David Knies - The 5 Forces Driving the Next Trillion Dollars in Wellness

[00:00:02] Hey friends, welcome to The Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness and wellness industry podcast for over five years and running. I'm your host, Eric Malzone, and I have the honor of talking to entrepreneurs, innovators, and cutting-edge technology experts within the extremely fast-paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. If you like the show, we'd love it if you took three minutes of your day to leave us a nice, supportive review wherever you consume your podcasts. If you're interested in staying up to date with The Future of Fitness, go to

[00:00:31] futureoffitness.co to subscribe and get weekly summaries dropped into your inbox. Now onto the show.

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[00:02:47] I mean, as I was telling you, the whole premise of this podcast is to help the industry skate to where the puck is going. And you guys at PA Consulting have put together some really interesting research. And I know you gave a keynote here at the Connected Health and Fitness Summit, which we're sitting in right now in Los Angeles, about where is the next trillion dollars, with a T, trillion dollars in the wellness industry coming from? And it's spot on for audience. I think everyone's going to want to hear what you have to say.

[00:03:16] And it's been really good. I mean, we're getting towards the tail end of this conference here. I don't know about you. I want to get your insights on it, but I think it's been excellent. They've done a really good job. I think the speakers and the topics have been very, very relevant. I've seen a lot of people doing business in the hallways, making deals and making introductions and things like that. So it's been really good. But that's my take. So far, how's it been going for you guys? And then we'll get into the meat of the five market disruptions that you see.

[00:03:43] Yeah, thanks, Eric. Great to be here. And really cool to be here at the show, too, in L.A. I have met a ton of great companies that we've wanted to meet with. And it's so easy to get together with them right here in person when you see them all together. So a great event and a great show that we'll hopefully do much more of in the future. Yeah. Yeah. It's been you can you can do a lot of this stuff remotely. And this is coming from a guy from like three, four years ago. I'm like, ah, these events are I don't want to travel. I don't want to get out of my routine.

[00:04:12] I don't want to do all these things. But once you get here and you realize like how important the in-person is, and especially the way this this industry was tromped during the pandemic. And we finally like there's so much sign of life in vibrancy. So it's been awesome, man. Needs a human layer. Yeah, that's what I always say. You can do everything with technology, but it always is improved with a human layer. Yeah. Yeah. Hallelujah, man. Let's start with this. What before we get into these five market disruptions that you're just explaining to me,

[00:04:40] and I wholeheartedly agree. And I know you're going to take it to a whole new level from some of the conversations I've had before. What is PA Consulting? What do you guys do? And maybe your background, like how'd you get into it? And then we'll we'll take it from there. Sure. No problem. PA is a 4000 person innovation and technology consultancy. 80 years old. We started at the end of World War II in the UK, helping with the war effort. PA stands for or stood for personnel associates. Okay. So helping improve production in the wartime effort through time and motion studies.

[00:05:11] Since then, we've evolved to be a firm. Roughly 4000 people, as I said, half the company are kind of traditional management consultants. And the other half are people who build things, physical, digital products, services, brands, things like that. We focus on envisioning, creating, developing and delivering new growth platforms for our clients. And those are clients across the consumer sector, the health care and life sciences sector,

[00:05:37] transport, energy and utilities, financial services, all kinds of other industries like that. So the big kind of market sectors in the world. In the US, we focus predominantly on the consumer sector, health care and life sciences, manufacturing, energy and utilities and transport. Okay. Super interesting. So, yeah, you guys cover a lot. And I imagine that perspective brings a lot to this industry, too. I mean, I still believe that we're young in this fitness and wellness space.

[00:06:06] I mean, especially this is fitness and we're kind of being consumed by wellness, which you're going to talk about, I'm sure. But how are we doing when you look across all those industries and then you come to an event like this? Like, what do you see? Do you see young? Do you see mature, immature? Like what what what is your lens see when you come here? So this is an industry that's always been hard on itself, I think. But it's one that every other industry looks at for inspiration. When you look at the sports industry, the fitness industry, the well-being business,

[00:06:37] particularly how that's been growing like crazy in the last decade. Other industries not only look at it, but are economically impacted by it. Right. So commercial real estate is impacted by wellness right now. You know, people want better seats in the offices when they're going into the offices. They want to be close to light. They want good ventilation. They want good noise protection, white noise, things like that. They're thinking of wellness features in their offices. When people shop for cars now, they want wellness features in cars. Right. Who would have thought of that before?

[00:07:06] But that could be anything from, you know, better seating or better posture all the way through to a more relaxing environment, reduced light, reduced exterior noise, things like that. The sports industry, when you look at the effect that stadium construction has on a city and municipality. Granted, we don't deal with that directly here in the fitness and wellness industry, but kind of in sports, the broader business of sports is affecting all that.

[00:07:31] So not only are the economics affecting other industries, this industry alone is growing like crazy. You know, it was $6.3 trillion globally in 2024. It's growing at 1.5 times the pace of the consumer economy. It's going to be 8.5 or 8.7 trillion. What's a couple hundred million or billion in a rounding error there in a few years time. And when you look across all these sectors, it's just booming.

[00:07:59] And the wellness economy, as we like to call it, is just impacting everything. And what we're seeing is that it's really happening because a fundamental shift in consumer behavior, not a fad. It's one where people are making major changes to their everyday habits. And through those changes to their habits, whether it's, you know, diet, whether it's exercise, whether it's sleep,

[00:08:24] whether it's financial well-being, whether it's social well-being, not just the products and services that we sell in this industry, but all the different things that are there, those, you know, daily habits that are helping people thrive instead of just survive are, you know, changing for the better. Look at the things we see every day, like, you know, not just dry January, but, you know, kind of alcohol is almost the new smoking right now.

[00:08:48] When you look at things like people reducing alcohol consumption, the growth of brands like Athletic Brewing and others like that are, you know, further signs that this is continuing to grow. So, you know, long story, the industry, I think, has always been hard on itself, but every industry is. They look from inside and they're always, oh, we're terrible, et cetera, et cetera. But this industry is really setting the pace for many others and impacting so many other industries. It's fascinating to see it, which is why I love working in it.

[00:09:15] If you were going to give us a grade, A through F, how do you think we're doing? I think an A. Really? Yeah, whether it's an A plus or an A minus is to be determined, but I would say an A. Think of all the innovation that happens in this space that other industries look to. This is one that not only other industries look to, but want to be involved in. And, you know, when you look at other industries, you don't always see that kind of thing.

[00:09:37] Like, you think of the companies we saw here, and not just companies in the industry, but a lot of investment firms, whether venture capital or private equity. Some law firms starting to ghost around in here a little bit, too, which is always scary. The big tech giants were all here. Apple, Google, and the other, you know, Samsung, the other hyperscalers like that. So, you know, they see a huge opportunity, not only with consumers, but also really with the data opportunity and with, you know, bringing in AI into everything. There's so much happening. Yeah.

[00:10:07] Everyone wants a slice of wellness. You know, it's really interesting. That's a conversation with the CMO, Blue Air. And I can't remember their parent company. Maybe you remember. But something, once again, like they're going from like they want to move from, you know, kind of an appliance technology into like the wellness space because that's what they do, right? Clean air. That's important. So now, you know, you got to educate the consumer on the importance of clean air and things like that. So it's been really interesting.

[00:10:34] I've been doing this, you know, this fitness business thing for 16, 17 years and to see its evolution into where we are now has been really cool. And you're right, man. We're very hard on ourselves. I know I am. But go team, right? Go team. We're doing all right. Every industry is hard on itself. Yeah. I find. Yeah. Well, let's get into the meat of it. So the next trillion dollars of the wellness industry, it's hard. You know, sometimes I have to write out a trillion on paper, see how many zeros that is. It's a lot of money, man.

[00:11:02] And it's a lot of opportunity, obviously, with that kind of growth. Five market disruptions that you had mentioned and that we're going to kind of focus on and discuss today. So walk us through it. We'll take our time with it. But yeah, let's get after it. Yeah, sure. I'm going to mention five. Each of them, by the way, involves AI. Okay. AI is a big enough disruption of its own. But there's an AI layer to each one of these five that I'm going to talk about. So think of it that way. Like AI is part of everything now. It's kind of like saying digital.

[00:11:31] There's a digital layer to everything that we do. Right? So now AI is becoming a layer to everything, too, as we think about it. So the first one that we look at is the convergence of industries. That happens a lot. A lot of innovation happens where industries collide. But what we're seeing in fitness and wellness is this disruption of healthcare becoming consumerized and the consumer economy becoming medicalized, if that's even a word.

[00:11:58] We're seeing a lot of things where healthcare technology is coming into consumer products. It's being commercialized that way. An example of that is Dexcom, a medtech company investing in Aura, the ring company. So that really hasn't happened much before, seeing that crossover. And no doubt we'll see Aura move into that space as wearables become healthcare companions. You know, that's happening already.

[00:12:24] The flip side of that, too, is that in the healthcare experience, people want more consumerized experiences. Right? They want a similar experience to ordering at Starbucks. Right? As opposed to using, you know, the electronic medical records that are out there and that, you know, horrible experience we have. So there's a lot of interest in accelerating that type of thing. Another great example in the wellness space is a UK company called Zoe. It's joinzoe.com.

[00:12:51] And it's a wearable CGM, a continuous glucose monitor, sold over-the-counter and it pairs to an app. So the wearable is a CGM in this case. Only available in the UK. But it tells you how your body responds to food. Okay. So kind of helping with diet and, you know, understanding what to eat and drink more. But, you know, a product like that. So the wearable is a CGM rather than a band or a watch or anything like that. And that's an interesting one where you have medical technology in a consumer product. Yeah.

[00:13:20] Now is that, that one in particular, I know it's not your business or your core competency, but is it, is that like all I would need? Like would I need an O-ring and the wearable? That's it. Just the wearable and the app. Okay. Yeah. And that is our core business is making things like that too. Okay. But yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So that's, you know, that area is one. Another big one that we've seen is the GLP-1 economy. Sure. I mean, that's incredible. So if we look at the U.S.

[00:13:47] Just in the U.S. alone, I think it was a 37 point something billion dollar industry in 2023. It grew roughly nine to 10% in 2024. And it's projected to have 31 million Americans, U.S. Americans using GLP-1s by 2030. When you think of that number 31 million, that's roughly 9% of the U.S. population. What else does nine or 10% of the U.S. population do?

[00:14:15] That's, you know, that's, that's a big number. I think only 28% of the U.S. has a college degree. So for scale, think of it that way. Only 24 million Americans have a cat or live alone, right? Maybe there's a correlation there. I can't tell. But when you think of the impact that it's having on food consumption, you know, there's a stat out there that I think the average consumption of food, meaning purchasing is going down or projected to go down 3% as a result of GLP-1s.

[00:14:44] Same store sales in quick serve restaurants that serve unhealthy food, you know, read fries and burgers and chicken sandwiches and things like that are projected. But we're seeing shifts in size curves of apparel, ingredients in food in general. And it's something that the big companies are all talking about. And one of the last things we've seen here is this kind of focus in healthcare towards prevention instead of treatment. I heard a stat over the summer from the CEO of Halion.

[00:15:13] Halion is the former GSKA Healthcare set at a conference and I won't quote it exactly, but paraphrasing it was for every dollar we spend on prevention, we can save $7.33 on treatment. So the healthcare industry has realized that it actually does better to keep you out of the healthcare industry. Yeah. Thank God. Right? So, but that's great. So that speaks to wellness and fitness and, you know, getting people off the couch as an

[00:15:37] example, eating healthier and, you know, kind of preventing as opposed to treating, getting ahead of the problem. The, uh, the GLP one, man, I am, I'm sure you've noticed, but almost every conversation I've had here at the summit has involved GLP ones. And, and, uh, the panel that went yesterday, uh, with Jeff Swiefel and gentlemen from Stanford. In fact, we talked, I talked about it in the previous interview here with Darren from Tonal. This, the, there's just so many stats that stood out to me.

[00:16:06] And a lot of them you just referenced, but one in eight Americans are on a GLP one. And that absolutely blew my mind. I have an example for you. My 83 year old mother is on them. And I said to her, you're doing this. Why hot girl walks or what? And she said, no, you know, it's something it's helping my mobility through helping me keep weight off that I've struggled to keep off for many, many years. And it's, you know, it's a miracle drug, but if she can add years to her life and life

[00:16:32] to her years through a drug that doesn't have side effects, which we don't know about yet, of course, it doesn't impact the other things that she has to take. And it can improve her mobility and again, prevent injury rather than having to treat it. You know, that could be a knee injury, a meniscus, God knows what, an ankle injury, something on stairs, right? That's, that's not, she's not trying to lose weight to look better at the country club. Yeah. Right. That's a whole different need state. Yeah. I agree.

[00:16:57] In the 30 to $60 per person in a household per week on food, a reduction from getting that right. I think I remember like 30 to 60, I'm going to repeat that $30, $60 per person in each household per week of food costs going down. That's a huge hit to the food industry. It will. It'll go elsewhere. It'll go elsewhere in the food industry, whether it's, you know, different types of food, better for you food.

[00:17:25] What we're seeing a lot with consumer behavior and habits around GLP ones is that they're not just changing the food and drink that they consume. They're exercising more. It's almost like a magical effect that is helping you see yourself in a new way, giving you confidence to do things you couldn't do before. So looking at, Hey, I can work out more and I have the strength to do it. And I'm loving the, you know, the gains and the confidence that I'm getting. Okay. So you're, you're seeing that.

[00:17:53] So you're seeing an increase in exercise with people who are getting on GLP ones. You guys have. Anecdotally. Yeah. Okay. I don't have a stat off the, off the cuff for it. Right. But I know there are ones out there. Okay. That we've, we've seen and heard. They're not ours, but the general feedback is that it's causing a shift in behavior and habits across many, many other areas of holistic wellness. And that could be just a, not just a physical change, but an emotional one as well. Okay.

[00:18:21] And that might help with social wellbeing might help you sleep better might help you, you know, financially all kinds of things that are knock on effects apart from the, you know, the immediate eat less. Right. And lose weight type of thing. Yeah. Interesting. And I think that's the thing, like a lot of, you know, curmudgeons like myself been around the industry for a while. We're like, ah, behavior change hard. There's no magic pill. Like, yeah, they may lose weight, but it's not going to make them want to exercise. Right. As we joke, like exercise, not a side effect of GOP ones. Right.

[00:18:51] But maybe it is. And I'm, I'm, I want to be wrong. Right. But I've just been around the industry for so long. And I think so. It is anecdotal. I, Jeff Swiefel said the same thing. You know, there's, there's seen signs of that, but I think as we start to see the research and the numbers come out, it'd be really interesting to see if that's, that's proven. Right. If it's out over time. Yeah. I think originally a lot of people felt this isn't a silver bullet. It's not a miracle drug, but it's turning out to be one and it is shifting other behaviors and habits. That's what's fascinating. Yeah.

[00:19:19] I think the, you know, the dark cloud that could be over the horizon is what side effects are. Yes. And the common, you know, thing that we hear a lot of is, am I going to have to stay on it forever? Right. Because it's expensive. I think they said 800 to $1,200 per month for, for the applications. It's, it's yeah, that's, that's not cheap. Okay. So where are we at here? That was the, that was the intersection and kind of convergence of healthcare and consumer. Right.

[00:19:46] The next one we see, which is directly related to what we call wellness overload, which is all the great things we're doing in wellness, all these great new products and services and trackers and wearables and gyms and all the different things we can do that are better for us. When you look at all those habit categories, we find that people make a big shift in one and that cascades into others. So if I'm making a shift to exercise more and to take care of myself and make kind of healthier choices for things, I'm not stopping at a fast food place on the way home for dinner.

[00:20:16] I'm going to think about what I'm eating a little bit more. I'm going to think about my sleep a little bit more. I'm going to understand that, you know, alcohol is probably bad. Drinking alcohol is probably bad for sleep quality. So I'm going to prioritize, you know, that that's why you see such a growth in the NA beverage market right now, et cetera, et cetera. I'm making these choices across every area, but it's so much for people to do that we're hearing that it's an overload.

[00:20:42] So we did a survey of 4,000 consumers in fitness and wellness in the US and the UK last year. And we're doing another one now where we found that I think it was 80% of consumers not only spent, you know, in wellness and fitness over the last couple of years, but intend to continue and spend at the same level or more across all these different areas. But the catch with it was half of consumers reported to us that they weren't succeeding. Right.

[00:21:11] So big growth area for the industry right there, a big opportunity is we're having 50% churn. People are buying the products and services that we have, the memberships that we have, the apps, et cetera, but they're not sticking with it because they're not succeeding. It's too much for people to do. It's too many things to think about, too many habits to follow, too many, you know, behaviors to change. And it's a lot of money. Yep. Think about all the subscriptions you need, the wearables you have to, you know, acquire by

[00:21:39] the monthly fees you have. It adds up really quickly. And all the expertise you need, whether it's, you know, a food app, a fitness app, a tracker, a wearable, all these kind of things, it just adds up and it's become almost overwhelming for people. So we've kind of looked at a recommendation for both consumers, but also companies in the industry to think about this as a stackable opportunity, right? Find your stack, find what's right for you. And this is something around personalization, but kind of think about build a foundational

[00:22:09] layer of what's most important to you. That could be fitness, that could be food, that could be sleep, that could be financial, that could be social. And then kind of stack on top of that one by one and build it kind of thoughtfully and strategically. But you can't do it all at once, right? If you try to build a tower with too many blocks, it's going to topple right away. But if you build it slowly and understand what's right and those base layers can get wider and support more as you go up, that's going to help you much more.

[00:22:37] So we think the stacking approach to it, you know, everyone in this industry always asks what's in your stack, right? And we can say that to companies too, right? Companies can't do everything that everyone's telling them to at a conference like this or that they read about or all the experts say. So that's something to think about too is kind of build your own stack. You can't do everything at once, but really build it thoughtfully and consequentially and think about what's right for you. So that's really the overload side is this kind of can't do everything and don't, you know,

[00:23:07] it'll be, you'll make yourself unwell as opposed to well by doing it. It's a very real thing. I mean, I could say that I feel it, especially, I mean, if anyone who's read Peter Attia's book, you're like... Outlive. Yeah. I like, good Lord, man. Like if I do everything that you tell me to do in this book, I'm going to have no time and I'm going to be having an empty bank account, right? Because there's so much go-to. Like who's going to do VO2 max training twice a week? Like people just don't do that, right? And then you have to have the wearable data. You have to, you know, do all the supplementation and do all this stuff.

[00:23:37] It's like... And the disposable income. And the disposable income. Yeah. That's a big part of it. So it's very real. And I think people get a lot of very confused. And there's this humorment effect, right? There's so much knowledge and consumer wellness that people are consuming nowadays. Nowadays. Like it's... Yeah, right. Yeah. Thank you. We just need air quotes. Yeah, we just need air quotes. It's too much for people to handle. They want it all, but then they don't know how to administer. So they just get frustrated and do nothing, right? So I think that's a really...

[00:24:06] I like that term wellness overload quite a bit. Is the next one... Is it hyper-personalization? Was that our next one? Or am I going over there? One size no longer fits all. Yes. Like it. Which hyper-personalization is a part of it. So I think the idea we're finding is that through all the technology that's available out there right now, but also kind of the individual nature of things. People want to be seen and heard for themselves. They want their individual needs to be seen. So what's right for you might not be right for me. And I want someone to help me with that.

[00:24:35] So personalization and knowing me is really important. There's a lot you can do with AI with that right now, which is great. What we're finding is that people are great with having AI there. They just don't want it to be the layer that they see. Okay. So it can be, you know, things can be powered by AI, but I want a human layer to that. I want a human touch. I want someone to know me and empathize with me and help me figure that out. Making sure that human layer there is really important, but people want that. I think there's also the opportunity around, you know, one size no longer fitting all to

[00:25:05] be looking at different demographic groups, whether that's age ranges, generations, but also genders. A couple of examples of that. In our report, we found that if you look at the 45 plus age group that I think we're both part of, right? I know I'm way into that age group by now. I'm there. I'm with you. You know, they're not necessarily as into wearables as you would expect. I think it was 58% have considered them, but only 12% really believe in them. Yeah. Which is an interesting thing.

[00:25:34] You could look at that as, you know, that group doesn't want wearables or how do we think about designing and developing a wearable for that group around their specific needs, which we haven't really seen people do. So you can't just design and develop for everyone as your target. Think about different demographic groups. We did a project for the AARP to help them design a new fitness concept, a new gym brand and experience that didn't have the AARP brand on it anywhere.

[00:26:00] They found that their 45 plus members, age 45 plus, wanted something that wasn't targeting 20 somethings, right? They wanted something that was targeting them and built for their unique needs, which were I'm not working out or in fitness and wellness to look hot necessarily was what they were telling us. Although they wanted to look good. They wanted to be able to do all the things in life that they still want to be able to accomplish, whether that's lifting grandchildren, not having a muscle pulled if their dog jerks

[00:26:28] them on a walk, being able to take the suitcase out of the overhead on a plane, being able to do that hike that you've always wanted to do with your friends or kick your friend's butt in tennis, right? Things like that. Yeah. Different state of needs than I want to look hot when I go to Nashville or Miami. Yeah. Right. Like that's a whole different thing. So that was something there. Another one is kind of gender focused. So think of most modalities, most programs, most things are developed, you know, unisex, right?

[00:26:54] A lot of some smart companies really focused on not only developing, designing and developing for women separately. You know, you can look at that in apparel brands like Lululemon or Aloe or things like that of, you know, they're female first almost, even though they, you know, for sure do male, but you know, a brand like P-Volve in the fitness space has become female focused. They've developed specific female focused workouts, products, and really done a great job with that.

[00:27:23] And that's something where they've thrived because they focused and leaned into who their core customer was and where their brand came from, where their business came from, where their modality came from and everything like that. So that's another interesting one. And we're seeing femtech and women's wellness growing immensely, you know, across all kinds of sectors and, you know, micro economies there. So that's another big one is think about, you know, demographics and gender. Another one in demographics is Gen Z and Gen Alpha or Gen Zalpha as many people call

[00:27:51] them, but that kind of age group, you know, up to age, what, 23, 25 right now, I think it's 25 have very, very different needs. They're prioritizing mental wellbeing over all other types of wellbeing. They're prioritizing, you know, not only mental, but all also over some of the traditional fitness motivators that we've had for many, many years. So that's a cohort, an age group that's going to have very, very different needs and wants and outcomes and definitions of success than we might have.

[00:28:21] So that's something to think of there as kind of, you know, no one size, no longer fits all. And that, you know, creates a lot of opportunities. I had a boss a long time ago who used to say the riches are in the niches and these aren't just niches anymore. They're, you know, multi hundred million dollar, billion dollar industries. So that's where there's, you know, increasing opportunity there. Look at that. The, the AI, I like what you said to kind of go in back a few steps of, you know, AI is more of an ingredient software.

[00:28:49] It's not like what people see outwardly. And I feel like when we talk about artificial intelligence now, similar to, you know, you and I remember the advent of the internet, right? The, we're struggling for how we interface with AI. I think that's kind of the phase we're in right now is like, well, how are we actually going to interact with this thing? Is it text-based? Is it voice-based? Is it there? So when you see it, do you think it's actually more contextual than that?

[00:29:16] Like AI is going to be interfaced with humans to dependent on the specific usage of the artificial intelligence? Like, have you guys thought about that kind of future vision? I think it's a lot like the internet, right? There's a kind of human layer, a presentation layer to the internet and then there's a tech layer to it. Yeah. So if I look at, you know, my whoop that I've worn for a few years, right? There's machine learning has been part of that, of whoop service and offering for a

[00:29:41] long time, but they added a human layer to it this year where it's now part of the service. You can get on and ask questions of an AI coach every day. I'm not sure how well it works yet. That's a different story, but it's getting there and they're doing a lot of different experiments with it. And that's been part of their business the whole way. So I think that's something to look at is kind of what's the human interface to it and what's the part that I interact with versus what's the technology powering it beneath,

[00:30:08] whether it's an LLM or all the other things that are happening. I mean, just look at the changes that have happened with all the agents like ChatGPT, Copilot, you know, Claude, which is one of my favorites, et cetera, et cetera, that are out there now. And how far that's come, not only in the last, you know, weeks and months, like there's always a new update. There was one from ChatGPT last week. I can't remember the name of it about company research and what it can do in terms of, you

[00:30:36] know, researching a company and getting you facts and all that is staggering. It's a pro level product from, I think it's OpenAI, but I've heard some staggering reviews on it. Yeah. Right. So it always comes down to, you know, an AI is not going to take your job. It's going to be a person who knows how to use AI is the quote you hear all the time. So I think it's that, you know, that's that human slash operator slash prompt level and how we can all interface with it. But machine learning has been around for a long time. We just, you know, there wasn't hype about it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:04] It's, uh, can't help but feel that we're the frog slowly cooking. Right. Anyway, I'm going to stay super positive. Yeah. Okay. So we're three down, right? What's, what's number four? So a question of trust to quote Depeche Mode, you worked in radio, right? So I think through all this technology and all this data that's out there, there are kind of two layers of it. One is cybersecurity, which is kind of foundational and fundamental with companies.

[00:31:32] And we, you know, coach a lot of our clients on this and work in cybersecurity with a lot of them, which is you're handling a lot of personal data, not just, you know, personal information, but you've got credit cards, you've got birthdays, you've got addresses, you've got social security numbers, you've got all of that stuff, but you also have data about where they are and things like that. So I look at one of my favorite fitness trackers that I shall not mention that I've subscribed to and use for a long time that on the maps, you can tell exactly where someone is all the time.

[00:32:00] I can tell where their office is. If I really look, I can see where they walk and I can see where they live. That's not a good thing. So they figured out a while back that, oh, we can allow people to control that and whether they want that to show up in the maps that they post after a workout without saying who they are. Right. So great company, but a fundamental thing like that, which is data that it's being exposed that way. Right. There's always something with Apple's tracker thing, whatever it's called. Right. People put those in bags, in cars, all kinds of things like that if they want to surreptitiously track people.

[00:32:30] So, you know, where there's technology, there'll always be nefarious agents out there trying to do bad things with it, evil things with it. But I think people want to trust, but they're not sure if they can trust. So it's not only cybersecurity, but what are you doing with that data? Are you selling it? Are you selling my personal information? Are you selling it, you know, as large unstructured data? You know, like a lot of the tech companies are. So there's interest in that, which is interesting. But one of the other things we've seen is this kind of trust in companies that are going

[00:32:59] into wellness that aren't really wellness companies. Right. This kind of like, hey, we're trying to do things in fitness and wellness, but it's not really who we are. It's not where we come from. We're not authentic. And consumers have a radar for that. That's where people often don't trust of like, hey, why are you in this space? It's not who you are. It's not what you're about. And are you just trying to make some money? Yeah. Are you just trying to get data, collect data, do things like that? Or what's your real motive here? Do you have an example of that? I probably shouldn't mention names, to be honest.

[00:33:28] But we see companies that consumers are kind of like, are they really in this? Can we trust them or not? Or are they just seeing another opportunity to vacuum up a lot of data and a lot of information and things like that from us? So should they really be in here or not? We don't know. There's economic opportunities. So again, the pie is growing. People want a slice of it and they want a larger slice of it all the time. But that's something that consumers are responding to. Like, can I actually trust you? Yeah.

[00:33:55] So another thing we do on an annual basis is our brand impact index at PA. And with the impact index, one of the questions we asked last year was, are you happy with the state of the world and where the world's headed? And I think 84% of consumers, they weren't happy with it. Yeah. What number? Sorry? 84%. Right. And that was last year, not this year. Okay. Right. But 61% believe that the future will be more positive.

[00:34:22] Our company is actually all about, and our purpose as a company is about a positive human future. So that's really important to us in understanding that, and which is why we wanted to understand this. So people are looking to brands and businesses to drive positive change. And that's a really interesting thing because our industry is all about positive change, right? We create positive opportunities through wellness and health for people, right? Giving them all kinds of new potential through that.

[00:34:48] But looking at consumers, expect brands to lead to change and not just make up an advertising or marketing story about it, not be mercenary about it, but be missionary about it. Make it truly part of who they are and what they're all about. So it's something we saw a lot of and something we kind of not only recommend to clients a lot of times, but also can show the economic impact of that. You're building a higher level of trust through authenticity, but also through helping the world be better, right? And that's not just a nice thing to say.

[00:35:18] It's something to really do. So you look at a brand like Patagonia, that's what they're known for, right? That's what they're all about. But many, many everyday consumer brands do a lot for this. The number one ranking brand in our survey, take a guess out of all consumer brands that you know, and it wouldn't be an obvious one who was, you know, does the most to kind of impact the world. I mean, I would guess Apple, right? Nope. Dawn. Really? Yep. Dishwashing. Dishwashing. Yeah, exactly.

[00:35:47] But looking at that, so, you know, not only impacting, making the world a better place, bringing a smile to people's face, you know, helping with trust and all that, but also has an impact on value and shareholder value for a company. So that's something too. So this kind of trust thing isn't just data, cybersecurity, things like that. It's, are you making the world a better place? Are you authentic in fitness and wellness and really part of what's happening here? Or are you just trying to grab money and grab my data?

[00:36:15] You know, what's interesting about this is something that was abuzz yesterday. Okay. And this, we're, we're about a week after the Superbowl. So all the ads came out, not even a week, but the him, him and her commercial, which is now becoming infamous about, you know, it starts off stating the issues with how sick and unhealthy our population is. Right. And I think everybody in our industry was like probably watching and be like, yes, they're doing, they're talking about it. Like, let's start this conversation.

[00:36:43] And then halfway through the ad, it just flips to like, just take this injection and you'll be fine. Right. Like, that's all you need to do. And I saw that as like a very shiny example of like, okay, here's someone who was so close to being on the right path of like, Hey, we're going to, we're going to really teach the right message. And then they just flipped it around. Obviously I think anybody who has, is somewhat intelligent and aware saw that. I was like, they're just want to make money off me. Right. But I don't know. I mean, that's whenever you were talking, that's like the perfect example of what I'm thinking

[00:37:11] about is like, they're trying, but people are sniffing it out and they're like, nah, there's something wrong. It's an interesting one. I mean, it's a Superbowl ad and Superbowl ads are meant to be noticed and talked about. Shocked. They're created for value of that. By the way, as an Eagles fan, I was less focused on the ads than the victory on the field. Congratulations. But I have to get that in there. Yeah. As a lifelong diehard Eagles fan. I'm just not a Chiefs fan. Like most people, like most Americans. Yeah. There you go. But I think the hims and hers ad had something very interesting.

[00:37:41] And it's that not a lot of people caught, which is the line of, this is the future of healthcare. Which again, goes back to what we talked about of that consumerization side of these are regulated pharmaceutical products, drugs, right? But they're really consumerized now. You look at the way the same trend happened in optical prescriptions. Right now I can do a telehealth with Warby Parker and have glasses right away. Right. That works pretty quickly. I can get ED medications, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:38:10] You know, hair loss medications, which I clearly need. All these kinds of things through a telehealth appointment and get them very quickly as opposed to having to go through the normal healthcare system and process. So I think that's what's so interesting to look at is this kind of crossover into the consumer world there. Whether it's mercenary or missionary is another story. I think it's up to consumers to decide who they trust and who they don't trust. You look at, you know, Noom has done the same thing with their, you know, behavioral and, you know, quote unquote diet app that's there.

[00:38:38] But they've added GLP-1s on that to the back of the programs and that's been wildly successful. Yeah, they jumped on that quick. Right. So, you know, ultimately consumers decide with their wallets. And I think both of those companies have grown dramatically as a result of this. And, you know, they must be trusted to be able to do that. You can't just pull that off on your own. Yeah. Okay. The last one, you know, kind of the future of the technology space. I don't know how you described it, but you got my attention and you said wearables becoming implantables, right?

[00:39:09] So, yeah. But finish this off for us. Yeah, sure. We're calling it our seamless future. So when you think of kind of the miniaturization of technology, you know, when we had rooms full of computers that move to desktops, that move to laptops, move to wearables, our smartphones, right? Think of the computing power that's in a smartphone is bigger than like, you know, a room full of computers used to be. Moving to implantables and things like that.

[00:39:35] So that kind of, you know, fundamental shift of technology being part of the fabric of our lives, as we say, is really interesting and what types of opportunities that entails, right? There are, you know, implantable, all kinds of things like that going now. So what's going to happen with wearables? What are they going to be able to do when they become more implanted? And we see that, or embedded even, we see that happening over the next three to five years, kind of at the tip of the spear and probably more, you know, five to eight in the mainstream.

[00:40:03] But there's going to be a lot of that around and a lot of things that, you know, some of the wearable companies will have to certainly get around. But it's a huge opportunity for other companies to do more. If I'm an apparel company, I don't have to necessarily put a big kind of wearable thing inside of a t-shirt or a pair of yoga pants or a pair of sneakers. That might be something I can weave into the very fabric of the product, right? So that's a very, very interesting set of possibilities that arise through that, that we're, you know, we're doing a lot of work on. Can't really talk about it, but some really interesting things going on there. Yeah. Nice. Clandestine.

[00:40:33] I like it. Where do you think, and I'll ask this question slowly so you can sip your water, the form function of a cell phone, right? It hasn't changed since really 2007. Where do you think, if you had to guess, and it's just a fun question, but where do you think that's going to be? Like, where do you think, it's got to change, right? Where do you think the smartphone is going to go to eventually in its next evolution? So what's interesting when you look at the quote unquote smartphone is how much phoning

[00:41:00] people actually do with it versus other things, right? Very few people actually call me. Right? Yeah. Right. I, you know, a lot of- My mom. And that's about it. She's 86. I have two daughters in the Gens Alpha cohort, 23 and 25. Okay. And they don't spend a lot of time talking on the phone. Like many people of our age do. Do they get irritated when you call them? Yeah. Like basic phone skills are a different thing, right? So just text me. So it's, you know, voice notes are a thing that a lot of people do right now instead of

[00:41:27] leaving a voicemail or making a phone call instead of sending a text. So I think it's basically a small computer when you really think about it. And if you look at the usage and we all get that alert that pops up every week to tell you how much time you spend on your iPhone every week, you know, that X percent more, X percent less. Congrats. That type of thing. Or slow down. You know, that type of thing. That's not talking on the phone, right? That's listening to podcasts. That's looking at social media. That's doing, you know, playing games on it. That's doing all kinds of watching Netflix, whatever that might be.

[00:41:57] So I think there's a couple of directions on it. One is what else will be on the phone? What else can the, you know, quote unquote phone do in our everyday lives? But I think there's also this move towards simplification. Think of the apps that are out there that are, let me hide my social media from, you know, time, you know, this time from to that time so that I don't go near it. Like I understand that I'm addicted to it, right? That type of thing happens a lot.

[00:42:22] I think there's kind of how do we almost like gate the technology a little bit, but also look at the book that came out. The name's escaping me right now, but it was a bestseller about phones and kids and the horrible, you know, effects that they've had. So I think there's kind of a move towards that. I think smartphones are now not illegal, but there's a better word for it in Australia. You can't have them between a, you know, you can't have them in schools, restricted in schools, that type of thing, which everybody said, you know, wonderful, great idea.

[00:42:51] The kids might protest that, but I think that's something interesting. Like it's demonstrated that there's a negative effect of all that technology on our brains, right? I've seen it personally, just noticed like, Hey, I'm spending way too much time doing this on my phone. I need to, I need to stop. It's got a negative effect. And I've tried to do a lot with that. That's wellness when you think about it. So I think a lot of this comes full circle of what we're doing with the computer that we have in hand all the time, as well as the ones we're wearing and the ones that could

[00:43:20] be, you know, embedded, implanted at some point is what's happening with our eyes. What's happening with us socially with them, with all this power, are we using it for good or is it, you know, companies trying to make money off of us and profit from us and ultimately having a negative effect on our wellness? Yeah. Long answer to a simple question. I think there is, there is no short answers on this show. Either that or it'll be the phone in Zoolander. Yeah. The little tiny thing. Dave, this has been super interesting, man.

[00:43:50] Thank you. I mean, we have a lot of conversations that are based on opinion and experience and things like that. And you guys are bringing in, you know, a solid amount of research, which, you know, I think is something that's, that's really important that we remember that like, no, actually research is critically important to our opinions here. So really appreciate it. If people want to get ahold of you personally, is there a place you'd like them to go? Sure. My LinkedIn is always a great place or the PA Consulting website. Last name is spelled K-N-I-E-S like Evel Knievel.

[00:44:20] And so LinkedIn is great and PA Consulting is paconsulting.com. Awesome. Really easy. Yeah. Really appreciate it. And enjoy the rest of the show. Likewise. Thanks, Eric. This was great. Thank you, man. I'm going to ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it.

[00:44:48] iTunes, Spotify, CastBox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media. Talk about it to your friends. Send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. And we want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me. Simply go to the futureoffitness.co.

[00:45:15] You can subscribe to our newsletter there or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone and this is The Future of Fitness. Have a great day.