Steven Webster - Asensei: From Movement Recognition to Coaching Intelligence

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[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Our real life, Stephen Webster. Welcome back to the future of fitness.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a little bit good to see you.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for the future. I like it.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder how many people outside of our age bracket actually recognize that?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of spans different generations now, right?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like hopefully.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I tried to have my 10 year old son sit down and watch it with me.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: He was like, no, it's one of those old movies.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: This is so good to see all of it.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, every definitely enjoy ourselves.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But it is all puns aside in jokes, sight is great to have you back.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not just joking. I've been foreign to half a year since I was doing on the future of fitness.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And once again, I feel it starts to date myself about how long I've been doing this podcast thing

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: About seven years.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think recently as of this year, I got to see your keynote at the Connected Health and Fitness Summit back in April,

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in Los Angeles.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It was captivating, man. You made some really strong cases about, you know, I'll let you talk about it

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, crossing the chasm and what that means for different brands and, you know, digital evolution.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not just fitness and wellness technologies and brands and experiences, but also looking at, you know,

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: history and looking at other industries and what we can, you know, look to emulate as we move forward.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So super, and then we're going to talk, you know, a core about that.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it had been four and a half years Steven. Maybe give us a little bit of update like what's going on with the, he sent saying, yeah,

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What's new with you?

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I'd be like, you know, let's put the keynote for us because that was a good framing because, you know,

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I say since he's almost 10 years old, so we can have the halfway mark.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That's when you first interviewed, we're almost up, you know,

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been in the, kind of the digital health and digital fitness industry for 10 years,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but being in the technology industry in my entire career and, you know, I think one of the things I really tried to frame,

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I was asked to keynote around what does the future look like?

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I'm a big believer in the future looks like the past history runs.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, you know, you know, I have spoken about this quite a bit before offline,

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but I've always thought that the e-commerce is a great yardstick if you like for what the digital transformation of newer cangreens looks like.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Because here we are e-commerce is 30 years old, you know, it's hard to think that when it still seems so new.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so really, you know, how am I encouraged people to think about any category this transforming is,

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: is the diffusion of innovation, not everybody has everything new all at once.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like we suddenly all on a Tesla, you know, there's the early adopters that like the ideas of EVs and they don't care about the site that does not much but charging network yet.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: They'll go up with that pain to be first and then you fast forward, you know, 30 years.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't even believe we used to drive gas cars like how crazy was that.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it takes a long time for technology to diffuse from the what I call the pioneers and the innovators and the early adopters into the mass market.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So even the laggards, even the people that said it was never going to be true are, you know, quite delighted with the product we had 30 years ago, the never believed should exist in the first place.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I think about the digital transformation of health and fitness.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the pioneers like Palatone and Hydro and all the people who took their products like he's going to want that.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it was the kickstarter campaign funders like UNI that would go and buy these products.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We're now crossing the chasm and crossing the chasm is like are we going to make it to the mass market or not?

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I used often the analogies of companies like Blockbuster and Blackberry and Kodak, the fall backwards into the chasm because

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: they're too, they've all done too tightly to the belief that the future will look just like the past.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And in some pioneers make it over the chasm and some spectacularly run out of money and fall down the bottom making a lot of noise.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But the mass market shows up and then the general consumer and the general population are much more accepting of you know what I would like a piece of fitness equipment at home or I've always thought about strength training.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And using e-commerce is an example.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It's you if you were to ask people 30 years ago who would be the top online fashion retailers and you told them it was going to be Macy's and calls in the US they would never have believed you.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they would have thought it was like some company that most of us have never heard of anymore who rose meteorically like a shooting star and fizzled out into the night.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'm very excited about the health and fitness category where we're we're a big part of it now we're part of the fabric of it and it'll look a lot like the past.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's I mean what I took away from it was this and it is my firm belief because you know we saw such an unusual time during the pandemic of just the acceleration of adoption right for digital fitness just more out of necessity and then you know all the conversations that have over the three years right.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Times are dead right like dot I didn't love that we don't have to talk about that it was just all but I mean we if we've been around for a little bit we start to see cycles and I've been 17 years in this industry now so now I'm finally starting to see some real cycles come through.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's always the long ball right as like technology is going to transform just about everything we do and fitness and wellness is no different it just matter if you look at it a linear versus the spike that we had.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the adoption is going to continue and the technology's going to continue to evolve so I thought that was kind of a really good framework that you put on that and for my memory you kind of put companies into three different categories right it was a.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Pioneers digital natives and legacy brands so maybe expand on those and give us some examples.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Of what those were yeah reason I the reason I like to categorize them is you need to know who you are.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: To understand the competitive opportunities and so it's for you in the landscape as transformations happening and then for other companies like a sense you need to know who you're selling to it to understand their pains and how you can address them so.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I start with the pioneers the pioneers are the peloton's the tunnels the hydros arguably the night keys and the Nike pluses and the under armors.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But they can a named and frame the category they're the first ones to speak about like we're connected fitness and we're we're here and we're new and we're here to stay and we're going to disrupt.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen, the pioneers are in a predicament you know they've raised a lot of money at high valuations there's rush to be profitable.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They built a lot of things that other people can buy now so now they're on legacy technology that that advantage becomes at this advantage and your palatons are good metaphor because everybody else is now drafting behind you can already to make their attack any moment.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's tough being a pioneer you you have an opportunity to become the category king, but if you don't see that opportunity.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You you kind of start to face it's like new engines and you need to start thinking about what's core to what we do and what's the stuff that we should accept that sunk cost fallacy of like we maybe spend millions and millions of dollars building something.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But we could buy it for thousands of dollars a month and it would be best are and it would take a lower pain away so that's the pioneers.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The next.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know this I loved the the legacy brands all the one of our customers power block and you've met mass and I think from power block.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't ask me like stop calling us legacy you make us send all them like dude you can sell it dumbbells for 30 years you are all but you know,

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's it's like I like to think of us as a legendary brand that I love that because I think legacy brands who managed to write the wave of a digital transformation become legendary brands the ones that don't fall into the chasm like.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what's the real thing about that is that you can't go back or block us through our Blackberry digital transformation transformation makes them legendary because they're relevant again.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's typically the great thing about like legacy brands is they have a P and L and they're profitable and they have like massive customer bases and loyal signs.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And they just have to think about how they embraced digital and so if you're a legendary brands, you know, maybe M&E is a good strategy how to how does the equipment manufacturer acquire a digital company like one of our customers is sent or less a great example.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Most folks in this industry probably know that hypostcap all came along into inspire fitness who were like making you know really great so this equipment and sensor where they're really great digital app.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Celebrating doors and they put the two of them together under the center of Ryan, so that's I think a great example of you know legendary brands thinking about are they're going to move into the digital future most importantly the way I record the pick and shovel companies and that's us.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And what happens is you cross the chasel and both the digital natives in the legendary brands they start thinking, you know we want to go expecting for goals.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's buy our picks and shovels and let's buy our denim jeans and let's not be worrying about you know the stuff that everyone else has already solved and so when I think about picking shovel brands and that's not for his eye calling it's a phrase the VCA industry kind.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's this something is a service seen our friends in the industry like CDF and we provide music as a service.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Marks provide video as a service.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Rook provide wearable integration as a service and the sense he provides movement recognition as a service.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've kind of shown up to say whether you're a legendary legacy brand, whether you're a digital native or whether you're a pioneer they realize he's your sitting on legacy technology.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no longer a competitive advantage but is slowing your progress down.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Gets the future faster with picks and shovels so that's kind of how I frame the kind of great that's how I think about our sales forecast and our pipeline and our portfolio of customers.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I encourage our customers to think about themselves as they think about the digital charge.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah nice to kind of a fun question.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I have for you see even if you had a pick one, if you're going to be a pioneer digital native or a legendary brand.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what would you be?

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, I'm a pioneer, I'm a digital native trapped in the pioneers body of saying, you know, I can't.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to be, don't want to be legacy.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I want to be legendary but with said my DNA is always been innovation.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always fascinated by that intersection of what's possible and what's probable.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And so my entire career has been about believing something that no one else believes with conviction and trying to bring it to market.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've been telling everybody that AI movement recognition would exist for 10 years now.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe only in the last 12 to 18 months, do more people agree with me than disagree with me right?

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sort of a pioneer in that regard.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish I was in, you know, it's a lonely journey for eight of the 10 years.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But what I like about digital natives is fundamentally a building things and I like bringing products to market and I like being close to customer.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So the great thing about what I do as a Sancie has I get to live vacations like through my customers.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, working with brands like all turn and buy is digital natives isn't an example.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm excited but their products and I'm excited but have excited, their customers are about their products.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just have the privilege of being a small part of that.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah man. Well, I think this is a really good kind of framework for how talk about what you do is tell it in the lens of a client.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, if we want to break it down into different categories but like alter you mentioned them right there into I mean you can explain better what they do.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I've looked at them and researched them and never experienced alter. I'm sure you have so.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It was an idea like how would you categorize a company like alter how do you guys work with them? How do you enhance these experiences?

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so alter go check them out alter me dot com great team. Let me talk about their team first because I love a lot of teams and so you know, I think it was two sites that team the founders Scott and blade Scott Cohen.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: This is their fourth fifth six company hugely successful entrepreneurs.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Their last company was a I believe a competitor to invisiline kind of in the in the dental brace market.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: They sold that company for a billion dollars no VC. I mean they just the product guys they really understand how do you look at a market.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Where there's innovation but the consumer still got on my needs or the underserved and how do you innovate on the product with a profitable product and Scott self connected fitness as a.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: As a great example of one of those markets so the product is a screen this is a reflective screen it's a mirror the hands on the wall.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Big belief also have is hyper personalization like how can you hyper personalized.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The consumers experience so that your work out in my work are very different workers.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: The other things Scott and Blake do is they're not the smartest guys in the room. They're very smart at what they do but we bring in experts and the characters that they choose to disrupt and so they hired tremendous folks.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a good like Nike and under armor DNA and that team on the sports science and the marketing side.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I look at alter is like you know it's the product Nike should have built and the connected fitness mirror.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You open your onboard to give an DNA swab and that DNA is used to kind of personalize a lot of the detail of what your programming and work out will be you wear a strap that's monitoring your heart rate.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Like should be going hard or should be kind of more inward focused and as well as using bi-match bi-metrics for hyper personalization they're using bi-makhanics and that's where the science he comes in the camera on the mirror is watching every exercise you do.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing the basics, the price of admission stuff of like I'm not going to make you write down how many reps you did or what way you use like I'll do that for you and watching you. I should be doing that for you.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But more importantly when you start observing someone's technique in their form they can make good decisions about adjustments to your programming. Now those adjustments could be read based and load based or those adjustments could be technique based.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Like Eric is nailing his forward lunges so it's time for a forward lunch with rotation or is time for forward lunch with rotation while holding loads.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so now you know they can deliver those kind of experiences and I think the last thing I love about altar which is also I love many things about it but another thing I love about altar is it really thought about how to blend the hybrid experience so it's not just hyper personalization but it's hybrid so you have access to coaching staff.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's like human looking at your data and you can kind of have those like once a one coaching calls. So they're really thinking about what that hybrid experience is.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So interestingly it's not necessarily hybrid at home and then Jim we just had an arts click pretty calm.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We're all good company.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't miss California and I know I'm feeling if it's not fire as the source clicks.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So you know hyper personalization but also that could have hybrid of you know human and the loop and AI and the loop so yeah really exciting customer going check them out go buy their products.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's what you get to experience a sense of what see that's something I didn't really think about like the progression regression improvements right movement selection repetition like that makes a lot of sense that that's that's really valuable and that's something that you generally only a coach can do.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You know it's interesting you know this about me my background in coaching is martial arts and like in martial arts I'm sorry to do all the injuries to think karate.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I've always had a belt system I've always had a belt to black belt and as a as a martial artist as an athlete.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That was my motivation.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to train for my next belt I wanted to get my next belt.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I would be nervous and excited about my grading the grading was a day where you might not go you know ice cream afterwards you know it was a big event in the family and so you were kind of taught that importance of progression and there was progression within a belt like your you know your training to get better

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the things you need to do for the criteria for that belt but then there's always and you could look down the line to your right and you can see the people about higher than you and the people on your left we're looking at you so you had a sense of where you are.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also where you could be and one of the interesting things from you when I started a sense is that was already baked into the underlying architecture of how our product was going to work like one of my two co-founders.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: He's also a martial artist. He's a sixth degree black belt in karate and so as he and I had you know before we kind of really start reaching out to customers and we were more than that like is this even possible?

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we teach a machine to understand movement and coach sport?

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We had this notion of coaching pedagogy and teaching syllabus and that like there was no point starting this company unless we could progress you through a syllabus and make you better thing.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So when I then started the company and I chose to I spent far too much time on the mat during martial arts as I need to throw myself into activities where I'm a white belt again where I'm a beginner again.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I started showing up at European classes and plays with former classies and demolished in the T.R.X headquarters in San Francisco and I was just you're taking all these different classes and I realized that actually T.R.X would be an exception because they have an excellent educational kind of philosophy.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But most other practices is like there's no way about to black belt. There's no common understanding of when you progress someone when you regress someone.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah that's a core part of our technology and I really love the altars team because of the DNA of the no pun intended because of the DNA of the performance science and the coaching team at altars.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: They understand the tracking reps and tracking load and tracking when CT happens and tracking quality of movement is important that flow.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I state that aren't we are all watching the Olympic right now and we see athletes in flow but we can all experience micro moments of flow in any activity where it just you know it clicks it feels good or a loss myself and that.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: The flow is the equilibrium of challenge and skill. So if you're over challenging someone or you're under challenging someone, the rider frustrated or bored.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you come and ask me, well how can I use AI to drive engagement find flow find that equilibrium of challenge and skill and show people progression is progression retention.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think alter or nailing that and it's a price of admission experience that you know we're certainly seeing and you'll start to see a lot of customers doing it.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You win the year because I came from it too, I always crossfit to seem so prime for some sort of belt system right and there's a lot of companies out there that develop the framework which is just very complicated and like it's got a similar.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I just going to be a little bit simpler right but yeah that would just seem so perfect because people love to progress you know through that and it really is it's very similar in the martial arts and even the little bit of dabble then.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it was somebody do it right.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: They're listening to the belt system I think it's that yeah and you know just not to go to off topic but the belt system was first introduced in judo and jagoro can or the founder of judo worked for the department of education or the ministry of education and japan so it took a teacher.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: To introduce something to a discipline to teach kids for physical fitness so it's very much teaching philosophy and a coaching philosophy and then engagement philosophy.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: If you read all the latest literature on gamification I mean it's it's you know it ladders up to so many of the things that we've learned since there's a psychology in this science behind.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah awesome.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: See that you talked about power block and they've been around forever I have a set in my garage.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know it's great equipment right it's great stuff and how do you take something like that right this would be the legacy or they don't like that they like legendary brand right we'll give them we'll give them that.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: How do what do you do for something like that I mean there's dumbbells all over the place are you are they building it into the actual dumbbell now or like yeah how are you moving how are you doing.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Moving recognition coaching intelligence team to come down to the top well the great thing about someone like a power block is it's a very analog product right you know it's.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I know we could name 100 products like a power block I don't mean as good and then interchangeable dumbbell but.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many fitness products that we all use that are polyurethane and steel or they're you know parachute web extra apps are you know they're analog they don't need to have sensors and them or batteries and them or Bluetooth connections and them.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So we'd realize obviously with the sensei we're using the camera on a smart phone or a TV or a set up box or a connected fitness mirror we can observe what the person is doing we call that pose estimation so we can observe your posture over time in your movement.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And that allows us to recognize that you're doing a squat or a squat to press or a dumbbell curl or an alternating forward lunge or whatever exercise you're doing we can see that you're doing it.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: How well you're doing it whether we should coach you in real time whether the next thing we see you doing it we should give you a couple of tips is like hey Eric or Nathan Lundes but remember I want you pressing off your front leg not going back to your back leg or whatever we saw the last thing will kind of be your intention for the next thing.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've nailed coaching the person but the next thing we realized is now that the camera is pointing at the scene what else can we use AI to infer about scene and so we built into our computer vision pipeline we built this ability.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey friends Eric Malson here I've had the honor of interviewing over 750 professionals across the fitness health and wellness industries is one thing I know for sure.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Without a doubt there is a tremendous opportunity leverage a highly valuable and relatively untapped network of independent podcasts using content creators.

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[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That's podcast collective dot eye.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: To train the machine to write nice specific objects, then I start particularly novel to a sensey.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There's novel in how we do it and how we do it accurately which I won't be in search.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know we've all seen hot dog not hot dog right if you watched Silicon Valley or you know Google training recognition of cat version is dog.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're not able to take a skew like a power block, crow 50 and say let's teach the machine to recognize a power pro 50 a power block crow 50 when it's in view of the camera.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Then with the same say let's fuse that fusion is when you combine two different AI models.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's have fusion with pose estimation so I see Eric and a C power block crow 50 and never see the Eric is holding that power block crow 50 in his hands.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So we know recognized apple pencil.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We know recognize that you're holding that crow 50 and what you're doing with it.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But then the final thing we learned that we were able to do is like fine tune the recognition of that model.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So the way you're interchangeable profifty works is you know you put it on the ground you just change a little selector and it changes the way that comes out the cradle.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We can teach the machine to see what I can't even see if I'm watching a video of you kind of just doing curls with the prof.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard for me to tell whether that's 10 pounds 15 pounds 25 pounds.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We've trained the machine to discern so we've turned the smartphone into a scale.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So now however many power blocks in this up to maximum to tell you how many are sold and then market.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But we've made them connected fitness products overnight at the same price, no addition to the bill of materials.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You can now have that that interchangeable dumbbell be part of a connected fitness experience.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Now alter or not a power block customer.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But you can imagine a future and if you're training in front of your connected fitness mirror with a power block.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Not only will we do the work of logging the reps that you're doing will do the work of logging the load that you're using and will also do the work of recognizing that with that loads.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You seem to start to fatigue three or four reps early or so now the things a coach would see such as maybe that loads a little heavy because I want to see you go to failure between eight and ten reps and you're got to failure between seven to nine.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Drop five pounds on the next set.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Logging reps and logging loads is the foundation of programming and so what we want to deliver at home personalized coaching as if we had a coach in the room.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's price of admission and so I'm really excited for power block we're working with a number of other customers where we're training recognition and understanding of their equipment and how you're using it.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's like another stage in our computer vision pipeline that we we buy this as well.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I listen to a podcast, even then you had with Paul Larson at a rebel stroke.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the hit science podcast I really urge people he's also one of the founders about teleka dot AI so he knows is stuff.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, he knows the shit.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure you guys had a really interesting conversation about it.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I like rep counting and balling you like it's not just a nice feature, but it's really critical for coaching and coaching intelligence therefore right so maybe I mean.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm probably bastardizing that conversation because you guys did it really elegantly, but didn't give us like the summation of why that's so critical for the industry and for coaches.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean since time begon I mean I remember a long time ago and I like the first book on karate at the time the try to remind you.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been smart as we went on to be one of my coaches like 20 years later, but you know I that manual and in the back of that manual was Vince's weight routine.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like the the workout bench with that and I had a bench in my room as a kid and I you know I trace those pages out the book and stuck them on my wall and I track my reps and I always wanted to do more and do more reps and do more weights and you know I've got I came into sharing LinkedIn actually.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Bruce Lee's work of it's like he's the all of his index cards are in a museum and see also where up every rap and every set he ever did.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the foundation of improvement is measuring past performance and form future programming and I mean they teach this in nasa more ACM or any other kind of sporting is like bush or clients goals is in strength is it endurance is a power is it muscle building and what's there one rep max you know what's there was the maximum

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: one word they could move and only move once. I did programming even to this day is derived from that where do you want to see failure between eight to 12 reps at x percent of your one red max if your goal is this.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's how coaches of always programs so again, if I want to solve the problem of how can unsupervised practice the as effective it's not more effective.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Then practice with a coach there I need to know your reps I need to know your loads I need to observe fatigue and that will allow us to adapt programming so.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't live in a world where chat GPT just given the right prompt is going to come up with the perfect programming for you is still a scientific method is not hallucination it's is information and so yeah I'm really excited now.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So we can start to track the kind of detail the what are there's a human in the loop or not allows us to deliver effective programming and the last thing I'll say is when you look at come like tick tonal as an example how many workouts of final tracked now.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And they talk about this you've got one of the largest data sets of instrumented exercise that's ever taken place so now you can start to do interesting things like measure the efficacy of your programming for someone of a particular.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Our archive is this kind of programming more effective than that programming well let's look at the numbers let's look at the long-achudinal data that we've collected over time so you know.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We actually filed pattern on this stuff like 10 years ago that the science of ad tech would become the science of fitness tech and they were able to use large data sets and multi-variate testing and.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're just days year or five of our slides.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so cool and I mean anyone knows me I make huge fan of telling all I just use it 20 minutes before this interview you know I've 30 minutes I went up there and what I love that is nice.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Well yeah thanks man I feel so well like I don't have to and this is someone I've worked with a lot of weights right over the years a lot of barbells a lot of dumbbells a lot of machines but I like to know because I don't have to think about it show up.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to move the weights around I don't do like it's very efficient and I have logs on my weights.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that I was a little off balance say now I think they have as you would probably agree they probably have a lot of work to do as far as I'm with recognition and motion capture capabilities they sure anyway we don't have to comment on that.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But the it is it is it for someone who's old school like I am I love it and I think programming when I look at AI and technology having program thousands of workouts like so many over the times and how quickly it gets thrown out the window do the things that technology could probably answer right now like time off right.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Being sick and vacations like all these things like just fatigue over time like all these things that can now be sourced through input data like you were talking about and the AI to process it correctly it's trained correctly with a great data that's super exciting I think that's like the lowest hanging fruit in our industry be quiet honest with you.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So here's to get your take on that yeah I mean I'm a big believer when it comes to programming and listen to coach thousands of athletes from white belt to black belt I didn't push thousands to black belt probably close to 100.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: White belt to brown belt the teaching syllabus rarely changed you know as I became a better coach.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I probably made a few kind of radical shifts every so often but on every four years or every five years I'm going to change the way I teach or the order of teach things and fundamentally the syllabus never changed.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you train with me for long enough and lots of my students, I'm with me for seven or eight years because they would do undergrad and PhD.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: They've seen the classes a hundred times before there were certain classes is just like after this class before we were learning how to do a hip throw for the first time and I know how he teaches hip throw and I know the progression is going to go through for the next two hours to teach so the programming didn't necessarily change but what was different every time and why people would still come back to the class eight years later was.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The consumption of the programming was different every time the personalization of it because the last thing needed the class they were a yellow bell and making this mistake and so I walked past as I hate turn your food a little bit more to open your hip there you go that's much easier isn't that next time I taught them the class.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know they're a brown belt or they're a black belt unlike banger and easy little depressure center gravity drops below there's you lift them a lot easier and really act with that are so same class same programming same exercise but I was tailoring the the the the the cream on top right the the and finally.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what a fancy offers right that's one of the things we offer is we don't need a i dynamically changing the programming every single time.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But you and I should be able to do the same workout and have a different experience of the workout match again to our our our challenge on our skill.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's kind of how I think about a lot of stuff is listen all right this is fundamental is this everyday myself my city or bell.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You've met Blake or VPSL's partnerships like we're all coached and every single day between us will have five or six conversations about.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: How did a coach our eyes gaze up to the right is we try and remember ten years ago some first you all in Scotland some church hall teaching cry and.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So I like how did I coach like I would do this and I would do that or I would use this drill or would break movements down this way.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Every every line of code and a rest of the case is an expression of how was coaches we coached like we're not kind of push technology on people were trying to scale coaching digitally and coaching might be as simple as like.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Make a really boring class where I need you doing a thousand reverse punches in the next two hours just to get the more memory in there.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I can still make it fun I don't have to just make you stand there and do a thousand I can mix up the programming and give you challenges and first to 10 or teams like I can do a lot just by counting your reps I can like really imagine like fun games and gamified ways of teaching you.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But getting the reps in or I can go to the other extreme and be like I'm going to give you like really really nuanced coaching on and all direction and timing.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So you lie that punch a split second before you're opponent and I can pay much same exercise different coaching strategies and that's a big thing of a sense is what you're coaching strategy.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah go on for hours of it.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's fun to talk about in your great storyteller one of the things that I think from my memory from four years ago when we did a podcast is you're really paying the picture of like.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: The in person experience and how this technology can change that I mean in the in the digital world right there's going to be increasing opportunities for this technology to evolve the experience.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But what about breaking more when you're training in real life what what are the opportunities there what do you see well again I go by to my fund my fund them and.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I know framework of history right and you know everyone loves to be in a tribe looking at another tribe telling the other tribe why they're right.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: They're wrong we're going to win and you're going to lose and you know in that past that being there with flash versus HTML or on premise versus cloud and like all these ass and I.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean it's you end up in as an industry and you know and we had one right it was like at home versus in person.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it says zero some game and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose and history leaves clues the future is going to be on the channel the pendulum will swing one way.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I know swing the other way and eventually it'll sell somewhere in the mall in the middle and every consumer is not going to behave exactly the same so some consumers might prefer spend more time in person because.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Your single and you like to community or because the drive home from a commute in the gyms a place they'd like to go to break their work dates on their.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Time at home and I'm dying that we've all got a million reasons why we may or may not like to go to the gym and for others it's at home when they provide the convenience or the time or the equipment are the experience are the embarrassed and they don't like to be a gym but if you're comfortable.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know about home so it's always going to be an all-me-channel experience but here's what happens and I'll use a different analogy.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember when we talked to bring your own device like how long ago was that was that like a year ago or 10 years ago, but you know you think you're Joe I got my job at Dolby I think that was probably the first job I was given a mobile for what is like your job blackberry and black blackberry and it has email and it was keys you know how.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And then like I don't have to pay for it and like that didn't last because about two years later I had an iPhone and I had two folks I had my blackberry for work in my iPhone and then.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of wonder into the IT department and I don't be able to like hey she knows get my iPhone on the email systems I can just do my email here.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And then what happened the experience of the consumer product was so much better than the experience of the enterprise product that the consumer's full can say I want to have this device here.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That is going to happen in this happening and health and fitness if you've got tunnel on your wall at home and you're going to a gym and that's been replaced with some janky 30 year old you know great grandfather of tunnel.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to grudge that gym membership and also you're going to be like and with my tunnel I didn't have to think about what exercises to do and it gave me my program and a lot of my work and it gave me a high five because I got a PB and attract my four blah blah blah.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So number one gyms fitness studios they have to be thinking about the consumers expectations have been elevated by digital at home.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I may have an expectation of the same elevation of experience in person now then you start thinking about what's the advantage of being in person while I have community those other people there there are coaches on the floor there is equipment that I don't own so if you can add digital to that you can elevate the experience again so it becomes this kind of arms race of experience and so.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Fast forward to today you know we're working with gyms we're working with the fitness studios we're working with franchises we're directing that we can drive member acquisition in motion well this is one of our customers we are.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You warm up with a practitioner you're going for assisted stretch act you warm up with a practitioner quietly a saying see is watching you warm up and giving the practitioner some insight in some feedback on your movement quality and some recommendations in insights.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're getting this personalized precision wellness and healthcare powered by a sensey but is delivered by the practitioner in the room so.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Think about what that does for acquisition and conversion of customers and engagement because you can see your getting better from assessment assessment we have gyms and boutique fitness studios also thinking about.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You know we talk about crawl walk run run is just cameras in the ceiling of the gym tracking everybody doing everything but crawl is station based experiences where you at least warm up with the gym or perhaps you know where the kettlebells are there's like some.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Connected experience and then we've got customers like boats you probably know about the done a fantastic job.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know making people aware of their product the boxing bag with a brain so they have a camera and you know a sensey you know the sensors in the bag that allows them to track where the bags hit hard the bag is here.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But you fuse that with it was a live cross or was an upper car around house kick or a knee I'm getting into it just telling you about.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm now you can imagine a whole gamified experience of what techniques you through and so now that leaderboard on the wall it you know isn't just your heart rate zone and what heart rate zone you were in.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're competing against the people in the room and I don't want to steal mirror was thunder because he's got so many plans for what happens when you game if I connected boxing experience.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He's just getting started but I think that's a great example of.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You can either go into a box and club with a bunch of old ever last bags can they're creaking and stinky gloves that everyone is cool on and these are the jive values to love training and.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you going to a bout studio when it's a.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: A calm you know connected fitness experience that perhaps even people at home are participating in at the same time as people in this studio that's a great example of what the future of in person fitness looks like.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: When you bring digital and tech like it's sensing.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think about this often like if I was going to open another GM what would I do you know now obviously where I live that has to bear some sort of influence over it but if I had you know maybe a little more population I think I would go with a very high tech.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Low foot prints you know high level of educated like I only have a small amount of staff they're very well trained right using things like tonal as like the string training it's very personalized having.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You know warm up in mobility room stretching modalities nice amenities right some some contrast therapy things like that just the basics fundamental things that I know are super healthy.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: For people yeah keeping a clean and neat and leveraging technology in a really major way and having it all personalized like kind of like what eGIM does right to is like you know they're building on this ecosystem all the different types of equipment.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's kind of direction it's going it's just it's still kind of it's in bits and pieces yet it hasn't really all come together so you know when you look at like the optimal fitness experience I'm sure you think about this like.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Two million in the morning see what like you know let's put 20 30 right it's a nice number if you look at like the future of coaching intelligence six years from now.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The optimal experience for the consumer the fitness consumer we're not going to talk about the other 80% right now because that's a whole another conversation we'll have time for but what does that look like in your mind I'm sure you have a vision.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I hope it looks less like Blade Runner and more like a look like 10 years ago I I love technology that fades to black that you just don't know what is there but it is there and it's elevated near experience so.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I don't want to walk into a gym or walk into fitness studio and it's like super eye tag you know things can turn in and scan in me and you know yeah that's almost distopying.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But I want the by boxing black bag I want the tonal I want that so I'm in our upper ability I want.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I know listen if I fast forward I'm going to future cast for you know always dangerous so let's just have fun with it but will we all be carrying smart phones around in our pockets in 10 15 20 years time no.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the mobile operators know that already they're already recognizing there will be something we wear on our face that won't be something we keep in our pocket.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: There's our interaction with the world so whether that smart glasses or you know I had the credible experience some years ago of using module vision of kind of smart contact lens with a screen on it so you know.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also believe in the world of just every surface with you know when I was at Microsoft we had these incredible we literally had a house in the middle of an office building and redman but you'd like open this front door and certainly you were at a house.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm living room in the kitchen and a dating room and called it the home of the future awesome branding and we just had all this cool tech in there and one of the things was light bulbs that had Microsoft connect in them so any light fix jar could now be something they could project onto the surface and.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: track your interaction with the surface so I think about that a lot as well is like you know we won't necessarily have.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know thousand dollar fitness mirrors on every single wall but we use the wall that we already have to become a surface for an erection so.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I think interaction just disappears and becomes what we call invisible compute saying but power by power by AI so yeah I I hope the gym of the future doesn't look too much different the gym of today.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is the mood with technology that's you know wraps the experience around us awesome awesome.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Last question for you Steven is people are listening to this within the industry how can we help you help bring you help us and say what what do you what would you like to hear from people about appreciate the question talk to us.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just keep it as simple as that you know we are we're deeply passionate about technology is the DNA of the team is we've all.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And especially in the leadership of the team we've all been in the tech industry for 23 years I don't many I don't speak about this very off I'd told me being interviewed but my CTO is the introver.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: He built a speed track ignition company that he took public in London movement recognition is very knowledge is to speak track ignition.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think my co-founder Ross you know he was a hardware engineer chip designaries put like 80 plus chips into market with teams for yeah if you want to I phone and iPads a Samsung Galaxy gear you had a blackberry probably on the project that Ross has a chip inside.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've got deep tech DNA and the team and so we think a lot about tech were super passionate about coaching like we've coached compared to coached our entire lives and so we have a deep passion for how important it is to pass that on to as many people as possible and allowing more people to be coached.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I've spent the last 10 years of our life in this industry thinking about movement recognition and then AI and so how can people help us like last by your coffee and let us listen and understand the challenges you're facing and let us share to point of view on how we think we can help and you know the the last thing I would say is you know probably by the end of the year we're going to be a place where we have a customer a month like we have an enterprise customer a month coming on board with the same seat and that virtue is cycle.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll actually have in customers as opposed to just having a website is customers tell you exactly what they need and there's lots more customers that look just like them.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But they don't tell you what they need until you've developed that deep trust of delivering for them right and so I don't underestimate the privilege position that we're in that we now have an incredible portfolio of customers who are being very open and transparent and honest with us about the problems that they need to solve.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And how some of them we can help them solve and some of them we can introduce them to others we can help them solve but we'd love to just share that you know with the reason and without reaching any confidentiality share the general trends of how this industry gets better because.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think at the end of the day, we're all more about by exactly the same thing we all want to get more people moving.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We all want to help more people unlock their potential and all of us like you know that've been coaches.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We realize like our little tiny dead in the universe is like if we can coach people the physical skills that we have there's somebody coach us we can give something to them that will hopefully.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the most important thing is that we have the ability to do the same impact on their life that are that's what I say and see is what the word say means is.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you eat to pass on those skills so yeah I just how can you help last by your call for.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it and I would encourage people to follow you on LinkedIn you put a lot of really good content really interesting perspectives and I always enjoy our conversations whenever we meet especially in real life really.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good time. So people want to get a whole few besides LinkedIners are where you like them to go.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you could guess my email address and the RP so go for it.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, but yeah LinkedIn is by far the best way to connect with us.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for the update here.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say that we're going to be doing the same thing.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always a fun conversation and I promise it will be four and a half years until we do the next one.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome. We'll do another one next year.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason, gentlemen Steven Webster.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, sir.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, wait don't leave yet.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: This is your host Eric Malzone and I hope you enjoyed this episode of future feminist.

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[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me.

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[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone and this is the feature of fitness.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a great day.