Troy Taylor - Tonal 2 & Tonal Training Lab

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[00:02:08] All right.

[00:02:09] We are live.

[00:02:10] Troy Taylor, welcome back to the Future of Fitness, my friend.

[00:02:12] Thank you for having me back.

[00:02:14] I'm surprised you wanted me a second time, but I certainly appreciate it.

[00:02:17] Well, as you know, and a lot of my friends know, a lot of my colleagues know, I'm just a big fan of Tonal.

[00:02:22] You know, I've had one for years now.

[00:02:24] I use it every week, multiple times a week.

[00:02:28] I've just got into ski season to time myself here, and my legs feel great.

[00:02:34] You know, I don't miss necessarily heavy barbell work like I used to do.

[00:02:38] My body feels really good.

[00:02:40] Things don't hurt as much, and I just feel strong.

[00:02:42] So, you know, just for that matter alone, I was very excited to get you back on and talk about some really cool updates.

[00:02:49] I mean, first of all, people are asking quite often, like, how is Tonal doing, right?

[00:02:52] You know, Peloton kind of takes the news as far as, like, the connected fitness attention, right, from everything that they've done.

[00:03:02] But obviously, they're a different beast than what you guys are.

[00:03:05] And then you also have Tonal 2 coming out.

[00:03:07] Super exciting.

[00:03:08] You have the training lab, which is, you know, I guess you'll explain, but a brick-and-mortar concept potentially and what that's going.

[00:03:15] So, there's plenty to do.

[00:03:16] And some people, did you get you reintroduced, Troy?

[00:03:19] You are the Vice President of Performance Innovation at Tonal.

[00:03:21] Is that still the right?

[00:03:23] Yeah.

[00:03:23] Unless it updates between now and then.

[00:03:25] I hope that's my job title still.

[00:03:27] So, yes, that's what I'm doing.

[00:03:29] Awesome, man.

[00:03:30] Well, thanks again for joining me.

[00:03:31] It's really fun talking to you.

[00:03:33] So, maybe we could do this.

[00:03:34] You know, give us – I think it's been a couple years, Troy, since you've been on the podcast.

[00:03:38] Maybe give us an update on all things Tonal, you know, how the company's doing.

[00:03:42] I know you have some new leadership.

[00:03:44] And then we'll get into, like, the technical upgrades of Tonal 2 and what you guys are doing at the lab.

[00:03:49] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:51] Yeah, it's – we're actually doing great as a company.

[00:03:55] You know, I think it's a surprise to know.

[00:03:57] Like, you know, 2020, 2021 were crazy years for any home-connected fitness company.

[00:04:03] And Tonal, you know, had rapid growth through there.

[00:04:06] 22, 23 were, you know, a little trickier as we navigated kind of the changing landscape of, you know,

[00:04:12] it not being a pandemic of access to venture capital and growth orientation was a little harder.

[00:04:16] So, there was some tricky, tricky couple of years of right-sizing the business.

[00:04:20] But essentially made through them probably – it seems in the rearview mirror, but it takes a while to work through some of these.

[00:04:26] But 12 months or so ago has been really sort of a stabilized business and in a great place, you know, have, you know, a large and growing membership.

[00:04:35] We increase our members, subscribers.

[00:04:38] Every single month the company has been – existed.

[00:04:40] More people have joined every single month.

[00:04:42] I think it's well over $100 million in annual recurring revenue.

[00:04:46] You now churn, you know, sub or right around 1%, very, very low churn.

[00:04:51] And I think so.

[00:04:52] Super, super good there.

[00:04:53] We had an incredible Black Friday, which was really good from a sales perspective.

[00:04:58] And so, yeah, everything's really, really good.

[00:05:00] Obviously, you know, we want to grow and we'll continue to grow and bring our product that thankfully you enjoy and I enjoy to even more people and more scenarios.

[00:05:08] But certainly exciting times for the company, particularly with Tonal 2 launching and sort of the new features that that brings to our subscriber base and new customers.

[00:05:19] So that's really exciting.

[00:05:21] And then things like, yeah, the Tonal Training Lab, which is sort of a bit of an experimentation for us of trying Tonal in a boutique fitness space.

[00:05:29] Really, you know, capitalizing on the launch of the Tonal 2, but sort of expanding this essentially boutique fitness training space for six or so weeks just as an initial test.

[00:05:41] We won't be staying open any longer than that for this particular there.

[00:05:44] But can we create a really great in-person experience using our own Tonal coaches initially?

[00:05:51] And can we bring that kind of environment as a great showcase for our product, for a retail store, and maybe for potential, you know, future opportunities for the business, but just a bit of test and learn.

[00:06:02] So, yeah, exciting times.

[00:06:03] Yeah, that's great, man.

[00:06:05] And, you know, I think with the rise of longevity, obviously strength training has boomed over the recent years.

[00:06:13] You know, it just seems like a really good place for Tonal.

[00:06:15] And the technology is great.

[00:06:18] And, you know, people I know who have been training for a very long time, like yourself, right?

[00:06:24] You know, you've been in the sports world for a very long time.

[00:06:27] You've done a lot of training.

[00:06:28] I've spent a lot of time with barbells and weights in my lifetime.

[00:06:32] And I've just always been...

[00:06:34] I guess I think a lot of people are reluctant to like, well, there's not...

[00:06:37] A machine can't do what I can do with all of my barbell and gym equipment, right?

[00:06:42] But I've been very impressed over the years of just how easy it is.

[00:06:46] And you and I talked about last time, like you don't have to move plates.

[00:06:48] You don't have to change weights, right?

[00:06:50] It remembers everything.

[00:06:52] It's very smooth, like in the way that it does it.

[00:06:55] It leads you through programs.

[00:06:56] I don't have to think.

[00:06:57] There's just a lot of things to it that just make it kind of a better mousetrap when it comes to strength training.

[00:07:02] And I think the one thing that some people that this matters to very, very few people is like, well, it has a 200-pound weight limit, right?

[00:07:09] That's it.

[00:07:10] And I...

[00:07:10] Used to have a 200-pound weight limit.

[00:07:12] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:12] Great.

[00:07:12] We can talk about it.

[00:07:13] Now it's one or two.

[00:07:13] Yeah.

[00:07:14] So let's talk about the product side of things.

[00:07:17] What's the major upgrades in Tunnel 2?

[00:07:19] Where did you guys see the opportunities?

[00:07:20] Maybe start with this.

[00:07:21] Like what was some of the biggest feedback you've gotten from your clients and consumers over the past few years that led to this upgrade?

[00:07:28] Yeah.

[00:07:29] And so like the feedback it's like on Tunnel, like it's almost universally like incredible.

[00:07:36] We're super fortunate.

[00:07:37] I talked around our churn number, which is the metric that the business obviously cares about because that's important there.

[00:07:43] But like the MPS, you know, how our customers rate, it's still in the 70s, multiple years after the product launched.

[00:07:51] Average users, I think, are using it more than two times a week, three years after purchase.

[00:07:56] So it's sticky and people continue to use it.

[00:07:59] And so the feedback has been, you know, is always positive across the board.

[00:08:04] Where I think some of the ways we wanted to leverage Tunnel 2 and kind of, you know, even sort of just bridge more opportunity was number one.

[00:08:12] And yeah, 200 pounds was a lot.

[00:08:14] And it feels, we did that research study a couple of years ago.

[00:08:16] It feels about 25% heavier because of the way that inertia and momentum works on free weight.

[00:08:21] So it felt more like 250.

[00:08:23] But there were, you know, not at large, but like about 15 to 20% of our membership, I think, you know, have maxed out Tunnel.

[00:08:30] They've done deadlifts at 200 pounds or something.

[00:08:32] It's not a huge portion, but it is a portion.

[00:08:34] And so we wanted to try and give them an opportunity.

[00:08:38] Okay, well, how can we continue to service that type of customer that is trying to like to do heavy leg work?

[00:08:43] And it is mostly the big compound leg works.

[00:08:46] You know, there's not many people that are 200 pound benching on Tunnel.

[00:08:49] It feels, I'm not, I can, you know, I'm not a big bencher, but I can bench 250, 260 maybe in free weight.

[00:08:55] I cannot bench 200 on Tunnel.

[00:08:57] It just is too heavy.

[00:08:59] But yeah, particularly for those lower pound pounds lifts.

[00:09:03] So we bumped the weight up.

[00:09:05] So in order to do that, we had to, you know, increase the safety factors and the machines and like, you know, the parts components to make sure beef up a lot of the internal electronics.

[00:09:14] So it now goes to 250 pounds, which is still you times that by about 1.25, that 25%.

[00:09:20] You're not far off for a little over 300 pounds of equivalent deadlifting or free weight of mass.

[00:09:25] And so that's taking a large portion.

[00:09:27] Maybe if you're a powerlifter, you're doing more than that.

[00:09:30] But most people doing reps of 8 and 10 are not kind of going to max that out.

[00:09:34] So really excited to bring that sort of opportunity to the consumers.

[00:09:39] That was number one.

[00:09:40] Number two is we heard people love Tunnel, love working out on Tunnel.

[00:09:45] We have a whole host of different sort of workouts and programs from strength training to mobility to yoga and Pilates to cardio.

[00:09:54] But all of the other modalities are off Tunnel, right?

[00:09:57] It's body weight only.

[00:09:59] And we saw from our members that they really wanted an option for blending cardio and strength.

[00:10:04] They wanted a way, hey, could we work on our cardiovascular fitness while working on Tunnel?

[00:10:09] So we developed this mode called Aero.

[00:10:14] It's inspired, I guess, by the feeling of a row or something like that, where you pull harder, it pulls against.

[00:10:19] You can set the gears or the sort of resistance factor so it can kind of be a bit harder, a bit easier.

[00:10:25] But created this Aero mode, which is really just an opportunity.

[00:10:29] You can do everything from zone two to, you know, VO2 max or interval efforts on it.

[00:10:35] It, you know, imagine there are some movement patterns like a ski erg where you could do something similar, but you can not limit it to one movement pattern.

[00:10:43] You can do multiple movement patterns.

[00:10:45] So you can get this cardiovascular kind of component, but you can also get this movement quality and movement variation.

[00:10:51] It might be more akin to strength training.

[00:10:54] So there's a move in there, the Aero mini pool, which is like a ski erg.

[00:10:58] There's an Aero pool, which is more like a med ball slam, a real kind of powerful.

[00:11:03] We think CrossFitters are going to love that.

[00:11:05] There's the ability to do lunging on it so you can kind of work on balance and stability.

[00:11:10] Something like a Russian twist almost as you're standing.

[00:11:13] So you've got this core cardio component and then taking rotational chop.

[00:11:18] And so it's this sort of like ability to do this, you know, very dynamic movements and multiple movements while it's still being predominantly cardiovascular.

[00:11:27] If you jack it up to 10 and do the drag factor really high, like you would on an erg or a thing, there's a strength and muscular component to it.

[00:11:33] But it's primarily heart, lungs, cardiovascular system.

[00:11:37] We wanted to be able to kind of, you know, really bring that on tonal cardio experience to our members.

[00:11:43] So that's two.

[00:11:44] There's two more to talk around.

[00:11:46] Um, we wanted to integrate a front facing camera.

[00:11:52] Um, and so there's, there's always been a camera on tonal.

[00:11:55] It was only used on our, on our, on our smart view form feedback.

[00:11:59] You'd never see the images it's used.

[00:12:01] Um, you know, particularly on, on, uh, tricep extensions and a couple of others to inform our algorithms.

[00:12:07] Um, but it, it, it, it wasn't as good as we wanted it to be.

[00:12:11] And so we've installed a front facing camera.

[00:12:14] So now every time you lift, you'll get a picture and picture pop up front facing.

[00:12:18] You can see yourself, you can see your movement.

[00:12:20] There's pose modeling, you know, going on top of that.

[00:12:23] So we can measure movement patterns.

[00:12:25] Hey, we noticed you're swaying to the left or right in that lunge.

[00:12:28] We can review that on the phone app.

[00:12:31] It will go real time.

[00:12:33] As soon as you finish your workout, be on the app.

[00:12:34] So you can see every single exercise of every single set of every single rep that you've done.

[00:12:39] Um, and the coaching cues that are involved in that.

[00:12:42] So, um, super excited.

[00:12:44] We also can use that for selfies and, you know, to promotion, promotional kind of things at the end of the workout.

[00:12:49] You can see how sweater you are.

[00:12:50] Um, and then finally, I say finally, there's probably some other things I'm forgetting, but the fourth one was, uh, drop sets.

[00:13:00] So this is back compatible to tonal one as well.

[00:13:03] This is not exclusively to tonal two, but, um, drop sets are up, you know, well-known training technique that we've probably all done in the gym.

[00:13:11] Probably most commonly run the rack, right?

[00:13:13] With some dumbbells and bicep curls.

[00:13:14] So I start with the thirties.

[00:13:15] I work till I'm relatively tired, pick up the 25s and do the same, then pick up the twenties.

[00:13:20] And so we wanted to bring that kind of training concept into the 21st century.

[00:13:24] Um, and so we developed this mode that does drop sets.

[00:13:28] And there's three improvements that we tried to work on.

[00:13:30] So number one was, um, you don't really know when to stop on drop sets.

[00:13:36] You can go to failure.

[00:13:36] If you go to momentary failure, you know, you've got things, but then kind of sets end real fast because real fatigue and go to failure.

[00:13:42] And then you're guessing RARs on the S reps in reserve.

[00:13:45] So what we did is installed an algorithm that will give you basically a one to three RAR and drop the weight.

[00:13:51] And so every time you get to one to three RAR, it will drop the weight.

[00:13:55] Number two, well, I can only drop by what dumbbells they have available.

[00:13:59] Twenties to fifteens to tens.

[00:14:01] Sometimes that's appropriate.

[00:14:02] Sometimes it's not.

[00:14:03] The reason that that's not ideal is because sometimes it's too big a drop, right?

[00:14:06] And I can, and the first five reps are still easy again.

[00:14:09] Then we drop it exactly the right amount to keep you at that very close proximity to failure.

[00:14:15] So we reduce it by a very little amount, um, by that proximity to failure.

[00:14:20] And a number three is we automate that process.

[00:14:22] So it's a one continuous set.

[00:14:24] It's not a put down a dumbbell, put up a dumbbell.

[00:14:26] And so it's this like super smooth.

[00:14:29] Essentially you start with something like an eight rep max.

[00:14:32] You get to rep six, two reps from failure, and then you stay one to two reps to failure for 20 plus reps.

[00:14:39] Um, hugely, we think hypertrophically stimulus, um, very time efficient training.

[00:14:45] Um, we've got a research study still underway.

[00:14:47] Um, but we've got preliminary results, um, that says we get similar outcomes in muscle growth in about 38% of the training time.

[00:14:55] So 38% of the training time for very similar outcomes in muscle mass gain.

[00:14:59] So those are, those are four of the features that we kind of really kind of leaned into with Tonal 2.

[00:15:05] And some nice design touches, chrome buttons, little finishes, nice, those touches that just bring you a fresh product.

[00:15:11] I think that's still product.

[00:15:12] Tonal 1 still looks great, but Tonal 2 looks even better.

[00:15:16] Yeah, that was, that was my next question, Joy.

[00:15:17] It's like, how has the form factor changed?

[00:15:19] Is it kind of pretty much the same or have you changed any major functionality of it?

[00:15:24] Nothing that you would look and go, that's a completely different device.

[00:15:27] Um, it more like an iPhone type.

[00:15:29] Oh yeah, I can see some subtle touches and subtle things.

[00:15:32] We, we heard from our members that they love the way that the product looks when it's stored.

[00:15:36] It like, it looks like this horizontal TV that's kind of mounted on the things.

[00:15:40] Um, and, and so they, we didn't hear that we wanted that people to change that and kind of thing.

[00:15:45] So we made some nice design aesthetic upgrades.

[00:15:47] The ropes got a slightly different color to it and it's also upgraded in strength.

[00:15:51] Um, we put on some Chrome buttons, you can see this front facing camera, um, now.

[00:15:57] And so there, there was these more like a slightly different matte finish on some touches,

[00:16:00] um, but more subtle, um, just to, to bring it, bring it up today, but nothing, nothing huge.

[00:16:06] Yeah.

[00:16:07] Interesting.

[00:16:07] Yeah.

[00:16:08] I mean, I would imagine if you're doing stuff like ski or type work, um, that it must things

[00:16:13] because you know, everything's, everything always feels sturdy to me, but I imagine if I'm

[00:16:16] doing dynamic work, you tend to hear a little bit of rattling, right?

[00:16:19] A little bit because it's just not built for that.

[00:16:22] But is that something like if you're, the components on all of the arms and stuff have

[00:16:26] been beefed up, um, they're even stronger, more kind of things.

[00:16:30] It's our most reliable tonal ever.

[00:16:32] Um, in order to meet the safety requirements, I think it's 3.7 times the safety factor.

[00:16:39] So you can actually pull like 1500 pounds on this thing or something crazy like that.

[00:16:43] Not that you should, um, but that's what it's been tested up to.

[00:16:46] Um, and so, yeah.

[00:16:48] And so all of those components around the arms and the latches, the plunger has been upgraded.

[00:16:53] Um, there is, is a component that was, was taking a lot of a beating, uh, in some users.

[00:16:58] So all of that stuff's been, been internally upgraded.

[00:17:00] So yes, they super smooth from that skier kind of motion.

[00:17:03] So you get all that benefit of tonal, but just this kind of really, really steady.

[00:17:06] It almost sounds like a, uh, it's an electronic motor, but it sounds like a, uh, a rower when

[00:17:13] you hear that, like kind of sound has that kind of moment to it.

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:18] Very cool.

[00:17:19] Um, who is using total?

[00:17:22] Like what, who, who was the kind of typical consumer or anything that, um, I mean, I would

[00:17:26] imagine people like me are kind of like the, the core, right?

[00:17:30] Like mid forties, maybe getting into fifties, have some athletic and strength background,

[00:17:35] but is there, are we getting into, I guess the big question is that we're getting into

[00:17:38] the people who don't typically strength train.

[00:17:40] Um, or is this like people kind of graduating over to this as far as a technological and

[00:17:45] convenient solution?

[00:17:46] Yeah.

[00:17:47] And so I'm, I'm, I'll give you the short and the longer answer.

[00:17:50] Okay.

[00:17:51] The short answer is everyone.

[00:17:52] There's like 18 to 80 plus year olds on the platform from people that are first time

[00:17:57] strength trainers to, to, to, you know, people that like you and I, that are

[00:18:00] been training for most of our lives.

[00:18:02] There's competitive bodybuilders and, you know, probably not strong men, but certainly

[00:18:05] competitive bodybuilders and others.

[00:18:07] So there's a little bit of everything target demographic.

[00:18:10] Your majority of people are 35 to 55 year olds.

[00:18:13] Um, typically like intermediate to advanced strength training backgrounds.

[00:18:18] Um, so have some experience generally looking for time convenient training.

[00:18:23] Um, take the cognitive load out of training.

[00:18:25] I don't want to have to think about stuff too much, um, or at least partner with tonal

[00:18:30] in terms of creation and stuff or like that.

[00:18:31] Um, they tend to be, um, you know, own their own homes, um, and, and have generally have

[00:18:38] kids or at least time press busy jobs or time kissing the program things.

[00:18:41] That's like target customer.

[00:18:42] Number one, number one.

[00:18:43] I think over the period that ton has been around now, the six or so years, we've certainly

[00:18:48] seen a lot more beginners join the platform.

[00:18:51] People that were intimidated to go to the gym.

[00:18:53] I've always wanted to get fit, but I've never known how, and I don't really feel at home

[00:18:58] in a gym setting and lots and lots more of those.

[00:19:01] I say that sort of target, like target two that has come onto the platform, not something

[00:19:06] that we've necessarily intentionally fostered.

[00:19:08] We're great to have them and certainly try to support them and continue to do so.

[00:19:12] But certainly people is like, Oh, now there's a solution that gets me these strength training

[00:19:16] goals, gets me the coaching and competency that I'd like, but I don't have to go, um,

[00:19:21] you know, to buy, you know, to a, to a gym that I don't feel where I fit in.

[00:19:25] Um, and then, uh, the other card customer is the active agent customer, certainly seeing

[00:19:30] more people, more and more people.

[00:19:32] Um, I almost plus myself for while I'm in target demographic, but I'm more focused on

[00:19:37] longevity and the aspects of health span, particularly 55 plus year olds.

[00:19:42] Um, and kind of really focusing on, okay, I, I am, uh, you know, I do own my own home.

[00:19:47] I, I, you know, but still have a busy job or I may be retired, um, and I have time, but

[00:19:52] I want to be able to get these kinds of strength benefits and, and we certainly see that as a

[00:19:56] growing demographic.

[00:19:57] Yeah.

[00:19:58] It's, it's such an, and I feel like a commercial for you guys, but it's just such an efficient

[00:20:01] use of time, you know, especially from the work from home crowd or people who have time

[00:20:06] in the morning.

[00:20:06] Like I love going to gym.

[00:20:09] I wish I had, no, that's a wish I made more time to go to the gym every day.

[00:20:15] Right.

[00:20:17] Uh, but this is such a good two days a week, three days a week to get in, especially when,

[00:20:21] you know, active, uh, lifestyles.

[00:20:23] It's like, I can, if I have an hour block, I can get an effective warmup, effective strength

[00:20:27] training and a cool down walking upstairs, like to my next room.

[00:20:32] And that, that's, that's super incredible.

[00:20:34] And I think that's, um, you know, what, what a lot of people are paying for.

[00:20:37] And, you know, if I'm honest with the joy, like, uh, it protects me from myself.

[00:20:41] Um, you know, if I'm, if I'm, you know, with a barbell or something like that, you know,

[00:20:45] I may just be feeling a little good, but I'll, maybe I'll push a little bit harder.

[00:20:49] I'm like, you know, or I can only go up 10 pounds or five pounds where maybe I should

[00:20:54] just be going up to, you know, like that's, I think that's something we're tonal to.

[00:20:57] It's like, kind of keeps me in a sweet zone where I get the minimum effective dose without

[00:21:02] putting myself, uh, you know, at risk of, of injuring myself because I'm an idiot.

[00:21:06] Right.

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:06] That's a nice feature.

[00:21:08] Yeah, totally.

[00:21:08] I posted something on Instagram the other day.

[00:21:10] We did our year end review and kind of thing.

[00:21:12] And I think I did posted 466 workouts in 11 months at that period of things.

[00:21:18] And I'll be honest, I probably did another hundred or 200 that were in like R and D mode

[00:21:22] that no one gets to see because they're not on my stats.

[00:21:24] I work out for three minutes, like three minutes at a time.

[00:21:28] I'll go in, I do a set, like not if I'm doing a heavy lower body.

[00:21:32] Yes.

[00:21:32] That takes a little longer to warm up and kind of things, but if it's curls, I'll go in

[00:21:36] there and set on the curls and, or whatever it might be.

[00:21:38] But I'll do that like four or five times a day.

[00:21:40] Sometimes I got three minutes after a podcast between me and my next zoom call and I'll

[00:21:44] come in and do this exercise snack.

[00:21:46] Um, that's personally like I'm wearing the logo, like my, but I love that convenience

[00:21:51] factor of being able to get in these micro workouts.

[00:21:55] That's how I could, I would make time an hour in the day, but yeah, I have a busy job.

[00:22:01] I have a couple of kids.

[00:22:02] I got like, you know, I got other stuff to do.

[00:22:04] And so I'm, it's great for me that I can get my training in while not having to dedicate

[00:22:09] an hour, hour and a half to go to the gym, uh, in order to do that.

[00:22:13] And then, yeah, the, the concepts of like progressive overload that are built in, but like moderate

[00:22:18] progressive overload, not like Troy.

[00:22:20] Right.

[00:22:21] Oh, 10 years ago, I used to deadlift 450 pounds.

[00:22:25] Let's load up the bar and I might get it up one time and then I'll be done for the next

[00:22:29] like three weeks.

[00:22:31] Uh, yeah.

[00:22:31] Like, okay.

[00:22:33] Well, tonal, I remembered I only did, you know, 180.

[00:22:35] So I probably should do 181 or 182 might be a better idea, Troy.

[00:22:40] Yeah.

[00:22:40] Yeah.

[00:22:40] My total remembers.

[00:22:41] I'm not 35 anymore.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:43] Uh, that's funny.

[00:22:44] I don't, I don't remember that, but my total will, um, I've asked me for a friend here.

[00:22:49] Are you guys having like a total one swap program where people want to upgrade a total

[00:22:53] two?

[00:22:55] We, as we record this poker, I'm not 100% sure.

[00:22:59] Um, in, in terms of, of what that upgrade cycle looks like, we certainly value all of

[00:23:04] our members and in terms of that, but I couldn't tell you as we're recording this podcast,

[00:23:08] you know, a little in advance of the launch, exactly what those plans would be.

[00:23:11] But, uh, certainly, uh, tonal will communicate those to you through your email kind of things

[00:23:16] of any object options that are available.

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:19] Awesome.

[00:23:19] And, uh, just so people understand too, like we're, uh, recording this about three weeks

[00:23:24] before the embargo of the announcement.

[00:23:26] So this will be out just afterwards.

[00:23:28] So just to clarify, um, okay.

[00:23:31] So let's, I want to talk about the studio.

[00:23:33] I, I've always thought, you know, whenever I tease my wife with like, Hey, maybe I'll open

[00:23:37] another gym.

[00:23:38] She's like, no, no.

[00:23:40] Yeah, no.

[00:23:41] You want a divorce?

[00:23:42] Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:43] Uh, but I always think like, you know, I would have a concept either including tonal units

[00:23:50] or maybe built completely around tonal units would be a very effective model, right?

[00:23:57] In a commercial setting, because obviously space, right?

[00:24:00] Footprint, um, safety programming.

[00:24:03] Uh, you can still be a coach.

[00:24:05] You can still teach nutrition.

[00:24:06] You can still teach lifestyle, but you can work a lot of people through, uh, and focus

[00:24:11] on things that people like to do when they're coaching, you know, and you could still have

[00:24:14] power.

[00:24:14] Like I could have racks in the studio as well.

[00:24:17] If I want to work specifically on power movements, right.

[00:24:20] Um, that necessitate that type of equipment.

[00:24:23] So I think it's a really interesting play.

[00:24:24] I haven't seen anybody do it yet.

[00:24:26] I'm sure they're out there.

[00:24:27] Um, but you guys are working on it.

[00:24:30] So tell me about it.

[00:24:31] What is, what is the training lab?

[00:24:32] Yeah, the tonal training lab, you and I have had similar ideas over the last couple of years

[00:24:37] and we've just been trying to like figure out when would be the right time.

[00:24:39] What's the right opportunity to test this out.

[00:24:42] And we really decided that the launch of tonal two and capitalizing on that would be a great

[00:24:46] time to test this, test this model.

[00:24:49] It really is a chance for our members to celebrate the new year and work out together.

[00:24:53] Um, you know, look at the opportunity.

[00:24:54] Yes, there's a press and PR component for tonal two.

[00:24:56] So get three people through there, but also so, um, you know, so we can expose new people

[00:25:01] to the brand that maybe haven't, you know, tried tonal and would be more likely to do

[00:25:05] it in a group fitness class or the customers that want to do a bit of hybrid training, right.

[00:25:09] Um, I want to work at home when I have the chance, but I love that in the person community

[00:25:13] and I miss that.

[00:25:14] So tonal training lab opens, uh, January the 13th is a member only week, uh, till January

[00:25:20] the 19th.

[00:25:21] And then the 20th opens to the public.

[00:25:23] It's a six week, uh, pop-up in Soho, New York.

[00:25:26] Um, it will be led by on tonal camera coaches.

[00:25:30] Um, and so they will be your, your, your coaches for the period.

[00:25:34] There's eight tonals in the space.

[00:25:36] Um, so it's, I would say like a hybrid between like small group training.

[00:25:39] I was listening to your podcast episode with Vince, uh, I think fairly recently.

[00:25:42] Um, and, and sort of more like full boutique fitness studio.

[00:25:46] So it's eight tonals.

[00:25:47] So we're going for an intimate kind of, kind of a look.

[00:25:50] So you can kind of get a feel on there.

[00:25:51] Um, plus a coaches tonal and a retail store aspect to it.

[00:25:55] But it's a really an opportunity to test that model to show off the, the tonal twos, the

[00:26:00] aero features, the drop set features of tonal two.

[00:26:02] And also to see, you know, is this a great experience?

[00:26:05] Like we, we in our office in San Francisco, I've been running these workouts for years.

[00:26:10] Like we have six tonals in a room and execs and come in and I always love it.

[00:26:14] Like I like working at home.

[00:26:16] That's my, my jam.

[00:26:17] I don't need to go to the gym anymore, but there are people that want to.

[00:26:20] And so I, I do find I push myself a little harder.

[00:26:23] Maybe if I'm in a community setting, I, you know, maybe, you know, if I have 30 minutes,

[00:26:28] maybe I should do the full 30.

[00:26:29] And so it's an opportunity to, to really test into that.

[00:26:33] Um, and for all the reasons that you said, yeah, I don't like boutique fitness personally

[00:26:38] a ton, a lot of it.

[00:26:40] Cause I don't like sharing equipment and sweat.

[00:26:42] I like my own station and my own space.

[00:26:45] So it's one tonal, one member, like this is yours.

[00:26:47] You can do cardio on it.

[00:26:49] You can do strength training on it.

[00:26:50] You can do all of the features, all of the modes.

[00:26:53] Um, and so you kind of have this, this seven by seven spaces yours for the entire session,

[00:26:57] um, to do that.

[00:26:59] You get in real life coaching by some world expert coaches, but you also get like tech

[00:27:03] enablement, right?

[00:27:04] You'll still get form feedback.

[00:27:05] You'll still get the video of, you know, they're playing.

[00:27:08] So you get this tech enabled experience, but in real life.

[00:27:11] Um, and you'll get this community aspect of working out with whether it's your members

[00:27:16] or fellow kind of components.

[00:27:17] So really excited to see how it goes and test and learn and see what members and the general

[00:27:22] public think about it.

[00:27:24] Yeah.

[00:27:24] It's, um, interesting timing.

[00:27:29] Like, uh, I think by the time this comes out proof three, so, uh, Jim Crow and Jason

[00:27:34] Crow will, will be launching their longevity.

[00:27:37] A lot of it is based what you're talking about.

[00:27:39] I was like, well, it's individualized programming, but it's done in a group setting because people

[00:27:43] love that community and they still want to be coached.

[00:27:45] Right.

[00:27:46] Like I forgot about if I personally had a cohort of four to six people, um, that I really

[00:27:52] enjoy training with.

[00:27:53] Right.

[00:27:54] Uh, you know, maybe have things in common and it's kind of our social time, but we come

[00:27:57] in, but we're still doing things because, you know, Eric's left shoulder is junked up.

[00:28:00] So he can't do all the things that, you know, Steve or Julie can do.

[00:28:03] And, um, and vice versa, there's some certain things in total can take care of that.

[00:28:07] Right.

[00:28:07] That tech enable component can monitor those movements or shift those movements when necessary,

[00:28:13] but still you get to sit down in between sets, you get to jam a little bit, you get to talk,

[00:28:18] Hey, how are things going?

[00:28:19] Um, you know, maybe grab some, uh, you know, have your protein shake and stretch afterwards.

[00:28:23] Like there's a lot of components to the community thing that are awesome, but having that individualized

[00:28:28] experience within a group dynamic, I think is really part of the future of fitness.

[00:28:33] Um, great term by the way, great term.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:35] I agree.

[00:28:36] I talked to Jim a little bit about that and kind of like, you know, I'm, I'm going to definitely

[00:28:39] go to Scott'sdale when proof three opens and, and, and, and test that out.

[00:28:43] I think it's, I think there's that, that, I think exactly how you're saying that dynamic

[00:28:46] between group train group person, but getting individualization.

[00:28:50] And so tunnel can do that by, you know, prescription of suggested weights that are going to be

[00:28:54] individualized, you know, might be able to do movement replacements for going small.

[00:28:57] So we can do like a little more hands on touches for this test.

[00:29:00] Um, but you can kind of think about this idea of, uh, it's a group workout, but I'm getting

[00:29:04] my own individual kind of, kind of prescription, I think is a really interesting combination.

[00:29:09] So yeah, if you want to reopen that gym, let's, let's talk, talk to more.

[00:29:13] We'll, we'll talk your wife into it.

[00:29:14] We can, me and you can open it together, but I think that's a really interesting space.

[00:29:18] Yeah, I really do.

[00:29:19] Uh, we talked a lot about the hardware capabilities and things like that, but what about like

[00:29:23] the software, the AI components, you know, where, where is that, um, coming into play

[00:29:28] in both like the, the total two, but in the training setting, like how, how is that?

[00:29:32] I know it's in the background, right?

[00:29:33] Like all great technology that's working.

[00:29:35] It's not forward facing.

[00:29:36] It's just doing things in the background.

[00:29:37] So, you know, how much time and energy and resources are you guys putting into AI development?

[00:29:42] How is that shifting your product?

[00:29:44] Um, yeah, give us some insights.

[00:29:46] Yeah, there are, there's a lot.

[00:29:48] Like, I think, you know, there's a lot of like hardware that you don't see that it enables

[00:29:54] that are being upgraded processes, chips and faster, faster, you know, things that I don't

[00:29:58] really understand, but all of that is, is being upgraded.

[00:30:00] But what it allows us to do, right, is capture even more high quality data.

[00:30:04] I think that's the sort of the, the kind of the, the genesis of any good AI project is

[00:30:10] what data set do you have?

[00:30:11] And nowadays, almost what proprietary data set do you have?

[00:30:14] Um, so you've got like your typical generative AI, your open AI or whatever it might be,

[00:30:19] which can give you, you know, a recent graduate from a personal training kind of things, level

[00:30:25] of advice as a generalization, um, but can't personalize it to you.

[00:30:29] And I think where we're investing our time and things, how do we merge our proprietary

[00:30:33] data sets around what we know about our population as a whole?

[00:30:36] And what do we know about you as an individual?

[00:30:38] Um, and how do you layer that on top of other sort of maybe, you know, open source or, or

[00:30:44] kind of more broadband, um, AI solution.

[00:30:47] So the team spends a lot of time, um, and working on a lot of features, not like I can

[00:30:51] always develop, still talk about, but around how we make better personalization recommendations.

[00:30:55] How do we make more, more kind of use of that, um, proprietary data set, um, which is 250

[00:31:04] billion pounds ish, 10 billion reps, um, something in that kind of region on top of, on top of

[00:31:11] Gen AI.

[00:31:12] And then you've got the other side of, of AI, which is this pose modeling, right?

[00:31:16] We've now got front facing camera.

[00:31:17] So we've already captured and we'll continue to capture, but capture even more post model

[00:31:22] data around human movement at very large scales.

[00:31:26] And so start understanding sort of, you know, how function changes, uh, with particular patterns

[00:31:31] or movements with particular, um, you know, programs or users and how might we coach those

[00:31:37] and use it to coach you better, um, to do that.

[00:31:40] So lots of work around there.

[00:31:42] And then we released, um, a few months ago now, but this, uh, concept of training effect

[00:31:47] goals, um, where we cataloged every single movement and therefore every single workout

[00:31:52] and program in our library into seven distinct, I think it's seven, um, goals.

[00:31:57] So most typically we talk about strength or something like that.

[00:32:00] So we know like, you know, when you're lifting over 80% of your one RM, so we class that as

[00:32:04] a strength set, right?

[00:32:05] Cause we know that the research says that over straight over things.

[00:32:08] So we can accumulate that by lifts, by movement pattern, by person.

[00:32:12] Um, we know that, you know.

[00:32:15] Hey friends, Eric Malzone here.

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[00:33:46] In order to, I'm trying to think of another one, but functional strength, we want a bit more like movement pattern for us.

[00:33:52] That's like a little more space of stability support challenging.

[00:33:55] So we know we can rate, hey, these are like you worked on functional strength here because you worked on split squats or lunges or rotational movements and these other patterns.

[00:34:05] And so we basically catalog our entire library and then what you've done as an individual.

[00:34:09] So then we can progressively overload you, not just in strength, but in all these parameters of, hey, last week you did 15 strength sets.

[00:34:18] This week, let's try for 16 or 17 strength sets and progression in these other ways.

[00:34:24] One of the things I always think about an opportunity for this type of work, obviously, is the integration of other sources of data.

[00:34:30] So wearable data, nutrition data, things like that.

[00:34:34] You know, is that something that A, is on your roadmap and B, how, when do you think something like that would be realized?

[00:34:41] Yeah, it's something we talk a lot about internally.

[00:34:45] I'd say the primary way that we do data aggregation right now is through HealthKit, through Apple HealthKit.

[00:34:49] And so if you go for a run or a bike ride, you know, kind of things, we will show that data, like we'll ingest that data and we'll show you that your legs are tired because you ran a marathon.

[00:34:59] You didn't do anything on tonal, but on our muscle utilization, we will show that there's tired because you ran a marathon yesterday.

[00:35:04] So there's an ingestion there, you know, I would say a basic level, but maybe not the most advanced level.

[00:35:11] And so it's updating there.

[00:35:12] I think we will continue to lean into that aggregation.

[00:35:16] And for us, it's a bit of a question of like, we have so much data of our own and we continue to find using, you know, valuable ways for members to utilize that.

[00:35:27] And so once you have this incredible data set, like we need to make sure that we're making best use of that before you start integrating additional data.

[00:35:35] Would we like to know how our members slept?

[00:35:38] Yeah, probably.

[00:35:39] That would be nice.

[00:35:40] I probably care more about like, what was the velocity of your first rep?

[00:35:44] Because you could have slept terrible, but your data that you're lifting says you're great.

[00:35:50] Should I change that?

[00:35:51] Like that's an interesting paradigm around how do you like, well, my wearable, because you get this with athletes, elite athletes all the time, because we've been wearing wearables and other devices for years.

[00:36:01] And like, you know, it's game day or it's, you know, the Olympic final and my data set, my readiness is only a 52 out of 100.

[00:36:09] What am I supposed to do with that?

[00:36:11] If I'm warming up great and I'm feeling great and my performance metrics are great, it doesn't matter as much.

[00:36:18] Now, long term systemic changes, we want to be able to do those things.

[00:36:21] So I think we do want to add a greater at some point and work with our colleagues and partners in that.

[00:36:29] But we're focused on, I guess, more immediate we're concerned or more immediate opportunities ourselves.

[00:36:34] And it's also, it's just fractured space, right?

[00:36:37] You know, do you do you do Apple Watch?

[00:36:40] Do you do Whoop?

[00:36:41] Do you do Aura?

[00:36:42] Do you do like they've all, all of them have decent market share, but no one's a monopoly.

[00:36:47] And then they're like, okay, well, how do I, how do I look at that?

[00:36:49] And obviously there are solutions that will aggregate it for you, but yeah.

[00:36:53] Opportunities for future.

[00:36:55] Yeah, there is.

[00:36:55] I mean, there's companies like Rook.

[00:36:57] I know those guys well who aggregate that data, clean it up, make it useful, you know, and present it in a really nice way.

[00:37:04] So there's always those options that come in.

[00:37:06] We'll kind of call those like the plumbing of the industry of, you know, things that are happening behind the scenes.

[00:37:11] There's lots of APIs that you can give access to and kind of things.

[00:37:15] Yeah, we certainly have lots of conversations around that with lots of really great technology partners in that space.

[00:37:22] Yeah.

[00:37:22] When I imagine like something, you know, when I look at my total, I'm like, ah, this is like, it would be such at some point in time where it was just the centerpiece of the internet of things within a house.

[00:37:32] Right.

[00:37:33] Where it was like, okay, well, I just got done with my training.

[00:37:36] You know, it says, hey, Eric, you have, you know, we just ordered more chicken breast because you're not eating enough protein after your workouts.

[00:37:43] Right.

[00:37:43] Like something like that, you know, and it's connected.

[00:37:46] It's like it's checking our HRV and not giving you particularly insights in the moment, but also giving you long term trends about how your strength training is affected by different things in your life.

[00:37:55] Obviously, that's, you know, a promise of AI that I think a lot of people think about is like this super personalization, you know, like health assistant in your pocket.

[00:38:06] And, you know, strength training, as we know, is very integral to long term health.

[00:38:10] So you guys are positioned well for many, many things going into the future is kind of exciting.

[00:38:15] Yeah, I think that's that's the exciting.

[00:38:17] I don't know if it's a three to five to 10 year horizon.

[00:38:20] I'm not exactly sure when it comes, but that's the exciting opportunity, I think, for all of us in this space is is what that really connected personalization can really enable for people to get better health outcomes.

[00:38:32] Right.

[00:38:32] We know particularly with a with a longevity look on things, but people are generally living longer, maybe not in the US, but in the Western world in general.

[00:38:40] And hopefully the US can kind of start start living longer, too.

[00:38:44] But most of those populations are not living healthier for those years.

[00:38:48] And so the more that we can do to personalize those recommendations, to make them I think it's to make them better recommend just to make them more sticky.

[00:38:57] I actually don't think it's a lack of knowledge.

[00:39:00] I don't think you you you or I and I think the general consumer, maybe I'm biased, but I think they know they need to eat enough protein.

[00:39:08] They just don't do it or they know they need to train.

[00:39:11] Maybe protein might not be the best.

[00:39:12] I don't know.

[00:39:13] But like, I think at least as it goes to health and fitness, I think some of them know we just don't knowledge doesn't lead to change and behavior change.

[00:39:21] And so I what I'm thinking is the data and the integration for personalization recommendations that make more sticky feels more personal for me.

[00:39:29] Therefore, I'm more likely to do it like why every email you get from any company over signed up to is like, hey, Eric, because they're trying to be personal to you.

[00:39:37] I know 150,000 people got the same email, but it's all it's for me.

[00:39:41] But if you can resonate with better messages and more personalized things, I think there's a stickiness to it.

[00:39:46] So I guess the combination between the information that they're getting and the personalization of how it feels for me is always kind of important.

[00:39:55] Yeah. And timing.

[00:39:56] Yeah. I think that's the thing that people forget about personalization.

[00:39:58] It's not just your personal journey, but it's hitting people with the right message at the right time when they're emotionally available to accept that message or, you know, something in their life is keen or they just made a major progression in their training and lifestyle.

[00:40:11] Now they're time for the next, you know, they're ready for the next step.

[00:40:14] I think that's that's the big thing that people kind of forget about is the actual timing.

[00:40:17] We're very emotional creatures.

[00:40:19] So you got to catch us with the right message at the right time and that'll be way more effective.

[00:40:22] So very cool.

[00:40:24] Yeah, you guys are very well positioned.

[00:40:25] I think I asked you this question last time, but, you know, when you look at the landscape of health and fitness, Troy and performance and, you know, all the stuff that's going on right now, like, you know, longevity and precision wellness and insert, you know, a big name tag here, right?

[00:40:40] Like everything that we're doing.

[00:40:41] Yeah.

[00:40:41] Buzzword.

[00:40:42] Thank you.

[00:40:43] When you look at 2025, what has you most excited for our industry?

[00:40:48] I think it's a, as an industry as a whole, I feel, I feel we've been on this for a verge, but like, I think it's become cool to be health and fit and healthy.

[00:41:00] Like the concepts of health and wealth.

[00:41:02] And I think that is starting to resonate, not just with people like you and I that have preached that for a while, but with general population.

[00:41:09] Um, I'm like, again, my parents, they know about what I do for a living.

[00:41:15] They ask me about strength training when I go home.

[00:41:17] Right.

[00:41:18] My, I'm generally people are that I wouldn't have generally like got that type of conversation for.

[00:41:24] I'm now thinking, oh, I need to do strength training or I need to be like kind of things.

[00:41:28] And I think we have broken into that.

[00:41:30] So as a, as a broad industry, I'm jazzed about that.

[00:41:33] Um, because I think it's, we've had the evidence base for far too long.

[00:41:36] We've just not been able to convince people.

[00:41:38] Now we need, we as a fitness industry needs to be able to capitalize on that and provide people with the right solutions at the right time for, in order for them to get some sticky, sticky habits and build some changes there.

[00:41:51] Um, but I think that's what excites me the most is I think, I think it's now not just something that like, yeah, the fitness industry does, but I think it's cool to be healthy.

[00:42:00] Um, and the more that we can lean into being cool, to be healthy is probably really going to be positive.

[00:42:05] Not just cause I want to be a jacked 25 year old and I want to look good on the beach, but because this is foundational to like me having a long, successful, happy, healthy life for me and my family.

[00:42:16] Yeah.

[00:42:16] I don't know.

[00:42:17] It's excellent points, right?

[00:42:19] And I think when you look at the super billionaire elite, you know, it's not necessarily, they still have their yachts, but like Bezos, right?

[00:42:27] Like the guy's ripped, like people are wanting to stay in shape.

[00:42:31] That's like a sign of like stature now, right?

[00:42:34] Which it always hasn't been.

[00:42:36] No, it was a sign of stature back in the day to be fat, right?

[00:42:39] It means you had an abundance of food, um, which is why we're all working against like genetics of years and years ago.

[00:42:47] But it was, it was, it was a survival mechanism and that became into a status symbol mechanism.

[00:42:52] Um, and it, it seems to have changed that.

[00:42:55] And you even see at the high end, right?

[00:42:58] Longevity clinics at the very top end.

[00:43:00] I, I work with David Martin, who's the chief scientist at Aperion Life out of Atherton and Menno Park.

[00:43:06] And yeah, most of their clients are extremely, extremely wealthy and they're spending big bucks on getting things.

[00:43:12] The Peter Attia's clients of the world, um, you know, you're seeing these, these people that have made their fortunes and are investing large amounts of it, um, into, into doing that.

[00:43:22] I don't think you have to invest large amounts.

[00:43:24] Um, I think there are much, you know, there are definitely solutions, but you do you and you can welcome to all of those high end solutions, but there's a lot we could do without having to invest those kinds of bucks to be cool when we're older.

[00:43:36] Yeah.

[00:43:37] Right on.

[00:43:37] Well said, Troy.

[00:43:38] Uh, so I know you personally, you're fairly active on LinkedIn.

[00:43:42] Um, now, so yeah, give us some insights.

[00:43:44] Like if people want to reach out to you and talk to you, they want to find out more about, you know, Tonal 2 or the training lab, which is very timely.

[00:43:50] Like give us all the places where do you want people to go, Troy?

[00:43:53] Yeah.

[00:43:53] The, so for Tonal General, anything Tonal 2, go to tonal.com.

[00:43:57] All the information will be there.

[00:43:58] Uh, the Tonal Training Lab has its own website, tonaltraininglab.com.

[00:44:01] That's live as we speak right now, but, um, is, it will be live through the end of February for that.

[00:44:07] Um, I'm active on, on LinkedIn.

[00:44:10] Just search for my name and see, see my ugly picture.

[00:44:12] Um, and you'll find me there.

[00:44:13] And, uh, I do a little bit on, on Instagram occasionally, uh, under strength science, Troy, uh, share some Tonal Training there.

[00:44:20] Yeah.

[00:44:21] Awesome, man.

[00:44:21] Well, Troy, thank you for, uh, reaching out and giving me the insight so we could do this special, you know, uh, addition to make sure this gets out on time and people are informed what's going on with all the groundbreaking news you guys have.

[00:44:32] It's really cool.

[00:44:32] And I continue to be a super fan and, uh, really appreciate what you guys do over there.

[00:44:37] Tonal.

[00:44:37] So yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Troy Taylor.

[00:44:39] Thank you so much.

[00:44:40] Appreciate it.

[00:44:43] Hey, wait, don't leave yet.

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