Jim Crowell & Jason Crowe - Proof3 & "Longevity Fitness"

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[00:02:09] All right, we are live.

[00:02:11] Jim, Jason, AKA the Jaycees, AKA the Sage House guys, welcome back to the Future of Fitness.

[00:02:17] It is always a pleasure.

[00:02:18] Oh man, I enjoy it.

[00:02:20] I don't know that Jason and I have done a combined Future Fitness, have we?

[00:02:25] We have not.

[00:02:26] We've done them individually.

[00:02:28] But this is our first together.

[00:02:30] It's our first polyamorous podcast.

[00:02:32] Oh yeah.

[00:02:33] What a great day.

[00:02:35] It sure is.

[00:02:37] Look at us being progressive.

[00:02:39] Yeah, it was amazing.

[00:02:41] So much to talk about with you guys.

[00:02:42] You got a lot cooking as always.

[00:02:44] And I think some of the great topics I'd love to cover today are maybe just a market update.

[00:02:49] As far as investors go, we're sitting in Q3 right now of 2024.

[00:02:52] It's been, once again, an interesting year so far for the fitness and wellness industry.

[00:02:57] The hype cycles continue.

[00:02:59] All kinds of normal things, but then some unusual things that seem to be pretty sticky and, you know, transitional for the industry overall.

[00:03:05] So I want to give an insight to that.

[00:03:07] I want to talk about proof three, what you guys are developing in the longevity space and just your overall take on longevity as a category, as you know, what kind of appetite is there from the actual consumer?

[00:03:19] Not just what we think as industry folks, we tend to get pretty hot on things.

[00:03:22] So lots to cover is the point.

[00:03:24] So let's start with, you guys want to give us a little bit of a market update?

[00:03:27] Like where as investors, you know, what are you seeing in the market so far this year as you're going into TQ4?

[00:03:34] Any interesting takeaways or trends that you would, you would notify people?

[00:03:38] Yeah, I'll jump in first.

[00:03:40] I'm hearing a lot of talk, meaning I'm hearing a lot of people who are wondering what's coming next and what this feels like to me.

[00:03:48] I forever ago, I was a trader. And so this is reminding me of a, of a calm moment where people are expecting a lot of volatility soon.

[00:03:58] That's what it feels like to me.

[00:04:00] I'm not suggesting that the volatility means we're going down.

[00:04:03] I'm just suggesting that people are more posturing for volatility.

[00:04:06] If you look at 10 year treasury, it's like a lots of people think that those rates are going down.

[00:04:12] Like historic numbers of people think that those rates are going down.

[00:04:15] I think what we're seeing market wise is a lot of secondary transactions, meaning instead of just raising money with new shares, people are being bought out of their existing shares.

[00:04:28] There's a lot of cash changing hands in secondaries, which is interesting.

[00:04:32] And at this moment, there are still not a lot of IPOs happening, though the mind bodies of the world just announced that they intend to go public in the next 12 to 18 months, which is quite interesting or re go public in the next 12 to 18 months.

[00:04:47] And so I think there are a lot of people waiting for big financial things to happen.

[00:04:53] Large M and a, you know, at the private equity level, large companies going into IPO now fitness and wellness, right?

[00:05:01] Mind body would clearly be one of the big players that people are looking for.

[00:05:05] And I think that people, you know, I saw some news around, I think this one, I can't remember who reported it, but, you know, solid core might be looking to sell berries might be looking to sell you getting some bigger players.

[00:05:17] If those transactions close, I think that's becoming a signal and everything has to flow down in my opinion, right?

[00:05:25] Like until those dollars get clear, there will be fewer dollars at the venture stage and at the pre-seed and seed stage.

[00:05:34] And I still think that a lot of investors are feeling a little burned from investments made in 17, 18, 19, 20, right?

[00:05:44] And then the crash of connected fitness.

[00:05:47] So I think that that's happening, but I'll say one more piece on this.

[00:05:51] There are, well, the market is really maturing.

[00:05:54] So lots of competition is beginning to happen sort of at series A, B level right now.

[00:06:03] And I think what you're going to see is you're going to see really good companies begin to emerge.

[00:06:12] Like you're going to see more publicity.

[00:06:14] Look at like, and I'm not making a stance on good, bad or indifferent athletic greens, you know, having major, major ads, you know, on major news or excuse me, major TV channels.

[00:06:24] That's a big deal for the space.

[00:06:27] And so the more you see of that, you see Viore, you see a big athletic apparel companies coming out, like companies are getting bigger and the world is seeing more of them, which I think is interesting.

[00:06:39] What about you, Jason?

[00:06:39] Any thoughts on the maturation of the market?

[00:06:41] I think we've also got some other stuff going on on the franchise side where a lot of franchisees that maybe, you know, jumped into the water in 2021 when they saw people running back towards in person are starting to get burned by some of those.

[00:06:58] And we're hearing lots of stories of smaller players, not only franchisors, but franchisees that bought into specific brands that didn't get the sport they were looking for and now have invested a pile of money.

[00:07:10] And now, you know, those facilities are closing.

[00:07:12] So there's kind of two things happening in the fitness industry right now.

[00:07:17] All the things that Jim said talk about, you know, people looking back and the masses looking back towards fitness as an area of opportunity, an area of investment.

[00:07:26] But at the same time, there's some, you know, residual impacts of early and poor investments, maybe some folks made on a more local level that are going to start to come to light, we think, over the next 12 to 18 months.

[00:07:39] So that even creates other opportunity that we can talk a little bit about.

[00:07:44] But I think there's kind of two sides to this coin going on right now.

[00:07:48] Yeah, interesting.

[00:07:49] So, I mean, when you talk about fitness industry people or when you talk to fitness industry people, there are certain trends that seem undeniable, right?

[00:07:56] There's longevity, there's women's health, there's strength training overall, GLP ones, AI.

[00:08:03] Those are like the big five that you hear about most of the time when you go to conferences or you see podcasts and things like that.

[00:08:09] But what about from the investor standpoint?

[00:08:11] Like, do investors give a shit about those things?

[00:08:13] Or is that just a thing we talk about like in our own little ecosystems, but, you know, the money's not actually flowing that way anyway?

[00:08:19] We've developed what I believe is a pretty rigorous decision model when we're looking at investments.

[00:08:25] And one of the things that we had to add in to that decision model, particularly around when someone says AI, is it your own artificial intelligence or are you just bolting on to open AI?

[00:08:37] And when it's bolting on to open AI, that, you know, dramatically affects our, you know, interest in that product because obviously the product is really open AI and they're just, they're skinning it.

[00:08:48] You know, I don't know what you think, Jim, but I don't think we've gotten as many in the last couple months coming forward with kind of open AI or coming forward with AI as what they're driving towards.

[00:08:58] But there's really an opportunity.

[00:09:01] And again, we can talk more about this, about leveraging more artificial intelligence and in another conversation, machine learning towards building better fitness outcomes for consumers.

[00:09:13] So it's not that these technologies are throwaways.

[00:09:15] They just need to be used in a different way than I think we've seen so far.

[00:09:20] The one that I would love to be able to figure out and, you know, Eric, you know this from my time at Precision Nutrition is figuring out a way of leveraging this technology to be able to do something with nutrition.

[00:09:30] Because that still is the area for so many people that we can get them to show up at a gym.

[00:09:35] We can get them to pick up heavy stuff.

[00:09:37] We can get them to take a run.

[00:09:38] But that food component is still the biggest, you know, barrier for a lot of folks to that's keeping them from getting to where they want to go.

[00:09:46] So that's where I think AI has a huge opportunity.

[00:09:49] Let me take what I hope is an interesting stance on the AI conversation and say, I actually think there are going to be some unbelievably interesting companies built.

[00:10:00] On open AI or Lama 3 or, you know, four or five, six, seven, you know, or Gemini.

[00:10:07] I think what Jason is describing, though, is you have to temper your expectations of how big those companies could be.

[00:10:15] So if you look at the concept of AI or the market of AI, is it an LLM like open AI or Gemini or Lama 3 or, you know, even get into perplexity, etc.

[00:10:28] Or is it a layer on top of that?

[00:10:32] Those to me are two very viable markets, but they're very different.

[00:10:36] And so I think what we will likely see in fitness is a combination of utilizing one of the LLMs mixed with your own machine learning and AI additional elements to get locked in on what your customer is doing.

[00:10:52] Because one of the things about AI that's so important and that hasn't been solved yet, frankly, is how do you have memory?

[00:11:00] Right. So if if I had an assistant that truly knew everything about the entire entirety of my life and I had all this LLM capability and I had the right suggestions and all my assessment data that I had done in and out of the gym or the hospital, etc.

[00:11:18] Was a part of this. That is unbelievably powerful.

[00:11:22] But obviously that is a massive undertaking for somebody to go build.

[00:11:27] Do I imagine that one company owns all of that from very, very global to very, very granular?

[00:11:35] No, I don't.

[00:11:36] And so I think that if you temper your expectations about what this company is, AI is absolutely going to be a hugely important element of all things fitness and wellness, but it's going to show up in very different ways.

[00:11:50] And so I think you just have to pay attention to what you're looking for, what the AI does, and then just be clear on what they have developed or they haven't.

[00:11:59] You know, what we what we do see, unfortunately, too much is somebody saying they are an AI company and they're not, you know, and it's like, OK, that's fine.

[00:12:08] But I need to understand what you really are, what you've been able to make an investment decision on your other four.

[00:12:14] I won't go into all of them. Yes, those I think are very real topics right now.

[00:12:20] And the point that I will make on all of them in one sentence, my friends who have nothing to do with fitness and wellness are all talking about them now.

[00:12:33] All of them. And this is not me bringing up this topic.

[00:12:36] This is them. Yeah.

[00:12:38] Not even necessarily asking me a question.

[00:12:40] It's, hey, did you read, you know, a Tia's book?

[00:12:44] Hey, are you doing cold plunge?

[00:12:46] Hey, how do you live 20 more years without your knees blowing up?

[00:12:50] You know, it's like they are asking these questions a lot right now.

[00:12:55] And so obviously, Jason and I are the consummate optimists all the time.

[00:12:59] I would say that we believe long term.

[00:13:01] This is a very, very real and growing space.

[00:13:04] What's happening, in my opinion, is a maturation process of this industry.

[00:13:10] And you're going to see which companies are real or not based upon more than just one feature, more than just one team member.

[00:13:19] You're going to see if they can build companies or not.

[00:13:21] And I know that that's a little bit gray, but it's the truth.

[00:13:24] I think the important thing to add here is the change in user behavior that we've seen.

[00:13:34] And this is a post-pandemic thing.

[00:13:36] So keeping in mind that historically, Jim's heard me tell this story lots of times, but historically, the highest utilization of fitness centers happens typically when people in their 20s into their early 30s.

[00:13:48] That's the time. And then it kind of starts to trickle off.

[00:13:51] And then there's kind of a slight uptick typically when people are in their mid-60s.

[00:13:55] That's historically how it's gone.

[00:13:57] And then post-pandemic, we saw this wild thing happen where folks that were 35 plus all of a sudden started running back into fitness facilities, seeking out personal training, looking for ways to getting involved, phoning Jim and I, asking about cold plunges, that kind of thing.

[00:14:13] Because there's a real interest in this idea about how people are going to age.

[00:14:18] And there's a number of theories as to why that was and why it was post-pandemic.

[00:14:22] But this is something that we haven't seen before because now we have all of these folks that are in kind of key income earning years of their life that arguably have the most amount of disposable income that are very interested in this topic.

[00:14:35] So they're looking for ways that they can participate and they can jump in very quickly because they don't have to do it in the cheapest possible way.

[00:14:42] And I think there's a number of beneficiaries that come from that, from traditional health clubs, but also like we've been starting to talk about, kind of upstart products that are more niched and nuanced that can help people with something more specific.

[00:14:56] So I think the maturation is certainly a piece of it, but also post-pandemic, there's some interesting components that have gotten us to today that I think are only going to accelerate this industry's growth over the next 10 or 15 years.

[00:15:09] And if we go philosophical for a second, if we think about what the most painful slash the biggest upside feeling in the world is, it's death and it's status.

[00:15:22] Or those are at least in the top four or five, right?

[00:15:27] And so a lot of people who talk about longevity want to look better naked, be more capable, feel more strong, all of those things, right?

[00:15:37] There is an element to status for many of the people doing longevity right now.

[00:15:42] Many, many, many people.

[00:15:44] And I have somebody very close to me working on a really interesting news story about how people are literally building longevity cities and the whole nine yards.

[00:15:54] I know you guys have seen the same thing.

[00:15:56] And if you start to think about that, there's a huge element of status in that conversation.

[00:16:04] Sure.

[00:16:05] Good, bad, or indifferent.

[00:16:06] And so you put that onto Jason's comment about how people's perceptions and how people's behaviors have shifted post-COVID, but that's always going to be an underlying desire.

[00:16:16] And so it's very easy to market to people, hey, what's longevity?

[00:16:21] You don't want to die, right?

[00:16:23] It's like, oh, I don't want to die.

[00:16:25] You know what I mean?

[00:16:26] Or it's, oh, I don't want to not be able to have sex anymore.

[00:16:30] Right?

[00:16:31] Like, you just ask yourself that question.

[00:16:33] It's like, ooh, that one stings a little bit.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:36] And so let me shove these pills down your throat.

[00:16:38] Let me stick this needle in your arm.

[00:16:40] Let me, you know, there's a million different ways that you can approach it.

[00:16:43] But the touch point is it feels painful or I feel like I'm not achieving something very important to me psychologically.

[00:16:52] And I'm going to leave you, Eric, I'm going to leave you one final thing on this.

[00:16:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:56] One final piece and then we'll get on.

[00:16:58] This was a bad idea having the two of us on because we'll just riff back and forth to the next hour and a half.

[00:17:03] This is what a team meeting looks like.

[00:17:04] Yeah, exactly.

[00:17:05] Exactly.

[00:17:05] We should record those.

[00:17:07] I spent four years working at the Canadian subsidiary of LabCorp.

[00:17:12] And the number one reason that people actually don't seek care from a general practitioner is they know that typically the next step in any sort of assessment is that they need to get blood drawn.

[00:17:23] And it is for that reason alone that they won't go to the doctor because they know the doctor is going to send them to a LabCorp request and they're going to get poked.

[00:17:33] So they stay away from going to the doctor to find out what's wrong with them.

[00:17:36] But we brought GLP-1s out and people had no problem.

[00:17:42] Getting poked because they saw the benefit was I will get poked to lose this 20 pounds, 30 pounds, 50 pounds that I've been struggling with.

[00:17:51] So we have seen a massive shift in what people are willing to tolerate and what people are willing to do to be able to going back to Jim's part, achieve that status, get to that end result that they're looking for.

[00:18:03] And if it's not dying, they're willing to do a whole bunch of things.

[00:18:07] Anyway.

[00:18:07] Yeah.

[00:18:08] Totally.

[00:18:08] My belief on the psychological component too, I think it has to be something generational because the boomers are aging into basically they're dying.

[00:18:18] Right?

[00:18:18] Like that's just the age group they're in.

[00:18:19] And I think a lot of people like myself and a lot of my friends are starting to see how people actually die.

[00:18:26] And Jim, we were talking about this prior to the recording is like the type of death that you have the last 10 years.

[00:18:32] I think Atiyah calls it the, what does he call the last decade?

[00:18:34] Like the pivotal decade or something like that.

[00:18:37] I can't remember.

[00:18:37] I honestly don't remember.

[00:18:38] Yeah.

[00:18:39] It's something like that.

[00:18:40] But it's like, how are those last 10 years of your life?

[00:18:43] And I think once you start to see it in real life play out, it's very motivating, right?

[00:18:49] Like, you know, I don't want to spend 10 years just slowly or, you know, mental decay, things like that.

[00:18:55] Like those become very real.

[00:18:57] Once you start to see, we have this huge generation of boomers that are now kind of passing into this final stage of life.

[00:19:02] And we're all here watching.

[00:19:03] And I think that's something about longevity.

[00:19:05] That's very interesting.

[00:19:06] And one of the things I want to ask you guys, because you kind of alluded to it, but I want to ask it directly is when, when a consumer actually says, and cause you guys have done the research here, you kind of heard a lot of input coming in through what you're doing at proof three.

[00:19:18] When they say, oh, I want longevity as a goal.

[00:19:20] What does that actually, what do they really want?

[00:19:22] I mean, you mentioned like, yeah, they want to look good at status.

[00:19:26] It's, you know, sex drive.

[00:19:27] It's looking good with your, your, your clothes off, uh, all of those things.

[00:19:31] But is that, is that what they're getting at really?

[00:19:33] I can, I can certainly hit on maybe two levels of this.

[00:19:36] There's certainly surface level.

[00:19:38] And by surface level, I mean, it might be what they initially think that they want, but with just a little bit of question asking, you can typically find out a lot more.

[00:19:49] And so in my opinion, let me go broad and then I'll go narrow.

[00:19:53] And I mean, this is the phrase that we're using in proof three.

[00:19:56] They want to live better, longer, right?

[00:19:58] Like full stop.

[00:19:59] That's, that's what they want.

[00:20:01] Now, the second that you start to dig into individuals, that might mean a little something different.

[00:20:06] It might mean something different male to female.

[00:20:08] It might mean something different 35 year old to 75 year old, but generally speaking, they are after one of a couple things, right?

[00:20:16] Like yes.

[00:20:17] Aesthetics matter a lot, particularly younger, but it's mattering later and later capability.

[00:20:24] I hear constantly.

[00:20:25] And so you could put the strength element, the mobility element, the functional element into that category.

[00:20:34] But I want to do blank so that I can do blank, right?

[00:20:39] That is a huge element of this.

[00:20:41] And while yes, I think they want to live longer.

[00:20:45] I think the better element, at least in more of the conversations that I'm having, it's more of the better, longer piece that people seem more connected to.

[00:20:57] Now, there are certainly some folks that are going after 150 years old, like that's 150 or bust, right?

[00:21:03] But I do think that most people today view reality as I could probably live to be 80, maybe 90 really well.

[00:21:15] And I think that is really intriguing for them.

[00:21:18] I think that to Jim's point, everyone's going to be different about what their interpretation is of longevity and whether it's using the ATIA thing, whether it's health span or lifespan, whatever the thing is they have in their head.

[00:21:32] But through all the conversations, and I've had literally hundreds at this point, when we get into the folks that want to start, they'll start by saying things like, they might say something specific, like, I want to be able to lose this last 20 pounds because every time I look at myself in the mirror, I'm just like, you're better than that type thing.

[00:21:53] But what I'm starting to see for folks is this hyper specificity on a few things.

[00:22:00] They'll say things like, my kid is eight, and I want to make sure that I can outrun that kid for as long as possible.

[00:22:09] Or I know that my dream is to do Machu Picchu.

[00:22:13] And I want to make sure that I'm capable enough, likely when I'm in my mid-50s, to be able to do it.

[00:22:20] So instead of kind of this broad, you know, I just want to, you know, I think ultimately Jim is right.

[00:22:26] It's this idea of living better or longer, and that's what we're really building Proof 3 around.

[00:22:31] The better portion is going to be specific to every single person.

[00:22:36] And they've got an image in their head.

[00:22:38] It's kind of like when you ask someone what a widget is to them, everybody has a different idea.

[00:22:44] Longevity is kind of fitting into the exact same thing.

[00:22:47] It's important to note that people are starting life later than they were even a generation before.

[00:22:55] Like people are starting families much later, they're having kids much later.

[00:22:58] You know, remember the Golden Girls were in their early 40s.

[00:23:01] And when you watch, when you watch that clips of that show now, you think those people were in like their 60s.

[00:23:08] But that's the way people in their 40s looked 40 years ago, 35 years ago.

[00:23:13] So the whole concept of the way that we're aging is fundamentally changing.

[00:23:20] So I think we are trying to get ahead of that and try to work with those people to be able to help them,

[00:23:27] going back to what Jim said, live better longer.

[00:23:30] Two pieces to add specifically what Jason just said.

[00:23:35] To go back to COVID, a lot of things shifted for people where life, mortality, you know,

[00:23:42] I'll use the word capability again, became much more important overnight.

[00:23:48] And it became very important, visceral, right?

[00:23:52] Like, I need this.

[00:23:53] This is actually more important to me than money.

[00:23:56] It's more important to me than nights out.

[00:23:59] This is really important.

[00:24:00] And by the way, this is one of the reasons you see all the reports about 28-year-olds going to the gym more.

[00:24:06] It's like, fuck drinking.

[00:24:08] You know what I mean?

[00:24:09] Like, why would I do that if I'm going to die when I'm 42?

[00:24:13] You know, like a lot changed right then and there in COVID.

[00:24:17] And there aren't that many events that do that, right?

[00:24:20] Sub war scenarios.

[00:24:23] And then the second piece is a lot of people, and I mean serious numbers, are actually more unhealthy at 35 than the generation before us.

[00:24:33] I mean, think about that for a second.

[00:24:36] You know, so they're getting sicker earlier even if they're living longer.

[00:24:42] And I think people are very afraid of that.

[00:24:45] Very afraid.

[00:24:46] And so they want to avoid that at serious cost to them.

[00:24:51] Here's my question.

[00:24:52] I mean, you know, being an operator at the gym level and doing thousands of consultations with potential clients and clients over the years, like, a lot of the stuff that I'm hearing, like, isn't that new?

[00:25:03] Like, a lot of my clients said, I want to be able to chase my grandkids.

[00:25:07] I want to be able to climb Machu Picchu when I'm 65.

[00:25:10] Like, you know, I want to look good enough so that my wife wants to have sex with me still.

[00:25:15] Like, these are real conversations that I had multiple times over many years.

[00:25:19] But now we just have a tagline for it.

[00:25:21] So it's like, has it really changed, I guess, is the question?

[00:25:27] Can I jump in first?

[00:25:28] You go first.

[00:25:29] Go ahead.

[00:25:29] All right.

[00:25:30] This is a constant problem.

[00:25:31] Go ahead.

[00:25:32] Yes, yes, definitely.

[00:25:35] And here's why.

[00:25:36] I don't think that the underlying principles have changed.

[00:25:40] And here's maybe where our perspective to some might feel a little old school, but we're putting a heck of a lot of new stuff around it to make it feel quite different.

[00:25:51] But if you think about you as a gym owner for a number of years, you need people to be stronger.

[00:25:57] You need them to be more cardiovascularly capable.

[00:26:00] You need them to be more mobile.

[00:26:01] You need them to eat generally well, not too much food.

[00:26:05] All of those things.

[00:26:07] I still deeply believe that might be 97% of the longevity equation.

[00:26:17] 97%.

[00:26:18] Maybe more.

[00:26:19] Okay.

[00:26:19] I'll give you that.

[00:26:20] I'll give you that.

[00:26:20] And so I think where Jason and I deeply agree on this is we don't like when people start from the opposite end, meaning they try to outrun death.

[00:26:34] Right.

[00:26:34] And by that, I mean, again, sticking things in your arms or pills down your throat all the time without changing your behavior.

[00:26:43] If you think about what longevity really is and go to the hundred year olds, right?

[00:26:48] It's many, many, many, many decades of good lifestyle.

[00:26:52] Right.

[00:26:52] That's not even a full sentence.

[00:26:55] Many, many, many decades of good lifestyle.

[00:26:57] Now, the thing that I think makes it different, Eric, is that there is technology and there are drugs and there is medical interventions that do help.

[00:27:08] Like, we're seeing it.

[00:27:10] This is very, very real.

[00:27:12] However, if you don't change your behaviors, that's one moment in time that isn't going to give you decades and decades and decades of activity or eating well.

[00:27:24] And that will erode you if you don't have those kinds of behaviors.

[00:27:28] So I'm all for the extra interventions if the 97% is in play.

[00:27:34] Now, I will say one caveat to all this.

[00:27:36] Because if somebody does something, you know, that is a big intervention and it changes their behavior.

[00:27:44] Okay.

[00:27:46] All for it.

[00:27:47] I just think, though, that many people are going to take the pill, whatever it is, you know, the metaphorical pill, and they're not going to change their behavior.

[00:27:55] And that's going to be it's not going to help.

[00:27:58] A couple things.

[00:27:59] Nobody in the blue zones are getting their telomere links or links.

[00:28:04] Look at.

[00:28:07] To Jim's point, I think that I've had numerous conversations with folks that are like, I don't get it.

[00:28:15] I'm in the gym five days a week.

[00:28:18] You know, I'm working out really hard.

[00:28:21] I just I still have this gut, that kind of thing.

[00:28:24] I'm like, okay, perfect.

[00:28:25] Let's get into nutrition.

[00:28:26] I eat really well.

[00:28:27] I really well.

[00:28:29] Okay.

[00:28:29] What does Friday night look like?

[00:28:32] Well, Friday night, you know, we have a little bit of a little bit of pizza at the house.

[00:28:37] I'm like, okay, tell me about last Friday night.

[00:28:39] Well, we had pizza.

[00:28:40] And then, you know, we tacked on the wings.

[00:28:41] And then, you know, I had four beers and yada, yada, yada.

[00:28:45] I'm like, okay, that's cool.

[00:28:46] That's Friday.

[00:28:46] What did Saturday look like?

[00:28:48] Saturday, we went out.

[00:28:49] It was my, you know, this, that, and the other thing.

[00:28:51] And they list all of this, this stuff.

[00:28:55] And, you know, they're going to walk me through a 10,000 calorie weekend that they've had.

[00:29:02] And then their thought is they get back into it and they're back in the gym, but they don't

[00:29:05] see that, that there's actually a very deep connection there.

[00:29:09] Ask them about sleep.

[00:29:10] How many hours of sleep do you get?

[00:29:11] Oh, about four hours.

[00:29:12] Typically, that's all I'm getting.

[00:29:13] That's all I need.

[00:29:14] I mean, okay, well, there's, there's strike two.

[00:29:16] And then, you know, other kind of recovery stuff that we get into.

[00:29:20] So I guess the point being is there are things that you can do.

[00:29:24] And I go back to Jim's point at the end of the day, this comes down to behavior change

[00:29:28] and whatever that thing is, that's going to make someone become more consistent and more

[00:29:32] work towards healthier habits.

[00:29:35] Let's go for my belief.

[00:29:37] Our belief is that you don't need to spend $40,000 a year to do that.

[00:29:41] But for some people, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.

[00:29:44] We think there's, you know, principally much easier things that you can do at with consistency

[00:29:49] that will get you to where you, where you want to go.

[00:29:52] One of the things that really opened my eyes, I think this might've been in Rockefeller's

[00:29:59] biography, Titan, is that what is considered to be the greatest medical advancement, you

[00:30:07] know, that led to longevity of just pure lifespan was the cleanliness of hospitals.

[00:30:14] Right.

[00:30:15] Because what was killing people was infection, et cetera.

[00:30:18] Right.

[00:30:19] And so I'm not suggesting that we don't have unbelievable innovations coming.

[00:30:23] And I think Jason and I will be the first to say, you want to take advantage of those,

[00:30:28] but it can't be isolated.

[00:30:30] Yep.

[00:30:31] It just can't be.

[00:30:32] And that's why Atia, et cetera, has built such a good platform on strength and cardio

[00:30:38] and good food and mobility, all of that.

[00:30:41] Like you need that as the base.

[00:30:43] If you have any intention of living better longer, you have, you have to.

[00:30:47] Now, one of the things I think is really interesting is there's a lot of interesting

[00:30:51] technology that we're clearly trying to lever some of it, right.

[00:30:55] That can help you understand all of this stuff.

[00:30:59] Yep.

[00:30:59] Right.

[00:30:59] So if I have data as a coach that can tell me what's really going on, I might need a

[00:31:07] half a sentence in the context of a class or in the context of a conversation online or

[00:31:14] after class, I can say one sentence and kind of tweak a behavior.

[00:31:18] And that might send you on a three month, you know, good little journey.

[00:31:22] And it's like, but that's what this is, right?

[00:31:24] Like that's it's adaptation.

[00:31:26] You're just constantly adapting to all these things.

[00:31:29] So we love having access to all this information.

[00:31:32] We just don't want to throw it onto the customer and say, you got to do all this work and you

[00:31:38] got to do all these surveys and you got to score all this stuff, right?

[00:31:41] Like that's just a lot that at least in our opinions, from what we've seen on hundreds,

[00:31:46] if not thousands of companies, people don't want to do.

[00:31:49] Yeah.

[00:31:50] Right.

[00:31:50] So if you can't, to Jason's point on LabCorp, if you can't get somebody to take their blood

[00:31:54] just to understand these things, good luck with asking them every day to run through a

[00:32:02] battery of tests.

[00:32:03] It's not happening.

[00:32:06] So, I mean, we've, we've been on a number of podcasts.

[00:32:08] We always say user experience matters a lot.

[00:32:12] Why is this any different?

[00:32:14] Yeah.

[00:32:15] So let's, let's get into that.

[00:32:17] So the proof three, maybe let's start with the fundamental premise of what you guys are

[00:32:22] doing.

[00:32:22] She probably outlined numerous times, just not directly here.

[00:32:25] And then what is the user experience?

[00:32:27] What is the client experience?

[00:32:28] What are you guys shooting for here?

[00:32:29] Yeah.

[00:32:30] I hope I do this.

[00:32:31] Okay.

[00:32:31] So Jason doesn't get upset with me.

[00:32:34] So I think the first piece he's going to crush it.

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:38] He's got this.

[00:32:39] The first piece is that we are longevity fitness, Eric.

[00:32:43] And I think that's a big distinction we want to make.

[00:32:45] We're not trying to be medical.

[00:32:47] So we've got really good partners and really good advisors who are unbelievable on the medical

[00:32:52] side.

[00:32:53] We don't believe that that is our unique value add though.

[00:32:56] We have touch points to it and our experience can get to it.

[00:33:00] It's just not in our physical facilities or our online coaching.

[00:33:04] That's not where we sit.

[00:33:06] So if you start there, the outcome that we're going after is for people to live better longer,

[00:33:13] full stop.

[00:33:14] From that though, our experience is designed to directly make that happen.

[00:33:20] So if you look at the structure of it, we have brick and mortar gyms and we have online

[00:33:26] coaching.

[00:33:27] That's how this thing is put together.

[00:33:28] If you take our gyms, you will walk in, you will do group training.

[00:33:32] Why?

[00:33:33] Because we think community connection and engagement with really good hospitality will get you to

[00:33:39] come back more and it will make you have more intentful effort when you work out.

[00:33:45] And we think intent is a very important element to build consistency for a long, long period of

[00:33:50] time.

[00:33:51] Our technology though, will allow you to have a customized program within a set of patterns

[00:33:58] so that you feel like you're doing the same workout as your friends on the floor, but you

[00:34:02] have just a little bit different type of program so that, you know, you have a 30 year old shoulder

[00:34:09] injury.

[00:34:09] You're not doing something that might, you know, be a press overhead.

[00:34:13] So within that, just to put a visual on it, got high end, the Laco racks with cable stacks,

[00:34:20] you know, like it looks good in this facility.

[00:34:22] You are doing strength training for 30 minutes.

[00:34:25] You're doing cardiovascular training for 30 minutes every time.

[00:34:28] So we want you in that realm where you are doing good, solid, principled strength training

[00:34:35] and then good, solid, principled, and both of them progressive cardiovascular training.

[00:34:41] What's really cool though, is that you then have a personal coach outside of the gym and

[00:34:48] our technology is the first ever scalable assessment at a group training level that can bring all

[00:34:55] of these elements together and then that feeds the coach all of this information so that they

[00:35:01] can synthesize it and they can have the conversation with you.

[00:35:05] So you're getting fun and engaging and beneficial group training with a personal coach who is

[00:35:10] unbelievably armed with information about you so that they can help you when lifestyle changes

[00:35:17] get in the way, when you got tough work environments, when you're traveling two months in a row, right?

[00:35:23] So our thought is to take the best of individual training with group training and then stack

[00:35:28] a layer of technology on top of it for the members, the coaches, the gym floor, and then

[00:35:33] the gym owners and say, this is a longevity fitness experience that should help you live

[00:35:38] better long.

[00:35:39] Do you Jason?

[00:35:40] Boom.

[00:35:40] Boom.

[00:35:41] Yeah.

[00:35:41] You feel great about that.

[00:35:42] I feel phenomenal about that.

[00:35:44] So in the group class setting is that there's coaches on floor, right?

[00:35:49] Helping you through that or how's it?

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:50] Okay.

[00:35:50] And it's a set time.

[00:35:51] I show up at nine.

[00:35:53] Like, yeah.

[00:35:54] Yes.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:55] And that's very purposeful.

[00:35:57] We want it that way.

[00:35:59] This is not a scaling mechanism.

[00:36:01] This is a, we believe that this will get you to come back and enjoy the experience more,

[00:36:06] which we are huge believers that you need to enjoy the daily act of fitness.

[00:36:12] Yep.

[00:36:13] So, you know, we've been in great individual models in the past.

[00:36:17] However, we found that lots of people don't connect as well to them.

[00:36:21] There are certainly certain people who do, but more people in our experience much prefer

[00:36:26] a group environment.

[00:36:28] And when they do, when you can give it to them, but add in elements of the personality or excuse

[00:36:35] me, the personal side and add an elements of all of this information that both the member

[00:36:40] and the coach can see that brings the connection to what they're doing and the purpose of what

[00:36:46] they're doing to a very different level without blowing up the fun of the experience.

[00:36:50] It's trying to, what we're essentially trying to do is personalize a group fitness model.

[00:36:57] And to Jim's point, we're doing that in a couple of different ways.

[00:37:00] Number one, we're, we're, we're taking the, all the benefits of group fitness, right?

[00:37:04] We all know group fitness is fun and it's actually really fun for people in our kind

[00:37:07] of core demo.

[00:37:08] So we want people to show up because coming back to behavior change, we know that people

[00:37:12] are going to want to come for these group fitness classes and they're going to get 60

[00:37:16] minutes of training, 30 minutes in the strength, 30 minutes of cardio.

[00:37:21] And again, there's a whole technology layer to, to connect all this stuff and make a very

[00:37:26] deeply tech enabled experience that's super engaging for folks.

[00:37:30] But what makes this really exciting is there's kind of two pieces that Jim had mentioned.

[00:37:34] One on the technology side through this assessment, we're capturing a whole bunch of information

[00:37:39] about you from a baseline perspective and the coach gets that information so they know

[00:37:44] where you're at.

[00:37:45] But where the, where, where the magic comes is when we reassess.

[00:37:49] Because now we're in a situation where me as the coach can come to you and say, Eric,

[00:37:54] not only have you attended 12 classes in the last month, which is amazing, great consistency,

[00:37:59] but also on our reassessment, I can see that you've gotten 15% stronger on this particular

[00:38:06] movement again, because we're now quantifying something that historically wasn't really

[00:38:11] quantifiable.

[00:38:12] You were just saying, okay, I've added more plates onto the bar.

[00:38:14] I know I'm getting stronger, but using some of the technology that we're talking about,

[00:38:18] we're going to be able to take all of that information, put it into a member experience

[00:38:22] that they're going to be able to keep track of.

[00:38:24] And the coach is going to be able to keep track of.

[00:38:26] That's the fitness stuff.

[00:38:28] Now, the pieces that they don't necessarily want to share in a group setting is probably

[00:38:33] the nutrition and the lifestyle stuff.

[00:38:35] So sitting and having a conversation with a group that I sit in that corner and eat ice cream

[00:38:39] every night is probably not something I want to share as a group.

[00:38:42] And that's where the personal coach comes in because they can be the one having a conversation

[00:38:46] and nudging someone around those more positive behaviors that when compounded with what they're

[00:38:51] doing inside of the fitness facility is really where the thing starts to spin.

[00:38:56] And that's where we ultimately get the proof that the whole thing is working because you

[00:39:00] are that proof.

[00:39:02] And Eric, because you owned a gym, you're going to love this.

[00:39:07] I was going to ask you a question.

[00:39:07] I'm just going to tell you every month as a member, you can do an assessment on your

[00:39:14] own.

[00:39:14] You don't need a coach.

[00:39:16] You schedule it yourself and it takes 12 minutes and we get the whole picture.

[00:39:21] So when you log into your member app, all this information is at your fingertips.

[00:39:25] Now, we'd like to think that we've set this up and designed it in a very simple way so

[00:39:30] that the member doesn't get overwhelmed.

[00:39:32] But what we're really going for is to say, Hey, what's your pulse?

[00:39:35] That's our score, right?

[00:39:37] Your pulse is blank.

[00:39:39] And that is a long-term trending thing.

[00:39:41] We're not suggesting that it matters what it is Tuesday or Thursday or last Friday.

[00:39:47] We're suggesting that this is a long-term trending thing that we want to move in the right direction.

[00:39:52] So if you have that, the coach is the one doing the majority of the synthesis to understand

[00:39:59] what should we do about this?

[00:40:01] And that's part of the service.

[00:40:02] And at the end of the day, it's about 300 bucks a month.

[00:40:08] And so all of that, right?

[00:40:11] Like all of you have a fully personal coach on assessments, et cetera, group training,

[00:40:16] unlimited classes, 300 bucks a month.

[00:40:18] That was a huge element for us was to get into the general population price point.

[00:40:24] I understand it's not $10 a month, right?

[00:40:26] But in terms of like the term longevity is not $40,000 a year.

[00:40:33] And so for us, we had to have a concept that really hit into a huge subsection of the population.

[00:40:40] And that's the path we're going with.

[00:40:43] Yeah.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:44] And I presume there's some subjective measures in there, right?

[00:40:48] There's the kind of the surveying that you can pull from the clients or the coaches will extract them just through basic stuff.

[00:40:53] And every single rep and set is also tracked in gym.

[00:40:59] It doesn't require the member to track anything outside of the gym.

[00:41:03] But when they're in the gym, we get the information.

[00:41:05] And so that is then tracked versus the assessment.

[00:41:08] So what did you tangibly do versus what are your results in the assessment is what we're really after.

[00:41:15] Is that tracked through like movement recognition or how are you guys tracking that?

[00:41:20] Or is it just done like through an app?

[00:41:23] Like how is that done?

[00:41:24] Yeah.

[00:41:24] So we have, we're calling them class apps, right?

[00:41:27] Where at a rack, right?

[00:41:30] So at an Alaco rack today, there will be a screen that has your personal program on it.

[00:41:36] And you will put your results directly into that, you know, on a break.

[00:41:41] And so I shouldn't say it's at a rack.

[00:41:43] It's not actually at the rack.

[00:41:44] It's in the middle of the space, but that's a detail.

[00:41:46] Yeah.

[00:41:47] You know, but you're putting that in while you're resting in between a set.

[00:41:51] And so it's like two seconds, you know, to put that information in.

[00:41:55] That goes into our backend and then is being looked at versus all of your other information.

[00:42:00] About, so the configuration, like the square footage you guys need, like the staff, the overhead,

[00:42:08] like how is that looking?

[00:42:09] I know you guys pour over these numbers extensively.

[00:42:11] Absolutely.

[00:42:13] I do like to pour over the numbers, Eric.

[00:42:16] You too.

[00:42:16] So I love the spreadsheet.

[00:42:18] Yeah.

[00:42:18] Oh, I do.

[00:42:19] I really do.

[00:42:20] I will.

[00:42:21] Let me start by saying, I think it's important to know that we intended to franchise initially.

[00:42:27] And to Jason's earlier point, we don't want to franchise for the near future, if ever,

[00:42:33] at this point, we'd like to roll out a large number of corporate facilities and get everything

[00:42:40] exactly the way that we want it.

[00:42:41] And maybe one day we would, maybe we won't.

[00:42:44] I don't know.

[00:42:45] But don't love the franchising landscape, at least for us right now.

[00:42:49] And so within all of that, I will say that we believe that the facility has the unit economics

[00:42:56] that would scale at the franchise level from an EBITDA standpoint, from a revenue standpoint.

[00:43:01] You know, we are technically slightly premium on the revenue or, you know, on the price point,

[00:43:07] not heavily luxury, but certainly on slightly more premium side of boutique fitness.

[00:43:13] So I just want to be careful to make claims about what the specific numbers are going to be, Eric.

[00:43:19] But so we think that we can do a bit more revenue than a typical facility.

[00:43:23] And we think that we can have, you know, a bit better EBITDA margins than a typical boutique fitness facility.

[00:43:30] We will have, you know, general manager, head coach, multiple coaches that are full-time with us.

[00:43:36] And then, you know, some part-time coaches.

[00:43:38] And that's about it, man.

[00:43:40] We're not talking about having a huge staff on this.

[00:43:44] And from a square footage standpoint, 2,500 to 3,000 square feet, what you would expect for boutique.

[00:43:49] Yeah.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:50] Not bad at all.

[00:43:51] And where are you guys at now?

[00:43:53] Are you guys one location, two locations opening?

[00:43:57] Like what phase are you in right now?

[00:43:59] Yeah.

[00:44:00] We're about to open the first in Scottsdale.

[00:44:03] So putting that down in a couple of months, depending on when this comes out, putting that down in a couple of months.

[00:44:07] And certainly intend to scale, you know, somewhat quickly after that.

[00:44:13] It's got to be right.

[00:44:14] Any reason for Scottsdale?

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[00:45:51] Yeah, go ahead, Jason.

[00:45:52] So there's a couple reasons for Scottsdale.

[00:45:56] One, the third person that's founding Proof3 with us is based in Scottsdale, which helps.

[00:46:03] Scottsdale definitely over-indexes for our core demographic.

[00:46:07] And third, a distant third, when we were originally talking about this, we were originally going to put the first facility in Pittsburgh, where Jim was.

[00:46:15] And then we realized that we'd be opening in the winter and doing a pre-sale in Pittsburgh in the winter was not something anyone wanted to sign up for.

[00:46:25] But no, Scottsdale is great for a number of different...

[00:46:27] It's a great fitness facility.

[00:46:29] It's a great fitness test facility, not only for us, but for others.

[00:46:33] You have, again, a large number in our core demo, which is going to be premium consumers, 30, 35 plus.

[00:46:44] We're going to slightly have more women than men, we believe, and then people that already have an active lifestyle.

[00:46:52] So we're not convincing people necessarily to come off the couch.

[00:46:55] We're basically taking share more than anything else in the way we're thinking initially.

[00:47:00] And then we'll probably put another location or two inside of Scottsdale and then take it from there.

[00:47:07] We've got the good benefit of our awareness, not only of the market, but also on the remote coaching side of Proof3.

[00:47:15] We know where all of our hotbeds are for where people are signing up for remote coaching, and we have the opportunity to be able to leverage that data to plant locations strategically that way.

[00:47:25] So it's going to be a fun next 24 months, 36 months or so.

[00:47:31] Yeah.

[00:47:32] Yeah, it sounds like it.

[00:47:33] Where do you think you'll pull consumers from?

[00:47:36] Like health clubs, group fitness, personal training gyms?

[00:47:41] Where do you think you'll get the most pull?

[00:47:44] Uh, I think it's more of a desire and or mentality as compared to a particular service offering.

[00:47:53] So we're really going after a focused longevity fitness consumer.

[00:48:01] And we understand that that's a little bit of a new term.

[00:48:04] You know, we're not trying to create a new category per se, but we very much think that lots of people will come from, pick a larger name, a lifetime, right?

[00:48:13] And Equinox, those types of facilities who really want to have a little bit more connection point, a little bit more coaching, a little bit more focus in what they're doing.

[00:48:24] But we also would expect that there are going to be some folks who have tried other boutiques and they want to come try something different.

[00:48:30] One of the things that I think is really important for us is this is progressive strength training.

[00:48:35] You know, this is not having a couple of kettlebells in a space, right?

[00:48:39] Like this, these are, this is real strength training.

[00:48:42] And so we're making a bet that the world will continue to want a lot more strength training.

[00:48:48] And so the way that we're going to do that, I think will be pretty appealing to a much broader audience than a couple of years ago.

[00:48:56] What do you guys need help with?

[00:48:57] Like if people are listening, they want to reach out.

[00:48:59] What do you want to hear from people about?

[00:49:02] Hmm.

[00:49:03] If you're in the Scottsdale area, we'd love to have you come test, you know, the, uh, the, the concepts, the assessments, you know, the, the technology.

[00:49:11] That'd be awesome to have you do that.

[00:49:12] And then I think really, we have, we have a great group of online coaches as well.

[00:49:20] And so partnerships around the online coaching side of what we have is pretty unique.

[00:49:24] We didn't get much of a chance to talk about that, but that's an important element that we have.

[00:49:28] We've got some really smart coaches, you know, in, in the business.

[00:49:31] So I'll tell you, I'll tell you a little bit on the, on the partnership side, the totally echo what Jim says.

[00:49:36] If you're in the Scottsdale area, we would love, like we are now in kind of testing phase and we're trying to put as many people

[00:49:42] through it as possible to be able to experience and make small iterations.

[00:49:46] So that's, that's a big point on the, uh, on the remote coaching side.

[00:49:51] One of the things that we've started doing is working a lot with, uh, weight loss centers and executive coaching companies.

[00:49:59] So if there's anyone listening that owns or operates facilities like that, be happy to talk to you about how we can, you know, work together by providing a remote coach to be able to help from a fitness nutrition, whatever gap is not in your particular service.

[00:50:15] We can absolutely work together on that.

[00:50:17] So those types of services, 100% be happy to chat with anybody.

[00:50:23] Awesome.

[00:50:23] Awesome fellas.

[00:50:24] And if people, I mean, you guys are active on LinkedIn, the Sagehouse website.

[00:50:28] Is there any other places you want people to go to check out?

[00:50:30] Is there something they can see online for proof through or where, where, where you guys at?

[00:50:33] I mean, the easiest way is the sagehouse.com is kind of the main holding company.

[00:50:39] And then it's just proof three.com and it's, you know, the number three.

[00:50:43] So yeah, I'd love to have people go there.

[00:50:45] Check it out.

[00:50:46] Yeah.

[00:50:47] Awesome.

[00:50:47] Well done guys.

[00:50:48] It sounds like a really cool concept and, uh, but action of everything that you guys have experienced across the industry for a while.

[00:50:54] It's true.

[00:50:54] And just things you've seen, being able to kind of pick what works, what doesn't.

[00:50:57] Uh, so it's, it's, uh, it's exciting.

[00:51:00] So yeah.

[00:51:00] Yeah.

[00:51:00] Well done.

[00:51:01] Eric, you, you, you more than most, uh, know exactly what that means.

[00:51:05] So yes, you're right.

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:08] And appreciate you calling it out.

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:10] Right on.

[00:51:11] Well, you guys, thank you so much for joining me.

[00:51:13] It's a, it's always an absolute pleasure.

[00:51:14] And, uh, yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Jason Crow and Jim Crow.

[00:51:17] Thank you guys.

[00:51:18] Thanks, Eric.

[00:51:20] Hey, wait, don't leave yet.

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