Mike Robertson - Modern Coaching Principles

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[00:02:06] Mike Robertson, welcome to the future of fitness, man.

[00:02:08] Hey, thanks for having me, dude.

[00:02:10] Pleasure to be on.

[00:02:11] Excited to chat with you again.

[00:02:12] Always a good time.

[00:02:13] Yeah.

[00:02:14] The future of fitness here as in, there's the technology advancements and things

[00:02:17] like that and investments raised and all that.

[00:02:20] But really where the rubber meets the road is coaching.

[00:02:24] Still, we can have great apps.

[00:02:26] So what are they trying to do?

[00:02:27] They're trying to replicate coaching.

[00:02:29] Right?

[00:02:30] So it's still how we motivate people and how we create change and I think it's a really

[00:02:33] powerful thing.

[00:02:34] And you, man, have 23 years now of experience in the fitness industry.

[00:02:40] You got me beat there.

[00:02:41] That's for sure.

[00:02:43] You are the founder of Robertson Training Systems.

[00:02:46] You have a great podcast.

[00:02:47] I was looking through it over the past few weeks in preparation but the physical

[00:02:51] preparation podcast and you just celebrated over 400 episodes.

[00:02:54] So congratulations, man.

[00:02:55] It's a grind.

[00:02:56] And you also have coaching certifications.

[00:02:59] So there's a lot of depth to you, Mike.

[00:03:02] And maybe you could start off.

[00:03:03] There's a lot going on.

[00:03:04] Yeah.

[00:03:05] Give us your background, man.

[00:03:06] How would you kind of give your origin story?

[00:03:08] Yeah.

[00:03:09] So I always tell people, well look, first off, when you say 23 years and I start

[00:03:13] to realize I'm older than a lot of the people that I coach.

[00:03:15] Like I've been coaching longer than the people that I'm coaching have been alive.

[00:03:19] That makes me feel and sound really old.

[00:03:22] Luckily I don't feel that old on a regular basis.

[00:03:24] But yeah, been doing this since 2000.

[00:03:27] So 23 years in the game.

[00:03:29] And I always say, man, I've been like in every nook and cranny of the fitness

[00:03:33] industry, right?

[00:03:35] I did one-on-one.

[00:03:36] I've done small group.

[00:03:37] I've done large group training.

[00:03:39] I've worked in rehab, true personal training, sport performance training.

[00:03:43] Like basically whatever demographic you cater to and work with, I've

[00:03:47] probably been there at some point in time in my career.

[00:03:50] So I think that gives me a really unique perspective just on, you know, all the

[00:03:56] depths and all the different facets of our industry.

[00:03:59] And then the other piece too is I've always joked around, I feel like I

[00:04:01] lived this double life, right?

[00:04:02] Because I've got like the brick and mortar business.

[00:04:05] I've got the gym, IFAS, which Bill Hartman and I co-founded 15 years ago.

[00:04:09] So we've been doing that for quite some time.

[00:04:12] And then yeah, there's also like the content creation side of all this.

[00:04:15] So probably started that way before I should have.

[00:04:18] If we're being honest, you know, I started writing articles in 2001.

[00:04:22] I was still a master's degree student and just felt compelled to like give back.

[00:04:28] I don't know if it's like the teacher that's wired in my DNA.

[00:04:31] My dad was a professor for like 35 years, my mom taught course back writing.

[00:04:35] So I don't know if that's part of it, but I've just always felt compelled

[00:04:38] to share what I've learned.

[00:04:39] So I started writing articles in 2001, you know, did the whole

[00:04:44] T nation thing spoke on perform better in these big like seminar circuits.

[00:04:49] And then yeah, just I've always found ways to create content and give back.

[00:04:53] And now, you know, articles, podcasts, like you alluded to videos, courses,

[00:04:59] like I just do a little bit of everything.

[00:05:02] And maybe kind of like you have just got like a little bit of ADD that

[00:05:05] always keeps me going down these different rabbit holes.

[00:05:08] But yeah, I don't know.

[00:05:09] I just find that incredibly rewarding.

[00:05:10] Like I kind of check the box of working with people and the human

[00:05:14] interactions when I'm in the gym and then I get to go home and I get to leverage

[00:05:17] that and hopefully influence other trainers and coaches with the content that I create.

[00:05:21] Mike, I'm just curious what you said you started content too early possibly

[00:05:25] like why do you think that is because look, I didn't know what I didn't know.

[00:05:31] Right.

[00:05:32] Like, I mean, again, think of the timing in 2001.

[00:05:35] Basically your primary influences until the like the year or two before that

[00:05:40] because there was no T nation until like 1999.

[00:05:43] You know, it's muscle and fitness.

[00:05:44] It's flex.

[00:05:45] It's maybe the what I'd learned in my year of graduate study

[00:05:49] in the biomechanics lab at Ball State.

[00:05:51] So I didn't know what I didn't know and I didn't have enough

[00:05:53] practical experience at that time.

[00:05:54] I definitely didn't have enough reps as a coach.

[00:05:58] So it's always funny to look back and reflect on some of those old articles

[00:06:02] and just think, wow, OK, you can kind of put yourself in that mindset of

[00:06:06] this is where I was at.

[00:06:07] This is what I was thinking.

[00:06:08] But yeah, being able to reflect on that 20 some years later, pretty cool.

[00:06:12] Pretty cool. Yeah.

[00:06:13] Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:06:14] I mean, I think it's part of the journey though, right?

[00:06:16] Of creating content is like you.

[00:06:19] I always joke like I never want to go back and listen to my first 10 podcast episodes.

[00:06:23] I just don't write, you know, I have no interest, but they had to happen.

[00:06:26] Right. Yeah.

[00:06:26] This is part of the building break, you know, the bricks that you build

[00:06:29] the whole building with.

[00:06:30] And yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:06:32] And you've, you know, with all the populations that you work with, Mike,

[00:06:35] I mean, you know, I don't want to ask you like the Sophie's Choice question here,

[00:06:38] but I will like who do you have a do you have a favorite population

[00:06:42] you like working with as the pro athletes?

[00:06:44] Is it the Gen Pop?

[00:06:45] Is it, you know, 65 plus?

[00:06:47] Like who is it?

[00:06:48] Yeah. So at this point in time, I've really come full circle.

[00:06:51] Like I grew up loving basketball.

[00:06:53] Obviously, you can see the shirt, the I fast basketball shirt.

[00:06:56] Yep. In the hat.

[00:06:57] Man, I grew up and insert Indiana joke here, right?

[00:07:01] Because people here are like psycho about basketball.

[00:07:03] And that's how I was.

[00:07:05] Again, like mid nineties, there's no internet really video games are just becoming a thing.

[00:07:10] We had four channels where I grew up.

[00:07:12] So we didn't even have cable.

[00:07:14] And so I played a lot of basketball.

[00:07:15] I was obsessed with basketball and, you know, like most people, you realize,

[00:07:20] wow, I'm OK, like 511 with an average jump shot.

[00:07:23] I'm probably not going to play in college.

[00:07:25] I'm definitely not going to play professionally.

[00:07:27] So the next best thing is getting into coaching.

[00:07:30] And so I always figured, you know, I'm going to go work with basketball players.

[00:07:34] And again, that's where you like insert this long and winding road where I spend

[00:07:39] two years in the biomechanics lab at Ball State.

[00:07:41] I spent three years in Fort Wayne doing rehab.

[00:07:44] Another three years doing in home personal training before I ever get a sniff

[00:07:48] at getting back to like training basketball players again.

[00:07:51] But you know, over the last six to seven years,

[00:07:53] I'd like think we built a really solid basketball development program.

[00:07:56] And we got everything from like high school age kids that are trying

[00:07:59] to get the scholarship to, you know, elite players that are playing overseas.

[00:08:03] And then the NBA. So that's definitely the group that I'm most passionate about.

[00:08:08] But again, double life kind of talked about this like in the gym.

[00:08:12] That's who I train the most.

[00:08:13] But then when I do my online coaching, it's a lot of people that look

[00:08:16] and move like me, right?

[00:08:17] You know, 30s, 40s, 50s, maybe a little wear and tear on the tires

[00:08:22] and just trying to like play the longevity game.

[00:08:25] I think that's where so many of us are at right now.

[00:08:27] It's like, hey, feel pretty good for 45.

[00:08:29] But how can I feel this good 55 or 65?

[00:08:32] So that's kind of who I train online these days.

[00:08:34] But definitely if I could like just hone in and like 24 hours a day,

[00:08:38] just train basketball, I'd be pretty darn happy with it.

[00:08:40] Yeah, you know, it's an interesting segue.

[00:08:43] I want to talk about longevity.

[00:08:44] I think it is really popular.

[00:08:46] And you know, I'm gosh, man, just turned 47.

[00:08:49] And longevity is really on my mind, right?

[00:08:52] Is there want to be able to do the things that I love for a long time?

[00:08:54] I want to be able to help spam Peter at T.

[00:08:56] His book just came out.

[00:08:58] Star Ed came out with their book.

[00:08:59] You know, it's just everything longevity is like the topic.

[00:09:02] So when you when you look at the category

[00:09:06] right for lack of a better term of longevity training,

[00:09:09] you know, what what stands out?

[00:09:10] Like what is different about it?

[00:09:12] Do you think it's it's here to stay?

[00:09:14] Is it a trend of buzzword?

[00:09:16] Like, yeah, give me your overall thoughts.

[00:09:19] I do think it's a buzzword.

[00:09:21] And I think, you know, we are cresting the wave.

[00:09:25] But I think the wave is not going to fizzle out anytime soon.

[00:09:28] And I really feel like this is like just like a total mindset shift

[00:09:31] that we're seeing within our industry and just within human beings

[00:09:35] as in general, right?

[00:09:36] As medicines evolve, as training is hopefully evolving.

[00:09:39] And it's funny you asked this because literally last weekend,

[00:09:42] Luca, Joel and myself did like a virtual summit on this very topic

[00:09:47] because I think it's very top of mind.

[00:09:49] And from a training perspective, something that I've talked about

[00:09:53] for at least the last decade now is this idea of training like an athlete.

[00:09:56] And early on, I was like ridiculed for this, right?

[00:09:59] You know, like the internet trolls are like, oh, what are you going to do?

[00:10:02] Have grandma jump on a box and like, no, obviously not.

[00:10:07] But grandma Betty needs power development, right?

[00:10:09] She needs strength development.

[00:10:11] So when I talk about training like an athlete,

[00:10:14] I just think about creating a more well rounded human being.

[00:10:17] And you and I came up in a day and age where we were very influenced

[00:10:20] probably either by one of these two, either by bodybuilding

[00:10:23] magazines and bodybuilding training or powerlifting training,

[00:10:27] which was very strength focused.

[00:10:28] And so whenever you skew all of your training

[00:10:31] and all of your development in one direction,

[00:10:33] I liken it to a bike wheel, right?

[00:10:36] And then a perfect bike wheel, all the spokes are kind of even, right?

[00:10:39] You've got power, strength, conditioning, mobility.

[00:10:42] Well, now if you take that and you focus all your time

[00:10:45] and energy on one physical quality,

[00:10:46] well, now that bike wheel doesn't turn very well.

[00:10:49] So that's kind of what I'm alluding to here.

[00:10:51] You got to be more well rounded in your approach,

[00:10:53] and especially as you age, if you want to do powerlifting

[00:10:55] and get stupid strong or get super jacked when you're young,

[00:10:59] that's great. Right?

[00:11:00] I think we all have those phases and you need to go through that.

[00:11:03] But as we age and if we want to play the longevity game,

[00:11:05] you just got to be more well rounded in your physical development

[00:11:08] and your training needs to reflect that.

[00:11:10] When it comes to longevity training,

[00:11:12] where do you think if you use I've loved that analogy?

[00:11:15] Like if you look at the bike wheel and the spoke, like.

[00:11:18] Yep. What spokes are people ignoring the most?

[00:11:21] Well, again, maybe this is my bias,

[00:11:23] but I think strength is the one that always gets pushed the most

[00:11:27] with those other three getting kind of pushed to the side.

[00:11:30] Right? So power development, I think a lot of people

[00:11:33] either ignore or just forget about altogether conditioning.

[00:11:37] Thankfully for guys like Joel are pushing that and starting to show

[00:11:41] like, look, there's like a ton of research out there now

[00:11:43] that shows like improving your VO2 max

[00:11:45] is directly correlated to your lifespan.

[00:11:47] So how long you live?

[00:11:49] If you can increase your VO2 max direct correlation to your lifespan.

[00:11:52] So that's pretty cool, right?

[00:11:54] So conditioning and then mobility.

[00:11:55] It's just not like something you go in the gym

[00:11:57] and that most people are excited to do.

[00:12:00] There's just not that enthusiasm like, oh, man, I'm just going to go

[00:12:03] really get limber today.

[00:12:05] You know, most people aren't excited about that or, oh, man,

[00:12:08] I'm really going to get this great stretching session in

[00:12:10] before I go to bed. Like it's not sexy.

[00:12:12] It's not exciting.

[00:12:13] But if you can put more emphasis on some of those other facets

[00:12:16] of physical fitness, I think it really pays dividends in the long haul.

[00:12:19] Yeah. I mean, personally, the mobility and the stretching

[00:12:21] I freaking hate it.

[00:12:23] Right? Yeah. It just to me, it feels like a waste of time.

[00:12:25] I know it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Most guys do.

[00:12:27] It's like, like I feel like a lot of women for whatever reason.

[00:12:30] And again, this is just my perception

[00:12:33] and the people that I've trained.

[00:12:34] Mobility training is much better received from a lot of the females

[00:12:37] that I've coached over the years.

[00:12:38] Like intuitively, it makes sense.

[00:12:40] A lot of the guys, I don't know if it's just the way they're wired.

[00:12:43] If it's their bias towards the weight room

[00:12:45] or getting strong, it's just a lot harder to kind of push that envelope.

[00:12:49] Generally, they become a lot more receptive if they've had an injury.

[00:12:52] And I hate that it comes to that, you know, but you tweak your back

[00:12:56] or you do something to your knee all of a sudden, you're like, oh,

[00:13:00] OK, maybe I need to put a little bit more emphasis

[00:13:02] on this whole mobility thing and making sure my body moves

[00:13:05] and feels good first.

[00:13:06] Yeah. Yeah. I know.

[00:13:08] I know the choir.

[00:13:11] I know. Yeah.

[00:13:13] It's just me self-reflecting.

[00:13:16] You know, the power thing is really interesting in longevity.

[00:13:19] And I was as I was telling this morning, I was monitoring a panel

[00:13:22] and not a panel because it was just Sam Miller from Proteus.

[00:13:24] But you know, the stats he threw out there was that,

[00:13:27] you know, we lose as we age 10 percent of our power every 10 years.

[00:13:31] Right. Yeah.

[00:13:31] And, you know, and he mentioned that's a huge deal for longevity,

[00:13:35] but it really get into why.

[00:13:36] Like, I mean, what are your insights into why power is important

[00:13:40] for for aging well?

[00:13:41] Yeah. Well, first of all, like when we talk about falls,

[00:13:45] a big part of falls comes from one balance, right?

[00:13:48] And then number two, that ability to stop and break yourself effectively.

[00:13:52] That's a power related function.

[00:13:54] So that's something that I never thought of it in that way.

[00:13:57] But like you can like reposition your foot and stop yourself

[00:14:01] at nothing else, you can at least break that fall.

[00:14:03] So it's a little bit less traumatic, right?

[00:14:06] But I think when you just look at it from a

[00:14:09] I don't want to say evolutionary, but kind of like from a cost perspective,

[00:14:13] like Joel and I were talking about this.

[00:14:15] If you think about it, like your 2B and 2X fibers are the most

[00:14:17] metabolically costly, right?

[00:14:20] So if you're not using them and if you're not training them,

[00:14:23] your body's like, oh, well, these are like kind of a pain in the backside,

[00:14:27] right? Because I have to like fuel them and oxygenate them.

[00:14:30] And like if they're not doing anything and you're not training it,

[00:14:32] you're not getting what you need to out of it.

[00:14:34] So your body is just going to be like, OK, I'm not going to worry about those.

[00:14:37] I'll focus on these other fibers that are more efficient and more effective in nature.

[00:14:42] So when you start to think of it from that perspective,

[00:14:45] it's like your body is always doing this like cost-benefit ratio.

[00:14:49] If you're not using those muscles, why supply it with oxygen

[00:14:52] and nutrients and all of those things?

[00:14:54] And so when Joel explained it to me like that, I'm like, oh,

[00:14:56] like that really makes sense.

[00:14:57] And then if I'm trying to explain to my clients,

[00:15:00] they probably don't want to hear that kind of explanation.

[00:15:02] It doesn't resonate with them.

[00:15:04] So when I'm talking to a client, it's like, look, it's just very simple.

[00:15:07] It's the use it or lose it phenomenon, right?

[00:15:09] If you're not training specifically for this,

[00:15:12] you're not going to get better at it.

[00:15:13] It's like you wouldn't never go in the weight room and strength train

[00:15:15] and expect to be stronger.

[00:15:17] So you strength train to get stronger.

[00:15:18] If you want to be more powerful or more explosive,

[00:15:21] you need to train for power.

[00:15:22] And again, I always try and explain it like this as well.

[00:15:26] It's not just about going in the gym and like you're 50 years old.

[00:15:29] You haven't trained power in 25 years.

[00:15:31] You're not going to go in there and do box jumps or start sprinting day one.

[00:15:36] There's a progression to it.

[00:15:37] But starting to train with that intent in mind is where it really starts

[00:15:42] to kind of get you back in the game, so to speak.

[00:15:44] Yeah. And it's power is something that most people don't know how to train.

[00:15:49] You know, let's put this way.

[00:15:51] They probably don't even know the definition of power

[00:15:54] and why it differs from strength, right?

[00:15:55] So that's we're getting someone who has a really good program

[00:15:58] where, you know, at least the ability to assess and reassess is really powerful.

[00:16:03] Yeah, for sure.

[00:16:05] So like I will always try and explain it like this.

[00:16:08] You need to start with like very low amplitude

[00:16:12] and or stationary activities first.

[00:16:15] So one of the ways I'll describe it is I call them the micro ballistics.

[00:16:20] I haven't heard people use this term before,

[00:16:21] but instead of doing like a max effort box jump, right?

[00:16:24] Your your tissues aren't prepared for that if you haven't done that in 20 years.

[00:16:27] So what do you start with?

[00:16:28] Maybe it's just jumping rope or maybe if jumping rope is too much,

[00:16:31] it's holding on to a band, right?

[00:16:33] So getting some band assistance, like tethering it to like

[00:16:37] a chin up bar or something like that and then doing little mini jumps there.

[00:16:40] Right. So just getting like your feet, your calves,

[00:16:42] your Achilles used to doing those plyometric actions again.

[00:16:45] Same thing. Maybe it's upper body.

[00:16:47] It's just like lightly throwing a ball, you know,

[00:16:49] a four pound medicine ball against the wall, catching it and receiving it.

[00:16:53] So it's just getting those tissues prepared

[00:16:55] to utilize like that stretch shortening cycle again, because

[00:16:58] when you're in the weight room, you just don't really use it all that often, right?

[00:17:01] Like it's there, but not to the same extent

[00:17:03] because generally lifting is more slow and controlled.

[00:17:06] So when you're getting back to more of these like dynamic explosive type actions,

[00:17:09] you just got to start with really low level activities first before you ramp up.

[00:17:13] You know, another great example would just be something like a kettlebell swing.

[00:17:17] Nobody says like if your knees are shot, right?

[00:17:19] Or you've torn your Achilles or whatever, you can still do a kettlebell swing

[00:17:23] and you're still training power.

[00:17:25] You're just not necessarily leaving the ground.

[00:17:26] So it really comes down to being more creative in the way you set up the program

[00:17:30] and then following this like really smooth, seamless progression,

[00:17:34] meeting them where they're at to start

[00:17:36] and then building them up to wherever they want to go.

[00:17:38] Awesome. You know, one of the things that I remember when you, Joel,

[00:17:42] Jameson and I recorded the Morpheus Radio podcast,

[00:17:46] which was a short live project, but really fun nonetheless.

[00:17:49] The we talked a lot about breathing

[00:17:51] and that was something that Joel really leaned on you for your expertise

[00:17:56] and what you've done in that realm.

[00:17:58] And breathing now obviously has become a little bit more popular over the past few years.

[00:18:01] There's been a couple of big books that come out, things like that.

[00:18:03] But give us some insights from the base level.

[00:18:06] Like why is breathing so important to you when you're working with your

[00:18:10] your athletes and your clients and everybody that you work with

[00:18:12] and how maybe give us a high level of like how you incorporate it?

[00:18:16] Yeah, great question.

[00:18:18] So I think two of the things that make

[00:18:21] maybe the programming style that I use or Bill

[00:18:23] or just the way that we've kind of cultivated at IFAST unique is

[00:18:27] we almost book into your session with some sort of breathing activity.

[00:18:31] And it's not true across the board 100 percent,

[00:18:34] but in most cases, we'll use a breathing activity pre-workout.

[00:18:38] And the goal there is to optimize your body position.

[00:18:41] So I just think of this as a more sophisticated, sophisticated approach.

[00:18:45] Like if you remember back in the day, we do like stretching and strengthening.

[00:18:49] Right. I'm going to do this hip flexor stretch and then I'll do a glute bridge

[00:18:52] and you're trying to control pelvic position.

[00:18:54] Well, maybe that works, but we found that breathing activities

[00:18:58] are a little bit more effective for helping cement and dial in a good posture

[00:19:02] or a good position.

[00:19:03] So if you've got that client or athlete that's got like that big

[00:19:06] anterior pelvic tilt or they got that big curve in their lower back,

[00:19:10] maybe we're going to do some breathing exercises to try and get their hips

[00:19:13] back underneath them, right?

[00:19:15] Create a little bit of space in their lower back so that when they go

[00:19:18] into their training session, they're in a better body position to start.

[00:19:21] So I think pre-workout, we're trying to optimize like their body position.

[00:19:25] And then at the end of the session, I'm not so worried about biomechanics,

[00:19:29] but I'm definitely thinking more like autonomic nervous system, right?

[00:19:32] So we've got fight or flight.

[00:19:33] You probably just lived there the last 60, 75 minutes

[00:19:36] because you've been crushing weights and doing sprints and all the things

[00:19:39] you do in a gym.

[00:19:40] So to try and come back down and kickstart the parasympathetic drive,

[00:19:45] we're going to do some recovery breathing.

[00:19:46] And generally that's just three to five minutes.

[00:19:48] You know, it could be something simple like crocodile breathing or it can be even

[00:19:52] easier, like just going and putting your booty up against a wall, put your legs

[00:19:56] up, right?

[00:19:57] So they're resting on the wall, just kind of cover your eyes and show

[00:20:00] out and breathe for three to five minutes.

[00:20:01] But it's that idea of feeling good before you walk out of the gym

[00:20:06] and like kickstarting that parasympathetic process.

[00:20:08] So you really start to think more about recovery and getting ready

[00:20:12] to recover for that next session.

[00:20:14] So that's kind of the way I book in workouts.

[00:20:16] And I feel like it works really well for us.

[00:20:19] Yeah, I love it.

[00:20:19] I've been doing more of the towards the end, right?

[00:20:22] And I think this is something anybody who does CrossFit, like listen very carefully.

[00:20:25] Don't just like throw yourself on the floor or down some stairs in a workout

[00:20:30] and then just leave and get in your car.

[00:20:31] Like you really need to down regulate in that.

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:35] Man, those that's like some actually some become some of the

[00:20:37] favorite parts of my day is just down regulating for three to five minutes.

[00:20:41] You know, I mean, it's amazing quality.

[00:20:44] It's amazing.

[00:20:44] And there's been, there's been days when I've worked in the team

[00:20:47] environment where I can tell a group coming in is just smashed.

[00:20:51] And we may literally we'll get on the rollers.

[00:20:54] We may do a little bit of a dynamic stretch or static stretching session.

[00:20:58] Get them loose.

[00:20:59] And then I'll literally just close, you know, close the doors, lights out

[00:21:03] three to five minutes and you'll be shocked.

[00:21:05] Like there were days I'd have half the team asleep in three to five

[00:21:09] minutes because they could just really shut down and relax.

[00:21:11] And I felt like we got more out of that day than had we gone in the gym

[00:21:15] and tried to crush them.

[00:21:16] So it's just shifting that mindset and just realizing, OK, where is this person

[00:21:19] at today going to be a good training day?

[00:21:21] Can we push the needle a little bit or do we need to emphasize recovery

[00:21:24] and maybe think more about the next session versus today's session?

[00:21:28] And are you when we talk about recovery, it's a favorite topic

[00:21:31] of mine, obviously, Jules as well.

[00:21:34] How do you, besides just the intangible intuition as a coach

[00:21:40] after 23 years, right?

[00:21:41] But is there any other technologies or, you know, even, I guess,

[00:21:46] just basic note taking, right?

[00:21:48] Something like that that you use.

[00:21:50] How do you how do you engage recovery?

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:54] Originally very subjective because we didn't have the technology

[00:21:58] to kind of meet us where we were at.

[00:21:59] And I did the whole like, you know, soreness, sleep, mood.

[00:22:03] I've done those types of things in like an Excel document.

[00:22:07] I think there's there's merit to that if you're in a

[00:22:09] like shoestring budget type environment, you can absolutely do that.

[00:22:13] And if you've got good buy-in and good relationships, I think that can work.

[00:22:16] It can be powerful.

[00:22:18] You can see now I've got a couple pieces of tech on me, right?

[00:22:21] As we speak, I've got the ORA ring, which for me was huge.

[00:22:26] Working split shifts for who knows how long my sleep was absolute garbage.

[00:22:31] And so I needed a form of accountability and just sleep tracking, right?

[00:22:35] And we know like these aren't perfect, right?

[00:22:38] They're not true sleep trackers.

[00:22:39] They may be more proxies, but if you have something, right, and you're going

[00:22:42] to be consistent about it, I think it does help.

[00:22:44] So at least I get feedback on how much I slept approximations for deep and rim

[00:22:49] sleep. That's where I think that's very helpful.

[00:22:52] Morpheus for me taking my HRV tracking like resting heart rate, tracking HRV.

[00:23:00] Just being able to do that longitudinally, I think can be very, very valuable.

[00:23:04] And you know, I've had certain athletes that I have had use that over the years.

[00:23:10] And that's always very eye opening for them, right?

[00:23:12] Because it just shifts their emphasis.

[00:23:14] Their natural instinct is just I have to train harder.

[00:23:17] I've got to train more.

[00:23:18] And so now when you can start to show them, look, there's like a yin to the yang.

[00:23:22] You've got to be able to shut off as well as you can turn it on.

[00:23:25] And that's with high performers.

[00:23:27] Honestly, that's the harder part of the equation, right?

[00:23:29] Like the drive in the output is not the issue.

[00:23:32] It's more, hey, okay.

[00:23:33] Now you're done working out.

[00:23:35] But when you go lay in bed and your brain and your body are still telling you,

[00:23:38] it's time to work out like that's an issue.

[00:23:40] And that's when you start to see like the compromise recovery.

[00:23:42] And I think some of the issues more of the wear and tear that you see over the

[00:23:46] course of a career because they just not recovering as well as they should.

[00:23:50] Yeah. You know, it's so fascinating.

[00:23:53] There's still a lot of people who are like anti wearable.

[00:23:55] They're like, oh no, no, it does more harm good if it, you know,

[00:23:58] screws up people's psyches and it makes them.

[00:24:00] I'm like, that's that's not a tech issue.

[00:24:03] Right? That's just that's just a relationship with the technology issue.

[00:24:07] And I've been using all types of wearables for like five, six, seven years now,

[00:24:11] maybe more or less than that.

[00:24:12] Like what was the first HRB when we had to lay in bed?

[00:24:16] There was like the ifly.

[00:24:18] I remember that and then Joel came out with BioForce.

[00:24:21] I don't know. What was that eight, nine, ten years ago?

[00:24:23] I don't know. It's been a while.

[00:24:25] I think it was yeah, it was like two. Yeah, it was a while ago.

[00:24:27] Anyway, I've been using this for a long time.

[00:24:29] And it's just insights, right?

[00:24:30] It's like you have to understand that it's not, you know, if it makes you anxious

[00:24:34] because you have a bad recovery score, right?

[00:24:37] Then deal deal with that.

[00:24:40] It's not it's not the tech.

[00:24:42] Where do you stand on like people are still a little bit against it?

[00:24:45] This is such a great point.

[00:24:47] And I actually worked with a nutrition coach a couple of years ago.

[00:24:51] Shout out to my guy, Trevor.

[00:24:53] But he gave me this great insight towards the scale

[00:24:57] that I think works incredibly well here to like wearable tech.

[00:25:00] And he said your goal is to become like emotionally untethered

[00:25:04] to what the scale says, right?

[00:25:07] Because let's say you're trying to like cut weight and naturally you're like,

[00:25:10] oh, yeah, I should be down today.

[00:25:12] I should be down today.

[00:25:13] So then if the scale is up, well, now you're like emotionally charged

[00:25:16] and you're like, no, you know, and you need to untether yourself from that.

[00:25:20] Like just be objective about it. If you're up, OK, reflect.

[00:25:23] What did I do different yesterday?

[00:25:25] Well, my macros were great, but you know, I had more salt

[00:25:28] or I drink a bunch of water.

[00:25:29] Like maybe it's just water weight when you can be objective about it.

[00:25:32] Then it's way easier.

[00:25:33] And I think wearables and tech are very similar, right?

[00:25:36] Like if you're going to let it drive you emotionally, that's a problem

[00:25:39] versus being able to step back and just be objective about it.

[00:25:42] OK. Oh, wow.

[00:25:43] My recovery is trash today.

[00:25:44] Why is that?

[00:25:45] What did I do yesterday or the last couple of days that have driven this

[00:25:48] number down? And so I think that's the way you have to look at it

[00:25:51] is just becoming emotionally unattached or untethered to the score

[00:25:56] and just look at it more as like this unbiased.

[00:25:59] It's not lying to you, right?

[00:26:00] It doesn't have emotions.

[00:26:01] It's not trying to make you feel bad about yourself.

[00:26:04] So like just get away from that mindset

[00:26:06] and just how can I use this to make better decisions and better choices

[00:26:09] in the future? I think if you can do that, then ultimately

[00:26:12] you're going to be way happier and way more successful using tech.

[00:26:15] Yeah. You know, this brings up an interesting question for you.

[00:26:18] It's like if you had to give it a percentage right out of 100,

[00:26:23] great coaching is what percentage psychology?

[00:26:28] Wow. People may be unhappy with this.

[00:26:30] If I had to give you a number like 60 percent,

[00:26:34] like 60 percent, like like it's way higher than most people think.

[00:26:38] I'm blanking on the guy's name now, Irish guy.

[00:26:41] But I read a lot of his stuff for John Kiley, very interesting guy.

[00:26:44] And and he talks about just like the biochemistry that goes on when

[00:26:49] if a client likes you, right?

[00:26:51] They walk into the space like their biochemistry is set

[00:26:55] for them to have a great session, to have a great workout

[00:26:57] just because they like you, right?

[00:26:59] Versus the opposite.

[00:27:00] We've all had that person where like we just get this visceral response

[00:27:04] and like our guard is up the second we're in the same room as them.

[00:27:07] So it might be as high as like 50, 60 percent

[00:27:10] because it sets the stage for us to have a great workout, right?

[00:27:14] And so that's why for me, I always used to preach this to our coaches,

[00:27:18] like the relationships and the culture that we have at our gym is so important.

[00:27:22] There's another buzzword, right?

[00:27:23] Culture everybody talks about culture now.

[00:27:25] Oh, yeah. But it is true.

[00:27:27] It is true.

[00:27:28] And it's it's more intangible than people give it credit for.

[00:27:31] But like some of the things that we always try to espouse

[00:27:33] were the second somebody walks in the gym door, right?

[00:27:36] Because it's like this long, deep space.

[00:27:39] Second they walk within five seconds.

[00:27:41] Hey, Jim, how are you doing today?

[00:27:43] Right? Acknowledging them the second they walk in the second

[00:27:45] they come back into more like the training space where we're working with people.

[00:27:50] There's some form of like nonsexual physical contact, right?

[00:27:53] So like a hug, a high five, like, yo, what's up, man?

[00:27:57] How are you like just connecting and greeting that person?

[00:28:00] Be and it became like a lot of it came out of this.

[00:28:03] This research and the stuff that John Kiley talked about because I was like, look,

[00:28:07] if this is this impactful, why would we not set the stage

[00:28:10] for this person right from the get go?

[00:28:12] Because then immediately they're going to be more receptive

[00:28:14] and more responsive to the workout that we've created for them.

[00:28:17] It's not saying that the programming and the coaching aren't important,

[00:28:21] but it's like the soil that you plant the seeds in, right?

[00:28:24] Like if you're planting it, they strip all the topsoil here, right?

[00:28:27] Like if you're planting in clay, it's not going to be nearly as successful

[00:28:31] as if you've got like this nice layer of topsoil, good weather.

[00:28:35] Like you're just setting the stage for more success

[00:28:37] when you've got those great relationships early on.

[00:28:40] It's the thing about it.

[00:28:41] And I'm going back to an interview I did with Jack Thomas from The Fit Guide

[00:28:46] and what they're doing.

[00:28:46] It's, you know, starting in Asia, but they'll expand to US where they,

[00:28:50] you know, it's kind of like a Michelin guide for gyms, right?

[00:28:53] Where you get, you know, very valuable feedback.

[00:28:57] It's not just a couple of stars on Google.

[00:28:58] It's like actually how are you doing?

[00:29:00] They have, you know, mystery shoppers come through.

[00:29:02] Oh yeah.

[00:29:03] And these are the little things, right?

[00:29:05] That cost you nothing.

[00:29:06] Like you're not investing in some piece of technology.

[00:29:09] You're not buying more equipment.

[00:29:11] You're not repainting whatever you know, you're not doing.

[00:29:13] It's just these little things that like calling them by their name, right?

[00:29:16] Asking them how their day is, right?

[00:29:18] Giving a pat on the shoulder.

[00:29:19] Like these things, like, and they talk about almost all of these things

[00:29:22] that you're mentioning now, it's free.

[00:29:24] It's easy and it makes a world of difference for everything you do,

[00:29:29] not just from like, OK, them having a great experience

[00:29:32] and then they'll retain longer, maybe they'll refer more.

[00:29:34] But it's actually the results that you get for them in the programs.

[00:29:37] Yeah, so much of it is just like it just comes back to investing

[00:29:40] in people versus stuff.

[00:29:42] Sure, right?

[00:29:42] Like, so I've got two little kids at home.

[00:29:45] You know, if I'm like never around and I never show up

[00:29:48] and I'm tuned out when I'm around them and I just try and throw stuff at them.

[00:29:51] Like maybe that works at the start.

[00:29:52] But over time they're like, dude, this guy sucks versus, you know,

[00:29:57] hey, like let's just go do something like investing time in people

[00:30:00] and like genuinely caring about them said there's there's no cost

[00:30:04] associated with that, right?

[00:30:05] Other than being a good human being and caring about other human beings.

[00:30:08] But that's arguably the most important thing you can do to really build

[00:30:12] a successful relationship with that person and by extension,

[00:30:16] a really successful business.

[00:30:17] It's it's mind blowing to a lot of people because everybody's

[00:30:20] oh, we just need this piece of tech or I'll invest this or buy this.

[00:30:23] And like maybe that helps move the needle a little bit.

[00:30:26] But like it's like the one or two percent versus like the 80

[00:30:29] percent that you could focus on over here that cost you.

[00:30:31] Yeah, beautifully said.

[00:30:32] So bandwagon's right?

[00:30:34] I go through your content and I really, I really enjoy there's it's really easy

[00:30:40] right to get on on these bandwagon's as a coach or an industry professional

[00:30:45] protection practitioner or whatever you want to call it.

[00:30:47] You know, when you're when you're raising the flag on bandwagon's

[00:30:51] maybe give us some anecdotes as well as like things you've seen come and go.

[00:30:55] People who have jumped on bandwagon's and maybe they regret it later on,

[00:30:59] you know, certain things and maybe how do you know if it's not a bandwagon

[00:31:01] anything, maybe it's a legit tool or resource.

[00:31:05] Like give us some insights onto that because this is a really fun talk.

[00:31:09] Oh my gosh, yes.

[00:31:11] Well, look, I've been around long enough to see like a lot of these things

[00:31:16] come like full circle, right?

[00:31:17] So like here's a great, great one.

[00:31:20] When I was coming up, if you walked into a weight room,

[00:31:22] there's maybe two racks over in the corner.

[00:31:25] There's a dumbbell section and then there's just a wall of machines, right?

[00:31:28] Like every selectorized machine known to me.

[00:31:31] And then we went through this phase for like at least 15 years where machines

[00:31:35] are ridiculed, right?

[00:31:36] Machines have no use.

[00:31:37] Oh, I hang my jacket on it and that's the only use that it gets.

[00:31:40] And now we're coming full circle again to where people are finding

[00:31:44] uses and applications for machines and selectorized training.

[00:31:47] So I think most things go through this lifecycle.

[00:31:51] It becomes really evident when you stick around long enough,

[00:31:55] you start to see them, right?

[00:31:56] So let me give you another example I think is incredibly relevant.

[00:31:59] Kettlebells.

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[00:33:27] That's podcastcollective.io.

[00:33:33] Okay, so when I first started training, there were barbells

[00:33:38] and they were dumbbells.

[00:33:39] And that was really about it.

[00:33:41] And then mid-2000s, you know who?

[00:33:43] Papel comes on.

[00:33:44] And I love Papel.

[00:33:45] He's an amazing human being, an amazing instructor, a wealth

[00:33:48] of knowledge.

[00:33:48] He comes on and he introduces the kettlebell.

[00:33:51] Right now people have all kinds of thoughts about this

[00:33:53] because sometimes it's the marketing of the tool that's

[00:33:57] the most annoying, right?

[00:33:58] Like there was a lot of marketing and a lot of height behind

[00:34:00] that.

[00:34:01] But if you talk to Papel about training and about the

[00:34:04] kettlebell, I mean, we talked one day at one of the RK

[00:34:06] season, he's like, look, yes, I'm passionate about

[00:34:09] kettlebell training, but kettlebell training is just a

[00:34:11] vehicle to teach people how to strength train and move

[00:34:13] more efficiently.

[00:34:14] And I was like, that is brilliant.

[00:34:16] Right.

[00:34:17] So what I found in a lot of cases is if you go to the

[00:34:21] person at the top of the food chain, they're like super

[00:34:25] like normal and realistic about like how to use the tool.

[00:34:28] It's the people at Noture 2 below that don't have like

[00:34:31] that experience and that perspective that just

[00:34:33] becomes zealous.

[00:34:34] Right.

[00:34:34] And so like the kettlebell is the only tool ever used

[00:34:38] ever again.

[00:34:38] And like, you know, they're so like blinded and myopic

[00:34:41] about the way they approach these things.

[00:34:43] You know, those are the people I think ultimately

[00:34:45] turn people off to an entire system.

[00:34:48] But I mean like, let's think about it, right?

[00:34:50] So we've had like, selecturized training.

[00:34:52] We've had functional movement.

[00:34:54] I'll put that in air quotes because good luck defining

[00:34:56] functional movement.

[00:34:57] There's been kettlebells.

[00:34:59] There's mobility training.

[00:35:01] Right.

[00:35:01] Honestly, it's not a fad, but if you want to talk

[00:35:03] about something that's really hot right now, probably

[00:35:05] a good thing, zone two cardio, right?

[00:35:07] How long has Joel been talking about cardiac

[00:35:09] output 15 years, but now let's just rebranded

[00:35:13] zone two.

[00:35:13] Now everybody's talking about zone two.

[00:35:15] So you just see these waves.

[00:35:18] Right.

[00:35:18] And I think ultimately the longer you do this, the

[00:35:20] more you rise, there's probably value and merit

[00:35:23] in all of these things.

[00:35:24] Right.

[00:35:24] Like there's value and merit in machine training

[00:35:27] for certain people.

[00:35:28] There's value and merit in kettlebell training,

[00:35:30] in mobility training, conditioning, zone two.

[00:35:32] It comes down to, okay, what can I pull out

[00:35:35] of this?

[00:35:36] And where does it fit into my own philosophy?

[00:35:38] And where does it apply to the specific person

[00:35:41] standing in front of me?

[00:35:41] And I think once you can start to like pull

[00:35:44] these pieces out, and that takes time too.

[00:35:46] Right.

[00:35:47] You just got to have some time in the game.

[00:35:49] You got to grow a filter, hopefully not get too

[00:35:51] callous and jaded.

[00:35:52] I'm trying to stay away from that.

[00:35:54] You know, I don't want to be the old crotchety

[00:35:56] strength coach, but like again, just figuring out,

[00:35:59] okay, what's valuable or impactful from this

[00:36:02] trend?

[00:36:03] Right.

[00:36:04] What can I pull out?

[00:36:05] And then where does it fit into my philosophy

[00:36:06] and how am I going to use it to make my

[00:36:08] training and my programs better?

[00:36:10] Yeah.

[00:36:11] You know, it reminds me to like you've had

[00:36:14] these things that have been around forever,

[00:36:15] right? And sometimes it takes someone to like

[00:36:17] repackage it.

[00:36:18] Like you mentioned zone two, like rebranding

[00:36:20] it as zone two and maybe now you can sell it.

[00:36:22] Right.

[00:36:23] Like yeah, a couple of friends of mine are doing

[00:36:25] the whole 30.

[00:36:25] I was like, oh, you're doing paleo.

[00:36:26] They're like, no, we're doing whole 30.

[00:36:28] Like, but no, you're doing, you're doing

[00:36:31] you're doing paleo.

[00:36:32] Yeah.

[00:36:33] Yeah.

[00:36:33] And then I started explaining like, no,

[00:36:35] they brilliantly took a concept rebranded

[00:36:38] it, right?

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:39] Trademarked it starting selling products

[00:36:41] and books and all this and all of a sudden

[00:36:43] paleo became a brand.

[00:36:44] Yeah.

[00:36:45] Then you get someone like Rob Wolf, right?

[00:36:46] Who's been around the paleo world forever

[00:36:48] and he's like, you know, private conversation

[00:36:50] with Rob, he's probably maybe kicking himself

[00:36:53] a little bit in the butt for not having

[00:36:54] like rebranded, you know, under something

[00:36:56] different, right?

[00:36:56] So that I think we see that cycle come

[00:36:58] come and go as well.

[00:36:59] Absolutely.

[00:37:00] Well, look behind every like truly

[00:37:03] like valuable trend, there's a marketer

[00:37:05] that's willing to like push it to the

[00:37:07] end of the degree and exploit it.

[00:37:08] And I think ultimately that's where most

[00:37:11] of us get turned off by stuff, right?

[00:37:13] Like the whole.

[00:37:14] Okay, I'm not going to.

[00:37:15] Maybe.

[00:37:15] Okay, maybe I should.

[00:37:16] I'm going to say it.

[00:37:17] The knees over toes, right?

[00:37:18] Like is there value to putting knees

[00:37:20] over toes?

[00:37:20] Absolutely.

[00:37:21] Right.

[00:37:22] That guy has made an entire brand

[00:37:24] around this idea of driving your

[00:37:26] knees over your toes.

[00:37:27] Like you could know nothing else

[00:37:28] about his training, but he's done a

[00:37:30] brilliant job of marketing that and

[00:37:31] I'm sure he's like printing money.

[00:37:34] Right.

[00:37:34] So it just comes down to like,

[00:37:36] is there value in that?

[00:37:37] Yes.

[00:37:38] Can I pull that pieces of that out?

[00:37:40] Yes.

[00:37:41] Figure out where it fits in your

[00:37:42] philosophy and then like diffuse

[00:37:44] that and use it where applicable.

[00:37:46] And I think that's, that's, that's

[00:37:48] the big issue, right?

[00:37:49] Is like hanging your hat on solely

[00:37:51] one thing versus just understanding

[00:37:53] like look training is not nearly

[00:37:55] that myopic, right?

[00:37:56] Most people want more well rounded

[00:37:58] levels of fitness, whether we're

[00:37:59] talking athletes, people that want

[00:38:01] longevity, we talked about it up top

[00:38:03] power, strength, mobility, conditioning

[00:38:05] all these tools are important.

[00:38:06] So just figure out where these

[00:38:07] fads kind of fit in, take the

[00:38:09] useful stuff and apply it

[00:38:10] appropriately.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:12] You know, I've always referred to

[00:38:13] the coaches journey because I've

[00:38:15] experienced it.

[00:38:16] I've seen great coaches like yourself

[00:38:18] kind of go through the same thing

[00:38:19] and like, you know, you get started

[00:38:21] you don't know a whole lot, right?

[00:38:23] Sure.

[00:38:23] So you start grabbing on to things,

[00:38:25] right?

[00:38:26] And then maybe grab onto a few

[00:38:27] things and then that's everything.

[00:38:30] Right.

[00:38:30] For me, it was, you know, CrossFit

[00:38:31] and Paleo and I've talked about

[00:38:32] this a dozen like I was pretty

[00:38:34] sure I could cure anything

[00:38:36] with CrossFit and Paleo.

[00:38:38] Right.

[00:38:38] Just come to my gym, you know,

[00:38:39] we'll get you on CrossFit,

[00:38:40] we'll do Paleo.

[00:38:41] Everything's gonna be great.

[00:38:42] Your life's gonna change.

[00:38:43] Sometimes it worked.

[00:38:44] A lot of times it did in the short term,

[00:38:46] but then I started learning more.

[00:38:47] I invested in more education.

[00:38:48] I started going through this period

[00:38:49] of like, holy shit, I know nothing.

[00:38:52] I know nothing.

[00:38:53] Right?

[00:38:54] Right.

[00:38:54] And then you go through this long period

[00:38:56] and then eventually you get to this

[00:38:57] point of like, well, geez, you know,

[00:38:59] if I just have a well balanced

[00:39:01] program, I focus on the people,

[00:39:03] right, as a person, you know,

[00:39:05] stuff we're talking about the

[00:39:06] intangible soft skills, right?

[00:39:08] Get them to sleep better,

[00:39:09] get them to recover better,

[00:39:10] get them to drink more water,

[00:39:11] or slightly improve their nutrition,

[00:39:13] train consistently.

[00:39:15] That's all they need.

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:16] Right.

[00:39:16] But how do you, how do you package

[00:39:17] that up and make a ton of money on it?

[00:39:19] Right.

[00:39:19] Well, that's

[00:39:20] You don't.

[00:39:22] You don't.

[00:39:23] And I think that's why most of us,

[00:39:25] you know, live kind of humble lifestyles.

[00:39:27] Again, because here's the thing,

[00:39:29] right, people gravitate.

[00:39:31] It's like a magnet.

[00:39:32] People, the best marketers,

[00:39:34] and I'm sure you've studied marketing,

[00:39:36] right, they call it magnetic

[00:39:37] marketing for a reason, right?

[00:39:38] If you're in the middle,

[00:39:39] you attract nobody.

[00:39:40] You need to be polarizing.

[00:39:41] And the people that are the most

[00:39:43] polarizing are probably the people

[00:39:44] that make the most money because

[00:39:46] the people that really like them

[00:39:47] like love them, right?

[00:39:48] Like they will go to war for you.

[00:39:50] They will tout everything that you

[00:39:52] say they will beat the drum for you.

[00:39:54] And the people that hate you

[00:39:55] will they hate you and they're

[00:39:56] not going to pay attention to you

[00:39:57] hopefully, right?

[00:39:58] It's like the people that are

[00:39:59] like saying and in the middle

[00:40:00] and like preaching moderation

[00:40:02] and like it's just a lot harder

[00:40:03] to sell.

[00:40:04] So I think that's where it comes

[00:40:05] down to OK, now you have to do

[00:40:07] those intangibles so much better,

[00:40:09] right?

[00:40:10] You've got to be able to write

[00:40:11] really good programs.

[00:40:12] You have to be able to coach and

[00:40:14] queue at a savagely high level.

[00:40:16] You got to be able to connect

[00:40:18] with all of these people and find

[00:40:19] ways to make them feel like

[00:40:21] they are your number one client,

[00:40:23] right?

[00:40:24] And part of that too is like just

[00:40:25] the evolution of your business,

[00:40:26] right? Because when you start

[00:40:28] take anybody with a heartbeat

[00:40:29] and a paycheck, right?

[00:40:32] Like when you're opening a gym,

[00:40:33] hey, if you're willing to spend

[00:40:35] money with me, I will take you.

[00:40:37] But Alan Cosgrove talks about

[00:40:38] like your tears level of clients,

[00:40:40] right? You got your A level clients.

[00:40:42] Those are the people that show up

[00:40:43] on time. You would train them for free.

[00:40:45] Their checks always clear,

[00:40:47] right? They refer people to you

[00:40:48] endlessly and then you got your

[00:40:50] D level clients.

[00:40:51] People that are miserable every day,

[00:40:53] they complain the whole session.

[00:40:54] They never show up on time or

[00:40:55] they late cancel their checks

[00:40:57] always bounce.

[00:40:58] Like your goal over time is to

[00:40:59] just work your way up and like

[00:41:01] constantly prune to where, hey,

[00:41:02] at the end, if you're not

[00:41:03] training all A and B clients

[00:41:05] like you're doing something

[00:41:06] wrong. Yeah.

[00:41:07] Well said.

[00:41:08] You know, there's a mind being a

[00:41:09] little exercise I did as a gym

[00:41:10] owner too. You know, every month

[00:41:12] I would go through and I would

[00:41:13] pull. This is easy to pull

[00:41:14] reports of like who spent the

[00:41:15] most money with me.

[00:41:17] Then out of those 10, I would

[00:41:19] give it the smile test.

[00:41:20] I'm like, how do I feel when

[00:41:22] they walk in the door?

[00:41:23] Like if I sit the if I see

[00:41:25] them walk into my gym

[00:41:26] in my hiding in my office,

[00:41:28] right? Just hoping that someone

[00:41:29] else handles them or am I

[00:41:31] just going over again with hugs,

[00:41:32] smiling after their day?

[00:41:34] And those are the people that I

[00:41:36] that month I would take out to

[00:41:37] launch or take out to coffee and

[00:41:38] just talk to them, you know, get

[00:41:39] their feedback. Hey, just let

[00:41:40] them know. They're like, you're

[00:41:42] the best. I want more of you.

[00:41:44] So yes. And just blatantly

[00:41:45] telling them, like this is

[00:41:47] nothing else. I just really I

[00:41:48] think you're a great client.

[00:41:49] I appreciate you and I want

[00:41:50] more people like you.

[00:41:51] So just whenever you think

[00:41:53] of us, please, please share

[00:41:55] the word. Right?

[00:41:56] And it's that simple and

[00:41:57] almost always worked.

[00:41:58] Almost got one referral almost

[00:41:59] every time. Absolutely.

[00:42:00] I mean, like that's grassroots

[00:42:02] marketing at its finest,

[00:42:03] right? Because most of us, you

[00:42:05] know, if you're a huge company or

[00:42:07] you have investors or you've

[00:42:08] been around forever, yeah, you're

[00:42:09] probably going to spend some

[00:42:11] money on external marketing.

[00:42:12] But a lot of times early on

[00:42:14] it's bootstraps, right?

[00:42:15] And so we did the same thing.

[00:42:16] What we would do is we would

[00:42:17] take like our top 10 clients

[00:42:19] and legitimately it's like, hey,

[00:42:21] let's go. Can we just go grab

[00:42:22] coffee? You know, can I take

[00:42:24] you to lunch? And it's not

[00:42:25] even like a pick your brain type

[00:42:27] thing. It's the exact same

[00:42:28] mindset is, hey, look, I love

[00:42:30] having you at my gym.

[00:42:31] Like you are amazing.

[00:42:32] I can't train you for free, but I

[00:42:33] would. Right?

[00:42:35] You know, having that discussion

[00:42:36] but then it's like if you ever

[00:42:38] have somebody that you think would

[00:42:39] be a good fit, I would love to

[00:42:40] have 10 more people just

[00:42:42] like you. And I think when you

[00:42:43] have those conversations, it's

[00:42:45] so genuine. It's so authentic.

[00:42:47] Like they feel that too.

[00:42:48] So they're compelled

[00:42:50] to try and find people like

[00:42:52] them that can then come and

[00:42:53] fill your gym up. And I just

[00:42:54] think that's just such a genuine

[00:42:56] and authentic way to build

[00:42:57] your business.

[00:42:58] And ultimately it helps you

[00:42:59] build the kind of business that

[00:43:00] you want, right?

[00:43:01] And I have to give credit to

[00:43:02] Andy Petronic. He was my business

[00:43:03] coach at the time and he was the

[00:43:04] one who, you know, really held

[00:43:06] my feet to the fire to do that

[00:43:07] every month. And it was well,

[00:43:09] well worth it.

[00:43:10] One of the things I want to

[00:43:11] touch base as we kind of put up

[00:43:13] on time here is like talk about

[00:43:14] bandwagons. But there are

[00:43:15] certain innovations that I

[00:43:16] know, especially maybe from the

[00:43:18] technology side of things that

[00:43:19] you've incorporated in, you

[00:43:21] know, you've identified as like

[00:43:23] not a trend. These are really

[00:43:24] valuable tools that we can

[00:43:26] we can really leverage now.

[00:43:28] Like we don't have to talk

[00:43:28] about AI. AI is like, you

[00:43:30] know, other people are figuring

[00:43:31] that stuff out. Right? But what

[00:43:33] do you what do you latch on to

[00:43:34] recently?

[00:43:36] So I think the big thing for me

[00:43:38] is just getting really targeted

[00:43:39] and specific in our assessment.

[00:43:42] Right. So like if you have read

[00:43:43] anything about I fast like Bill

[00:43:45] and I are kind of nerds about

[00:43:46] this stuff and like breaking

[00:43:47] down. Bill loves table tests

[00:43:49] because he's a physical therapist.

[00:43:50] You know, how do they look on

[00:43:51] the table? I love breaking down

[00:43:53] people's movements.

[00:43:54] But there's a subjective element

[00:43:56] to that. Right.

[00:43:57] And when you're training

[00:43:59] athletes, there's an objective

[00:44:00] component we would love to have as

[00:44:01] well. And so this is where I've

[00:44:03] really tried to spend the last

[00:44:04] couple of years of my life.

[00:44:06] Shout out to Hawken Dynamics

[00:44:08] because I love their their

[00:44:09] products, their force plates.

[00:44:11] This has allowed me to go in and

[00:44:13] really like get under the hood

[00:44:14] with some of these athletes.

[00:44:15] And so it's very clear

[00:44:17] you get so many metrics.

[00:44:18] It can be overwhelming at the

[00:44:20] start. But when you start to

[00:44:21] like really understand, oh,

[00:44:22] wow, like this athlete

[00:44:24] legitimately has the physical

[00:44:26] output. Right.

[00:44:27] They have the jump height to

[00:44:28] maybe play in the NBA.

[00:44:29] But then you look at other

[00:44:31] metrics, right? Like their ability

[00:44:32] to break and slow their body down.

[00:44:34] Oh, wow, they're but they're like

[00:44:35] a college athlete at this

[00:44:37] level. Right.

[00:44:38] So it just gives you so much more

[00:44:39] information and it allows you to

[00:44:41] be so much more targeted and

[00:44:42] specific in your programs.

[00:44:44] So like that's definitely where I'm

[00:44:46] at is just trying to

[00:44:48] add objective elements

[00:44:50] to our performance assessment that

[00:44:52] we can then marry into some of

[00:44:53] the subjective components.

[00:44:54] Because I feel like at this point,

[00:44:56] I can tell you why your squat,

[00:44:58] your hinge, your push up look

[00:45:00] the way that they do.

[00:45:01] But if I can get under the hood and

[00:45:02] tell you, hey, no, this is why

[00:45:04] you're not jumping as high as

[00:45:05] you want to or this is why you're

[00:45:07] not as fast as you want to.

[00:45:09] It gives them some very concrete

[00:45:11] stuff to see and work towards.

[00:45:13] And it helps me write a better

[00:45:14] program because now I'm not just

[00:45:16] guessing right up to this point.

[00:45:17] It was like, oh, you know, I

[00:45:18] think we need to work on this,

[00:45:20] this and this. And, you know,

[00:45:21] you put it in the blender and,

[00:45:23] you know, a lot of time and a

[00:45:24] lot of mistakes.

[00:45:25] You start to figure these things

[00:45:26] out, but now it's very clear, like,

[00:45:28] hey, these things are

[00:45:29] are not where they need to be.

[00:45:31] We have to attack these if we want

[00:45:33] to improve your performance.

[00:45:34] So I think really marrying some of

[00:45:36] that technology is important,

[00:45:38] valuable and it's more cost

[00:45:40] effective because look, if I

[00:45:42] when I was at school, the

[00:45:44] forceplate that we used an

[00:45:45] in-ground forceplate was $50,000.

[00:45:48] So needless to say, that's out

[00:45:50] of most small gym or small

[00:45:52] business owners' budgets.

[00:45:54] You can get force plates now

[00:45:55] for five thousand dollars.

[00:45:56] So it's literally 10 percent of the

[00:45:58] cost. And then when you think about

[00:45:59] how you can use that to

[00:46:01] drive revenue, right?

[00:46:02] Like, hey, I'm going to do

[00:46:03] performance assessments just as a

[00:46:04] standalone.

[00:46:05] I'm going to use it as part of my

[00:46:07] onboarding process.

[00:46:08] I'm going to use it as part of my

[00:46:09] reassessment and my training

[00:46:10] process. Now you start to think

[00:46:12] about, oh man, these pay for

[00:46:14] themselves over the course of a

[00:46:15] year or two. But I think the

[00:46:16] cost effectiveness is part of it

[00:46:18] too. And that's the beauty of the

[00:46:19] technology and the innovation is

[00:46:21] now costs are coming down.

[00:46:23] So it's far more reasonable for

[00:46:24] the average gym owner to invest

[00:46:25] in some of these pieces of tech.

[00:46:27] Yeah. Yeah, we got to get your

[00:46:28] hands on a Proteus.

[00:46:29] Yeah. That's that's a man.

[00:46:31] It's it's a reminder.

[00:46:32] I'm down. I think it's Sam.

[00:46:34] Sam is the CEO, right?

[00:46:36] President. Yeah, I think he's

[00:46:37] going to come on the show at

[00:46:38] some point. So yeah, I can't

[00:46:39] wait. I'm just I'm so obsessed

[00:46:41] with that right now.

[00:46:42] And I think that's one of the

[00:46:43] coolest things for us as strength

[00:46:45] coaches is really trying to find

[00:46:47] ways to objectively demonstrate

[00:46:49] that we're doing what we want

[00:46:50] to write. If you think about it

[00:46:51] before, how do we demonstrate

[00:46:52] our worth? Oh, well, there's

[00:46:54] squat went up. They're power

[00:46:55] cleaning more, right?

[00:46:56] And we know those things don't

[00:46:57] always correlate to the feeler

[00:46:59] to the court. So now I think

[00:47:01] we're just able to track and

[00:47:02] measure tools that are far more

[00:47:04] effective for our athletes.

[00:47:06] Awesome. As we wrap up, you

[00:47:08] have a program design

[00:47:11] mentorship coming up.

[00:47:13] Tell me about that.

[00:47:14] Like why why number one

[00:47:16] and then what is it?

[00:47:18] Yeah. So the program

[00:47:20] design mentorship, I just

[00:47:21] think of it there's like three

[00:47:22] levels to the stuff I offer,

[00:47:24] right? Like free stuff,

[00:47:26] which is articles, blogs, podcasts,

[00:47:29] videos, all that good stuff.

[00:47:30] There's the cert, which is kind

[00:47:32] of like the next level.

[00:47:33] And then the mentorship is

[00:47:34] something that I ran for a

[00:47:35] couple years.

[00:47:36] And then as I built the

[00:47:37] basketball piece of the

[00:47:39] business, that just took a lot

[00:47:40] of time and energy away.

[00:47:42] So the program design

[00:47:43] mentorship is basically like

[00:47:44] your master's level or PhD

[00:47:46] focus on programming because

[00:47:48] I mean, I've talked to so many

[00:47:49] people about program design

[00:47:51] over the years from people

[00:47:52] like the interns, right, that

[00:47:54] have never written a program

[00:47:55] and they write their first one

[00:47:56] with us to people that have

[00:47:58] been doing this 20, 25, 30 years

[00:48:00] and almost universally

[00:48:02] people are not confident

[00:48:03] in their ability to write a good

[00:48:05] program.

[00:48:06] So that's why this is

[00:48:07] something I felt compelled to

[00:48:09] bring back.

[00:48:10] And basically we just tear it down

[00:48:11] into like six months of

[00:48:13] very focused content.

[00:48:15] Like the first month is all

[00:48:16] just about really understanding

[00:48:17] movement, right? Why do people

[00:48:18] move the way that they do?

[00:48:19] What are the common

[00:48:20] compensations you see?

[00:48:21] What are some people get scared

[00:48:23] when I talk about this?

[00:48:24] What are some of the physical

[00:48:25] principles, right? When you start

[00:48:26] talking about physics, people are

[00:48:27] like, oh, and they roll their

[00:48:29] eyes. But like physics

[00:48:30] are important if you don't

[00:48:31] understand foundational physics,

[00:48:33] you can't understand movement.

[00:48:34] So it's everything from that to

[00:48:35] like sets, reps, periodization

[00:48:38] structures.

[00:48:39] You know, how do we write

[00:48:40] various strength training

[00:48:41] programs? How does conditioning

[00:48:43] fit into all this?

[00:48:44] So it's really just like these

[00:48:46] nuanced, like focused

[00:48:48] blocks of learning about

[00:48:50] the various elements of program

[00:48:51] design. And then at the end,

[00:48:52] trying to understand like how do

[00:48:54] you bring all this together?

[00:48:55] Because if you can write a really

[00:48:56] good strength program and then

[00:48:57] you start learning about

[00:48:58] conditioning and you just

[00:48:59] write a full conditioning

[00:49:01] program and then mobility, it

[00:49:03] ends up looking like Frankenstein,

[00:49:04] right? It's like this

[00:49:05] collection of parts.

[00:49:06] So helping people understand

[00:49:07] how do we bring all these

[00:49:09] pieces together to write this

[00:49:10] really like seamless and

[00:49:12] cohesive programs?

[00:49:13] So yeah, we'll be bringing

[00:49:15] that back in 2024.

[00:49:17] But yeah, man, we got a group

[00:49:19] rolling right now.

[00:49:20] They're a great group.

[00:49:20] They're excited to learn and

[00:49:22] it's a lot of fun because I don't

[00:49:24] take very many people.

[00:49:25] Generally, it's like 10 to 12

[00:49:26] people. So it's very small,

[00:49:28] very intimate and just trying

[00:49:30] to help these people become

[00:49:31] absolute savages with their

[00:49:32] program design.

[00:49:33] I love it, man.

[00:49:34] I love it. And what a great

[00:49:35] experience. I mean, just doing

[00:49:36] those small groups like that,

[00:49:37] you just learn so much more.

[00:49:39] I think so too.

[00:49:40] The feedback and the interaction

[00:49:42] and a little bit easier to be

[00:49:44] vulnerable, right?

[00:49:45] To us, we all know that

[00:49:46] that's that's a big part of

[00:49:47] the learning process too,

[00:49:48] especially in the coaching

[00:49:49] industry where there's a

[00:49:50] little bit of ego here and

[00:49:51] there. Absolutely.

[00:49:53] And I think we all start with

[00:49:54] that, right?

[00:49:55] Even if it's not there, we kind

[00:49:56] of fake it, right?

[00:49:57] Put up that hard exterior.

[00:49:59] And I think that's one of the

[00:49:59] things that's that's a sign.

[00:50:01] I think you're evolving as a

[00:50:01] coach is when you can really

[00:50:03] start to be more vulnerable

[00:50:04] and understand, hey, I don't

[00:50:06] know all the things here.

[00:50:07] Got blind spots and weaknesses

[00:50:08] and when you can start to be

[00:50:10] open and honest about that,

[00:50:11] that also opens the floodgates

[00:50:13] to to really leveling up as a

[00:50:15] coach as well.

[00:50:16] Yeah. And one thing I noticed

[00:50:17] about you, and this is

[00:50:18] something that Kelly Storet

[00:50:20] brought up in an interview

[00:50:21] a year or two back, but

[00:50:23] coaches who are on that journey

[00:50:25] right? And then I mentioned

[00:50:26] kind of got to the point of

[00:50:27] like maturation.

[00:50:29] Rarely do you see these people

[00:50:30] tear other coaches down ever?

[00:50:32] Almost never.

[00:50:33] Almost never.

[00:50:34] Right. Right.

[00:50:35] And that's really important

[00:50:36] because it's like you

[00:50:37] appreciate the body of work.

[00:50:39] Maybe you disagree on a

[00:50:40] principle or two.

[00:50:42] Right. But overall,

[00:50:43] you just have a ton of

[00:50:44] appreciation because you've

[00:50:45] gone through it already.

[00:50:46] And I think that's, you

[00:50:47] know, people who are

[00:50:47] starting to kind of go

[00:50:48] through the coaching world.

[00:50:50] Like that's really important.

[00:50:51] Like, you don't if you're

[00:50:53] tearing someone else down,

[00:50:54] it just means you're really

[00:50:55] insecure in what you're doing.

[00:50:56] Yeah.

[00:50:57] That's such a great point

[00:50:58] and a great way to put it.

[00:50:59] I remember Jocko Willanek

[00:51:01] used to talk about, you know,

[00:51:03] the guy that's always

[00:51:04] trying to pick the fights

[00:51:05] is the guy that's the most

[00:51:06] insecure. Right.

[00:51:08] Like the guy that knows

[00:51:09] how to handle himself is

[00:51:10] trained martial arts for

[00:51:11] like 10 or 15 years.

[00:51:12] They're strong and fit.

[00:51:13] Guys never trying to pick

[00:51:14] fights, right?

[00:51:15] He's actively trying to avoid

[00:51:16] it. And I think it's

[00:51:17] the same way with coaches.

[00:51:18] You know, somebody sent me

[00:51:19] this kind of snarky email

[00:51:21] the other day and back in

[00:51:22] the day would have been like,

[00:51:23] no, this is why you're wrong.

[00:51:25] And, you know, I would have

[00:51:25] just spent the whole rest

[00:51:27] of the day ruminating on it

[00:51:28] and explaining why this

[00:51:29] person was an idiot.

[00:51:30] And literally looked at it

[00:51:32] for like 20 seconds.

[00:51:33] Delete. Done.

[00:51:35] Like why?

[00:51:36] Why am I going to argue

[00:51:37] with that person?

[00:51:37] I'm not going to change

[00:51:38] their mind.

[00:51:38] So yeah, you just get

[00:51:40] to this point where it's

[00:51:41] like, I'm just I'm

[00:51:42] comfortable in who I am

[00:51:43] and I don't know everything

[00:51:44] and I'm trying to get

[00:51:45] better every day.

[00:51:46] And I think that's a pretty

[00:51:47] good place to be in.

[00:51:48] Awesome.

[00:51:48] Well, let's leave it at that,

[00:51:49] Mike.

[00:51:50] We're where would you like

[00:51:51] people to go?

[00:51:52] People want to learn more

[00:51:53] about you if they want to

[00:51:53] find out about the program

[00:51:54] design mentorship and all

[00:51:55] the things you offer.

[00:51:56] What's what's good.

[00:51:58] Let's go to places.

[00:51:59] If you want free stuff,

[00:52:01] RobertsonTrainingSystems.com

[00:52:03] Literally, we're talking

[00:52:05] well over a thousand pieces

[00:52:07] of particles, blogs,

[00:52:09] videos, 400 plus podcasts.

[00:52:12] Like you could just go there

[00:52:14] sign up for the newsletter

[00:52:15] and get free stuff for

[00:52:16] the rest of your life or as long

[00:52:17] as long as I'm creating content

[00:52:19] and never pay a dime.

[00:52:21] So start there.

[00:52:22] If you know nothing about me

[00:52:23] and you want to learn more,

[00:52:24] if you're a trainer coach,

[00:52:25] you're really serious

[00:52:26] about leveling up the complete

[00:52:28] coach certification.

[00:52:29] It's just complete

[00:52:30] coachcertification.com

[00:52:32] is basically my intro

[00:52:34] into my world

[00:52:35] because I feel like

[00:52:36] there's a lot of trainers

[00:52:37] and coaches out there.

[00:52:38] They get asserted,

[00:52:40] right?

[00:52:40] They get certified

[00:52:42] and then they get in

[00:52:42] the real world

[00:52:43] and they realize, wow,

[00:52:44] that doesn't help me train

[00:52:46] real people.

[00:52:46] It doesn't help me understand

[00:52:48] some of these basic

[00:52:49] foundational principles

[00:52:50] of program design or coaching.

[00:52:52] So if you're a trainer or coach,

[00:52:53] you want to level up,

[00:52:54] check it out,

[00:52:54] completecoachcertification.com

[00:52:56] Right on. Mike,

[00:52:58] thank you so much for joining.

[00:52:59] It was just really interesting

[00:53:01] to you and I've always

[00:53:02] when I'm going through this,

[00:53:02] I'm like, when are you going

[00:53:03] to call this episode?

[00:53:04] Right? Like what's

[00:53:05] what's the name of it?

[00:53:06] And I was like, you know,

[00:53:07] this is modern coaching

[00:53:08] principles.

[00:53:08] And that's that's what

[00:53:09] I'm going to call it.

[00:53:10] It's an excellent work, man.

[00:53:12] Really appreciate you spending

[00:53:13] an hour of your day with me

[00:53:14] and yeah, ladies and gentlemen,

[00:53:15] Mike Roberts.

[00:53:16] Thanks, dude.

[00:53:16] Appreciate you, man.

[00:53:18] Hey, wait, don't leave yet.

[00:53:20] This is your host, Eric Malzone.

[00:53:22] And I hope you enjoyed this

[00:53:24] episode of Future of Menace.

[00:53:25] If you did, I'm going to ask

[00:53:27] you to do three simple things.

[00:53:29] It takes under five minutes

[00:53:30] and it goes such a long way.

[00:53:32] We really appreciate it.

[00:53:33] Number one, please subscribe

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[00:53:57] Lastly, if you'd like to learn

[00:53:59] more or get in touch with me,

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[00:54:02] of fitness dot co.

[00:54:03] You can subscribe to our newsletter

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[00:54:09] So thank you so much.

[00:54:11] This is Eric Malzone

[00:54:12] and this is the future of

[00:54:13] fitness. Have a great day.