Mark Fisher - The Evolution of Gyms: A 15yr Perspective

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[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You're live.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The one and only Mr. Mark Fisher.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back, my friend.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Here we go, buddy.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Great to be back.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in shock.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been two years.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It is wild.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It blew my mind.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, how long has it been since I've had Mark on?

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I look back and I'm like, oh, it was September of 2022.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that probably meant that we recorded around July.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But either way, it's, I don't know.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just weird post pandemic time.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would have perhaps not had a baby yet or maybe I had just become

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a father last which had it.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I believe so.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you were, I think

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you were just about to have your baby.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was close.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It was very close.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it happened.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It happened, Art.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Just one.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it happened.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So if anybody's catching up with anticipation of what happened,

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and she was born, she is alive and a little person.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I will be going to pick her up from daycare after this very chat.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right on, man.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know you've got a lot going on.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I have.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a new book.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about that.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you've made some moves with Mark Fisher Fitness.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Last time we were chatting, you adjust.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You're looking to invest in the alloy kind of big announcement.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's kick it off from there, man.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But what is new?

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on over the last two years?

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, all the things.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Where do we get?

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because I'll take it from the top.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So still have Mark Fisher Fitness still on that.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That business is running along now with a lot less from me.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So to be clear there, I have certainly still have 50-50 ownership,

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but I have taken a big step back operationally and officially don't even have a

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm no longer the org chart.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So I work with the Gemma manager and the we call her director of possibilities.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But the sales directors would have not crazy person would call her.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm still working with and supporting them.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, you know, the weirdest thing about that business, I'll say is

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: still got a lot of zoom ninjas.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Eric, I still have a couple hundred people just do the zoom workouts.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I can say I still have but the team still has.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So that remains both cool and an interesting operational thing that's challenging.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I think the leadership team over there with me along all of us

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: we're having some conversations around.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, what what does this mean for the long haul?

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We really like this program and we're happy.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so valuable for people as you might imagine.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It can actually be also quite profitable to run, but it just really adds a lot

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: of operational complexity.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know that that business right now, which over the years I've spoken of

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: is a beautiful, delightful, magical mess operationally because it's just

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so complicated because I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of the work over there is figuring out, OK, we have this thing

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we love, what kind of options do we have to actually make this streamline

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: in a way that that leadership team which is interested in potentially scaling

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: if they can find the right path forward to make that happen.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So and the you know, the honest answer is it's going to probably require

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: really cracking some eggs and doing some hard things because the reason

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: we haven't historically streamlined the model over the years is any kind

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: of streamlining means people are going to be disappointed.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. And there's only so much a given business can bear.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is an interesting little thing over there that we're working on.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But overall, you know, happy the business is just remarkable now.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like past coming up on our 14th year or 15th year, which is just like

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so shocking to me.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So so that is still fun, still obviously a big part of my life and a big part

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: of my heart and then Alloy is now open.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, as these things go, interesting update for listeners.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So two years ago, we were talking about it.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we were getting excited about what that was going to be.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll tell you what, we didn't actually wind up opening till this the end of October.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: This is being recorded in August.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So we are whatever that works out to be, I guess, like nine months open, 10 months open.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Happy to dig into more details there if that's of interest, if we want to go down that route.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I'll say in brief as to be expected, there were some things

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: that we figured out in real time, specifically had some staffing challenges

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: up front, which are now settled.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I have someone who's just amazing as the fitness director and that model, unlike

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Mark Fisher Fitness, because it's so clean and it's so light from a people perspective,

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: really have the right people in the right seats.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And we feel we've really gotten there.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was actually only about a month and a half ago we got there.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So but overall, that business, you know, is so challenging and frustrating

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and not fun when it's not the right people, which is my responsibility to

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: have the right people.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a lot more fun when you have the right people because it's like

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: compared to MFF, it is a simple, simple model.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, I've definitely learned some things there that inform

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: how I'm thinking about running gyms and gym marketing.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll put a pin in that there in case anything highlights your curiosity.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll say very briefly, the third business is the consulting

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and coaching that companies business for unicorns.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That is the company that released this little book of gym marketing secrets.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's fair to say that's actually my day job.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So although I'm, you know, an owner of Mark Fisher Fitness and an owner of Allaway,

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I only really get involved in those businesses operationally when there's

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: either a specific project that requires flexing up and or I need to come in

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and really help fix something as big as you can.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So now happily, both those businesses are in a situation where I'm not

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: doing quite as much with them.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And BizFeed Unicorns has grown a lot in the past, particularly

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in the past like six months since we decided we were going to actually

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: really get focused and thought there was a there, there and got to the place.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We felt like, OK, after doing this informally now for several years,

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: we feel very confident that these operations are baked out.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can't ever quite say it's a factory, but we got to the point

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: where we had enough quantifiable speaking can be financial success

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: with enough gym owners that we felt that we were in a position

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: now that we could handle a little bit more scale because we knew

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that we had the goods to help people if they came

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and was asking for help, the things we know we're good at.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to we're going to really deliver for them.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll pull up there.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's my tour of my world.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure you'll have places you want to dig in more

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and shine lights on and dig out with a shovel.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, as always, I do.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to get back to the the Zoom warriors, I believe.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You're zoom ninjas. Yeah, buddy.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We're that's that's fascinating, dude.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are they all in Manhattan or are they kind of starting to spread out?

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're they're spread out.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's certainly many in the New York City area.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: There is some percentage are in other markets, right?

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is their way of training with Mark Fisher Fitness.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, there's a non zero percentage of them that are even near

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the clubhouse and probably could come in physically, but just choose not to.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. And there's a number of reasons for that.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think certainly that product is very good.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Now again, it's challenging because it's so different from the other products.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The type of fulfillment there requires, as you might imagine, a really good banter.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So it doesn't require because you really can't utilize very intense,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: deep technical, biomechanical coaching over Zoom.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Though again, I got to say these coaches, they work their ass off

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: because they will work that Zoom grid.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: They're saying names.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: They're asking people just their camera.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: They're coaching.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to make it sound they're not coaching,

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's obviously some limitations doing it through a screen.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. And then further, there is really a premium on are you funny?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Are you able to keep a pattern going that has people engaged and

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: amused and inspired and compared to another service like let's say

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: some small group personal training?

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly communication still matters.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very different product with a very different set of deliverables

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that that coach needs to share.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's an interesting because I suspect some of those individuals

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: might be willing to come and train in person if we just took away that option.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have any intention to take away that option, but it, you know,

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly it's not a program that is growing at this point.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is the thing that's making a little of a sticky moment over there

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: is we're figuring, OK, what is the path to make MFF simpler?

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But also, you know, that that service line is

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: comfortably larger than the average, the revenue of the average gym in America.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's hard to just be like, well, we're just going to cancel it.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, to say nothing of the people that so find so much value

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: in that program.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a thing that, you know, the operations team is figuring out over there.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, another thing I'll share too, that is interesting

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that we are also grappling with is that particular street.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a little bit New York, I think, compared to maybe other markets.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But that particular street has really not recovered from COVID.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean economically, though, that's probably true too.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's been a meaningful uptick of gnarly behavior on that street.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And that too is presented issues in our landlords.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful. But what it's meant in practice is we had to put in a story

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and a half, basically gate in front of the clubhouse

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: so that people wouldn't jump into the downstairs entry to the basement

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: to have sex in two drugs.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We had to put in prison prison style floodlights.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: They put in again, this is actually to my landlord's credit, to be very clear.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I appreciate that they did this, but you might imagine

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: having to put spikes on the fire hydrants out front because so many people

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: out there is not the best and it can get quite scary

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: actually in the mornings and evening.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I think I can probably share this

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: is I think this is probably not news to anybody.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no plan to do anything yet.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So if a ninja is listening or team members listening, don't panic.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think it's probably not a secret to anybody.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things we're going to have to consider is probably finding another location

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_00]: at least consider again, maybe hopefully we can make it work there.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just tough because of our proximity to Port Authority

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and the fact there's no other buildings on that street

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and anybody that runs any sort of brick and mortar business realizes

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that's going to have a quiet but meaningful drag

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: on everything from retention to, you know, God forbid

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody comes there to try us out and there are unhoused people

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: sleeping on the street in front of the clubhouse.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really becoming a point of, I know, frustration and concern

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: for the team and the ninjas alike.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is another thing that is a, you know, part of the joys

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of running all these businesses is Eric, all these various things.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's that's the thing over there that is getting discussed.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it's funny.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you may we may have talked about this last time,

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but running a gym, it's like the operations, the programming.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And generally, like the least of your concerns, man,

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I call them the parking lot issues.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. You know, it's just like stuff that happens.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's just completely out of your control.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, what?

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Like who's sleeping with who?

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what is going on?

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just these things that you can't you can't quite control.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You never saw coming.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess it's just hard to do in business.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that said, well, so let's talk about business for unicorns

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: when you guys are doing that.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So when a person says consulting, it's rather vague.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. Right.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like most of the time when I tell people I consult or like,

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you see, but, you know, I'm not anyone is what I am.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not CIA.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: When you say consulting and there's a there's a decent amount of consultants

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: within gym space, like who are you guys working with?

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: How are you guys differentiating and why are you seeing so much growth

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: over the last six months?

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So to speak a little bit to who we are working with, we work specifically

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: with independent for the most part.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually we that's that's a lie.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We now work with franchises.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lie, Eric.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going quickly.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So historically it has been independent gym owners with one to three locations.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We do require a revenue minimum for the core offering, which we call

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the unicorn society, which is a 12 month coaching program.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We do ask for a $15,000 per month minimum.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So these are for the most part not a brand new baby turtle, though,

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: admittedly that revenue threshold plays very differently in different markets.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It is also important to know we work with individuals that make their

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: revenue through selling coaching products, the vast majority being some

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of group product, either small group, large group or some combination.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That we do work with a handful of individuals that offer personal training

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and some of our members also offer an open access option.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But for the most part, our services are geared around how do we help

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: this type of gym owner with this type of service create more income,

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: more impact and more freedom because we feel very strongly that you

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: really need all three of these.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of gym owners out there that know they're making great impact

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but are very frustrated because it's very scary to look at their bank app

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and they feel somewhat chained the facility.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I think there's another tier above

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: there where people know they're making good money and they feel like

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: they're doing a great job with the clients, but they haven't really

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: been able to build a team to give themselves any kind of freedom,

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: which also is not ideal.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is the broad strokes of that program.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really the only thing people can do with us.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you're welcome to come to an extra seat to retreats,

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: which we do a couple of times a year.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Occasionally, it will offer like a course or something smaller.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But besides that main program, the only other thing we offer is a 12 week

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing sprint and that's for gym owners that either are not ready

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: for the Unicorn Society or want to focus only on income.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you only want to talk about getting more leads and getting

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: more clients to 12 week market sprint, it's the only thing

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: we talk about in there.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing about operations, except for me saying in a way that I have

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to say that this doesn't work if the service is not good.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: If you fill the hole faster and there's a big hole at the bottom of the bucket,

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not it.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But assuming a gym owner is, let's say, very good at what they're offering,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but they just really like a lot of gym owners like me.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: They opened up their gym without an understanding of both the principles

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: of marketing as well as the specific tactics and strategies that are working

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: specifically now in 2024, which is different than it was even five

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: years ago, certainly 10 years ago.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is the other way that people can work with us.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, man.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to tap into your experience over the last 15 years as a gym owner.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's a really interesting time frame and a lot has

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: happened. I mean, you kind of started, I think I started my gym in 08.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was like kind of post financial crash.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: That was a legitimate financial crash.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then pandemic, of course, a lot of things have happened over

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the last 15 years for gym owners.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So how if you can just maybe broadly a broad scope, like how has the gym

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: industry? We'll just talk about independent gym owners.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: How has it changed over the last 15 years significantly, you think?

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And then want to get into the marketing specifically.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I mean, there's two that come to mind.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: The first is and I think this is this has some pros and cons to it.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I have a theory of what I call the theory of displaced nutrients.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first way that I see gyms having changed in a meaningful way over

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the past 15 years is it used to be when guys like us were coming up,

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: there wasn't a lot of information at all about the business of fitness.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you were really ambitious and nerdy, at least by the time I opened

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: up Mark Fisher Fitness, or to start again serious about 2010, 2011,

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: at least by that time, there were a couple people talking about fitness

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: business, but for the most part there were only a couple of them.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And there wasn't that many resources where they were putting out tons of content.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So you would see them maybe at event there might be one or two business speakers

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of the learning that you would do would be through books.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd read business books, which may or may not apply to a gym because

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously most business books, maybe not obviously, but many business books

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: are written as essentially business cards for corporate consultants to book

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: much larger companies that have the amount of revenue necessary to hire people

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and consultants for very large consulting gigs.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's not that's not to say that I don't get a lot of value.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of business books, but as somebody who's been reading one

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to two books per week for my career at this point, a lot of this

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: point are more and more flimsy like this was a pamphlet and you couldn't

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: just give them your framework, your whatever your XY access,

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever your model is.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You had to write a book around it and then you had to put all your friends

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: in a chokehold to get on some obscure bookseller list because now instead of

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: 10K for the day, now you can start to 25K for the day and get business class.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? And I don't judge any of that, but I just want to point that out

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: because if you're listening to this, particularly if you are a smaller

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: gym owner, a brick and mortar business, it's not that that's a bad idea

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to read books like Good to Great.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You should absolutely read that.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There's I think principles that are still useful, but it's so foreign to what

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: your experience is like running a gym right now.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, three employees, you maybe make a hire once every 18 months,

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: just a very different scale of business.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I say all of that to point out that this is very different now.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So now there's tons of guys like me, like us, there's a lot of resources.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: There's, I think, God, there has to be like 30 podcasts just devoted

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: even to my particular niche of the fitness business.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: There are all sorts of coaching groups.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: There are all sorts of courses, products.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you go to events like Perform Better where I speak on the tour,

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, instead of there being one or two people now, usually any given

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: weekend, there's, you know, three to five to six different speakers

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that are talking about the business.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think net net it's a positive in a lot of ways because we're still

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a young industry and in particular, my corner oftentimes is often defined

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: by being a personal trainer that opened up a gym, which is very different

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: than a business person that opened up a gym because they wanted to get into

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: business. Right?

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not to say that either are better than the other, just that if

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you come from personal trainer background, you often need a lot of those

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: gaps filled in to understand the basics of marketing and sales and finance

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and hiring and managing and developing a team.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's good.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think because of that, there is maybe a generation of younger

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: coaches and gym owners that have not had nearly the amount of in-person

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: educational experience.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And my suspicion is it might have maybe in not helpful ways to include

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the actual quality of the technical training fitness product.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to be clear because I am not a zealot at all.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: From a public health messaging perspective, I want people moving.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want everybody going for aggressive walks every day.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: If we do that, I've always been more interested in raising our floor

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: as a society than necessarily optimizing into the far ether for the people

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that are amazing, inspiring freaks of nature that are so, so fit.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: However, if the quality of training at the prototypical training

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: gym is just not that great because instead of the owner going

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to a starting strength seminar or really being diligent about studying the FMS

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or getting across whatever, if very early on in their career,

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: they started diffusing a lot of their time and attention just focusing

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: on making more money that can come with a cost.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that is I think a very, very big change from 15 years ago.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have some other things I'll share, but I'll kind of pull up there

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in case you had any follow-up questions or any reflections or insights.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, it definitely seems that I mean, here's my take to

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: those. We talk about business people who get into fitness.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it seems rare because if you truly a fitness business mind,

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you wouldn't do it. Are you going to choose fitness?

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Or if you did, you wouldn't be opening up like one small brick and mortar.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, admittedly, you might be doing franchising, right?

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you might go into a franchise.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But and even then, if you really want big enterprise value,

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you're likely doing something related to tech that has the capacity

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: for real enterprise value in real scale.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's just a game that had almost no resemblance to what the typical

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: personal trainer opened up a small gym in Nebraska.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They're again, same industry kind of, but there's almost no crossover.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I mean, it's a.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you see like these big executive shuffle.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I just talked about this.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You shuffle all these large major companies within the fitness industry

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: they're on Wall Street.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, you know, one guy's from Taco Bell.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I can already say, I don't think this is going to work out well.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, maybe it is.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But I can tell you right now, it's a lot easier to sell

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: gorditos than it is to sell, you know, fat loss or fitness as a lifestyle.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. It just takes more, more emotion to get to that point.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's it isn't she and I want to get your take on this

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because for the most whole different things about this, especially with advent of AI.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But how do you feel like the fitness profession?

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: When I say the profession, I mean, the practitioners, the coaches, the trainers.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel like that profession is doing?

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like is it is it are you optimistic about it?

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you a little like I'm concerned it's way it's sliding into the gig economy

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: or it's just kind of a thing you do for a little while and then you move on.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Like are people looking for a career where they could spend 10, 15 years or more

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: in as a practitioner?

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you what's your take on that?

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'll qualify is I don't have any dad on this.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So I can y'all share like my like this is what feels right to me

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: because obviously, you know, the industry is large.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there has to be I can't remember the exact numbers.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's like over 100,000 trainers, maybe multiple hundreds of

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: thousand trainers just in the US.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, friends, Eric Malzone here.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had the honor of interviewing over 750 professionals across

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the fitness, health and wellness industries.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There's one thing I know for sure.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Without a doubt, there is a tremendous opportunity to leverage

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[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and content creators.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Traditional advertising isn't what it used to be.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Costs are high.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Consumer trust is low.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen the results firsthand and can assure you there's a much better way

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to connect with your target audience and emerge as a thought leader in our industry.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly why I've launched a podcast collective,

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: ultimate solution designed to empower executives, founders

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and thought leaders in the fitness, health and wellness sectors.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Our mission to help you leverage the extraordinary opportunities

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: within our handpicked network of independent podcasts.

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[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to ensure the highest level of service.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So please don't hesitate to reach out, learn more.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Go to podcastcollective.io to learn more and contact me directly.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's podcastcollective.io.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know this one of the challenges for the industry is

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: if you look at the business model,

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it's there's just not that much to go around.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't get unlimited scale.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So follow me on this very strange

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: analogy, which I promise is going to relate back to this.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the issues we have in society, Eric, is childcare.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. And the reason childcare is such a sticky widget is it doesn't scale.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Like you can't have like one person can only manage

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so many two year olds, so many three year olds.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: The robots can't do much to help there yet.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have this perverse situation where the market is such

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that because at current the way the United States particularly set up

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's not a lot of subsidization for this.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: What happens is well, for one person to make enough living off only

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: taking care of four to eight kids and also having all the overhead

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: associated with having a physical space, it kind of doesn't work for anybody.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Because you have to charge the couples so much money.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you're still not really making a lot of money as a business.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And you still can't really pay the people that are doing the care tons.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's tough. Now, again, that's not my world.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So I don't have the solutions there other than, yes,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps the state does need to subsidize that kind of care.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's challenging, right?

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the only way you could potentially do it is you just keep raising

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the rates of the daycare until to a certain point, the parents say,

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: this doesn't make sense if you look at the net income impact on our family.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: One partner, and it's usually the woman, will just leave the workforce.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They'll just leave the workforce because it doesn't make sense

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: for a lot of people unless you're doing really well to spend,

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, 25 to $50,000 a year on your daycare for your two-year-old

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: or your three-year-old. Right.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not it's not a very scale versus sustainable model for the society.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I say this because if you look at the training gym,

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not the similar.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So the hypothetical training gym, whether it's called 100 to 250 clients,

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the way the math works, you either have to go pretty massively upmarket

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and charge a lot of money to people that have discretionary income,

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: which are usually only going to be people that are older.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And even then, for the gym owner to get very good margins,

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a limit on what you can pay to the staff.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So without getting in the details about anything I'm not allowed

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to talk about because of whatever FDD, you know, disclosure I can't make.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I really like about Alloy, right?

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And part of how they've solved it that I like is just make the model

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: super, super lean and I'm also the first to admit

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Alloy is not out there trying to be like a discount provider by any means,

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: right, we're premium price products.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. It's not it's a high quality product, but by I'm not the person

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: say it's cheap. That's part of the rationale behind being a fit 40 and over a crowd.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But even so, particularly compared to the types of one-on-one training

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: or other products they might provide, what I like about Alloy is

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a great value proposition for the consumer.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great value proposition for the business owner

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: because you can get the margins right because it's being run

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: so operationally lean that you can actually pay people pretty good rates

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: for what this job is.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So we go back to your question.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this industry at the risk of people becoming more gigging?

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure necessarily that was ever the case, but one thing

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that's new compared to 15 years ago is the advent of online training.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So one threat certainly to many gym owners, at least in theory,

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in theory, and I'll come back to that, at least in theory,

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: is now your trainers instead of the only other option being

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: applying their trade at the local independent gym spot where they're

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: renting by the hour or the month.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And at a certain point they're like, I just want to do the marketing stuff.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd rather just make a little less money and I'll come work with you

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and just feed me clients and I can just train and just do the thing I want to do.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, now some of them, some percentage of them are able to go train online.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And in some situations, maybe even make less money than they were making

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: doing their in-person training, but they're fine with it.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if you're in a smaller market, maybe you'd rather just

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: make $40,000 a year and not really have to be anywhere and be able

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: to move to somewhere with a very low cost of living, maybe do geo-arbitrage.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to go live in Thailand for a couple of years.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, again, is that making a sustainable career?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But at least it's one more option for trainers to consider.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's I don't think it's taking any way from the gyms.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I've always felt that because I think the consumer that wants

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that product for the most part wasn't going to buy a 300, 400, $500

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: training gym membership necessarily.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So to my mind, I'm happy for there to be more options for people

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: to get help with fitness.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy for there to be more professional opportunities

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: for people in the industry.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, it's hard to speak to like the broader picture of has

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: anybody figured out a way to scale fitness such that the model

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: really works beautifully for everybody?

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to say.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to say.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's not like horribly broken, but you know, it's

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the first person to lose a little sleep over what sort

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: of career prospects are we offering for people in this industry?

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we make it?

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So not just gym owners like myself, but the actual front line

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: trainers have a career because for the most part, the solution

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: most people have had is we just accept it's going to be a

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: transitory thing.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You expect if you sign up, if you come and work at most training

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: gyms unless you're in a rural market and you're very happy

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to make X and you're not super financially ambitious.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, it's not a bad thing.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean that a derogatory way, but if you're

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: very happy in your market making what you're making, then

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that's good for the gym owner to be pretty sustainable.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you have staff that are quite ambitious, there's always

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: going to be a cap on what you can pay in any of these models

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: because you just don't have unlimited scale.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to have hard cost of goods sold or cost of

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: service.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually been our industry that's going to impact

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: the most you can pay unless somebody is able to move into

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: some sort of partnership or leadership position.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that can be great for freeing for the owner,

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but then also now that some of the owner's pie is getting

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit smaller.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So usually it means they're going to consider other

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunities, which may or may not be what they want to do.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'll pull up there, but it's something I think

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot about and in short, I don't know, Eric.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, I have a lot of thoughts on that, Mark.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one is that the childcare analogy is really good.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't metaphor analogy.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't get these right nowadays.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Debated on that for like five minutes on the last

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's a metaphor and analogies are kind of metaphor,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: but I don't.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're right.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably not a.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You can say analogous, but I think then we're being perhaps

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: loose with the real definition.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Either way, it's a good comparison, Mark.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I like it.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that one of the things I noticed as a gym owner

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: for a while and we did really decent top line revenue

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: was that I was always saying there's not enough slices

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of the pie to go around.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: The pie is not that big, you know, because people will

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: come out with these like awesome, you know, business plans

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're like, OK, well, if you just do percentage

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: here and percentage here, you just dish off all these

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: percentages.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, guys, in practicality, maybe if my gym is doing

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: 50 grand a month.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, I have a lot of slices I can start to get, but for most

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: people to get to that point, it's just not like that.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think you're right.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was a fundamental issue and I do like lean.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I was ever could open another gym, it would

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: be something in the small group or personal training

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: model because you can just do it very effectively.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You can have a couple good key employees.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You can make them happy.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They love what they're due because they're not having

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: to handle all this operational bullshit for the most part.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just very clean and the online coaching thing is really

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting now.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I get the allure, right?

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone loves the thought of sitting in Bali on a, you know,

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: on a beach of the thought with their laptops and just

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: total free.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's a lovely thought.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But but the reality is that's a completely different

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: skill set.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You obviously now you have to learn marketing, just

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: learn content.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to learn sales.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to niche down.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to do all these things continue to get

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: leads because it's not easy to get online leads.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there is a little bit of a, I was just having

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: this conversation with a good friend of mine.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: He's an awesome coach, dude.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He's like one of the best like action sport coaches I know.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And whenever he tries to go online, he's like, I just

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't know how to get new leads.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm really good here locally where I live.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And that that's a big deal is like you have to start

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: doing content and you have to do all these things

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that you probably hate to do.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So and certainly people go that path.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's certainly possible in theory, but

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: you make a good point.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the thing is it's so much more competitive.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so much more competitive and you can argue that like,

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: yes, listen, somebody's got to win.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But when you remove the cheat, crap, the constraint,

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, you're competing against everybody else to

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: say nothing of the fact that there are still a lot

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: of consumers that don't want that type of training.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, there are some that's actually the

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: better fit.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like just giving my program or we do a

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: call once a month or whatever.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are people that do it really,

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: really, really well.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, you're, you know, there's higher

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: potential return at least.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're playing in a much, much more crowded ball

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: game because you don't have the geographic mode,

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: right?

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas a gym, you're only ever going to be able

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to be competing with other people that could

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: physically get to your facility and they might

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: go somewhere else.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the things that if you are

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: going to go online, that I would urge you,

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like, you have to start to understand

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01]: what a building up brand is.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a brand came across so many videos really

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: well on the online space.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Her name is Kelly.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Can remember her last name, but Western

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Workouts is the name of the business.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So she's, she's a cowboy.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Cowboy.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and she does work out specific to that stuff.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: She's very niche down.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: She's got great social media presence.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: She's a brand, man.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's, it's really good and she's

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: going to do really well because she took a

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: long time to develop that niche and that brand.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's something that people need to consider.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to give us enough time for

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: something here, Mark.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, I asked you about how

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the gym business has changed over the last 15 years.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But specifically, like, how has gym marketing

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: changed over the last 15 years?

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's been a significant,

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: certainly significant shift.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I remember there was no Facebook ads.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Me too, bro.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Me too.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And not only that, I remember, this is

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the weird things about the early days of MFF.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember when organic Facebook in retrospect

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: drove a lot of brand awareness for us.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It drove both people finding out we existed

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because people were posting about us on Facebook

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and tagging us.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It also helped create like and trust,

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly because I was very lucky.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Broadway had the unique distinction of being

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: a very insular community based around

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: a specific neighborhood that was on the one hand

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: small, but the other hand was this big.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of people that involved

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in the Broadway community and a lot of them

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: knew each other.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So organic Facebook was very, very important

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: for Mark Fisher Fitness in the beginning

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and it wouldn't play that way today.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, again, maybe if we went back in time

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and Instagram was a couple years older,

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps we could have done some of it.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Instagram also is always changing

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and you got to imagine it's only a matter of time

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: before Instagram's organic reach goes down.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're already seeing that's happening

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: over and over.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to become the pay to play market as well.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, there were no Facebook ads, but, you know,

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: listen, children sit on grandpa Marky's knee.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I used to write a lot of news feed updates

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in Facebook that really helped build awareness

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: for what MFF was, built my personal brand

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: within that community and really

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: meaningfully drove business.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the thing that's interesting about the time

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: when I got in was a few years before

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Facebook ads and we were already

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in a digital world where the thing

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that's interesting to think about

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: what MFF did well at the time,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: which I think has remained the same is

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: we did and some of this stuff again,

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: JimMarkingSecretsBook.com.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to find more of these tales,

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you can go to get the free download

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of this book that I wrote that covers

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: all the ways you can get more leads

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and more clients.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of my favorite strategies

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I have people always start with is,

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: well, who are the people you know

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and can you start talking to them?

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Now, the difference was talking

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to the people you know was really

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: only an email game in 2008-2009.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Talking to people you know in 2024,

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think emails are a very important part of that.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know necessarily

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that I would just start actually

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: like doing text marketing to people

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to have an explicitly opt-in

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that sounds bad for him.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of the game is people

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that already know you should understand

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: what it is that you're offering.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. And in 2010,

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_00]: what I did was I started talking

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to all the people that I knew and I just happened

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to know a lot of people because I was an actor

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I did maybe 40 to 50 shows

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in my professional career.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was not shy about putting myself out there

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and making offers to those people.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So to some extent, I didn't have to do

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of the lead generation

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that another Jim is going to have to do

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: because I just already knew a lot of people.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was also very good at what I did.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So I had a critical mass of clients

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: very quickly, all of whom were dragging

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: their friends in by their hair.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is interesting

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: because as things progressed,

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously the biggest change in marketing

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: over the past 15 even 10 years

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: is the advent of paid digital,

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: both paid Google ads and paid,

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll call it meta,

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but Facebook ads, Instagram ads.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, when that started happening

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: in 2015-2016,

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: we were very late at the party.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, even 2017-2018,

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: we ran ads.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't really know what we were doing.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So everybody talks about 2017

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: as these Halcyon days

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: where everyone was getting two dollar leads

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and everyone just showing up

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were just getting sold into it.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We totally missed that

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: because we didn't have any

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: fitness industry specific skill in it.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We had some people that had some experience

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: doing paid digital from other industries.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't say necessarily we did a bad job,

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but as an example of how not on it we were,

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: at least for me, for my role at that time,

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't even really...

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have any memory to the numbers.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how closely

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: we were looking at all that.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think Mark Fisher-Finn

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: has kind of missed out on that,

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: but a lot of gyms didn't.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And what's been interesting

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in the way things have changed,

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously in the past five to seven years

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: is those days are gone.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So what you're seeing now

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: is lead costs are a lot higher.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're in a market like New York City,

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I always like joke,

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like trying to pet a deer.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like trying to pet a deer

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: because everyone has just been so blasted

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: with paid digital marketing.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, everybody's in the game.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's funny, I saw a Instagram post

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of a gym consulting business the other day

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were...

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The content was was an interesting idea.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I'm going to Google 10 local businesses

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and see who's running ads

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and only one of the people running ads.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: ha ha ha ha!

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is another strange thing

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: about paid digital ads

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think marketing strategies in general,

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: they're highly market dependent.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: There are markets where people are just not burnt out

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're going to get cheaper leads,

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: people are going to be more trusting,

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_00]: they're going to be easier to move through the funnel.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're in midtown Manhattan,

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you're smoked.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not...

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's not that it doesn't work.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It totally works.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We still drive a lot of our business

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: from paid ads,

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but you have to be very sophisticated

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: with the strategy.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: People are pretty burnt out

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's going to cost you more money

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: than it will in a lot of other markets.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the costs

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I see with a lot of gym owners

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: if you came up at that time, right?

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: If you came up in 2017, 2018

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and you didn't really even mess much

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: with email marketing,

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you didn't really bother with talking to the people

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you already knew.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You certainly didn't spend a lot of time

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: building business partnerships

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: or going into parking lots

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and just talking to any strangers

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because at the time it didn't make sense.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It was the better use of your time and money.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like keep putting money

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in the Mark Zuckerberg money machine,

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: put a dollar in, get three dollars out.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Just keep doing over and over.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then what wound up happening was

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: every year as that's gotten

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00]: a bigger and a bigger and a bigger grind,

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: there are a lot of those gym owners

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: from that era.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think in some situations

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: never took the time,

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: if I'm being real, to force themselves

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to go out there and do the uncomfortable

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: other things that are, for the most part,

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00]: going to be a much slower return.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a longer tail

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: before we really start to see the results.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But they've got to go out there

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and start to develop the skills.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And if they don't, you're going to run into issues,

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly if you're in a marker page

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_00]: digital doesn't work the way that it does.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the newest gym owners

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: they're being born in quotes, he says,

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that are being born now.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, a lot of them will open up the gym.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: They know about training

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're going to go right to pay

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: digital right away.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes they don't really

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: understand how to run the gym,

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: like the operations aren't dialed in.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So then there it's a it's

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it's it's rough out there.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So then you have these like gym owners

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that like don't necessarily

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: know how to run a great gym

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: or how to do the sales, the follow up.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they're throwing money

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_00]: at these ad agencies,

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: some of which are fantastic.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of which are not as amazing

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's actually very hard to run

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: a Facebook ad agency.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So you see not a lot of people

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: want that job anymore

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because you're getting yelled at

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: by these gym owners that are like,

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm giving this money, your leads suck, right?

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, overall, I think it's all going

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it's all going as it should.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Ever the optimist, I think we'll get better at this.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, potential takeaway for listeners are,

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: yes, you need to pay digital strategy.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just curious to know if you run a gym,

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: if you what else are you doing

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: besides paid digital to grow it?

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then what are your numbers?

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Are you tracking it?

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: What sort of results are you getting

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: through these other things that you could do?

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, all of which are

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll plug the book again, Jim Markinssecretsbook.com.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of other things

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you can be doing to growing your gym

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: besides just giving money to the Mark Zuckerberg.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, awesome, man.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I just feel that maybe you can tell me if I'm wrong.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There's the fundamentals.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're right.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: They have a long retail, but, you know,

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: local business partnerships,

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: hosting events, doing a charity event once a year, right?

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Just, you know, being out and introducing yourself.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's really...

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what got when I started in 08.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what got us off the ground.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You had to.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I was super late.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah. And listen.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was super late.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like at a high level,

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's really simple.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unfortunately simple.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to generate new leads,

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: all right, let's say you're already talking to people,

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, you've already organized your contact database

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so that if you say hello to somebody in grocery store,

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: they know you have a gym

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're in contact with them

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: because even if they don't want to work with you,

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they might be a referral source.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say you've already...

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You've already done that.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's really three other ways to grow a gym.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You can pay for leads,

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_00]: give money to Google or Metta.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You can ask for referrals.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You can ask your clients, but everybody knows again,

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: like that's not an overnight thing number one.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you're like, hey, client,

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: go get me this thing.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you $1,000.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it doesn't work like that.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You should still do it.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have a lot of very strong opinions

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: about how to do that effectively.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would note,

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: if you don't have a lot of current clients,

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that's going to be of limited use to you.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the third strategy,

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the only thing you have left is meet strangers.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Meet strangers and it's going to require

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: putting yourself out there.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And that could be anything from hand-to-hand combat

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: in the Target or grocery store parking lot.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It could be, as you said,

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Eric running live events.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to get some scale,

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you go meet one business partner

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and if they'll play a ball,

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they will introduce you to their audience.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That can be a very powerful source,

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but they will, all of them besides

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: putting money in the meta or Google machine

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: will require you going and talking to strangers.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You can do it.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that's so dark.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you're going to have to talk to people.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But what I mean to say is

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to have to talk to people.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe in you.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We used to hold ourselves accountable.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So every Friday we had to come in,

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: my business partner and I

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: with a new business card of someone we met.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was it.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: If we didn't, we owed each other $20.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just like a consistent thing.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just made kind of fun.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like,

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you never knew what was going to happen,

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but you just got to do it consistently over time.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: With the last few minutes,

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Mark, give us an update on like what's going on for Q4.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You can be out speaking.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The book.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see here.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I will be so business unicorns

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: will have a retreat in Boston in mid-September.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll be there for the bats.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Depending when this goes live,

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: if anybody wants to contact me,

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: we usually have a couple extra seats

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that we might already be sold out.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But come find me.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll let you know.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Secondly, I'll be speaking to LA conference in September.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That'll be very fun and chance to meet with the rest of the system

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and connect a lot of the franchise owners,

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00]: which, you know,

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say in brief, that's been one of the coolest things about being a franchise.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to clock into your unit is just talking to other people

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to have the exact same businesses you would comparing benchmarks,

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: notes, KPIs.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And then from there,

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be speaking at Luca Josevara's event,

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: bigger ground summit in Seattle.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then that's all that's all I have for official work travel.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Other than that,

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yalj will be working on all those businesses,

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: keeping the balls in the area,

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: all balls in the air,

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but doing my best to be of service

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and support everybody that get to work with either as an employee

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: or as a client.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Quite all, man.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And people want to get hold of you.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, best way to do that these days.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you want to get hold of me personally,

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it's mark at businessforunicorns.com.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We're pretty active on Instagram.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you like Jim content stuff,

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you can follow us at Business for Unicorns.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And as we have mentioned this book,

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very, very proud.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's less than a 30 minute read.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I apologize if you like a lot of whimsy and personal branding

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and long elaborate stories.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: This is not that right?

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I was joking.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like not a book.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a power pamphlet.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a checklist on steroids.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you want a list of all the things you can do to grow your Jim,

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: if you go to Jimmarkingsecretsbook.com again,

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it's completely free.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll download it.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a great way to look through all the things you could do.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: My one copy out there,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: which is now in the updated intro to the book is

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: just don't do all of the things.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think one of the more common mistakes

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I tend to see after people really focusing on this

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: is they're trying to do everything

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and doing everything kind of half assy.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, this is still a thing

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to watch out my businesses.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So like you're not alone in this.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So physician, heal yourself.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would encourage you to read the book

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and then maybe just go all in on one or two things

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of doing 25 things sort of.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Awesome, man.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Mark, brother, it's always a pleasure.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You always doing good stuff,

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but you seem to stick kind of on someone of a linear path.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, Jim, Jim business stuff, man.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're helping the industry grow.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I always say it's like the gym wrong.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like I want to learn,

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: want to practice, I want to teach.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to learn on a practice and I want to teach.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I feel lucky to have a path where that is evolving

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in a way that I remain interested and excited

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and have the new thing to do, but still, you know, have some

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, hopefully building up some compound return

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: on some of the things I've been doing for a long time.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Right on.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, brother.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Ladies and gentlemen, Mark Fisher.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, wait, don't leave yet.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: This is your host, Eric Malzone.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Feminist.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_01]: If you did, I'm going to ask you to do three simple things.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate it.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_01]: iTunes, Spotify, Cast Box, whatever it may be.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Number two, please leave us a favorable review.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Number three, share, put on social media, talk about it

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[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_01]: as possible.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Simply go to the future of fitness.co.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You can subscribe to our newsletter there or you can simply get in touch

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: with me as I love to hear from our listeners.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Eric Malzone and this is the Future of Fitness.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Have a great day.