickle of that continuing over steadily over the next 6, 12, 18, 24 months type kind of timeframe to be where it's a full on flood of how we utilize either individual data sets like Tonal data or combinations of data sets around that.

[00:33:48] Like, you know, I borrow a lot from the elite sport world because that's that's where I'm from. And they tend to be more on like, you know, there's a lot of money and a lot of, you know, things at stake for them.

[00:33:59] So, you know, the idea of like what we call like an athlete management system in elite sports, that'd be like a smarter base for anyone that's sort of used to that or conduct or edge 10 or there's a couple of other of these bigger, bigger

[00:34:12] kind of things that basically they're data aggregation opportunities. And what most of them rely on is people like me and a team of like experts of strength and conditioning coach, nutrition, dietitians, you know, psychologists and sort of bringing these disparate data sets together in

[00:34:27] a storage place where we can kind of at least manually and visualize them. And I think what we're seeing and what we will see is that becoming more consumer focused and we're already doing that. I don't think we're that far away from it.

[00:34:39] The individual data sets and responses to that, I think is can happen relatively quickly. And so I think, you know, I'm not giving any product roadmap stuff here. This is not there, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone like Tonal could look at

[00:34:57] your first couple of reps of a training session and auto regulate the rest of that training session based on velocity range of motion type type kind of things. And so you could use it almost immediately. We're not there yet. And I'm not saying that's a product that would

[00:35:11] necessarily be seen that far away, but something like that or whoop, you know, it sees that you didn't sleep as well or it didn't sleep as well. How would that impact on? Should you take a recovery day?

[00:35:21] Is it things like what we do in elite sport a lot is we sort of triangulate three different data sets. So you've got this kind of how do you feel self reading? Because that's important. Yeah, I kind of things. There's this sort of performance data set like how

[00:35:35] are you performing? And then there's this like physiological marker. Did you jump higher? Is your HRV lower? Like something that's around that and generally they point two of the three in the same direction and ones like over here. Like often we don't feel that great, but we can

[00:35:49] perform and sometimes we feel great and we don't perform very well. And so I think that kind of framework is probably how it will evolve. Yeah, and I don't think we're that far away, at least from the individual data sets and utilising that to make more responsive training.

[00:36:05] You know, we kind of do that with something like suggested weights. If you're first set, if we know if I suggest normally you when you bench press, you bench press with 120 pounds for 10 reps. You know today if you came in, you said to

[00:36:18] 10 reps and I do 120 pounds and you only get eight out and then you reach fail. Spotter mode has to kick in or something like that. I will reduce the weight for the next set. It's a form of it's a relatively basic, it's

[00:36:29] a form of auto regulation training, sort of already kind of being being sort of brought into that. I think we'll build along that and others will build upon that. And then yet the other opportunity is the multiple data sets and how do you handle that?

[00:36:42] And I think we're not that far away, but it's going to be relatively slow maybe for a year or so and then the floodgates will open around how we do that. And a lot of it is less on the technical side

[00:36:55] of doing it, a lot more on the UX side of how do you explain that to consumers in their home in a way that makes sense is not overwhelmingly difficult, complex, like data's awesome. Like I love it. You sounds like you love it.

[00:37:10] I'm guessing much of this audience like more is almost better, but your average Joe at home doesn't like it can be too much. And so how do you design it in a way where it's like the right data contextualized to what's important and relevant to you?

[00:37:23] And that's that's actually where I think more of the challenge in that space kind of things is how do we surface it in a way that kind of makes sense for you? Well, we tend to get run away. We we run away as an industry with all

[00:37:36] the features and the possibilities and the performance. And then we tend to miss the mark sometimes on what is the actual consumer, right? What? Totally. And some of it, it probably some of it can be hidden like something like we we we dive into our

[00:37:52] database this is a while ago, but we were like what markers of consistency? We know consistency is important. Research from I don't know what is it? Paul Bedford maybe in the early 2000s on gym membership and how much you must go like, you know, what's associated with

[00:38:06] we know consistency is like a key factor to lifetime value and just staying engaged in fitness and whether you do that. So we kind of looked at ours and what are the like some of the drivers of or associate strong associations with higher levels of consistency and psych.

[00:38:21] We start to see, you know, generally the earlier you work out in the day, the more consistent you are. Not that everyone should work out in the morning doesn't work, but it does seem more less things come up in your day that can derail it is

[00:38:34] my interpretation of that data. We see that if you have a set time window to when you work out, then you're more likely to be more consistent and we start to see fluctuations in that is a lead indicator of you might becoming disengaged and we see

[00:38:51] some some associations between that and like ratings. So when you start to see this noise in how consistent your daily are, you're rating of programming or quality and enjoyment to decrease is a little bit. A lot of this is building up like the research

[00:39:03] evidence and we're just showing it in real world to some says, but it's like what were those pre markers? So like, OK, maybe you normally work out 8am and for the last X period of time, 14 days, it suddenly, you know, you used to have a

[00:39:17] standard deviation of plus or minus 10 minutes. And now it's plus or minus of 25 minutes or something like a bigger we just don't work on out. There's no decrease in frequency, but the time has gone up and your ratings have gone down. What can I as an intelligent device

[00:39:30] can I give you a push notification? Can I ask you, you know, some in the app or on the trainer is something going on? Can I make you think around what is it? Is it maybe my kids went back to school and it's really

[00:39:41] messing up my training and I need to get back in the habit. And maybe I fooled you an education article on how to build healthy habits or his, you know, atomic habits, but read this or something around that. Like it's like identify something in data,

[00:39:55] tell that to the user in a way that makes sense to them and provide a solution option alternative to try and course correct that kind of movement. I think that's that's really exciting because like if you just had gym swipes, you wouldn't know

[00:40:09] that or, you know, you start seeing decreases in in velocity of training. Maybe you're getting over trained, you know, you're moving slow. Maybe we should suggest a recovery period. Things like that. Yes. Do you have any initiatives or plans and obviously share what

[00:40:27] you can for more commercial use out of the home? Right. And now you and I talked about whenever we first discussed this podcast, which was Monsio about involving the coach and the trainer, maybe having the opportunity for a trainer to customize the programming for a

[00:40:43] specific client, have that one on one connection, but it's done remotely somehow. You know, so how are you looking at kind of maybe expanding into the broader industry overall? Yeah. I'll tackle the first part of it because it's related, but maybe separate first and then

[00:40:58] then the second part around more commercial say so. So number one with the personal training industry as a whole, like we see this like if you went on the official tonal community on Facebook or you go in any of the communities, you can think there are tons of

[00:41:10] personal trainers that are programming people for tunnel. Something that we never really set out to do and not something we really facilitated until fairly recently. You know, you'd have to people are intuitive and all in have great workarounds, right? They'd log in, share their app,

[00:41:29] details going in, create program, it would show up on their trainer because we didn't allow sharing. We did I think since we first had this conversation, we did release custom sharing so you can now share. There's a little send item, you can text message it to them and

[00:41:41] it will load up their work out automatically in their app. So there's a facilitation of ways that you can get a workout. You could, you know, I really love Eric's back workout. You just text it to me, add it to Facebook or whatever.

[00:41:55] And there's a link and I can download that and automatically do that. So that's sort of number one. But number two, like yeah, we saw that there's a ton of people training around that. And I think we spoke into some of the major accreditors of personal training

[00:42:08] and they're telling us something like 50 or so percent of currently people getting certified post pandemic don't ever plan to work in a big box gym full time or necessarily they plan to work in a hybrid or remote environment or part time in a big box and part time

[00:42:22] or a boutique fitness or whatever it might be. But the kind of there's this new world. I think that's where we should be playing and something that we will be actively seeking to do. And I think for us, it's a lot of understanding what tool

[00:42:34] what additional tools do we need to build? What would help facilitate that? If you're a, you know, there's maybe some theory. If you're really bad personal trainer, you should be scared by tonal because we can get them if you're just doing generic program and we can do

[00:42:47] all of that too. And we're, you know, overall a monthly lot less hourly wage than necessarily some percent of your really good at your job in the human connection side. Again, we're a great tool for you. We can help you be more efficient and more effective.

[00:43:02] No longer do you have to track volumes and loads or no longer do you have to do certain things on suggested weights. You can spend the time things that you care about building bespoke programs for that and then engaging and interacting with the client.

[00:43:13] That's one of the things that really bring value in my experience. So that's things. So we're a great tool for that. So there's something we will continue to sort of integrate more into and we are part of my remit is actually to actively work on that space,

[00:43:30] which I think is usually exciting because I think there's a real opportunity of how we do that and something that we're actively seeking. So part one and then part two is sort of commercial settings and it's a bit of a we've done some

[00:43:43] we I would say like truthfully we've kind of dabbled in it. We've got 50 or so hotels, hospitality kind of things that have tunnels and people love them members is a great benefit to type type doing it. You travel, you can book a hotel, you never miss your workout.

[00:44:00] A lot of people, a lot of our members, they want to train on total they didn't want to train on freeway to you and I still do some freeways, but a lot of them are like I want I want my stats tracked. I want all of the

[00:44:09] benefits of doing that. So that's a that's a benefit there. We've done a couple of like corporate wellness stuffs. We've got some some tunnels in Nike's gym in their headquarters in Oregon and a few other places, but not dramatically. I think what we're looking at

[00:44:25] is we're not going to be with our current device in, you know, Equinox Lifetime Fitness. I'm just I'm not dropping name. We're not having a conversation with either of us is not really built for that like really high usage facility. It's not not where at but boutique fitness

[00:44:42] personal training studios. I certainly that's a space that we'd like to explore as part of that kind of kind of continued work. So if anyone's listening that wants to kind of think about some sort of things, it's something that we're open and actively pursuing or looking at pursuing

[00:44:59] is how we do that as part of an overall broader strategy about engaging with the fitness industry as a whole. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine you can make a very space efficient boutique setting right that you could plop in like urban settings, you know, and

[00:45:14] with a small footprint, low overhead, you know, and create a unique experience around total not total left, you know, waiting, holding the weight of the entire experience, but something around it. But yeah, interesting. It's something. I think there's an opportunity is particularly in that small

[00:45:32] personal training boutique kind of space around, you know, whether it's only tonals or there's tonals plus other equipment. Like I often like I have a half rack and so I kind of put my half rack against the wall where my tunnel is and you kind

[00:45:46] of got this combination. It's like no additional space, but I've got all of this additional functionality. So somehow I can now add eccentric mode to my back squat. It's kind of an interesting kind of combination. So you can play around with with opportunities

[00:45:59] around how you might might do that. I think, you know, it's more in Europe than the US right now, but there's this popped up of these like solo gym type kind of things that came out of kind of pen. Not everyone wants

[00:46:10] to want to go back to it more of a maybe a gym environment or don't have the space for a home gym, but don't necessarily want crowding, waiting for equipment. So there's more pod type structure and on ways that we might fit into that kind of

[00:46:20] environment. And then yes, that hybrid approach, right? For the personal trainer, I don't want to take business from you, you know, going to them twice a week. There's still huge value. You should still do that. What I want to help you do is be more

[00:46:32] efficient for the other two times a week that you want and need them to train. And they're not currently or if they are, you don't know what they're doing. You can't track it. You like things that you've got no details. So you're not getting the outcomes that you

[00:46:43] want. And what happens after you know, the first four, six, eight, 12 weeks, the personal trainer client gives up because they're not seeing results because I haven't really done the work that you told him to. We can be a great tool for that other two

[00:46:53] times a week, whether you use this in your gym or don't, or you just program at home and then it becomes the best of both worlds. Yeah, fascinating. Kind of maybe, you know, just in a more broad conversation, like when you look at our market, our

[00:47:09] industry, what has you really excited right now? Troy, like from technology standpoint, from trends from, you know, and I like for me, I'm really excited about seeing more women engage in strength training. And I'm not just talking about like, you know, here's a couple of dumbbells.

[00:47:26] I'm talking about like squat racks, like full depth squats. I see it in my gym. I've seen the trends. I see the data. It's really cool. So you know, just speaking as Troy Taylor, what gets you fired up right now? Yeah, I agree. I think

[00:47:39] the the increasing in women doing strength training with moderate to heavy resistance rather than just, you know, two to four pound dumbbell. I love I agree. I work with Stacy Sims. She's a PhD out of New Zealand that is very much into female

[00:47:54] training. I think like her slogan is lift heavy shit. Excuse my language, but like I absolutely love that. And I think that's an awesome trend and I hope to see that continue and in our data we are seeing it continue in that extreme accumulation

[00:48:09] programs. She's one of the hardest programs to learn about produce. Like you look in our OTC in our community and the amount of like females are in there. I just crushed my biggest way ever. I think I think we're slowly broken down or continuing to break

[00:48:22] down the stigma around if I lift, I'll get bulky and like kind of things to the health benefits of lifting as well as the aesthetic benefits are likely to be getting bulky and kind of things. So I'm also really excited about that. I think the other one is

[00:48:35] is that active aging community. My parents are in their 70s. They live in Britain so we're not there avatar or yet. But I I see my my grand is 101 awesome to live that long. That's great. But I'd say up until her 90s she was pretty active and physical.

[00:48:52] She came to our winning when she was in her mid 90s. Like flu country kind of things. But the last five years man it's been pretty tough like the falls, the breaks, the sarcopenia, the reduction in muscle mass and that's on the extreme end. But like I

[00:49:06] see my parents now who are still physically active. I do not want them to lose and I think we are with that sort of the amount of research that's around that and hopefully whether it's tools like tonal or traditional gyms or person whoever. But like the

[00:49:19] role of that going for a walk for 30 minutes is not enough for you to live the you might live a long time but you're not going to have a high health span unless you resistance trend. And we're having data. Joe Sogurgit did a couple of

[00:49:34] meta analyses the last couple of years like people in their 60s 70s and 80s still make it or 60s and 70s definitely still making increases in muscle size hypertrophy and people in their 90s making increases in strength, which I'm excited about that because I

[00:49:50] think that like I'm getting older personally. But like the population in Western world is getting older. And I think that's the more that we can push on that and help that and facilitate that and show the benefits and educate around that and bring tools, whether it's

[00:50:05] tonal or something else that help facilitate that. I think that's got huge benefits because yeah, who wants to live to 100 if the last 20 years you can't get out of your bed or your room or your apartment and that strength right that strength and power ability to walk upstairs,

[00:50:21] get out of a chair. So yeah, that's probably where I have the biggest passion, which is funny because if you'd ask me like four years ago like, you know, Olympic sports right? Probably probably you know, if you'd ask me I'm like what's your next job

[00:50:34] going to be able to like probably NBA that's kind of like the path to like kind of things and like and now I'm genuinely more excited about some 70 year olds getting 50 percent stronger than I would be probably winning another helping an athlete win an Olympic medal

[00:50:48] or an NBA championship. But I think, yeah, I don't know, maybe that's just each speaking, but just changes of priorities. I think there's this huge opportunity there and as an industry as fitness professionals like that that the wealthiest population so they can pay for fitness professional services,

[00:51:03] whether it's in person or something like that at all. And then desperate need of it. And I think there was a growing understanding of its importance, which is which is exciting. And we need to we need to capitalize on that. Yeah. Well, I think there's

[00:51:17] a lot of people who are in the active aging or sort of that demographic who would be cheering for what you just said because they agree. And it's I think it's I think it's actually fairly calming career arc for people like yourself within the coaching industry who start

[00:51:30] out at high performance and they think pro athletes, it's all I want to work with the rest of them get into it and you're like, you know what? I can do more good over here. Right. And that's more honestly, that was the opportunity of tunnel is

[00:51:43] really like incredible use of hardware. Love the kit and kind of things. But like I've worked with, you know, these incredible athletes. I've had teams of like 30 or 40 performance specialists working with, you know, 100 athletes or something like this incredible ratio that you just don't get

[00:51:58] it's like, it's cool. But the ability of tone to impact on hundreds of thousands and millions of people. They are like, OK, that's that's kind of really cool. Maybe from an egotistical standpoint, but it's apply some of this knowledge and these these opportunities like

[00:52:11] they need to be contextualized but apply them to a much broader population. Awesome. The last question for you, Troy, is like, you know, at Spirit of collaboration, like what are you looking for right now? How can we help you as a community? Yeah, I think I think we're

[00:52:27] probably touched on it in that sort of personal training and fitness industry stuff. It's not it's not been like truthfully, it's not been a big part of tunnels business plan or even sort of sort of philosophy. We sort of we went to ACSM and NSCA maybe last

[00:52:43] year, year before, you know, on some sponsors type stuff. We did commission some research. We were back at NCS ACSM this year presenting some of our research and results of that research. But really it's now about how do we integrate with personal trainers from

[00:52:59] I think for your industry specifically and how do we integrate with fitness industry? And and if anyone's interested in doing that, I think that's that's pilots and opportunities that we're looking for, whether it's more in the boutique personal fitness studio type kind of install kind of

[00:53:13] opportunities around that. Or it's more more on top of how would we engage with, you know, some of the larger organizations if certifiers or credentials. I think that those are the certainly I think as a community, I think that's we're open to that conversation would like to have

[00:53:29] that conversation with people that are actively listening. Obviously, it needs to make sense to both sides to do that, but that's a conversation we'd actively look at as well as some of maybe some of maybe those that are on the more I would say older participation sports

[00:53:43] outside golf tennis, you know, there's not that many people playing football in their 20s, 30s, 40s, if they're not in a college or pro career and we've got a lot of college and progress. But in those sports, if you if you work in with a with a sport

[00:53:57] that's sort of in that more yeah, active, I wouldn't say aging community, but like adult population sports, mass participation, that's also a space that's kind of interesting to us. Yeah, that's fair. Awesome. Well, hey, if you want to get ahold of year, if there's anywhere

[00:54:12] that you'd like to go them online, have them go online. I know you're pretty you're pretty solid on LinkedIn. Where would you like them to go? Yeah, the two like, you know, more LinkedIn's probably the easiest from a more professional kind of things. And it's just Troy

[00:54:27] Taylor. I don't know what their numbers are, but you can find me and you'll see my picture. I do have an Instagram account that I only started in December. I posted, I think every day between December and March and then didn't post again since, but I will react

[00:54:38] to me. And that's strength science Troy, strength science Troy. And that's very much like evidence based fitness research type stuff, lots of tonal examples, but other other training too, but just sort of bringing bring science there. But yeah, I it is in my to do list to

[00:54:54] restart that fairly soon on a less frequently basis. So I don't burn myself out much like someone starting a new fitness routine in January. I was the guy in the gym that hit it every day for 30 days and then you didn't see me after February one

[00:55:07] again as a blood burn out. I will have a more steady approach to my Instagram coming in the next month or two. Yeah, yeah, I always talk about content creation as it's like a good aerobic training. It's got to be repeatable and sustainable.

[00:55:20] And I had 10 years of ideas and thoughts that I'd never shared because I wasn't really on social media was like, right, let's go. I was like, oh, that's like four months worth of content. Now now what? I'm like, oh, it's kind of a lot of work to do

[00:55:34] this. And it's like maybe just push my workouts. I was like no one wants to see that. So I'll probably have to come up with some other ideas. But I've got a backlog now of maybe once or twice a week post that will be more sustainable.

[00:55:47] Cool, cool. Well, Troy, thank you so much for joining me. I like the initiatives you're doing. Obviously you're a lot of fun to talk to you have a lot of great insights on the industry and yeah, I'd love to have you back on them.

[00:55:56] We can maybe get an update in a year or so. Love to do that. Thank you so much for having me on. Appreciate it, Eric. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Troy Taylor. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This is your host Eric Malzone and I hope you enjoyed this

[00:56:09] episode of Future of Menace. If you did, I'm going to ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show where we listen to it. iTunes, Spotify,

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[00:56:50] there or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone and this is the future of fitness. Have a great day.