Dr. Kirk Parsley - An Introduction to Psychedelic Therapy & Sleep Optimization

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[00:02:06] Dr. Kirk Parsley, welcome to the future of fitness, my friend.

[00:02:10] Thank you.

[00:02:11] I feel welcomed and I appreciate the opportunity.

[00:02:13] Man, you are a smorgasbord of really cool topics.

[00:02:18] I was doing a number of college smorgasbord before.

[00:02:21] I'm digging this already.

[00:02:23] Yeah.

[00:02:24] There are so many cool things to talk about.

[00:02:27] You've been on, first of all, thank you to Rob Wolf for connecting us and a big fan of

[00:02:32] Rob and everything he's done.

[00:02:33] He's been a huge value in my career.

[00:02:37] You've been on the Jocko podcast, man.

[00:02:39] You've been on Dr. Gabrielle Lyons, Lyons.

[00:02:41] You've been on my good friend Garrett Deslas, the squad room, Power Athlete, Joe Desenles

[00:02:48] podcast, Mark Devine's podcast.

[00:02:50] You've made the circuit and you obviously have a lot of knowledge to share.

[00:02:56] The stuff that I'd like to get into today with you is you've really obviously made a lot of

[00:03:01] a big name for yourself within the world of sleep and optimization coming out of a military

[00:03:06] and special operators.

[00:03:07] There's hormones and hyperbarics, the HRT world, psychedelics, which I'm really interested

[00:03:14] in talking about on this podcast.

[00:03:15] I don't get to talk about that a lot.

[00:03:18] Let's just start with this and we'll dive into those topics.

[00:03:21] Just give us a brief introduction to who you are, Dr. Parsley, and what you do.

[00:03:27] All right.

[00:03:28] First of all, not Dr. Parsley.

[00:03:29] I'm just Kirk.

[00:03:30] Okay.

[00:03:31] That's fine with me.

[00:03:34] I grew up in rural Texas, had really no interest in school whatsoever.

[00:03:46] I was much more into cars and girls and sports and fighting and stupid stuff like that that

[00:03:51] teenage boys do.

[00:03:55] I come from a very conservative, traditional blue collar family.

[00:04:01] It's unspoken, but it's assumed that if you can serve the military, you should.

[00:04:08] I always just assumed I would do that at some point.

[00:04:12] Like I said, a terrible student.

[00:04:15] Four years of high school, I was still a sophomore.

[00:04:20] I was a good athlete.

[00:04:22] Specifically, I didn't translate over to SEAL training as well as I'd hoped, but I was

[00:04:26] specifically a good power athlete.

[00:04:27] I was a good speed and power athlete.

[00:04:31] I did multiple sports in high school and martial arts and all that stuff.

[00:04:36] Some documentary came out.

[00:04:38] It's kind of like that show 60 minutes.

[00:04:41] It's like a journalism documentary, kind of news documentary thing.

[00:04:44] It was called 48 Hours.

[00:04:46] I don't know if you remember that.

[00:04:48] It was on the air for about 10 years or something maybe, but they had just covered SEAL training.

[00:04:53] It was the toughest training in the world.

[00:04:55] I didn't even know what SEAL was.

[00:04:58] Back in those days, nobody knew what SEALs were.

[00:05:00] They didn't have the celebrity set up now.

[00:05:03] I watched that video about 20 times and probably 10 days.

[00:05:08] I went down to the Navy recruiter and said, I want to be a SEAL.

[00:05:13] They said, well, we don't really know how to do that, but come back next week and we'll

[00:05:17] have a plan to figure out how to get you into SEAL training.

[00:05:21] That's what I did.

[00:05:22] I dropped out of high school.

[00:05:23] I joined at 17.

[00:05:26] I left after my 18th birthday.

[00:05:29] Obviously, made it through SEAL training, became a SEAL.

[00:05:33] I remember very clearly at the end of Bud's, which is the basic training for SEALs,

[00:05:38] and walking us around from team to team.

[00:05:40] Obviously, just the West Coast teams.

[00:05:41] They're East Coast teams and West Coast teams.

[00:05:43] They walked us around from team to team just like, hey, and here's your dream sheet.

[00:05:47] Which team do you want to go to?

[00:05:50] And it was at that moment that I realized, I didn't even know what SEAL is.

[00:05:54] I signed up to go through Bud's.

[00:05:56] I don't really know the difference between that.

[00:05:59] So me and my Bud's are my buddies.

[00:06:02] Well, we already live here.

[00:06:03] Let's just apply for the West Coast teams.

[00:06:06] And unfortunately, almost everybody in my class went to the East Coast and a few

[00:06:09] of us stayed on the West Coast.

[00:06:11] Anyway, I did my time in the teams.

[00:06:13] It was pre-9-11.

[00:06:14] So there's a lot of training trips and a lot of training other people's military

[00:06:18] and some kind of limited police work stuff around the world.

[00:06:21] And just decided it's time to move on, do something different.

[00:06:24] You know, got married when you started college and all this.

[00:06:27] And, you know, I thought obviously a high school dropout.

[00:06:32] Like I didn't have great expectations for what I was going to do academically.

[00:06:35] I just, you know, was going to do something academically.

[00:06:38] Like just going to college was going to be like a huge step up in my family.

[00:06:41] And so yeah, I thought maybe it would be a physical therapist.

[00:06:48] That was kind of like my moonshot and then athletic trainer was going to be

[00:06:51] underneath that, you know?

[00:06:53] And you need 2,000 hours of volunteer at work to apply for PT school.

[00:06:57] So I started volunteering at St.

[00:06:59] Eagle Sports Medicine Center to get my volunteer hours in and they hired me

[00:07:04] probably within a week.

[00:07:04] And then I worked there all through college and worked as a PT aid and eventually

[00:07:09] a PT assistant and decided I didn't want to be a PT anymore.

[00:07:13] But there were a bunch of young doctors there who were about my age

[00:07:17] and they kind of talked me into going to medical school.

[00:07:20] So I go to medical school, I go to apply to medical school.

[00:07:23] And that's when I found out the military had their own medical school,

[00:07:26] which I didn't know.

[00:07:27] I didn't really have any interest in going back in the military.

[00:07:30] But you know, I was married.

[00:07:32] I had a kid, another kid on the way.

[00:07:34] They were going to pay me instead of the other way around.

[00:07:36] I figured, all right, I'll get, you know, I'll get some time back

[00:07:40] with the SEALs kind of give back to the community that shaped me.

[00:07:43] And, you know, so that's what I did.

[00:07:46] Got to the SEAL teams as their doctor really well steeped in sports

[00:07:50] medicine and orthopedics thinking that's what I would do.

[00:07:54] And, you know, the SEALs are like professional athletes

[00:07:58] and that the worst thing you can do is put them on the bench.

[00:08:02] And so the most likely person to put them on the bench

[00:08:05] is the health care provider.

[00:08:07] So they just usually lie to their doctors

[00:08:08] and don't don't tell you what's going on because they don't

[00:08:11] they don't want your help.

[00:08:13] And then they'll literally pay out of their pocket

[00:08:15] and go find a doctor in town to help them get through

[00:08:17] whatever they're going through, so they don't get pulled out of their platoon.

[00:08:20] But because I'd been a SEAL recently enough

[00:08:23] to where there were a lot of guys at that team,

[00:08:27] you know, at those teams on that on the West Coast

[00:08:29] that I trained with and deployed with.

[00:08:32] And obviously had a good enough reputation for guys to trust me.

[00:08:35] And they just kind of one by one started coming to my office

[00:08:38] and closing the door and saying, hey, you know, just between us.

[00:08:40] Let me tell you what's going on with me.

[00:08:43] You know, and they're complaining, you know, of things that are,

[00:08:46] you know, they're relative.

[00:08:47] So, you know, some people would think it's comical, but, you know,

[00:08:50] like an AV SEAL complaining that his motivation sucks is.

[00:08:54] Yeah, sure, his motivation is so better

[00:08:55] probably 90 percent of the country.

[00:08:57] But for him, his motivation sucks, you know, like he doesn't feel like doing his job.

[00:09:01] His concentration sucks, you know, his ability to pay attention,

[00:09:06] his ability to learn, his emotional control with his family,

[00:09:09] with his friends at work, body composition shifts, you know,

[00:09:13] like working with the nutritionist, working with the strength and conditioning coach,

[00:09:17] doing everything right and getting fatter, getting weaker, getting slower.

[00:09:22] You know, sexual performance issues, sexual desire issues,

[00:09:25] sexual performance issues, but nothing reached the stage of disease.

[00:09:28] Right. They just weren't performing as well as they would like to perform.

[00:09:31] So honestly, I was a Western trained physician, so I had no idea.

[00:09:34] I was just like, I don't know, like you don't like I know how to recognize

[00:09:38] and diagnose and treat diseases. You don't have any disease.

[00:09:40] So but I'll figure it out, you know?

[00:09:43] And so I just started testing everything I could possibly test.

[00:09:47] I mean, like literally every lab I knew how to interpret,

[00:09:50] I just tested them all and sent them over to the hospital.

[00:09:53] They're giving up like 17 vials of blood.

[00:09:55] 98 lab markers were coming back and I was going through them one by one.

[00:09:59] Didn't know what I was looking for. Just looking for patterns.

[00:10:03] And the pattern came back to fit their complaint.

[00:10:05] So, you know, they're they would be in like the lowest lowest quintile

[00:10:10] or maybe lowest 10 percent of testosterone,

[00:10:13] IGF-1 insulin sensitivity would be crap, you know, like they're

[00:10:19] they're fasting blood glucose was usually under control,

[00:10:21] but they're fasting insulin was usually really high relative to how fit they were.

[00:10:26] Every like oxidative markers, high inflammation, basically everything

[00:10:31] catabolic high, everything anabolic low,

[00:10:34] which doesn't fit the man in front of me.

[00:10:36] Right? You look at the guy ripped, you know, ripped muscular, strong,

[00:10:40] virile looking and I was joked around.

[00:10:43] I was like, hey, if I took your labs and gave them to a colleague

[00:10:46] and blocked your birthday and ask him who you are,

[00:10:49] they'd say a 55 year old man who's 30 pounds overweight and pre-diabetic, you know.

[00:10:53] Right.

[00:10:54] And that's really what the labs would look like.

[00:10:57] And so anyway, I first started fissing around like, you know,

[00:11:02] I didn't really know, but we'd all heard of like combat fatigue

[00:11:05] and shell shock and stuff in other wars.

[00:11:07] And this was 2009.

[00:11:08] So they've been combat for eight years.

[00:11:09] I'm like, maybe that's it. Maybe that's I don't know what that is,

[00:11:12] but maybe that's it.

[00:11:13] And so I started treating for adrenal fatigue.

[00:11:16] And I, you know, that was kind of when the big awareness

[00:11:19] around vitamin D3 deficiency leading to, you know,

[00:11:23] some physiologic problems.

[00:11:24] And so I started getting guys on that.

[00:11:26] And then I'm ashamed and embarrassed to say how many guys

[00:11:30] it took me to clue in, but I don't remember, but it was a lot.

[00:11:32] I mean, it was definitely over 40, maybe up to like 100 guys

[00:11:36] who come in my office already.

[00:11:39] And I remember really clearly one time this guy saying

[00:11:42] that he took Ambien every night.

[00:11:43] And I, and they just kind of fired off in my head.

[00:11:45] It's like, I like to say, I'm embarrassed to say how long

[00:11:49] it took me to catch on that train.

[00:11:50] But like, it seems like a lot of guys said that.

[00:11:52] And so like I put a little note in the margin and when he left,

[00:11:56] I went back through my files.

[00:11:58] Every single guy who had been in my office was taking Ambien.

[00:12:01] No way.

[00:12:02] And I thought, wow, I wonder if that could be a thing.

[00:12:06] Now again, Western trained magical physician.

[00:12:08] I knew nothing about sleep.

[00:12:09] Nothing. I didn't have a single class on sleep.

[00:12:11] I knew nothing about sleep.

[00:12:13] Like the average citizen today knows more about sleep than I knew

[00:12:16] then because nobody was talking about sleep back then.

[00:12:19] And, you know, the problem with the pharmaceutical industry

[00:12:24] is like when they apply for a drug patent,

[00:12:26] they own the research, right?

[00:12:27] And they give the FDA what they want to give them.

[00:12:30] They give them all the most favorable studies and stuff's

[00:12:33] not so favorable to them.

[00:12:34] They hide away.

[00:12:36] But once they get sued, they have to show all of it.

[00:12:38] And so they, you know, the Z-drugs had recently started to get

[00:12:43] sued because they're hugely dissociative.

[00:12:45] And so, you know, they basically take somebody's brain offline

[00:12:49] where they can act like they're awake and normal,

[00:12:52] but they have no memory of it whatsoever.

[00:12:54] And like people were going out and gambling their life savings

[00:12:58] away while they thought they were sleeping

[00:13:00] and waking up the next day with no memory of it.

[00:13:03] And, you know, so they got successfully sued.

[00:13:06] And so I found out, you know, what Ambien could do.

[00:13:10] Now, like I knew that consequence,

[00:13:12] but I still didn't know anything about sleep.

[00:13:13] Now the benefit I had was being the doctor of the West Coast

[00:13:16] SEAL teams and SEALs already had like the celebrity status.

[00:13:19] They'd already killed bin Laden and all that stuff.

[00:13:21] And so I could call anybody and like, you know,

[00:13:24] see somebody's TED Talk, read somebody's book,

[00:13:26] hear somebody lecture, whatever.

[00:13:27] And I just call them to say,

[00:13:27] hey, I'm the doctor of the West Coast SEAL teams.

[00:13:29] Could I come train with you?

[00:13:31] Could I consult with you?

[00:13:32] Every single person I talked to was like overwhelming

[00:13:36] lead generous.

[00:13:36] And so I got to learn a lot really quickly about sleep.

[00:13:39] And so once I learned, once I started,

[00:13:42] once I understood what was going on while you're sleeping,

[00:13:45] I thought, damn, every single,

[00:13:47] every single complaint these guys have could be explained

[00:13:50] by poor sleep.

[00:13:51] Right?

[00:13:53] Now I didn't, I didn't think it would explain,

[00:13:55] but it was like, it was possible.

[00:13:57] Like any symptom could be coming from poor sleep

[00:14:00] and specifically, you know,

[00:14:02] this drug induced sleep that they're in.

[00:14:03] And so I, you know, came up with a concoction of supplements

[00:14:09] to help guys get off of the ambient.

[00:14:10] And when I did, lo and behold, you know,

[00:14:13] four weeks later, six weeks later,

[00:14:14] they're, you know, their total testosterone tripled,

[00:14:17] their free testosterone quadrupled,

[00:14:19] their insulin insulin,

[00:14:20] fasting insulin went down 75%.

[00:14:23] You know, oxidative markers went way down.

[00:14:26] Inflammatory markers went way down.

[00:14:28] Thyroid function, like everything balanced out.

[00:14:31] And I'm not saying it was 100% for everybody,

[00:14:33] but it was like 80% solution for at least 80% of the guys,

[00:14:37] but every single person got better.

[00:14:39] And so I started beating down the door,

[00:14:44] the leadership door and said,

[00:14:45] hey, we got to quit giving people ambient

[00:14:47] and we got to start focusing around sleep.

[00:14:50] And I remember literally getting laughed

[00:14:52] out of people's offices when I was telling them that

[00:14:54] the hormone deficiencies,

[00:14:56] because they had already been identified

[00:14:58] that SEALs had this hormone deficiency pattern

[00:15:00] that nobody understood.

[00:15:02] And I was like, I think it's coming from lack of sleep.

[00:15:04] And they literally laughed me out of the office

[00:15:07] and told me I needed to go back to medical school.

[00:15:09] And then not too much longer,

[00:15:13] like once I started getting good results

[00:15:14] and especially when like older kind of leadership guys

[00:15:17] came to my office and I helped them,

[00:15:19] they became believers.

[00:15:21] We had these pre and post deployment retreats

[00:15:23] where we take the whole team before they're deployed

[00:15:25] and we, you know, spend a weekend at a resort

[00:15:28] and we'd bring in guest lecturers and stuff.

[00:15:30] And Rob Wolf was one of those guys

[00:15:33] and Cressor and Dave Grossman

[00:15:35] and kind of all the New York Times best sellers.

[00:15:37] The people, you know, podcast people were interested in

[00:15:40] and authors people were interested

[00:15:42] and they'd bring them into lecture.

[00:15:44] And then I was the only,

[00:15:45] and I was really the only guy talking about sleep

[00:15:47] and definitely the only guy talking about sleep

[00:15:49] as a performance tool.

[00:15:50] And so like all of those guys just

[00:15:53] were really impressed with what I was teaching.

[00:15:55] And so they started inviting me onto their podcast

[00:15:57] and inviting me to do lectures.

[00:15:58] You know, Rob and I became really good friends.

[00:16:00] I went on Rob's podcast

[00:16:03] and, you know,

[00:16:05] bought a Bing overnight.

[00:16:06] I became the sleep guy.

[00:16:08] And so while I was trying to enhance performance

[00:16:11] and that was one of the tools I was using,

[00:16:13] like that, that's what I got dubbed as a sleep guy.

[00:16:15] And now, as you know, I've done, you know,

[00:16:18] four or 500 podcasts as a sleep guy.

[00:16:20] I have lectured all over the world as a sleep guy.

[00:16:22] I've written a book been on TED Talks

[00:16:24] on television and all that stuff for sleep.

[00:16:26] And so that's what people think of me as,

[00:16:28] and that's okay.

[00:16:29] It's a very important message

[00:16:31] and I keep harping on that message.

[00:16:34] But you know, I do all performance,

[00:16:35] you know, like any kind of performance.

[00:16:37] So I sleep, exercise, nutrition, stress mitigation,

[00:16:40] like all anything wrapped up in that, you know.

[00:16:42] Yeah, that's a well right.

[00:16:43] That was a brief, but that was a summary.

[00:16:46] No, it was really good.

[00:16:47] I did half of it, half.

[00:16:50] I had half a listen.

[00:16:51] You got into a lot of the points

[00:16:53] that I wanted to cover as well.

[00:16:55] So it's really nice.

[00:16:56] And you know, I've been taking your sleep remedy, right?

[00:17:01] And so let me back up.

[00:17:03] Like, and I really like it.

[00:17:05] We'll talk about that.

[00:17:06] Like my, the last week that I've been taking the supplements

[00:17:10] been really good.

[00:17:11] I've been sleeping solid.

[00:17:12] But you know, I feel like we're in a really exciting

[00:17:15] golden age of consumer education, right?

[00:17:17] Like all these podcasts that we've named,

[00:17:20] you know, the Hubermans and Dr. Gabriel Lyons

[00:17:23] and you know, all these big people are searching out

[00:17:26] knowledge to be healthier.

[00:17:28] And I don't know if that's, you know, part of the pandemic

[00:17:31] is maybe have people have a slight more tilt towards

[00:17:33] wellness, right?

[00:17:34] They really want to investigate that.

[00:17:36] So it just seems like it's really good timing for all this

[00:17:39] and sleep is now.

[00:17:40] So it's just crazy how, well, me personally,

[00:17:44] how much I invest in my sleep now, right?

[00:17:46] Right.

[00:17:46] I'm a sleep mattress.

[00:17:47] I am my aura ring.

[00:17:48] I have, you know, I take my supplements.

[00:17:50] I make sure that, you know, temperature is light.

[00:17:52] Like all that stuff because I noticed such a significant

[00:17:55] difference when, and I'm not a high performing athlete,

[00:18:00] right?

[00:18:00] I'm not.

[00:18:00] I just, I like to perform my best every day.

[00:18:03] I like to get the most out of every day.

[00:18:04] So it's not, you know, just the high performing

[00:18:06] athletes and people like you who work with the

[00:18:09] upper echelon, right?

[00:18:10] The pro athletes, the Navy SEALs, right?

[00:18:12] There's so much to learn from those populations that

[00:18:14] can now kind of, you know, wrinkle down into the

[00:18:17] general population.

[00:18:19] And maybe we could start with this, like,

[00:18:20] what are the most common misconceptions about sleep

[00:18:26] that you talk about often with your patients or

[00:18:30] with people that you converse with?

[00:18:32] Well, something just sort of fading.

[00:18:36] When I first started, you know, beating this

[00:18:38] drum back in 2009, just getting, just

[00:18:43] convincing people that sleep wasn't a luxury was

[00:18:46] enough.

[00:18:46] Like that was kind of the biggest hurdle.

[00:18:48] You know, we've all heard the axioms.

[00:18:50] I'll sleep when I'm dead.

[00:18:51] Sleep is for the weak, like all that kind of

[00:18:53] stuff that we said.

[00:18:57] You know, that's still a part of our culture,

[00:18:58] but it's much less so.

[00:19:01] I mean, I'm still not going to convince, like,

[00:19:03] the Division 1 athlete who's trying to get a

[00:19:07] 4.0 in college and go to law school or

[00:19:09] medical school or something.

[00:19:11] So I can convince them to sleep.

[00:19:13] I'm not going to convince the military to

[00:19:15] quit sleep depriving their recruits when

[00:19:17] they're, you know, and I think in the

[00:19:19] military, I don't think it's true in

[00:19:21] academia, but I think in the military,

[00:19:24] sleep deprivation is a tool to kind of

[00:19:27] expose potential mental disorders,

[00:19:31] because sleep deprivation kind of triggers

[00:19:34] any kind of predisposition you have to

[00:19:36] psychiatric issues will come roaring

[00:19:39] forward when you're sleep deprived.

[00:19:40] And almost no psychiatric event ever

[00:19:43] happens without being preceded by

[00:19:45] sleep deprivation.

[00:19:47] So, you know, by and large, I'd say society

[00:19:51] is starting to catch on to the fact that

[00:19:53] sleep's important.

[00:19:55] As far as a misconception, I would say,

[00:19:59] you know, the biggest misconception

[00:20:04] right now, it's hard to fit in that box,

[00:20:06] but it's really just that people don't

[00:20:08] understand how important sleep is.

[00:20:11] You know, it's like they're starting

[00:20:12] to get some awareness of it, right?

[00:20:14] Just like, you know, we put seat belts

[00:20:17] in cars for 20 years before we mandated

[00:20:20] people use a seat belt.

[00:20:21] So it's kind of like that, you know?

[00:20:22] It's like, we know this is a problem,

[00:20:25] but everybody's just kind of paying

[00:20:26] attention to it right now.

[00:20:29] You know, and it's the worst sales pitch

[00:20:30] in the world as, you know, to try to

[00:20:32] convince people that sleep is valuable,

[00:20:35] because sleep impacts everything,

[00:20:37] like literally everything.

[00:20:38] The worst thing that you can say is

[00:20:39] like, hey, my product does everything

[00:20:41] and it does, but it does everything.

[00:20:43] In fact, when I first started doing my

[00:20:44] lectures, I used to say there's four

[00:20:46] pillars of health, right?

[00:20:47] There's sleep, nutrition, exercise,

[00:20:49] and stress mitigation.

[00:20:51] In the last, you know, five, seven years

[00:20:54] or something, I backed off of that

[00:20:55] and I said, there's three pillars of

[00:20:56] health. There's exercise, there's

[00:20:58] nutrition, and there's stress mitigation.

[00:21:01] Those sit on the platform of sleep,

[00:21:03] right?

[00:21:04] That like the foundation is sleep,

[00:21:06] and if you don't sleep well,

[00:21:07] those other pillars are relatively

[00:21:09] insignificant, right?

[00:21:11] Anything that you can do,

[00:21:14] anything that you can do to optimize

[00:21:15] those three pillars if you aren't

[00:21:16] sleeping well is simply mitigating

[00:21:18] the damage that you're doing by not

[00:21:20] sleeping well.

[00:21:21] And you're not mitigating it 100%.

[00:21:23] Like you're just, you're reducing

[00:21:25] how much damage is.

[00:21:25] There's no growth.

[00:21:26] Like you're not getting better.

[00:21:28] I'm sorry, like you're not getting

[00:21:29] better if you're sleeping to

[00:21:30] probably a period.

[00:21:30] You might think you are, but

[00:21:32] you're not.

[00:21:33] Like if you just got better sleep,

[00:21:35] you would be better at whatever

[00:21:36] you're trying to do.

[00:21:37] And no matter how hard you're

[00:21:38] working on that during the day,

[00:21:39] if you just gave up all your

[00:21:40] training and said I'm going to

[00:21:41] sleep eight hours a night,

[00:21:42] you'd be 30%, 40% better at

[00:21:45] whatever you're trying to be good

[00:21:46] at.

[00:21:47] And so when I do performance now,

[00:21:49] obviously, like I started this

[00:21:51] with, as you alluded to,

[00:21:53] the sort of like the most

[00:21:55] performant populations in the

[00:21:56] world, right?

[00:21:58] Special Forces guys and

[00:22:00] professional athletes, Olympic

[00:22:02] athletes, whatever.

[00:22:06] They're really hard charging

[00:22:07] kind of people who are all focused

[00:22:09] on that.

[00:22:11] But now like, you know, my private

[00:22:13] clients are CEOs and

[00:22:17] entrepreneurs and whatever.

[00:22:18] It's like they just, and it

[00:22:20] doesn't matter what they wouldn't

[00:22:21] perform better at.

[00:22:22] It doesn't.

[00:22:23] It's just kids like you want to

[00:22:24] be a better father,

[00:22:25] you want to be a better husband.

[00:22:28] You want to improve your body

[00:22:29] composition, you want to be

[00:22:30] faster, you want to be stronger,

[00:22:31] you want to have better

[00:22:31] concentration, you want to be

[00:22:32] better at problem solving,

[00:22:33] you want to be a faster thinker,

[00:22:35] you want to...

[00:22:36] It doesn't matter what you

[00:22:37] want to be good at,

[00:22:38] sleep is the foundation.

[00:22:39] And so when people, like I always

[00:22:42] tell people when I lecture

[00:22:45] and they say like what's the

[00:22:46] number one recommendation for

[00:22:48] you have for people sleep.

[00:22:49] I say, you know, go to Google

[00:22:50] Scholar or PubMed or something

[00:22:53] like, you know, reputable and

[00:22:55] academic, not that academia is

[00:22:57] all the record, reputable

[00:22:58] anymore, but you know what I

[00:22:59] mean?

[00:23:00] The most quantitative places

[00:23:01] you could go and put in

[00:23:04] sleep and whatever you care

[00:23:05] about.

[00:23:06] And then just read until

[00:23:07] you're petrified.

[00:23:08] And once you're scared to

[00:23:10] death that you're ruining your

[00:23:11] life, now you're in the right

[00:23:12] place.

[00:23:13] Right?

[00:23:14] And then, you know, and then

[00:23:16] the other misconception is,

[00:23:18] you know, people think of it

[00:23:19] like exercise or fitness or

[00:23:21] something like that.

[00:23:22] Whereas, you know, if I'm 50

[00:23:24] pounds overweight, so right,

[00:23:25] like I've been sleeping poor

[00:23:26] my whole life and I'm 50 years

[00:23:27] old, right?

[00:23:28] And now I'm going to get on

[00:23:29] top of like, you know, how

[00:23:30] much is that going to matter,

[00:23:31] how long is it going to take

[00:23:32] to really show difference?

[00:23:33] Is it maybe going to extend

[00:23:34] my life a few years?

[00:23:35] Like, I don't really know.

[00:23:37] It's not, it's not like

[00:23:38] that. It's not like losing 50

[00:23:39] pounds, you know, one week of

[00:23:42] really good sleep after not

[00:23:43] sleeping really well, literally

[00:23:45] turns the lights on people.

[00:23:46] Like they, they come in and

[00:23:48] like, oh my God, I didn't realize

[00:23:49] the world was so full of bright

[00:23:51] colors.

[00:23:51] And, you know, there's all this

[00:23:52] stuff I noticed now.

[00:23:53] And I don't even, I don't

[00:23:55] even recognize that guy.

[00:23:56] And this is one week.

[00:23:57] It's, you know, somebody

[00:23:58] who's been routinely

[00:23:59] restricting themselves to five

[00:24:00] to six hours of sleep,

[00:24:02] you know, you know, the

[00:24:04] whole point of me sleeping

[00:24:06] tonight is to repair

[00:24:08] from today and prepare for

[00:24:09] tomorrow.

[00:24:10] And ideally, you know, like

[00:24:12] if I work out today, if I do

[00:24:13] anything worth doing, I'm going

[00:24:15] to come out of the gym weaker

[00:24:17] than I went into the gym, right?

[00:24:18] When do I get stronger?

[00:24:19] Are you stronger while I

[00:24:20] sleep?

[00:24:20] My body uses the, my body and

[00:24:22] brain uses today as the

[00:24:23] template to figure out what I

[00:24:24] need to be better at tomorrow.

[00:24:25] And ideally I'll repair

[00:24:27] myself in a way that tomorrow

[00:24:28] I'm better able to do what

[00:24:29] I tried to do today.

[00:24:32] And if I could go to sleep

[00:24:33] and repair 100% and

[00:24:35] prepare like restock the

[00:24:36] shelves, replenish all the

[00:24:38] if I could do that 100%,

[00:24:40] I would never age.

[00:24:41] I'd wake up exactly the same

[00:24:42] every day and if I could

[00:24:43] edge it out and get a little

[00:24:44] better every day, I'd be

[00:24:45] reverse aging like a little

[00:24:46] kid goes to sleep,

[00:24:48] wakes up bigger, faster,

[00:24:49] stronger, smarter, taller, right?

[00:24:51] At plateaus around 20

[00:24:53] something to 30 something

[00:24:55] and then you kind of start

[00:24:56] going the other way and start

[00:24:57] waking up 99.9997% or

[00:25:00] something, right?

[00:25:02] And you know, and so the

[00:25:04] biggest, this would be my

[00:25:06] misconception that like

[00:25:08] I feel fine after six hours

[00:25:10] of sleep, all science

[00:25:12] like all research 100% of

[00:25:14] the research points do

[00:25:15] it takes eight hours to

[00:25:16] recover from being awake for

[00:25:17] 16 hours.

[00:25:19] If I just told you it takes

[00:25:21] eight hours to repair

[00:25:23] everything you did to yourself

[00:25:24] today and to prepare for

[00:25:25] tomorrow and you choose to

[00:25:27] use six hours instead of

[00:25:28] eight, you're choosing to

[00:25:30] age 25% faster.

[00:25:31] Well, wow.

[00:25:34] Let's talk about your blend.

[00:25:36] I was looking at the blend of

[00:25:37] your supplement.

[00:25:39] I was going through it.

[00:25:40] So I've been kind of piece

[00:25:41] mailing things together to

[00:25:43] get a really nice

[00:25:44] sleep supplement, right?

[00:25:46] And you know, I've taken

[00:25:48] pharmaceuticals in the past.

[00:25:50] They may get you to sleep

[00:25:52] but as you know, they don't

[00:25:53] really get you in the stages

[00:25:54] of sleep that you need

[00:25:55] and they become kind of a

[00:25:57] crutch and some of my

[00:25:59] family members have gone in

[00:26:00] and out of bad situations

[00:26:02] of the ambient and just,

[00:26:04] yeah, I've learned

[00:26:05] I just stay away from the pharma.

[00:26:06] Right?

[00:26:07] Yeah, shortens your life

[00:26:09] significantly.

[00:26:10] Yeah, it's crazy that it gets

[00:26:12] dished out so quickly.

[00:26:14] But you got a lot of stuff.

[00:26:15] You got vitamin D in here.

[00:26:16] You got niacin.

[00:26:17] You got L-tryptophan.

[00:26:18] You got magnesium.

[00:26:20] Man, give us some insights.

[00:26:21] Like how did you formulate

[00:26:23] this?

[00:26:23] This is a pretty comprehensive

[00:26:25] blend you got here.

[00:26:26] Yeah, so thank you for saying

[00:26:28] that and that was the

[00:26:29] intent of it.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:30] Yeah, it's self-serving

[00:26:32] but I'll always say

[00:26:34] I believe that's the best product

[00:26:35] on the market because

[00:26:38] if I could make it better,

[00:26:39] I would.

[00:26:39] Like, you know, I'm constantly

[00:26:41] reading, you know,

[00:26:42] I'm constantly reading on sleep

[00:26:44] and new supplements

[00:26:45] and what people are figuring

[00:26:45] out and anytime something

[00:26:48] that I think will improve

[00:26:49] the supplement comes out,

[00:26:50] I put it like I added in there.

[00:26:51] Right?

[00:26:52] I figure out a way to add it

[00:26:53] if like this is going to

[00:26:54] make sense, then we do it.

[00:26:56] And so, you know,

[00:26:57] like you said,

[00:26:59] I came up with that to get

[00:27:00] the seals off of ambient

[00:27:02] but they were taking ambient

[00:27:04] because they couldn't sleep,

[00:27:05] obviously.

[00:27:05] Right?

[00:27:05] So I couldn't just take away

[00:27:07] their ambient and say suck it

[00:27:08] up and go to sleep.

[00:27:08] Like I had to give them

[00:27:10] something and so

[00:27:12] like I said,

[00:27:13] I'd learned a lot about

[00:27:14] sleep physiology and so I just

[00:27:16] said, okay, what happens

[00:27:18] when you sleep?

[00:27:18] Like what are the neurochemical

[00:27:21] changes that need to happen

[00:27:22] for you to sleep

[00:27:23] and how can I support those

[00:27:25] things?

[00:27:26] That's all I can really do.

[00:27:27] Like I knew the lifestyle

[00:27:28] modification like the behavioral

[00:27:29] cognitive therapy part of it,

[00:27:31] you know, sort of the sleep

[00:27:32] ritualization or sleep hygiene

[00:27:34] whatever you want to call it.

[00:27:35] Like that was a huge component

[00:27:36] of it.

[00:27:37] But we had to make sure that

[00:27:38] people's brains were in a place

[00:27:40] to sleep.

[00:27:41] So if you think about

[00:27:42] evolutionarily, we use the sun

[00:27:44] right to guide our circadian

[00:27:46] rhythms.

[00:27:47] Our circadian rhythms are

[00:27:48] about 15 to 20 minutes off

[00:27:49] of 24 hours.

[00:27:51] Males are a little bit longer.

[00:27:53] Females are a little bit

[00:27:53] shorter.

[00:27:54] Vice versa, I always forget

[00:27:55] doesn't matter.

[00:27:57] But, you know,

[00:27:59] we use the sunlight to

[00:28:01] realign us with the sun

[00:28:03] because we can't see at night

[00:28:04] and we're checking right.

[00:28:05] And so we've been evolving

[00:28:06] for a long time

[00:28:06] and it made no sense for us to be

[00:28:08] out in the dark

[00:28:09] where we couldn't see.

[00:28:10] We're already pretty crappy

[00:28:11] predators unless, you know,

[00:28:12] we can focus on one animal

[00:28:14] with our weapon that we've

[00:28:15] designed like mono mono.

[00:28:17] We can't beat a raccoon.

[00:28:18] Right. So we'd tuck away at

[00:28:21] night. Right.

[00:28:21] So it's like the sun goes

[00:28:22] down.

[00:28:23] That's our that's our bodies

[00:28:25] cue or brains here.

[00:28:26] And there's gang, you know,

[00:28:27] nerve cells in the back of

[00:28:28] your eyes that have nothing

[00:28:29] to do with vision.

[00:28:30] All they do is sense blue light.

[00:28:32] My guess is because the sky's

[00:28:33] blue can't prove that.

[00:28:35] But that's probably it.

[00:28:36] And so once the blue light

[00:28:37] goes out of your eyes,

[00:28:39] that triggers that the release

[00:28:41] of that hormone that everybody

[00:28:42] knows melatonin.

[00:28:43] So melatonin doesn't make you

[00:28:45] sleep. Melatonin initiates

[00:28:46] the cascades of changes that

[00:28:49] after all those cascades go

[00:28:51] on like different regions of

[00:28:53] your brain are becoming more

[00:28:54] active.

[00:28:55] Different regions are

[00:28:55] becoming less active.

[00:28:56] Some are producing more of a

[00:28:58] certain neurotransmitter,

[00:28:59] neuropeptide, neurohormone.

[00:29:01] Like everything shifts.

[00:29:02] Your brain is actually more

[00:29:03] active while you're asleep than

[00:29:05] is while you're awake.

[00:29:06] It's just active in different

[00:29:07] ways.

[00:29:08] So all these chemical shifts

[00:29:10] need to happen.

[00:29:11] One of the first things that

[00:29:12] happens is a release of GABA

[00:29:14] capital G A B A which stands

[00:29:17] for gamma immunobuteroic

[00:29:18] acid if you care.

[00:29:19] And what that does is it slows

[00:29:21] down the neocortex.

[00:29:22] So I usually start my lectures

[00:29:24] off when I like to crowd and

[00:29:25] say who who here can define

[00:29:27] sleep for me crickets.

[00:29:30] Right. Nobody can define

[00:29:31] sleep.

[00:29:31] I'm like, don't you think that's

[00:29:32] weird? Like we do that.

[00:29:33] And I was like, well, hold on.

[00:29:34] Like, you know, I was presumptive

[00:29:36] who here slept before.

[00:29:37] Yeah. And everybody giggles left.

[00:29:39] And I'm like, don't you think

[00:29:39] it's weird that you don't

[00:29:41] like you do something every day

[00:29:42] and you can't define it.

[00:29:44] And so the good news is

[00:29:46] or the bad news we have

[00:29:47] when you want to interpret

[00:29:48] it. Sleep scientists really

[00:29:49] can't define it either.

[00:29:50] Right. So like our best like

[00:29:52] William DeMent came up with

[00:29:53] there's a barrier between you

[00:29:54] and your environment and you

[00:29:55] can be awakened past it.

[00:29:56] Right.

[00:29:57] If I hit you in the head with a

[00:29:58] baseball bat, there's a barrier

[00:29:59] between you and your environment.

[00:30:00] You're no longer paying attention

[00:30:01] to your environment,

[00:30:02] but I can't wake you up.

[00:30:03] Right. If you drink yourself

[00:30:05] unconscious, same thing.

[00:30:06] So there has to be able to be

[00:30:08] woken up. So all that really

[00:30:09] means is that the neocortex

[00:30:11] that part of our brain that

[00:30:12] we think of when we think of

[00:30:13] a human brain that kind of

[00:30:15] squiggly has all the cracks

[00:30:16] and dents and sulfide and

[00:30:18] it kind of crescent shape.

[00:30:20] That's the part of our brain

[00:30:21] that really we operate with

[00:30:23] is a lizard brain beneath

[00:30:24] that that's like the four

[00:30:26] S, you know, feeding, fighting,

[00:30:28] fleeing and fornicating.

[00:30:31] And that's what happens when you

[00:30:32] dissociate the neocortex

[00:30:35] from the lizard brain is that

[00:30:36] lizard brain takes over.

[00:30:37] And that's what was happening

[00:30:38] with the ambient people were

[00:30:40] taking that dissociating their

[00:30:42] brain. Lizard brain was

[00:30:43] taking over and they were

[00:30:44] going thrill seeking.

[00:30:46] They're picking up prostitutes,

[00:30:47] eating themselves sick gambling,

[00:30:51] taking risk, risky behaviors.

[00:30:53] And so the neocortex,

[00:30:56] how we interact with the world,

[00:30:57] that's what it means. There's a

[00:30:58] barrier between you and your

[00:30:59] environment just means

[00:31:01] you aren't paying attention to

[00:31:02] your environment and you aren't

[00:31:04] interacting with your environment.

[00:31:05] So when you're asleep,

[00:31:06] your eyes and ears and nose

[00:31:08] and like everything still works,

[00:31:09] you're just not paying

[00:31:10] attention to it.

[00:31:11] And so what GABA does is that

[00:31:12] lowers the sort of the resting

[00:31:15] potential. You can think of it

[00:31:16] like a, you know, like a

[00:31:17] mousetrap or something like

[00:31:18] it sprung with some tension

[00:31:19] and all you need to do is

[00:31:20] just tap it and it pops.

[00:31:22] Well, we just tighten that spring

[00:31:24] down to where it takes a lot

[00:31:27] more pressure to pop that neuron

[00:31:29] and make that neuron fire.

[00:31:30] And that's what GABA does.

[00:31:31] It lowers the resting potential

[00:31:32] of all these neurons.

[00:31:33] So it makes it harder for them

[00:31:34] to interact with the

[00:31:36] environment.

[00:31:36] And so you aren't,

[00:31:37] you aren't smelling,

[00:31:38] well, you are. You're smelling

[00:31:39] and tasting and seeing and

[00:31:41] feeling and all that,

[00:31:41] but you just aren't processing

[00:31:42] it.

[00:31:43] And then of course,

[00:31:43] that's your motor cortex too.

[00:31:45] So that's how you move

[00:31:46] and interact with the world.

[00:31:47] And then you interpret

[00:31:48] what you're seeing and

[00:31:49] smelling and all that.

[00:31:50] So all that kind of gets

[00:31:51] shut off in favor of this

[00:31:54] restorative period, right?

[00:31:55] This repair and restore.

[00:31:58] So GABA does that

[00:31:59] and then a whole bunch

[00:32:01] of other cascades keep changing

[00:32:02] and it's changing the whole

[00:32:03] night.

[00:32:03] Like every sleep stage

[00:32:05] has different chemical balances

[00:32:06] in different regions

[00:32:07] of the brain that are active.

[00:32:09] And so you can't just do a

[00:32:10] trick, right?

[00:32:11] Like pharmaceutical

[00:32:12] industries do a trick.

[00:32:13] They say GABA slows

[00:32:16] down the brain.

[00:32:17] Well, let's make something

[00:32:19] that the brain thinks is

[00:32:20] GABA.

[00:32:21] It binds the GABA receptor,

[00:32:22] but it's a whole lot more

[00:32:23] powerful than GABA.

[00:32:25] And that's what benzo-diazepines

[00:32:26] were.

[00:32:27] Benzo-diazepines have about

[00:32:28] 100 times the effect

[00:32:30] of GABA on a GABA receptor.

[00:32:32] But the benzo-diazepines

[00:32:33] also suppress breathing.

[00:32:35] So if you go up too high

[00:32:36] and people die from them

[00:32:37] and so they,

[00:32:38] well, okay, well, let's come

[00:32:39] up with a new drug.

[00:32:39] So they come up with

[00:32:40] a new drug that doesn't

[00:32:41] bind the same receptors,

[00:32:43] all the same receptors.

[00:32:44] And so it doesn't repress

[00:32:45] breathing,

[00:32:46] but now it has a thousand

[00:32:47] times the effect of a GABA

[00:32:49] molecule.

[00:32:50] And so when you take a sleep

[00:32:51] drug and dissociate your brain,

[00:32:53] you're not sleeping.

[00:32:53] You're just unconscious.

[00:32:54] It's like I hit you in the head

[00:32:55] with a baseball bat.

[00:32:57] But go back to your question.

[00:33:00] When we evolved for the blue

[00:33:01] light to trigger everything,

[00:33:03] that melatonin comes up

[00:33:04] pretty quickly,

[00:33:04] but all of those cascades

[00:33:06] in your brain that changed

[00:33:07] it, including the GABA

[00:33:08] and slowing down the brain.

[00:33:09] And then the other thing

[00:33:10] that happened obviously,

[00:33:10] because there was no HVAC,

[00:33:12] your body temperature went down.

[00:33:14] So those are really the three

[00:33:15] things, right?

[00:33:16] Decreased blue light

[00:33:17] initiates everything.

[00:33:18] GABA slows everything down.

[00:33:20] Lower body temperature is part

[00:33:21] of the equation to feel sleepy.

[00:33:23] So what do you need for that?

[00:33:24] Well, you need melatonin

[00:33:26] and you need GABA.

[00:33:27] Well, I don't want to give you

[00:33:28] melatonin.

[00:33:29] Like it's a hormone.

[00:33:30] So if I give you 100%

[00:33:31] of what you need,

[00:33:32] then like you quit responding

[00:33:34] to it or you quit producing

[00:33:35] it.

[00:33:35] Like we don't know exactly

[00:33:37] the degree to which it slows

[00:33:39] down, but the receptors go away

[00:33:40] if there's too much of it in

[00:33:41] there.

[00:33:42] And from the time the sun goes

[00:33:44] down until the time you wake up,

[00:33:46] you only produce about six

[00:33:47] micrograms of melatonin

[00:33:48] in your brain over like a 10 to

[00:33:51] 12 hour period.

[00:33:53] So I didn't want to give a ton

[00:33:54] of that.

[00:33:54] Just want to put a little bit

[00:33:55] of GABA or a little bit of

[00:33:56] melatonin in there.

[00:33:58] And actually was giving way

[00:33:59] too much when I first started.

[00:34:00] I was giving one milligram,

[00:34:01] which I thought was pretty

[00:34:02] safe.

[00:34:03] And then I don't know if

[00:34:04] you've ever heard of Dan

[00:34:04] Party, but smart

[00:34:06] neuroscientist and sleep

[00:34:08] researcher.

[00:34:09] He clued me on that

[00:34:10] a couple of years into it

[00:34:11] said, oh no, no, you need

[00:34:12] to bring that way down.

[00:34:15] So we've all heard of the

[00:34:16] Thanksgiving, you know,

[00:34:17] tryptophan coma, right?

[00:34:19] Turkey has an amino acid in it

[00:34:22] called tryptophan.

[00:34:23] All meat does.

[00:34:24] Nothing special about

[00:34:25] turkeys is we don't tend to

[00:34:26] overeat other things as much

[00:34:29] as we do that.

[00:34:29] And of course the carbohydrate,

[00:34:30] you know the carbohydrate

[00:34:31] you're loading in there too

[00:34:32] and they're causing part of

[00:34:33] this.

[00:34:34] But tryptophan becomes

[00:34:36] five hydroxy tryptophan in

[00:34:38] the brain.

[00:34:38] And then you need vitamin D3

[00:34:40] and magnesium to convert that

[00:34:42] five hydroxy tryptophan

[00:34:44] to serotonin.

[00:34:45] Serotonin then becomes

[00:34:46] melatonin.

[00:34:47] Melatonin, like I said,

[00:34:48] initiates the cascades.

[00:34:50] Gabba then starts doing its

[00:34:53] job and slowing down the brain

[00:34:55] and your body temperature

[00:34:57] drops and things slow down

[00:34:59] and you start feeling sleepy.

[00:35:01] Your stress hormones go down.

[00:35:03] You start feeling sleepy.

[00:35:05] So all this in my supplement

[00:35:06] is what I just said, right?

[00:35:09] There's tryptophan in there,

[00:35:10] there's five hydroxy tryptophan

[00:35:11] in there, there's vitamin D3,

[00:35:13] there's magnesium,

[00:35:13] there's a little bit of

[00:35:14] melatonin to initiate everything.

[00:35:16] There's gabba,

[00:35:17] there's amino acid called

[00:35:18] l-theanine in there

[00:35:19] that potentiates the effect of

[00:35:20] gabba because it's hard to get

[00:35:21] gabba across the blood

[00:35:23] brain barrier anyway.

[00:35:25] And so, you know,

[00:35:26] put some theanine in there

[00:35:27] to get, so what we do get

[00:35:29] across into the brain works

[00:35:30] better.

[00:35:31] And then I just recently added

[00:35:32] phosphatilic serine in there.

[00:35:34] And I added that because

[00:35:36] there's a lot of research and

[00:35:37] it's primarily around

[00:35:38] HIIT.

[00:35:39] So like when you do high

[00:35:40] intensity interval training,

[00:35:42] if you take a bunch of

[00:35:44] phosphatilic serine before you do

[00:35:46] that,

[00:35:47] you'll decrease,

[00:35:48] like you'll,

[00:35:49] you'll decrease your stress

[00:35:51] levels.

[00:35:52] You'll decrease your stress

[00:35:53] hormones,

[00:35:54] which then extends or

[00:35:55] extends your lactic acid

[00:35:57] threshold in your

[00:35:58] in your VO2 max.

[00:35:59] And so I wasn't interested

[00:36:00] in the lactic acid

[00:36:01] threshold of VO2 max,

[00:36:01] but I'm like,

[00:36:02] hey, if there's lower

[00:36:02] stress hormones,

[00:36:03] like let's do that.

[00:36:04] And so I added that in there.

[00:36:06] That's kind of touchy

[00:36:07] because like I've seen people

[00:36:09] need anywhere from like 50 to

[00:36:11] 400 milligrams of that.

[00:36:13] And so because that is really

[00:36:14] lowering stress hormones

[00:36:15] and stress hormones are

[00:36:17] responsible for you being

[00:36:19] awake and alert

[00:36:20] in proportion to your environment.

[00:36:21] If you're somebody who needs 50,

[00:36:23] and I had,

[00:36:24] you know, 200 in my product,

[00:36:25] then you're probably going to

[00:36:26] wake up terrible.

[00:36:27] Like if you wake up,

[00:36:28] like when you should,

[00:36:29] you know, like you just

[00:36:29] middle or super groggy.

[00:36:31] And so there's a low dosage

[00:36:32] in there.

[00:36:34] But that's the,

[00:36:35] that's something that

[00:36:36] I haven't really figured out

[00:36:37] how to do other than

[00:36:39] just to tell people to buy

[00:36:39] some phosphatilic serine

[00:36:40] and experiment with that.

[00:36:42] If, if you feel like your sleep

[00:36:44] isn't sort of optimal on that.

[00:36:45] I'd say that's the one thing

[00:36:46] that I would like to have more of

[00:36:48] but because the needs very so much.

[00:36:50] I just don't.

[00:36:52] And anyway, I was just,

[00:36:53] I was giving seals a worksheet

[00:36:54] for that.

[00:36:55] Say go out and buy all this.

[00:36:56] And since pre-Amazon,

[00:36:57] so they were literally driving

[00:36:58] to all the health food stores

[00:37:00] and San Diego

[00:37:01] and trying to get the right

[00:37:02] brands and the right quantities

[00:37:03] and some are powders

[00:37:04] and some are liquids

[00:37:05] and some are capsules

[00:37:06] and somewhere 90 days

[00:37:07] and somewhere 30 days and.

[00:37:09] Hey friends, Eric Melzone here.

[00:37:11] I've had the honor of interviewing

[00:37:13] over 750 professionals

[00:37:15] across the fitness, health

[00:37:16] and wellness industries.

[00:37:17] There's one thing I know for sure.

[00:37:19] Without a doubt

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[00:37:31] Costs are high,

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[00:37:34] I've seen the results first hand

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[00:37:36] there's a much better way

[00:37:37] to connect with your target audience

[00:37:39] and emerge as a thought leader

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[00:37:41] That's exactly why I've

[00:37:43] launched the podcast collective.

[00:37:44] The ultimate solution

[00:37:45] designed to empower executives,

[00:37:47] founders

[00:37:48] and thought leaders

[00:37:49] in the fitness, health

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[00:37:51] Our mission?

[00:37:52] To help you leverage

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[00:37:56] of independent podcasts.

[00:37:57] We don't just place you on podcasts.

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[00:38:01] One-on-one coaching

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[00:38:03] the right message

[00:38:04] for the right audience

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[00:38:11] to ensure that you're optimizing

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[00:38:18] provide unparalleled value

[00:38:20] that only a professional network

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[00:38:23] We work with a very limited number

[00:38:25] of clients

[00:38:25] to ensure the highest level of service.

[00:38:27] So please don't hesitate

[00:38:28] to reach out Learn More.

[00:38:30] Go to podcastcollective.io

[00:38:33] to learn more

[00:38:33] and contact me directly.

[00:38:35] That's podcastcollective.io.

[00:38:43] They just kept saying,

[00:38:44] this is a pain in the butt.

[00:38:45] Just make us a product.

[00:38:46] Make a product for us.

[00:38:48] And I'm like, I don't know how to do that.

[00:38:49] I'm a doctor.

[00:38:50] What the hell do I know about making a product?

[00:38:51] And so Rob and I got together

[00:38:54] and started talking about it.

[00:38:55] And Peter, Tia's a good friend of mine too.

[00:38:57] And so we just all kind of brainstormed.

[00:38:59] So let's just make our own thing

[00:39:00] and we'll sell it to the military.

[00:39:05] We'll get a military contract

[00:39:06] and get it so calm.

[00:39:09] And then maybe we'll make

[00:39:10] a little bit of money or whatever.

[00:39:11] So anyway, we did that.

[00:39:13] We started it up.

[00:39:14] We launched it at Payload FX.

[00:39:17] By the time Payload FX was over,

[00:39:18] we were in the black.

[00:39:19] Like we had already repaid all the capital

[00:39:23] just sold like wildfire.

[00:39:25] And I was like, all right,

[00:39:26] well, I'm going to get this off the ground for a year.

[00:39:27] Then I'm going to go back to clinical practice

[00:39:29] and sell a CEO and just let it ride.

[00:39:32] That's 10 years ago.

[00:39:33] I'm still running the thing.

[00:39:34] I still don't have a contract with So-Com

[00:39:36] but the product still sells fairly well

[00:39:38] and lots of So-Com people buy it

[00:39:42] and I have a discount code for those guys and all that.

[00:39:45] But yeah, that's the story of the sleep supplement.

[00:39:48] I know probably way longer than it should have been

[00:39:50] but that's the story.

[00:39:51] Yeah, it's great.

[00:39:52] And the only complaint I have about it

[00:39:55] is that my latency has improved so much

[00:39:57] that I can't get through my book now.

[00:40:00] And I'm reading a really good reading stranger

[00:40:02] in a strange land and it's really a page turner.

[00:40:04] But man, I get like four or five pages in now

[00:40:07] and I'm like, what did I just read?

[00:40:09] I got to go to bed.

[00:40:10] And yeah, so that's it.

[00:40:12] That's a good endorsement.

[00:40:14] That's a good endorsement.

[00:40:15] And my guess is you probably didn't have

[00:40:17] sleep problems before, right?

[00:40:19] I go in and out.

[00:40:20] Okay.

[00:40:20] I go in and out.

[00:40:21] So Rob and I ended up doing a ton of lectures together.

[00:40:26] We kind of did this traveling circuit for a few years

[00:40:28] and he was over at my house.

[00:40:30] We were doing a lecture the next day

[00:40:32] and he spent the night

[00:40:34] and this is when it was called on if you know this

[00:40:37] but we launched it.

[00:40:38] It was called the Sleep Cocktail.

[00:40:40] I didn't know.

[00:40:40] Like my moniker Doc Parsley,

[00:40:43] that comes from the SEAL teams, right?

[00:40:45] Because in the military,

[00:40:46] like everybody with medical training is a doc.

[00:40:48] And so everybody called it Doc Parsley Sleep Cocktail.

[00:40:51] That's what the SEALs called it.

[00:40:53] And it was my cocktail of supplements.

[00:40:55] And so we're like, all right,

[00:40:57] that's where we're going to name it.

[00:40:58] So we named it.

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:40:59] Of course, turned out to be a terrible marketing name.

[00:41:01] Like a lot of people really thought it was an alcoholic thing

[00:41:04] or it's supposed to be mixed with alcohol or whatever.

[00:41:06] It got blocked by several firewalls for government

[00:41:11] and stuff like that.

[00:41:13] I'm like, all right, well, so we changed the name.

[00:41:15] But anyway, it was still called Sleep Cocktail at that time

[00:41:18] and he's over at my house and he's like,

[00:41:21] he's like, hey, you can,

[00:41:23] where can you get some hot water?

[00:41:24] And he's mixing it up in hot water and I go,

[00:41:28] I was like, oh here.

[00:41:28] And he's like, I got an extra when you want one.

[00:41:30] And funnily enough, I run out of sleep remedy all the time.

[00:41:35] Of course, I own the company and I can get as much of it.

[00:41:37] I could fill my house with it.

[00:41:38] I wanted to.

[00:41:39] And I run out all the time.

[00:41:40] And so he's like, hey, you want this one?

[00:41:43] I got an extra one.

[00:41:44] And I'm like, no, I'm fine.

[00:41:45] He's like, are you sure?

[00:41:46] I mean, you know, Rob, like he's gonna just

[00:41:48] taunting me and playing.

[00:41:49] I'm like, all right.

[00:41:50] So I take it that night and I wake up.

[00:41:52] And I had probably been out for about two or three months,

[00:41:55] but I've never really had sleep problems

[00:41:56] other than I didn't value sleep.

[00:41:58] And I woke up the next morning and I was like,

[00:41:59] oh my God, what was I thinking?

[00:42:01] I got sleep so much better when I take this.

[00:42:03] And I like, I, you know, it's like everything else.

[00:42:06] Like when you don't work out enough

[00:42:07] and then you start working out again,

[00:42:08] you're like, what was I thinking?

[00:42:09] Like how did I let myself, you know,

[00:42:11] you feel so amazing when you get back on it.

[00:42:13] Yeah.

[00:42:14] So it's a great product, man.

[00:42:16] And, you know, it's well needed.

[00:42:18] And I think people within our industry too

[00:42:19] should check it out.

[00:42:20] I mean, I'm sure you have, you know,

[00:42:21] affiliate deals and things like that that you can do.

[00:42:23] And so I want to shift a little bit here too,

[00:42:27] Kirk, because I got about like 15 minutes,

[00:42:29] but psychedelics, that's something

[00:42:31] that I don't get to talk about very often.

[00:42:33] And I know with your, you know,

[00:42:36] with the high performers that you work with,

[00:42:38] you found a lot of success, you know,

[00:42:41] traumatic brain injuries and things like that.

[00:42:43] Right.

[00:42:44] But maybe give us, you know, it's a huge topic.

[00:42:46] I'd love to get you back on

[00:42:48] and maybe we can dive a little bit deeper,

[00:42:49] but you know, give us maybe the overview

[00:42:51] of like how you see the value in psychedelics.

[00:42:58] And you may obviously there's a ton of misconceptions

[00:43:00] about it. There's a lot of faux pas, right?

[00:43:03] And for so many different reasons,

[00:43:06] but it's starting to creep back into the mainstream.

[00:43:08] And it's really exciting to me.

[00:43:10] So give us, you know, a little bit of your insights

[00:43:12] and how you see that evolving

[00:43:13] and why it's so critical to you.

[00:43:16] Yeah, yeah. So I think you're right.

[00:43:18] I mean, obviously there's a lot of good research going on.

[00:43:24] I'm pretty closely tied to a lot of that research.

[00:43:27] Like I'm not a researcher,

[00:43:28] but I've kind of been involved with this movement

[00:43:30] as far as the military goes for a while.

[00:43:33] And actually, I think it helps

[00:43:37] when I tell the audiences, you know,

[00:43:39] like I'm a very straight-laced kind of conservative,

[00:43:44] traditional dude.

[00:43:46] Like I'm somebody who's always going to find the answer.

[00:43:50] Like I'm not going to limit my options

[00:43:51] by following algorithms and stuff.

[00:43:54] Like I'm going to find the answer,

[00:43:55] but I've definitely been socialized in certain things.

[00:44:01] And I thought, you know, like with most people things,

[00:44:03] that psychedelics is a bunch of hippie-woo-woo crap

[00:44:07] that people, it's just an excuse for people

[00:44:08] to get high on another kind of drug

[00:44:10] and call it spiritual instead of getting high, you know?

[00:44:14] That's what I really always thought of it.

[00:44:16] And I'll give you a super, super short version

[00:44:18] of a really fascinating but long story.

[00:44:22] I had a seal come see me all the time.

[00:44:25] So back up a second, I told you that the sleep improvement

[00:44:30] was about 80% solution for about 80% of the guys.

[00:44:33] The missing component was the TBI, right?

[00:44:35] We had a...

[00:44:36] And I figured that out about a year before I got out.

[00:44:39] So it took me a couple of years to kind of tee up on that.

[00:44:44] And a whole other story, like TBI's are hugely, hugely common

[00:44:50] and way, way more than people think.

[00:44:52] And that's a whole other discussion.

[00:44:55] But you can...

[00:44:56] Like every seal that I know has thousands of TBI's.

[00:44:59] It's that severe.

[00:45:01] And the difference between seals and other military forces

[00:45:05] is how much money they have to spend

[00:45:06] and so how many exposures to explosions and bullets.

[00:45:09] And so if they have, so the upper echelon

[00:45:12] of the specialization of military has more TBI's

[00:45:16] than the guys who have sort of bigger organizations

[00:45:21] and less money.

[00:45:22] But anyway, I had a seal who was getting medboarded out

[00:45:27] and he was a very dark, intimidating, scary guy.

[00:45:30] And he came to my office every day brooding

[00:45:32] and complaining.

[00:45:34] And I literally was afraid of him.

[00:45:37] Like literally at any time in my career,

[00:45:40] I really thought this guy might just come

[00:45:42] and murder suicide one day and just not necessarily

[00:45:46] to choose me for any reason.

[00:45:48] But like I was the only guy he really talked to.

[00:45:51] He was so disgruntled and he just came in my office

[00:45:53] and complained all day every day.

[00:45:56] And it lasted about six months and he got medboarded out.

[00:46:01] And then I didn't see him for about six months.

[00:46:05] And then I met a fundraiser in San Diego

[00:46:09] and this guy comes and sits across the table from me

[00:46:11] and starts talking to me.

[00:46:12] And I'm the doctor for 3,000 guys.

[00:46:14] So a lot of times it takes me a little bit

[00:46:16] to figure out who people are.

[00:46:18] But he's talking to me as though he knows me very,

[00:46:20] very clearly he knows me.

[00:46:22] And I'm trying to figure out how I know him

[00:46:24] and trying to figure it out and trying to figure out.

[00:46:26] And finally he says something and it hits me.

[00:46:29] And he's like, who do you think I was?

[00:46:31] I'm like, I don't know.

[00:46:32] I still don't think you're that guy, right?

[00:46:34] Like you don't even look like the same person to me.

[00:46:37] What in the hell happened?

[00:46:38] What did you do?

[00:46:40] And he tells me that he got out of the military.

[00:46:43] He'd been treated for his TBI.

[00:46:45] He'd been blown up and broken neck

[00:46:49] and had all sorts of issues.

[00:46:50] And so he'd been treated for these,

[00:46:53] with every kind of psychiatric drug you can imagine.

[00:46:56] And he gets out and he throws them all in the trash can

[00:47:00] and gets on a plane and flies to Peru.

[00:47:03] And he lives in the jungle.

[00:47:05] For some reason, nude, I just don't understand that part.

[00:47:07] But he lives nude in the jungle for a month with a shaman

[00:47:11] and does ayahuasca every third day

[00:47:13] and does cunilini yoga all day, every day basically

[00:47:16] and lives off the land.

[00:47:17] And completely transformed man.

[00:47:20] He's now the producer of the two biggest video games

[00:47:24] in the country, maybe in the world, I don't know.

[00:47:27] Super successful, like completely transformed man.

[00:47:30] 50 pounds lighter.

[00:47:32] Again, facial expression, intonation, eye contact.

[00:47:35] Everything about him is different than it was

[00:47:37] when he was in my office.

[00:47:39] And so I thought, well maybe I'll entertain that.

[00:47:44] And again, really short story.

[00:47:48] I mean it's a really long story about it.

[00:47:49] I'll make it super succinct is my best friend in the world

[00:47:53] and a guy I'd noticed since I was 18

[00:47:55] when we were still training together

[00:47:56] and we were roommates all through buds.

[00:47:58] He became suicidal.

[00:48:00] And as a last resort, I had nothing to offer him.

[00:48:04] Like same thing.

[00:48:04] He had been through years and years

[00:48:06] of traditional Western care.

[00:48:08] He was floridly suicidal.

[00:48:10] There's nothing I could do to talk him out of it.

[00:48:12] And I was like, hey, there's this psychedelic thing

[00:48:15] down in Mexico that might help.

[00:48:19] It's kind of dangerous and people have died doing it

[00:48:21] but if you're gonna kill yourself anyway,

[00:48:24] what do you say?

[00:48:24] We try this.

[00:48:25] And so he goes down there, has an amazing transformation

[00:48:29] in front of my eyes.

[00:48:30] I went down there with him and I watched it.

[00:48:33] And he became the 18 year old I knew.

[00:48:36] The next day I'm talking to a guy who looks 30 years younger.

[00:48:40] I'm like, what in hell just happened?

[00:48:42] And so I was a believer from then on and I was like, okay,

[00:48:46] well, let me, I'm really gonna start learning about this now.

[00:48:48] So that was my introduction to it.

[00:48:51] And those are severe cases.

[00:48:53] And for when you're dealing with people with severe PTSD, TBI,

[00:48:59] years and years of trauma, darkness, ugliness,

[00:49:01] poor sleep on top of bad diet, alcohol, drug addiction,

[00:49:05] whatever, you need some pretty severe hard hitting things

[00:49:08] like Ibogaine.

[00:49:10] Ibogaine is considered the father of psychedelic medicine

[00:49:14] as the most harsh teacher.

[00:49:16] And then there's ayahuasca which is considered the mother

[00:49:20] and then psilocybin I don't know is maybe considered

[00:49:22] the child or something.

[00:49:23] It's like they all kind of have similar effects.

[00:49:27] We know that they sort of scrub neurotransmitters,

[00:49:31] reset about a reset a lot of neurological pathways.

[00:49:34] It increases neuroplasticity.

[00:49:35] It increases growth factors in your brain.

[00:49:38] Neuroplasticity really just means that you're capable

[00:49:40] of thinking a different way than you currently think.

[00:49:43] I don't know if you've ever heard of the default mode network,

[00:49:46] but it's kind of like your grumpy old man pathway.

[00:49:49] So like you grow up believing certain things

[00:49:51] and certain things are supposed to be done a certain way.

[00:49:54] And you say certain things in certain situations,

[00:49:56] you act this way, like all of our cultural stuff.

[00:49:59] We have beliefs that are so deep rooted in us.

[00:50:02] We don't even know their beliefs.

[00:50:03] We just think they're innate behaviors.

[00:50:08] That's called the default mode network.

[00:50:09] And essentially your brain is trying to save energy

[00:50:11] by not thinking and just doing all these things automatically.

[00:50:15] And then that's what makes you a grumpy old man.

[00:50:20] I'm not a grumpy old man because I'm 53.

[00:50:22] I'm grumpy old man because my brain pathways are set.

[00:50:25] And having purple hair and nose rings ain't how you do it, man.

[00:50:29] Like that's not one of the pathways.

[00:50:31] And so like I don't want to see that.

[00:50:34] But what psychedelics do is they increase neuroplasticity

[00:50:38] more like a child.

[00:50:38] So you have regions of your brain that communicate,

[00:50:42] that haven't communicated maybe ever,

[00:50:44] but definitely since you were very young, like an infant.

[00:50:48] And it allows you neurotropic growth factors.

[00:50:51] So with TBIs there's a lot of sort of neuronal death

[00:50:54] and chronic inflammation and neurons that aren't firing well

[00:50:57] and working well.

[00:50:59] A lot of senescent cells, it helps clear all of that out,

[00:51:02] increases blood vessel growth.

[00:51:04] So increases blood supply to the brain,

[00:51:06] decreases neuroinflammation.

[00:51:09] And even if you've never had any type of head injury

[00:51:12] or any kind of blast injury or TBI,

[00:51:14] you still have like set pathways, right?

[00:51:18] That like you have a default mode network.

[00:51:20] And if that default mode network is driving you towards a life

[00:51:24] that you don't really want,

[00:51:25] it's really hard to get out of that, right?

[00:51:27] So it's like a lot of people with depressive behaviors,

[00:51:31] like major depressive disorders.

[00:51:32] Most of that stuff has been,

[00:51:34] that's been adding up a sort of a negative outlook

[00:51:36] for years if not decades.

[00:51:38] And now how are you going to change?

[00:51:40] Like you got this super highway and there's this rabbit

[00:51:42] trail that leads to a better way of learning or behaving.

[00:51:46] But you're going to follow that super highway.

[00:51:48] Man, that's the way you know how to do it.

[00:51:49] And so it does that.

[00:51:51] And then it also gets rid of the ego.

[00:51:54] So a lot of the reason we don't change

[00:51:56] is because it hurts our ego to change, right?

[00:51:58] Because that has, we're admitting that we're wrong.

[00:52:00] If we have to change, it's like,

[00:52:01] well, what I've been doing all this time is wrong.

[00:52:04] And so I need to be better and I need to change this behavior.

[00:52:08] That's a big, big step.

[00:52:09] It's even a bigger step to like figure out how to change it.

[00:52:12] Like that's not easy, right?

[00:52:13] That's what I do with my clients over the course of a year.

[00:52:16] It takes me to get them to change simple things,

[00:52:19] like how they eat and how they sleep.

[00:52:20] Like not complex things like how they respond to stress

[00:52:24] and how they respond in relationships

[00:52:26] and their, the other most intimate fears and foibles.

[00:52:30] You know, like all that stuff is hard to change.

[00:52:32] And the psychedelics help a lot with that.

[00:52:36] You've probably heard of the amygdala in the brain.

[00:52:39] So it's like the alarm system,

[00:52:41] the two walnuts on each side of our brain.

[00:52:43] And what that does basically, that's kind of the sympathetic,

[00:52:47] the master of the sympathetic nervous system.

[00:52:49] There's the autonomics, there's parasympathetic and sympathetic.

[00:52:52] And sympathetic is kind of the fight or flight pathway.

[00:52:55] Autonomous is the rest and digest over simplification,

[00:52:58] but it works for this.

[00:53:00] So the more sort of what we call sympathetic tone.

[00:53:03] So it's just like how revved up is that amygdala?

[00:53:06] Like how vigilant is it looking for,

[00:53:10] like how vigilant is it at looking for stressors

[00:53:14] or threats, whatever, right?

[00:53:15] Because, you know, the environment doesn't have to change

[00:53:18] for your perception of the environment to change.

[00:53:20] And so when you're under a lot of sympathetic tone,

[00:53:22] this is the hyper vigilance that comes from combat,

[00:53:24] which is a part of what we consider PTSD.

[00:53:27] People just looking around for threats all the time

[00:53:29] and finding things threatening all the time.

[00:53:32] And again, you don't have to be a combat veteran

[00:53:34] to have that like this is the stress response

[00:53:36] for people who've gone through child abuse

[00:53:37] or molestation or rape

[00:53:39] or just a really nasty relationship with a boss

[00:53:43] or a family or something like that.

[00:53:45] Like these things that kind of trigger you

[00:53:46] to where you engage in behaviors that are automatic

[00:53:49] and it doesn't really suit you

[00:53:51] and you can kind of see it not really working out for you,

[00:53:53] but you can't stop yourself from doing it.

[00:53:55] And those are behaviors beyond your control.

[00:53:57] Those are triggers.

[00:53:59] And the amygdala by and large is charging that.

[00:54:01] When the amygdala says this is a stressor,

[00:54:04] that means you need to react.

[00:54:07] Well, in our modern day and age,

[00:54:09] with all of our constant stressors

[00:54:12] of our constant influx of negative information

[00:54:15] that comes all the time, right?

[00:54:17] All the time.

[00:54:18] So many different channels

[00:54:20] and you're just bombarded by stimuli

[00:54:23] and primarily negative things telling you

[00:54:26] that you aren't good enough, you aren't enough,

[00:54:27] you aren't working hard enough,

[00:54:28] you haven't succeeded enough, whatever it is.

[00:54:32] And that revs up our sympathetic nervous system.

[00:54:34] And the main reason people can't sleep well

[00:54:36] is their stress hormones are too high.

[00:54:38] And when the sympathetics are high,

[00:54:40] stress hormones are high.

[00:54:41] That's the response of the sympathetic nervous system.

[00:54:43] It stimulates the release of stress hormones.

[00:54:46] When you take, so Ibogaine specifically,

[00:54:49] now all the psychedelics do this

[00:54:51] and then primarily do it through what's called a DMT

[00:54:55] pathways, DMT receptors.

[00:54:57] So Ibogaine decreases the sympathetic tones.

[00:55:01] So it decreases the activity of the amygdala by 90%

[00:55:06] for up to nine months after doing one treatment.

[00:55:11] And it increases all these growth factors.

[00:55:13] So you can grow new neurons and you can grow new synapses.

[00:55:17] It helps, it completely removes your ego

[00:55:19] while you're on, like while you're doing

[00:55:21] your psychedelic experience, your ego is gone.

[00:55:24] You're watching yourself from a third person perspective,

[00:55:27] reviewing your life and going, oh, that was dumb.

[00:55:29] Well, I shouldn't do that.

[00:55:30] I should do this.

[00:55:32] But you only even able to see that before

[00:55:34] because your ego is protective of it.

[00:55:35] Now you can see all these pathways,

[00:55:37] all these things about yourself

[00:55:38] that you could change that would improve your life.

[00:55:40] You have the neurological situation to be able to do it

[00:55:43] because you have all this neuroplasticity

[00:55:45] and increased growth capacities,

[00:55:47] you're able to change your brain much easier.

[00:55:50] And then you also have lower stress hormones

[00:55:53] and stress hormones interfere with our cognition

[00:55:56] and our willpower and our mental outlook

[00:55:58] and on life and stuff like that.

[00:56:00] So that's kind of like the overall basics of them.

[00:56:04] I begin last the longest and is the most robust,

[00:56:08] I would say effect.

[00:56:09] IWASC is probably next.

[00:56:12] psilocybin's probably next after that.

[00:56:14] There's again, they're all working off this DMT pathways,

[00:56:18] dimethyltryptaline pathway,

[00:56:20] which our brain ordinarily secretes

[00:56:23] and we think that's responsible for the God experience

[00:56:26] of near death experiences.

[00:56:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:29] Your brain faces DMT and you go to the light

[00:56:32] and you feel God and sort of all this other stuff.

[00:56:34] So, I don't get involved with people's religious beliefs or not,

[00:56:39] but it's going to push you towards whatever.

[00:56:43] Everybody has some sort of spiritual belief, right?

[00:56:45] Like, yeah, even if your trust is in science,

[00:56:48] like that's a belief system, right?

[00:56:50] Everybody has a belief system.

[00:56:51] So it's going to expose you to your preferred belief system

[00:56:56] in a way that's gonna allow you the most self reflection

[00:57:00] and it's gonna put you in a position to be able to change it.

[00:57:04] And then, MDMA and ketamine kind of fall into those.

[00:57:07] Those are man-made versions.

[00:57:08] LSD was a man-made version.

[00:57:11] LSD is not really on the radar right now,

[00:57:14] but MDMA and ketamine is legal already.

[00:57:17] You can go get ketamine treatments in clinics.

[00:57:20] A lot of the same benefits,

[00:57:21] it just doesn't last as long.

[00:57:22] It's not as robust and it doesn't last as long.

[00:57:26] MDMA, same thing, not as robust,

[00:57:28] doesn't last as long and slightly different effects.

[00:57:33] But that's the general,

[00:57:34] and I'm sorry I went on so long,

[00:57:36] but I was just trying to give a good outline

[00:57:38] that you can ask any questions from there.

[00:57:40] No, that's great, man.

[00:57:41] It really is.

[00:57:41] I mean, I think that's probably one of the best

[00:57:44] 15-minute overviews on psychedelics I've ever heard.

[00:57:47] And I'm not naive to psychedelics.

[00:57:50] I'm a big believer in them.

[00:57:52] I've had good friends who have actually been on this show

[00:57:54] who have had TBIs and gone, you know...

[00:57:57] Right.

[00:57:58] ...where it was either Jamaica or something like that.

[00:58:00] That's the last question I have for you,

[00:58:01] because I know you probably get a good going,

[00:58:04] but accessibility for this stuff is the biggest thing.

[00:58:07] It's like there's probably many people listening to the show

[00:58:09] who are like, okay, whatever Kirk just said,

[00:58:14] I want that.

[00:58:15] But how do we get to it?

[00:58:16] I know you have someone in Austin

[00:58:18] that you wanted to mention that's starting to do so out there,

[00:58:20] but give us a couple places where people can start.

[00:58:24] Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:24] Yeah.

[00:58:25] So there's...

[00:58:27] I don't know if it's all 50 states.

[00:58:29] I think it is, but if it's not,

[00:58:32] it's really close to all 50 states.

[00:58:34] If you live in a fairly metropolitan area,

[00:58:37] you should probably be able to find an academy and clinic.

[00:58:41] My clinical experience with that is I much prefer an IV.

[00:58:46] You can get it done intramuscularly.

[00:58:49] You can get an IV done.

[00:58:51] An IV, you can turn off.

[00:58:52] You start having a bad experience.

[00:58:54] You can just turn it off and two or three minutes later,

[00:58:56] you're back down to normal.

[00:58:58] Intramuscular is no such luck.

[00:59:00] Like you're strapped in for the ride

[00:59:02] when you do the intramuscular.

[00:59:03] So that I think is a good starting point

[00:59:06] if you're just thinking about whether or not

[00:59:09] you think it would be useful to you.

[00:59:11] I would highly recommend looking for a place

[00:59:14] that actually has some sort of facilitation,

[00:59:16] somebody helping you, guiding you,

[00:59:18] talking to you through those experiences

[00:59:20] and not just we're going to inject you

[00:59:23] and leave you in a room for an hour or two hours, whatever.

[00:59:28] That's a good way to start it, like I said, legal everywhere.

[00:59:31] MDMA counseling is available.

[00:59:34] So if there's, it's called Maps Program.

[00:59:37] You can look into that.

[00:59:38] You can go into certain clinical settings

[00:59:41] and you can take MDMA and try to break through things

[00:59:45] that maybe you're resisting opening up to.

[00:59:47] So that's sort of the conservative banal.

[00:59:51] I mean, banal is not the right word, but you know what I mean.

[00:59:54] Sort of the more conservative approach.

[00:59:57] Ibogaine can only be done outside of the country.

[01:00:00] ayahuasca I think is slippery from state to state

[01:00:05] because there is a large group of religious,

[01:00:10] there's a large religious organization

[01:00:12] that uses ayahuasca as sort of their sacrament.

[01:00:16] That is allowed here and there around the country.

[01:00:18] I don't know the details of that.

[01:00:21] And then psilocybin is actually legal or decriminalized

[01:00:24] in a couple of states, which is an easier way to go about it.

[01:00:27] But again, anybody who's going to do any of these,

[01:00:30] anybody who's interested in all of this stuff,

[01:00:33] I've been through all of them just to see what they were

[01:00:36] and what was going on with them

[01:00:38] and sort of done my own research on them.

[01:00:41] And I've worked with hundreds of people

[01:00:44] who've been through them now.

[01:00:46] I can't overemphasize how important the set and setting is.

[01:00:49] So the environment that you're in

[01:00:51] and the mental state that you're in

[01:00:53] when you do these experiences matter more than the drug.

[01:00:58] And if you take these, you know,

[01:01:02] entheogen, psychedelics, whatever you call it,

[01:01:04] plant medicines that comes up then,

[01:01:06] if you take these psychedelic chemicals,

[01:01:10] you're going to have a psychedelic experience.

[01:01:12] And if you weren't ready for it,

[01:01:14] it could be a really bad experience.

[01:01:16] And if you don't have anybody facilitating you,

[01:01:18] it could be a really long, really bad experience.

[01:01:21] And it can make things worse for you.

[01:01:24] So I highly recommend looking for practitioners

[01:01:27] who do an overall complete program.

[01:01:31] And like you alluded to earlier,

[01:01:34] there's a guy out here in Texas now,

[01:01:37] I know doing this, Justin LaPriese his name

[01:01:40] and his organization is Heroic Path to Light.

[01:01:44] He formed it for military veterans and first responders,

[01:01:48] but he has a very robust program

[01:01:51] where like there's six weeks of sort of preparation,

[01:01:54] there's the retreat

[01:01:56] and then there's multiple weeks of integration afterwards.

[01:01:59] Something like that, if you don't do that program,

[01:02:01] like something like that,

[01:02:02] where you have lots of information

[01:02:05] about what you're getting into

[01:02:07] and what it's going to be like

[01:02:08] and how to get yourself out of bad situations

[01:02:10] and when to ask for help and all that stuff.

[01:02:14] And then go through that experience

[01:02:16] and then the biggest problem,

[01:02:18] and I've seen this with the Special Forces guys

[01:02:21] over and over again,

[01:02:23] if you don't do anything with that experience

[01:02:26] and you just ride off of the good feeling

[01:02:28] that you got from it, right?

[01:02:29] And to be clear, it's very rarely

[01:02:33] a super pleasant experience.

[01:02:36] It's after the fact,

[01:02:37] you're like, oh, that was really good for me.

[01:02:40] It's like a really hard workout.

[01:02:41] They sucked, right? They hurt.

[01:02:43] But afterwards, like, oh, I'm so glad I did that.

[01:02:45] And so if you don't do anything

[01:02:47] to sort of integrate that work

[01:02:49] and like I said, work on that default mode network

[01:02:51] and work on how you're thinking

[01:02:52] and work on your introspection,

[01:02:54] if you don't do anything with it,

[01:02:56] as soon as that amygdalatone and neurotrack,

[01:03:00] the neurotropic factors,

[01:03:02] as soon as those go away,

[01:03:03] your benefits go away

[01:03:05] because you haven't made any changes

[01:03:06] and you're just going to snap back to where you were.

[01:03:08] So it's important to have a really long, robust program

[01:03:12] or at least have somebody that you can work with

[01:03:17] who's somewhat knowledgeable about this afterwards

[01:03:19] and you do your own work, journaling and reading

[01:03:22] and meditation and prayer and movement,

[01:03:24] whatever it is that you figure out you need to do.

[01:03:27] But that would be my recommendation for my...

[01:03:32] I'm really, really hopeful for the heroic path

[01:03:36] to light just because I think it's preferential.

[01:03:41] For me, it's definitely preferential that all of my

[01:03:46] sealed patients, buddies go through something

[01:03:49] in the United States with people that I trust and know

[01:03:52] and first world experience

[01:03:55] and safety precautions and all that other stuff.

[01:03:57] I feel a lot better about that.

[01:03:59] There's another side of it where it's just very...

[01:04:03] I don't mean it derogatory,

[01:04:04] but I don't know another way of saying it.

[01:04:06] Very woo-woo, very spiritual.

[01:04:10] And if you're into that, there's components of that

[01:04:14] and heroic path to light too.

[01:04:15] They have a lot of female facilitators who do that kind of stuff.

[01:04:20] If you're much more drawn to that, that's fine,

[01:04:23] but you still need your preparation

[01:04:26] and your work afterwards.

[01:04:29] Whether you're handling it from the right brain or left brain

[01:04:32] afterwards doesn't really matter as long as

[01:04:34] you're doing the work that needs to be done.

[01:04:35] Awesome. Awesome.

[01:04:37] Well, Kirk, this has been super informative, man.

[01:04:40] I really appreciate it.

[01:04:41] And there's plenty of things that I'm going to sit on

[01:04:43] and think about and probably return to your friend in Austin.

[01:04:46] Yeah, cool.

[01:04:47] Really appreciate you coming on.

[01:04:49] There's... People want to find you.

[01:04:51] It's not hard.

[01:04:51] You search your name and you'll find tons of stuff on you.

[01:04:54] So thank you for joining me today.

[01:04:57] Love to have you back on next year.

[01:04:58] And yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Kirk Barclay.

[01:05:01] We talk about anything, man.

[01:05:02] Next year we do, you name it.

[01:05:04] We do more psychedelics, do peptides, whatever you want to do.

[01:05:07] Awesome. Thank you, sir.

[01:05:08] Cool. Thank you.

[01:05:11] Hey, wait. Don't leave yet.

[01:05:13] This is your host, Eric Malzone.

[01:05:15] And I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Feminist.

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