Juliet Starrett & Alex Alimanestianu - Quarterly Earnings Reports, Peloton's Future, Peter Attia's "Outlive"

Everybody, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness industry podcast for over four years and running. I'm your host, Eric Falzone, and I have the absolute pleasure of talking to entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, and cutting-edge technology experts within the extremely fast-paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. Please stop by futurefitness.co to subscribe and get our interviews and summaries delivered straight to your inbox. You'll also find our free industry report on artificial intelligence. Five industry experts, five different opinions, and tons of valuable insights for free at futurefitness.co. Thanks for listening and on to the show. Back for its fifth year, the Connected Health and Fitness Summit is returning February 7th and 8th in 2024 to explore the industry's most lucrative opportunities and hottest trends. Come learn how legendary players and innovative brands are implementing preventative health and longevity-focused initiatives into their businesses. Discover how to successfully tap it against consumers, meeting demands for holistic and wellness-centered fitness offerings. Stay one step ahead of your competitors and learn how to take your brand to the next level by leveraging artificial intelligence into your framework. Secure next investment by keeping up to date on where investors are prioritizing their spending and realizing white space opportunities. Build relationships and share ideas at the Women in Connected Fitness and CEO Founders Forum. The Connected Health and Fitness Summit is bringing together the strongest brands in fitness and beyond for two days of quality networking and curated content to get you ahead of the game. Go to Connected Health and Fitness.com to download the agenda and find out more. Use code FOF10 for an exclusive 10% discount on your event ticket. That's connectedhealth and fitness.com, code FOF10, and do not wait. Seats are very limited. Right. We are back. Juliet, Alex, I'm so excited to get back on this industry deep dive. I think that's what we call the first one, but it doesn't matter. Like this is uh this is a ton of fun for us to do. We've been preparing for this for months. Uh it's so good to see you guys, you know, live virtually. Um, so yeah, it's it's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh any any opening remarks from from the crew here?

I'm just excited to get into it, man. It's amazing how much can happen. I mean, I think we did our last one in July or August, and um there's been a lot going on, and there's there's more to discuss than we can we can possibly touch on in this this hour. So I'm excited.

Yeah. Yeah, like Alex. How about you? Yeah, like I'm um, you know, I love the industry, I love the news. So uh, and I feel like what we're doing is uh different from what's out there. So hopefully the audience appreciates that. And you know, and thanks of course to you, Eric, for giving us the platform to uh to present this.

Oh, it's trust me, it's my pleasure. And you know, to give you guys, uh not you people, but the people who are listening, uh, some insights and what we're gonna be covering today. Uh we are gonna get into the earnings reports, right? There's some ones that recently came out, and uh, you know, Alex, we're gonna kind of let you lead that conversation. That is very much your world. Um, we're gonna talk about specifically Peloton and what that means for the industry, um, their success and failures along the way. Um, we'll get some opinions on that. We'll get into longevity as a category, specifically blue zones and Peter Atiya's Outlive, which is making uh quite the rounds as far as conversations and uh and many things about that book that we can divulge into. But first and foremost, let's get an update because Juliet, you were recently in Washington, D.C., right? And there's been, as we kind of alluded to before our conversation started recording, there's been it seems like a lot of advocacy going on in Washington, D.C. for the fitness and wellness industry. So maybe you could just give us some insights. What happened there? What was the mission? What were the uh the takeaways?

Sure. I'll I'll start with the first thing. I was speaking on a congressional panel on women's performance. And, you know, it's this is a really interesting backstory and the reason why we were there in the first place. I think the audience will be interested to know. Um, but the military in particular is spending a lot of money and attention on making the military more welcoming and making it possible for women to have successful and long careers in the military. Unfortunately, the reason they're doing that is that you may have heard this piece of data floating around the news sphere, but 70, that's 70% of 18 to 22-year-old boys no longer physically qualify to join the military. Um that is for a variety of reasons, all of which are relevant to this podcast, of course. Um, you know, health, uh general metabolic challenges, obesity, the opioid epidemic, um, other drugs, you know, prison. But there's a variety of reasons why boys in that age category, generally speaking, aren't doing well. And as a as the mom of two girls, of course, I kind of want to fist bump in the air because who is doing well is girls. Girls are crushing boys by all metrics, um, especially in education, um, graduation rates, test scores, college admissions, graduate school admissions, graduations. I mean, pretty much any med metric we're looking at in terms of education, in particular, women are by far outpacing uh men. Um and but at the same time, of course, that's bad for all of us and bad for society. And so maybe the underlying reason for this congressional panel is a bit depressing. But you know, we we were there to try to discuss the fact that most research on anything related to health, wellness, and fitness is done on men, so there's not good data. There's also a lot of really low-hanging fruit in the military in particular. I mean, things like helicopters are all designed, you know, for people who are at least five foot eight and uniforms don't fit and backpacks don't fit. And so, so, you know, I what I hope, and my particular interest in this is, you know, while I am, of course, interested in the military piece, what I'm hoping is that the policy change that comes out of this has a sort of broader population level impact on things like PE in school, um, you know, childhood obesity, youth fitness. And I'm hoping that the policies that come out of this actually help boys and girls equally, of course, um, because this is a a real serious problem. And so it was an honor to be able to speak there. I've never spoken on a congressional panel. I had to buy a suit, um, which I haven't worn back since my lawyer days. Um, and then the second piece is Kelly and I have um have been supporting two presidents, um, not necessarily directly, but um, you know, they have I I would describe it as a human performance staff that work at the White House. So um coaches and physical therapists and people who are, you know, helping um keep our presidents uh you know high functioning and and feeling good in their bodies. And we've been behind the scenes supporting a couple different presidents, and so we've had an open invitation for a while to come and visit the White House and meet the president. And so we were already in DC for this congressional panel, and of course we took up the opportunity and it was we we ended up getting a four-hour uh private tour of the White House. We sat in the Oval Office and the cabinet room. Um, you know, it was like a four-hour history lesson in you know, American presidential history. It was fascinating. Um, I highly recommend it. You know, we I'm sure you saw on Instagram we had to really carefully post. I would say the Ready State Net lost about 600 followers. Um, but it could have been worse, I would say. Uh, you know, Kelly and I really tried to emphasize that this was not our involvement with it with the White House and all the work we do is deeply non-political. Um, and you know, we're just there to, you know, you know, help people be healthy and happy. And then as an aside, one of my dreams in life is I want to try to be on the president's physical fitness council one day in my life. So I was hoping that maybe that visit might do something for that. So it was a very cool experience on both fronts. And I'm hoping some really um amazing policy changes come out that help, you know, boys and girls in particular and and women and you know, increases the amount of federal funding for research on women in particular. So so it was a very cool experience. Thank you for asking.

Yeah, well done. Well done. And I believe I saw uh I'm on Stacy Sims email newsletter uh or of some sort, and she sent out a petition this morning too. So that's flying around, right?

Yes.

Uh is there a place where people can go find that easily?

Uh yeah, um I actually have it in my in my link tree on my Instagram if people want to go sign it. But it basically is just a petition petition um encouraging Congress to spend more money on uh research um that is women-specific and relevant to women, um, you know, which I think will help the military and women generally in in all of health and medicine. So um you can find it at my link tree.

Right on, right on. Let's start let's go to Capitol Hill. How exciting. Uh all right. Well, let's get on to section number two. And Alex, there's uh there's quite a bit of stuff going on. I mean, today um some reports came out over the like, especially over the last three days. It's been uh probably a lot of uh coffee and reading for you, my friend. Um Where where would you like to start? I mean, we have Peloton, we have Lifetime, uh, we had Planet come out this morning.

Let's start with um with Planet. Uh I haven't done a deep dive on their third quarter yet, but they released this morning. Um and there's been drama there since September when the CEO was uh unexpectedly uh dismissed and with no explanation. Um the he's been a he's the longtime CEO, been at the company forever, started at the front desk, took it public 10 years ago, uh you know, ran ran it well for for many years, uh, and was dismissed in September. The stock dropped from in from the 60s to the 40s uh because the company didn't explain what was going on. And whenever a CEO gets dismissed unexpectedly, the um the street assumes the worst, uh, usually some sort of financial impropriety. Uh but none of that has been uh the issue, you know, was was pointed to by the by the board. They appointed an interim CEO, they're looking for a new CEO. And over the um you know, the month, uh month and a half since he's been gone, um, they haven't announced any new CEO. I don't know if either of you is looking for a job, but it uh or a different job. But um uh I'm certainly not. Uh the uh but anyway, so they released their earnings today. The company's chugging along, doing well, um, and the stock is basically recovered to where it was in September. Um so the drama is uh for the time being over. Uh and we'll see who they come up with as a new CEO. It's uh it's uh you know, Planet Fitness has close to 19 million members. It's the highest valued company in the sector. Uh it's so it's it's clearly a leader, whether you you know go there or don't go there, um as a you know, as a as a uh your club of choice, obviously uh they are very popular amongst a lot of people. 2,500 you know units, um and uh you know they're adding about 150 to 160 this year. So it's a it's they're doing they're doing fine. And uh it's good to have the drama uh over with.

Is there uh Alex, would you say there's more drama in the fitness industry than there are in other industries when you look at uh publicly traded companies?

Well, if you're in the crypto industry, I would say right, right, there, right. Right. There's probably more drama there. If you're in if you're a WeWork um you know, follower, um no, there's drama everywhere. And it's just the nature of I think business. And um you know, there are a lot of there are a lot of ways to run businesses. Um and uh not everybody, you know, runs them in a uh takes the high road, is ethical, is straight. And um I don't think no, absolutely not. The fitness industry is is not any more dramatic, I don't think, than any other industry. Good to hear.

Um what's next then? I think uh Lifetime, you want to go to that?

Yeah, sure. So Lifetime released a few uh weeks ago, and they I posted on this in LinkedIn and I was I was surprised. Their numbers were really good. And and yet the stock dropped 20% or so. Um it's down from the public offering price of 18, which happened two years ago. Uh it's trading around, it's up today, it's trading around $13, a little over 13 today. Uh, but two years on the public market, and you know, they're trading significantly below the IPO. So that's they're not they're not getting any credit uh on the street for what they're doing. Um and I think you know, there's there's uh a theme with lifetime going back many, many years. Because they were they were public before in the in I think in the late 2000 aughts, they went public. Um and uh and then they went private in 2015, um, and then they went public again in 2021. Um so they've been to this rodeo a couple of times, and they didn't they weren't getting credit you know in 2015, so they said let's go private. Um they went private for about four billion dollars in in uh enterprise value. Uh today they're worth about to say. So and they've added about 50 clubs in the in the interim, and you know how big their clubs are. So 50 clubs times many, many millions of dollars, and your your valuation doesn't change. That's that's a problem. So they got they I think they have to they have to uh and and you know what I said it what in my post was they're they have to figure out a way to uh grow without spending 500 600 million dollars a year, um which is what they're they've been doing. Um so they're trying to figure that out. Um and you know the I do give them credit, the member experience is amazing. Um, but I do feel like the shareholder experience also needs to be good. And if you're not getting a return on your investment as the shareholder, they're not they're not taking care of the shareholders. So, you know, you gotta take care of all your stakeholders. I'm not just saying the shareholders, but your employees, I think they do a great job. The members they do a great job. Um, but and their communities, I think they take care of, but the um the shareholder experience is not a plus.

I ask a question, Eric. I know that you're running this um for Alex, but what what I, you know, again, because this is not my area of expertise, but thanks to this podcast, I've been doing a ton more reading on it. And actually, after the last podcast, I talked to my own financial advisor to ask his opinion on Planet Fitness. And what I've seen in some of your posts and read is that it seems like Wall Street doesn't really like these fitness businesses. Um, and is that is that just because this is what I'm focused on, is is is that true for all across all industries? And then my second question is why would any of these companies want to go public? I mean, after I hear this lifetime story, um obviously we've all watched F-45 that has, you know, gone dark and that didn't go well. Um and there's so few of them anyway that are public that I I wonder what would even why why would any company do that? Because it doesn't seem like when they do, they're getting credit like Planet Fitness should be, um, in terms of how successful it is.

Great question. Yeah, that's a great question. The um I think when capital is cheap, equity capital is cheap, as it has been uh during the past three, four years, not now, but when interest rates rates were very low, the public markets were offering companies cheaper capital. And so if lifetime you know is considering how they're gonna finance their growth, and they're uh they're looking at a public market that is is offering equity at a you know relatively low price, um they're gonna go in that direction. There, there's there's other uh F45. Um, you know, I I I assume it's it's a combination of cheap cheap capital plus liquidity. If the shareholders want liquidity, sometimes the public markets are the best way to go. Um, you know, the SPAC phenomenon was a was a factor. Uh Beachbody, I think was uh I believe was the SPAC. Um you know it's Wall Street can be very seductive and offer a lot of uh you know uh options and wealth to the directors, to the shareholders, to the management. Um so it's it's uh it's a combination of things. Um but the fitness industry can do fine on uh in the public market. It just the companies need to be run in a way that um that you know enhances shareholder value. And and I think I think Lifetime could do it. They just they just need to slow down growth, um, you know, uh run the business for cash flow, accumulate, accumulate more uh more cash, and consider share buybacks, consider dividends, uh things that shareholders benefit from. Um the other thing with Lifetime that I did want to mention um was they're doing a uh a pilot program with Ozempic. I don't know if you if you saw this.

I did see that. I did. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I I feel like that's gonna be uh, I mean, you know, we know Noom is doing that. You know, Noom completely restructured their business to have this medical side where they're prescribing Ozempic as well as trying to help people with lifestyle changes. And I saw that Lifetime was doing that, and I feel like that's gonna become a really important part of you know, a lot of gyms and other fitness spaces. I mean, I don't know that anyone's just gonna drop what they were doing, but I think they're gonna have it as a component. I think it's smart.

I I totally agree.

I agree. Because these, you know, to do this successfully, it needs to be monitored, right? And what like what better place than than somewhere like Lifetime? And you know, one thing I wanted to to bring up too, and uh maybe you've heard that I'm not here to spread rumors, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Uh the um I've heard from credible source that uh many small um or numerous small gyms like CrossFit gyms are getting letters from Lifetime to buy them, to buy out their real estate. And I'm wondering if you guys have heard anything. I know uh Juliet, you have a strong connection to the CrossFit community. Have you guys heard anything about this? I mean, it seems like an interesting consolidation play. I have some theories about it, but yeah, any any rumors out there on on that?

Oh man, I mean, I haven't actually directly heard that, but I find it very interesting. And to the extent that they've been trying to grow in in their physical space. Um, and and to the extent that the c the few lifetimes that I've been in over the last few years, they've actually really tried, at least a couple of them, have tried to move away from that globo gym model where everything is in these rooms and try to make really follow the CrossFit gym model to have these big open spaces and training facilities that like I was in a lifetime that looked a lot like a CrossFit on the inside. Um, so I yeah, for whatever it's worth, I I can't say it's a bad idea. And if I still owned a CrossFit and they came knocking, it would certainly be something to think about.

Be intriguing.

You know, I think I think the complexity, of course, comes, I mean, I guess if you just become a lifetime, then you know you can. Yeah, I I I I I would be intrigued for sure. I haven't heard that, but I'm gonna try to get more, I'm gonna try to get more insider information now that I know this.

Well, in the next uh the next one in three months from now, we'll we'll have some updates on that, on that reporting. Um let's get on to the bell of the ball, Peloton, right? That's uh seems to dominate a lot of industry headlines. You know, what what are some of your takeaways uh from their reporting, uh Alex? And we'll kind of get into uh that'll dovetail into what we think Peloton means, you know, success, failures for the industry overall. Um so let's start with the reports.

Yeah, so let me actually zoom out a little bit and talk about um a little bit of the history of Peloton uh as a public company. So they in 2019, four years ago, uh pre COVID, uh they go public. And There's really three different eras for Peloton as a public company. Pre-COVID, COVID, and post-COVID. I hesitate to call it post-COVID, but hopefully we're somewhat past COVID. So pre-COVID, they go public. So I think people forget that. And of course, you know, people are short-term in terms of how they think about public companies and and uh and you know they made a lot of mistakes along the way. So anyway, pre so that's that's sort of the the um uh you know the good the good news is they've grown a lot since they they went public. Um the the bad news is they went public at $29, they're now at $5. So as a public company they have not uh performed, at least not if you look at their price today. Um the uh you know the COVID uh Peloton is a rocket ship. Um, you know, they can't they have more demand than they can meet. They don't have to spend a dollar on marketing because everybody's just you know trying to order a Peloton and they don't they don't they don't need to advert advertise, which which um makes the company incredibly uh profitable during during COVID. Um and then uh and then you get to you know you get to a stock price of $170. Um, you know, you you get quarters where they're making $100 million of of eBITDA, so incredibly profitable. Um and then you get the post-COVID uh Peloton, which is which is where we're at today. Um and basically it's a business that is flat. It's a flat, it's a flat business. It doesn't make money. Um you know, the the kudos to the management, the new management, the new CEO who came in a couple years ago, um inherited a a mess of a company that had made all sorts of strategic decisions based on COVID uh revenue and you know, projecting that basically everybody was gonna work out at home, nobody was gonna go to the gym anymore, and it was gonna be like the the movie bit the movie uh you know um the movie business where everything went to the home and and and came out of the theaters. Um, you know, so so kudos to them for that. But now there's you know, the post-COVID Peloton is uh trying to reinvent itself. Like, you know, what's our what's our path from here? You know, what's our what's our growth uh trajectory? What's our what's our strategy overall? Are we more than a bike company? They certainly, you know, they want to be. Are we a hardware company or are we a content company? What you know they want to be a content and a software company, they want to be available to people everywhere, not just in your home. Um and and they want to grow, obviously. Um is that the right strategy for them? I uh I would say the the jury is out. I mean, they are trying so many things, so many, like so many irons in the fire. It it's just a uh it's hard to keep track of all the initiatives. And when I see that in a company, uh even the size of Peloton, I I just think, okay, they don't really have a uh uh a game plan. It's it's kind of like we're going to uh just throw a lot of darts, we're gonna take a lot of swings. And you know, think back. I looked back a year ago, what they were focused on was their relationship with Amazon and their relationship with Dick Sporting Goods. And you know, we're gonna we're gonna sell like crazy through other through third parties. Um the CEO didn't even mention that this quarter. Right. Zero. Right. Um, you know, now the growth is supposed to be around the treadmill, you know, six thousand dollar treadmill. Like, really? How many people are gonna buy that?

Um, I mean, I just also it's also really big. Um, and I don't think can like you have to have like a two-story garage to fit it in your garage as well. You know, that's just one of many challenges.

Yeah, no, it's it's a uh it's a treadmill for people with big home gyms who have a lot of space and a lot of money. Um it's not, in my view, it's not gonna move the needle. Uh it's a great, I'm sure it's a great treadmill, um, but I I don't think it's gonna move the needle. Um, you know, they have a rental program that they're they're talking up, um where you know you can you can rent it on a month-by-month basis, and um there they have I think 50,000 of those um i in the home, you know, in in the homes, but that's tiny. Is that really gonna move the needle? I mean, it could, I guess. You know, they're talking about international, they're talking about uh, you know, the NBA and WNBA uh partnership and partnerships with Lululemon, which which actually, you know, is one that I think is is pretty is pretty good. They said they'll make they'll make $10 million off that in the second quarter. So that's a real number. That's the only partnership where they attached a real number to what what was going on. Um so anyway, I I think it's it's a uh there's an identity crisis. They got to figure out if they're a growth company or if they're uh they they you know they they're a company that has the cash cow, um, the bike with the subscriptions, and just you know, forget about the rower and the treadmill and the guide and and just focus on the bike, focus on that, plus the app, uh, and try to just again give the shareholders a good experience rather than just the members.

Well, you know, you look at the connected fitness market overall, right? And I think, you know, there's a couple of things that Peloton definitely has going for them. Number one is their brand. Like it's such a strong brand. I mean, they are the you know, the kleenex of facial tissues, the the chapstick of lip balm, right? Like they just got out early. People recognize it, like when they think about home connected fitness, they think about Peloton, right? That's what everyone talks about. Like during the pandemic, it's like, well, everyone's buying a Peloton. There was other competitors, right? There's the tonals, there's the mirrors, there's all these other ones, but everyone really stuck to the brand and Peloton. So that's very strong. You know, I don't know how to monetize a really strong brand, you know. Um, yeah, I don't know. There's probably a million people who could, but that seems to be one thing. I mean, when you guys look at Peloton and then the connected fitness category overall, what is your what do your senses tell you? Like where do you think it's heading? Is it going to be, you know, a permanent fixture in people's homes moving forward? Is it gonna grow again in in market share? Like what what do you guys think?

Well, I'll just add a couple of things to what Alex said. And thank you for the dartboard analogy, because that's exactly what I was thinking. You know, I think of myself as much more of a lay person reading these reports, Alex, that you send. So I'm always really curious to see what your expert opinion is. But when I read through this, I thought the exact same thing. I literally just felt like they were just, you know, shots fired and seeing what was gonna land. And I had the exact same thought. I was like, what about this dick sporting good things we were thing we read about in, you know, the June report or whenever we last read the report. So so I thought that was really interesting. And I'm glad that that's how you described it, because that was my exact same feeling. And, you know, I feel really mixed about connected fitness. I mean, I think maybe the bit one of the biggest lessons that we all learn from COVID is that human beings need to be around other human beings. And I think that that is gonna continue to cut the legs out of this connected fitness market. Um, I just, you know, I still think there's probably like the workplace always going to be some kind of hybrid model for most people. And it's gonna depend on the seasons of people's lives. You know, I think for people who have small children, having some kind of connected fitness device in a home gym might be critical and the only way they can exercise. And then I think when, you know, you don't have to be at home and can actually, you know, commune and exercise around other people. I mean, you know, I was recently just in a bay club in my area. A friend of mine is a is a member of a bay club. Um, and man, that place, nobody's really exercising in there. That's what I saw. I was like, nobody's exercising here. This is a social club. Um the exercise is a sideshow. And so I, you know, I I don't, I don't know. I feel like at best, these these are these connected fitness companies are gonna hold a small sort of sliver of the market in our lives, um, and probably still are only gonna be used mostly by people who have space and extra, you know, extra money to burn. Because for average people, if they have to choose now between going, you know, being a gym member or owning a Peloton, my guess is more people are gonna choose to be a gym member because they want to be around other humans. I don't know what do you think. Yeah.

Yeah. And I it's a really interesting thing in what you mentioned too, Alex, about the cash cow. Like attention creep is a big deal. I, you know, we kind of saw this with F-45. You know, they just started their attention started creeping into other areas that just got their energy and time away from like whatever their primary cash cow is. And um, so you know, there's a lot of distraction there, it seems. But one of the things I I do like is when I was looking at their BDB wellness, right? So, like when you start talking about hospitality and when you start talking about corporate wellness, when you start, you know, injecting your cash cow into different markets or sub-niches of the market, I think that's a really strong play. And I can, you know, I could see that being very valuable because when people do travel, they're like, ooh, a Peloton. Like I've done it, I've gone to a hotel or something like, ooh, a Peloton. Right. And I get so excited, I get to use the Peloton. Um, you know, it's just that brand strength that you can move forward. So I mean, those seem to be like really strong initiatives, but you know, I'm I'm interested to get your guys' opinions.

Yeah, I mean, I I think that the home, the option to exercise at home is uh is gonna be with us and and it's gonna be compelling to a lot of people. It's it's not it's a hybrid, it's an and situation. Um so I I think having the option at home, whether it's a bike or or a you know, or a mirror or a treadmill or or on your you know iPad, um, you know, having that option is is really helpful to people. I think it's super convenient. You don't always have the time to get to the gym and and uh you know and and it and and that is a couple hours for most people. Um and that you know, if you're if if you're time pressed, uh I think the home option is great. And and I I don't see that uh going away. Um I really I really think um so I I think Peloton is a stable business. I I is it a growth business? Uh can they extend, you know, we were talking about University of Michigan before, and now they're they have a partnership with the University of Michigan, they have a partnership with with Liverpool Football Club, they have um you know all these brand extensions that they're trying to do that are probably relatively cheap, but um uh but are they really moving the needle? So that you know, Peloton at one point wanted to have a hundred million members. I mean, they thought that was their their town. Um they're at you know, three and plus some app members. And so, you know, are they going to ten, are they going to six? I I don't I you know, I don't know. But but uh I don't I haven't heard anything, I haven't seen anything that suggests that they're um they have a new uh major growth initiative that's really gonna double the size of the business.

You know, the other the other thing I was gonna say, sorry to interrupt, Alex, that I thought was genius about Peloton from the moment I saw it was the combination of the bike plus the programming. And I always think about this when I go into a hotel gym or even sometimes like a globo gym, like a lifetime or a bay club, is that people have no idea what to do. When you go into a home, when you go into a hotel gym, you see people just, you know, they get on the elliptical for five or 10 minutes and maybe they do a few little lifting moves. And so I think what people really need and crave often is programming. And I think that's what Peloton really brought to people is this combination of a simple thing you could put in your home gym or your house in the corner of your living room, combined with fun programming, which is what people really need and probably why you're excited when you see one in a hotel gym, because it's not about the bike. It's about, okay, you can get in there and you don't have to think about what you're gonna do and you know you're gonna sweat hard and get some work done and go about your day. And and so, yeah, I mean, I think that that lasts, you know, and and I do think, you know, I I know a lot of people, even CrossFit people who have they have the Peloton app because they travel a lot and they want to be able to have access to the programming wherever they go. So, so I I agree. I mean, I don't think it's going anywhere. I think they do need to figure out who they are and what they're doing. But I also think um, you know, it's they've they've done a lot of really awesome things for you know, generally for people's health and wellness and fitness and access to programming. And you know, again, I'm a cheerleader. I I want them to do well.

Yeah, me too.

The the last thing I I I wanted to point out, well, two two things. One, um, they spent $75 million uh last quarter on research and development. Um, and that that is great for the industry if they're spending it wisely, which I have no idea. But I I am concerned that you know they've spent a lot of money on the treadmill, on the guide, on the rower, and I don't think those are returning much to them at all, to to shareholders, to the company. Um so I, you know, it's a big number, and uh it overall, if it's spent well, I think it's great, but I I question whether whether it is. Um and the other thing that I noticed that that is, you know, may maybe too inside baseball, but you know, they have commitments, contractual commitments on things that are that are mind-boggling in in quantity in in the size. Like they they have to spend a hundred million dollars over the next year on music, right? Music rights. A hundred million dollars. Oh that is staggering. Yeah. Um, I agree the music is really an important part of the experience.

Today I'm joined by Curtis Christofferson on my very first micro interview on the future of fitness. Kurt is the owner and founder of Workout and Innovative Fitness. He is a 20-year veteran in the wellness space and he's got the success to prove it. He's also a long-term friend and colleague. Kurt just recently launched a newsletter called Healthy Ambitions to give back to the industry that's given him so much. His goal to help other entrepreneurs scale their wellness businesses just like he has. All right, Kurt, what is one actionable insight you can provide our listeners that has been incredibly valuable to you in your business career?

Wow, powerful question. And I could have so many answers to that one. But, you know, I'd say that, you know, the biggest element of scaling your business is hiring the right people. And without the right people, you can't scale. And, you know, one of my token rules is hire people that you admire. Hire who you admire. When you do that, chances are the people that you admire have some level of experience, education, or impact that you might not be able to provide. And so when you hire people that you admire and the value that they bring to your organization, inevitably they're gonna help you scale your business, no matter how big or small it is. When you hire people that are unlike yourself that contribute value that you can't contribute, you're winning. And so my biggest rule hire who you admire, whether it's the things that you admire about them around their education, experience, impact, or even how they lead their personal life. I think when you surround yourself with great people, you're winning the day.

Oh, that's awesome. Kurt, thank you so much for that. And if you guys want to learn more, please check out the Healthy Ambitions newsletter. You can go to Curtis Christofferson.com to subscribe and learn more about it and all the great content he's putting out there. Thank you, Kurt. Awesome. Thanks.

But that that just seems crazy to me in the business model. You know, they have over $100 million.

That is a lot of money.

That is. And and maybe there's an ROI on that, you know, but it feels like they gotta they they still have some expenses like like the RD, you know, the music expense. Um, they built a 300,000 uh square foot office in New York City that they're paying $30 million a year on. They don't like crazy. Anyway, enough.

Well, there was there was one other one other thing about my reading a Peloton that piqued my interest, I want to mention, and I know we need to move on, but I I also saw that there they reported that they weren't very successful in engaging and retaining their free members. And I was particularly interested in that only because, you know, as someone who is you know offering an app and having free trials, I've always had a very mixed feeling about free anything. Um, and I I have a free trial on my own product because I feel like it's industry standard and I have to, but I honestly kind of hate free trials. I mean, I'm a I'm an abuser of free trials in my own use. And, you know, um anyway, I just I I thought it was interesting to see that, you know, at some point it, you know, people we we need to move beyond this, let's give everything away for free model. Um it's, you know, we've trained all of our customers to expect to get everything for free, and I don't think it's done any company any favor. Um, you know, and and most of the time we're talking about relatively low price things. I mean, you know, under $20. And my feeling is, man, if people just paid their $20 and then bailed, at least the company would have gotten $20. So I don't know. I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that, but but I I didn't realize they had this whole freemium model, and I'm not surprised to see that people weren't then converting.

Yeah. No, it's interesting. I mean, and you're right, it is like seems like an industry standard or any kind of subscription model. They always want to get you in, and then you you gotta give your credit card. But it's um I've seen a lot of apps launch and everybody just feels compelled to give it away for free. I've actually haven't seen any that I can recent memory where people are like, no, we just charge them. We just charge it. You're gonna pay. And then, you know, that's that's up to you. And I think um I wanna there is one key point that I want to make on this because it came up in conversation this week about just connected fitness overall, and then we can move on. But there's an asset that these companies are sitting on that not a lot of people are talking about, and that's the unique data sets, right? This is data that really hasn't been available. And I know there's um a company that we've mentioned here, I can't say who they are yet, but you know, they're going to launch a report soon that is open source, right? Some of the most detailed reports on strength training of all ages, of all categories, right? And that's going to be open to the industry. So I think that's really freaking cool. Um, and you know, I'm not a data scientist, I don't know how to turn data into money, but there's a lot of people way above my pay grade who are. Um, so I think that's something that people haven't really um thought about, at least within our industry yet. But there's a lot of you know very smart people working on the problem. That being said, longevity, let's get into it. I've been looking forward to this uh for a while. So um it's a big word right now in the industry, right? Uh longevity, we've got uh, I know Juliet, you and Kelly have done some research into blue zones, very interesting stuff. Uh we all um took a really, really good look at Peter Atia. Is it Atias or ATIA? I think it's ATIA. I think it's ATIA. Peter Atia. Peter, if you're listening, probably not. But uh sorry if I butcher your name. Outlive, right? That book. I mean, have you guys talked to anybody who's talked about it recently? I mean, it seems to be quite a hot topic. So um, you know, let's start. With, I guess, yeah, let's just start with Outlive. Let's start with the book, right? So your guys' overall impressions, and then we can kind of dive into other categories of longevity. And uh, Julia, let's let's start with you. What's your overall impression?

Well, I mean, I'll start with saying that I think it's an extremely important book and well-timed. And, you know, I I actually, as I read it, this wasn't what I went into it thinking. What I hoped is that other doctors actually read this book. Um, you know, from a sort of practical health advice standpoint. Um, I think there's some really interesting innovative things. And I think there's also a lot of things that other people have been saying. Um, you know, he's the sort of repeating, I think what a lot of us have been saying in the industry for a long time is it's really about these basic things. It's sleep, nutrition, exercise, connection. Um, you know, he's not the first person to say any of those things together. Um, but what I do hope is that the medical community starts to pick up these lessons and that, you know, this idea of medicine 3.0 does come to pass. I mean, this is a bit off topic, but we just had Dr. Andy Galpin on our podcast and he introduced me to this idea of the digital twin. And I don't know if you guys are familiar with digital twins that have been, you know, commonly used in industry, um, but it's it's sort of one big part of this medicine 3.0 personalized medicine, where, you know, they make a digital twin of you and they run a thousand tests on it, and then they say, okay, Eric, these are the three supplements you should take that work for you. And, you know, you if you get cancer, this is the exact treatment that's going to work for you. I mean, it and and you know, Andy says this isn't 30 years off, this is five years off. Um, so I think, I think to the extent that, you know, his book gets in the hands of physicians in particular and maybe actually starts to move the needle on this sort of sick care system we're we're in, um, that is a gigantic win for me. You know, on the on the negative side, I thought it was very difficult to read. Um, and like you, Eric, I found it slightly anxiety. Um and I fear that everybody's buying this book, but nobody's actually reading it. Um and and you know, I it's been interesting for me to talk to my friends who are uh are saying, Oh, hey, I read Out Live. And then from it, they the sole piece of advice they've taken is, well, maybe I need to add some strength and conditioning into my life. And I think, man, okay, you must not have actually read the book because there was a lot going on in there. And certainly he's a gigantic proponent of exercise. I know he puts it as at the top of his list. Um but man, for you know, these sort of lay people in my community reading this book, of the only takeaway they have is that they should lift weights. Um, I'm not convinced they actually read the book. Um and and then I just, you know, we've all talked about this before. I mean, to actually do Peter's program, you know, it's it's not just for the one percenters, it's for the private jet set. I mean, you know, to be able to do VO2 max testing and get annual MRIs and four colonoscopies a year and extremely in-depth extended blood panels and be able to track a lot of these metrics. I mean, you know, there are not very many people who can actually follow his program just from a purely financial standpoint. Um, so so I I would say my critique is that, you know, it's it's just not that accessible. But I also don't know that that was his goal. And again, I go back to this hope that this, you know, my hope is that it really does influence the medical community in a meaningful way. Because then I think, then I think to the extent the medical community is able to sort of distill those lessons and start to apply them in their practice, you know, then it would have this sort of population level impact. Um, but I I think it's very important. And and I think, you know, he's he's got people's attention. And anytime we can get, you know, a lot of people's attention on these topics that we all care so deeply about. And if it helps move the needle on health in this country, man, like giant, huge round of applause to him for doing that.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with so much of that, Julia. And uh, Alex, what were what were your major takeaways on the book?

Um, I think I think Juliet's hit hit pretty much the I I had the same, I have the same reaction. Um if your doctor, you know, your primary care physician, whatever whatever doctors you're working with, um buys into medicine 3.0, um, then I think the book has a lot of relevance. If if they're in a different world, a different model they're operating on, they have 10 minutes to to give you the, you know, to give you a prescription, to give you their diagnosis, to give you their feedback, um, then I don't think much of what's in Outlive is gonna is gonna get to the patient. Um you know, I think there's there's personal responsibility, and you know, how much personal responsibility are people gonna take for their um for their overall health? Um, you know, we have a obesity and overweight population that's about 70%. So, you know, there's a big question in my mind about you know who who's gonna take personal responsibility. Is it is it the 20% who are going to gyms and going to studios and and you know buying Pelotons? Um is so so is he basically preaching to the choir? You know, it's just it's just the same people who are gonna get healthier because they're paying attention to what he's writing. Um that's my my my concern. Um so there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of work to be done, but I give him huge credit for mainstreaming uh longevity science. I mean, I I have people who uh who ask me, you know, do I listen to the Peter Atia podcast? Do I did I read his book? Did I see his, you know, his uh his comment on this or that, um, who've never asked me anything about fitness or longevity before. So he's he's definitely the godfather of the uh and the thought leader in the space. Um and uh I know he's trying to, you know, he's got a he's got his clinical practice that costs probably a quarter million a year, but he's trying to democratize to use a buzzword, um, through the book, through uh he's got this program, I think it's called Early, or um, that he that he's offered to to podcast subscribers uh that gives you uh more of a curriculum than is in Outlive. Um but it is price, it's still pricey, it's still thousands of dollars a year. Um and uh uh so I think I think he's he's definitely onto something and uh and improving the uh the you know focus on health of a lot of people. So kudos for that.

Yeah, that I I think we all agree on most of that stuff too, Alex. And it's um, you know, when I look at as I was churning my way through this book, right? It was not uneasy, I was really forcing myself to get through this thing in Miami of college. Um, but I the same kind of questions. I think overall, like this is good for the fitness industry, right? Especially when he puts the importance of exercise up there. Like this, if and to get like when you look at the trend of like most consumers being hungry for information about health, right? The huramens and the the ready state and you know, all these places where people can go and educate themselves, that's a really good trend. And I think an educated consumer is a good consumer. And some of the podcasts I listened to that did reviews of it were practitioners, you know, in the medical field, and they were thrilled. Like they were just so excited their patients are coming in and talking about this book. It helps them with the work they're doing, right, from that angle. So hopefully, to your point, Julia, is like this starts to disseminate a little bit more. And I really like too just how he he put a common language behind it, like the Web 3.0 and the four horsemen and um you know some of the other things, the centurion decathlon. I thought that was really cool, right? Like that specifically was really cool to me because you're putting purpose behind the work. It's like, okay, I actually have a goal. I'm not just exercise and be healthier, but you know, I want to be a hundred, I want to be able to ski and pick up grandkids and all of those things. So I thought that was a really nice uh, you can tell he he put some thought into it. One of the things I was kind of bummed about is he didn't get into the supplementation of pharmacology about it. Like, you know, I'm sure you go to a clinic like that or Dr. Florence's, you know, Dr. Florence Comite or one of these other people who are, you know, six figures plus every year to go into these. Like, I'm sure there's a little bit of peptides, there's a little bit of HRT, right? You're getting some other things that maybe just aren't, you know, fruits and vegetables. Um and uh, you know, I it's so that was one of the things too. And I I started jotting down like if I was gonna follow the plan, right? It was like, okay, four hours of zone two uh per week, you know, three to four sessions of strength training, um, plus like DNS and like all these things. I'm like, when do you actually have time to do the things that you want to you want to do? So uh it's it's comprehensive, it's an amazing piece of work. I think we're gonna be talking about it for years. Um, so overall, I think we all agree, like great job, you know, could be more accessible, but hopefully it's a starting point and we can all get there.

Yeah, and I think that whoever, I can't remember which one of you made that, but just making all of this a common language and you know, and just, you know, I do think democratizing it in a way that people are talking about it. And, you know, I I agree with you, Alex. There's been more people who've approached me about some topics that they've never discussed with me ever, even though they know that I'm in the space, you know, sleep, weightlifting, um, you know, just just some of the high-level topics. And so, you know, to the extent that that he is reaching those people and they are rethinking some of their ideas about what it means to be healthy and fit and actually really considering their longevity is extremely important.

Here's a question I have for you guys, which I think is, you know, um really uh actionable for industry. But do you think longevity is something that our industry can harness and, you know, A, make an impact, make some money, um, and kind of extend their reach into, you know, the the rest of the 80% of the people who are engaged in fitness and health routines? Like, how how do you think this can be harnessed by our industry in particular as a movement?

I mean, from a business perspective, I think in the short term, it's gonna have to continue to be this very high-end concierge level stuff. Um, but I think that that happens in many industries, right? When when we're innovating and doing new things, I think it often starts with the, you know, it's it's very expensive and inaccessible to a lot of people. And then hopefully over time changes and becomes more and more accessible, you know, like getting a yearly MRI or access to all these supplements or blood panels. I mean, hopefully it becomes ubiquitous enough that it becomes accessible to most people. I mean, that's my hope. But I do think in the short term, you know, I see in my own area more and more concierge medicine practices popping up, more access to scans and blood panels. And, you know, I mean, Kelly and I have, you know, we we were like some of the early people in CrossFit to have our, you know, have these early blood panels where you'd go get an extra blood panel and meet with a physician online in like 2009, right? Um, and back then it was very out there, you know, getting our DNA, you know, our full DNA checked. And so I do feel like there is a business model there that people are starting to capitalize on. As I mentioned earlier, this whole idea of the digital twin um is really new. The health digital twin, I think you guys should read more about it. It's really interesting. And apparently some companies are already starting to try to figure out how to monetize this and make this a thing. Um, super interesting to me. And I I still limit my very early phases of even understanding it and understanding how people are running businesses around it. So I I think there is a huge business opportunity in this longevity space. And I do think, you know, people like Peter Atia have really set the stage for for there to be a ton of business opportunity. Um, but but again, I think in the short term it's going to be this very, you know, have versus have not kind of set role.

Yeah. And there's there's something about too how we're starting to shift the conversation. Sorry, uh I'm just shifting the conversation from fat loss, right, to longevity. That's huge for our industry because fat loss is a six-week challenge, right? People come in and out, right, in a year. They maybe they hit their goal, maybe they don't. If they don't, they get frustrated. So this is shifting it to something a little bit more concrete that we can really build on long term with clients. So I think that's to me, that's a pretty exciting thing. I would be shifting if I was still a gym owner or a practitioner, I'd be shifting all my conversation to this stuff, right? Um having that, you know, uh Centurion decathling type conversation up front and setting the table for a longtime partnership with my clients that I think you know is what longevity necessitates, right? Sorry, Alex, I cut you off. What were you thinking?

Yeah, yeah. No, I I I agree completely with that. It's um what what is the motivation that people uh need to stick with a program, an exercise program? And if if you tie it to longevity, I totally agree with what you just said. It's it's a lifetime practice. Um it's a lifelong practice. And I'm starting to see uh more startups talking about programs, you know, boutiques, studios that um that focus on on promoting longevity-related uh you know uh programs. Are they uh is that marketing? Is that just a buzzword, trying to leverage it? There's some of that, but I think it's also um that you know, customers, clients, um, you know, they they understand that uh longevity is and health span is somewhat controllable. I think that's that's the that's starting to get into the mainstream mindset. Um it's not all genetics, right? We used to people used to say, oh, what's the point of exercising? You know, the most important decision is you know how you pick your parents. Um right. But but um but I think that mindset is changing. So to me, it's a tide that's rising, um, that's gonna lift a lot of boats in fitness. Um and uh um, you know, and I also think, you know, on the flip side, there's gonna be some some BS and some smoke and mirrors and some you know businesses that that talk about longevity um in a way that that is is totally unrelated to what you know Peter Atia's talking about. Um and it will probably be successful because people you know want quick quick results and instant gratification and they don't want to be you know working for for years to um you know to get that marginal gain at the end of their life. They they they they want you know uh the fountain of youth, not not the not to put in the the time. Um I think there's both sides.

You know what I was gonna say? What I was gonna add to that, Alex, is I think um I've heard this phrase, which I think is exactly what you're talking about. I think for most of our lives, people have subscribed or been told to subscribe to this long, slow, rot theory of aging, you know, just this idea that it doesn't really matter. You're on this downward trend. And I do think this, you know, Atia's book and a lot of other books, and you know, Huberman and I mean there's a lot of voices out there that I think really are changing the sort of perception and dialogue around this. And I think maybe that is the most important thing of all, right? Is exactly what you said is that people are realizing that there are a lot of levers that they can push to feel better now and to make sure they age well and maybe stave off some disease or at least be able to survive any disease they do get. And I think that, you know, I think you you may have just summarized what is the most important part about all of this work is is just that change in sort of collective mindset on what's possible.

Yeah, awesome. Well, I think that's a good place to leave it, you guys. This was uh believe it or not, it's been recording for over an hour. So easy with you guys. Uh but uh yeah, it's it's awesome. Any um any updates in your guys' lives or anything that you want to tell the audience about and anything new at the ready stage, Juliet?

Jeez, I mean, we're just you know moving into the holidays and chugging along here. So yeah, nothing, nothing really interesting or exciting, just doing the basics.

Awesome. Yeah, the fundamentals, right? Alex, you're still enjoying retirement, I presume.

Yeah, can you call it retirement? I don't consider myself retired, Eric. I'm uh although some money, but um, yeah, I'm selective in terms of how I apply my time and um and I'm uh I'm working on some new some new um uh skills. I've d I I decided to become a mountain biker over the past uh six months.

Yes.

I was a road I was a road biker and and am a road biker, but but um so yeah, I'm learning uh in the in the on the mellower uh trails of Jackson uh how to uh how to ride a mountain biking. And it's it's been it's been great.

I can't wait to bike with you, Alex. I'm a late mountain biker, I'm a late learner as well.

Adult onset mountain biking. Yes, we call it. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I you guys, it's uh it's so much fun doing this with you guys. I've learned not to go out with people who are excellent mountain bikers because I I pushed myself to the point where it's it's uh a little risk, a little too risky at my age. Um, but no, I would love that. I would love that, Juliet. Awesome.

Well, you guys, thank you so much for doing this. It's it's a lot of fun. Um, you know, like I said, well received from the audience last time. And I think it's something that uh is just really needed in the industry to kind of talk about these things and take a prolonged conversation, not just uh you know, a one one-click article. Um, so that being said, Juliet, Alex, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll uh we'll see you next time.

Thank you so much, Eric.

Juliet. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This is your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Minute. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it, iTunes, Spotify, Castbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. We want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me, simply go to the futureoffitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone, and this is the future of fitness. Have a great day.