Jim Crowell - Crafting A Lucrative Client Experience

Hey everybody, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness industry podcast for over three years and running. I am your host, Eric Malzone, and I have the absolute pleasure of talking to entrepreneurs, innovators, and cutting-edge technology experts within the extremely fast-paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. Please stop by futurefitness.co to subscribe and learn more. InsightTracker was founded in 2009 by leading scientists in aging, genetics, and biometrics. Using their patented algorithm, InsightTracker analyzes your body's data to provide you with a clear picture of what's going on inside you while offering highly personalized, science-backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes. Okay, time for straight talk. It's time that each single one of us takes responsibility for our own health. Personally, given the results of my Insight Tracker DNA and blood tests, I now have a clear and simple game plan to lower my cholesterol and stave off my family's genetic history of heart disease. The best part is that the plan doesn't include any kind of pharmaceuticals, just personalized nutrition and natural supplementation. Possibly my favorite feature of Insight Tracker is the inner age score, a singular metric that shows me how my biological age compares to my chronological age. They just gamify longevity. It's crazy cool. For a limited time, you can get 25% off the entire Insight Tracker store. Just go to InsightTracker.com forward slash future. But wait, there is more. If you're a coach, trainer, registered dietitian, or any other health and wellness practitioner, you can now leverage Inside Tracker services to help your clients perform better than they ever have. And you can offer them discounts while you earn revenue. InsightTracker Pro is your gateway to offering your clients InsightTracker, a science-backed, ultra-personalized performance platform trusted by elite athletes and top coaches. Just go to InsightTracker.com forward slash future to get more information and enjoy deep, deep discounts. That is insight tracker.com forward slash future.

It's always good chatting, Eric. I always enjoy it. Whatever the context, you know, we kind of have a lot of conversations in different contexts nowadays, so this is fun.

Yeah, yeah. We are just discussing whether it was a bison or a buffalo uh on the painting behind me. And uh I'm clearly not a big I actually really don't know. Uh I just always thought it was a bison. Anyway, um, Jim, man, I I love having you on here because you know, uh you are really deeply entrenched in the fitness industry in ways that few people I know are. And if people either know you already or they probably will come across you eventually within the industry, and you have really good perspective. And most of all, you know, I I respect your work ethic because while a lot of people are out talking and uh you know, talking the talk, you're actually putting your head down, getting the work done, working with companies, growing um and doing all kinds of aspects. And I I think you know, you've been on the show a couple times, you've you've given us some really good recaps on the industry and what's going on. But maybe if you could let's start here. How would you currently explain your role within the fitness, health, and wellness industry?

Uh maybe it just looks like my head's down, or maybe I'm really bad at social media. I don't, I don't know. But um so, and and you know, when this comes out, this will probably be just being released. So I'm actually launching a company called the Sage House. Um, two good friends of mine, Jenna Randolph and Jason Crow, are coming in with me. And it is really kind of a two-headed monster. One side is consulting and advising, and the other side is investing, and and we are entirely focused on fitness and wellness. And so I would say at my heart of hearts, I'm I'm a teacher more than anything if I'm being as honest with myself as I can be. And so I love the idea of helping fitness and wellness companies grow because I love what they're trying to do with people. And at the same time, they need a lot of help. And so if I were to only invest and then spend the amount of time that I'm spending with the companies now, you know, it just wouldn't work, right? So we needed to have a really elegant way of helping companies where they were. And so we've had figured out a you know pretty interesting model to be able to go into companies and we're pretty typically between like a pre-seed and a series A. So not completely brand new and also not you know IPO' companies. Um, and and we really go in and we help them grow, particularly on the revenue and the strategic side. And so, you know, it's been really fun to think this through. Uh, frankly, I think if COVID wouldn't have happened, I I probably wouldn't have had, in my opinion, the the amount of time that I needed to just define it. I mean, it's um it sounds simple on paper, but there's a lot behind it, or at least I hope there's a lot behind it. And so we're just gonna, you know, we've got we're we keep a fairly small roster of of clients and investments. That's by design, and and we really want to help each and every one of them.

Yeah. It's great, man. I mean, it suits your skill sets really well. And I'm curious, you know, obviously you pick the the fitness, health, and wellness verticals because you know it, right? Um but would you say and you mentioned that people need a lot of help. And they do, I I agree. I think in this industry, you know, this is the industry I spent the last 15 years in. But do you think disproportionately, do you think there's more business and consulting needs within these verticals than other ones?

I I definitely look at you know, there's kind of categories, at least how I see them. There's the there's business coaching, there's executive coaching, there's mentoring, there's consulting. Um, and then when you get into the investing side, you know, there might be true advising. And so I think it's important to sort of define what we're talking about here. So, you know, I I'm not through the Sagehouse, we're not really going into single location gyms, we're not going to individual coaches, we're we're going to companies that are um intending to scale fairly dramatically, and we're helping those companies get product market fit, get traction, help them on the investment side. Um, and so when I say that they need help, we are also trying to pick the best people in the industry to jump in with. So it's not that they are necessarily outright struggling, but this is a resource question at the end of the day, right? So if we can help them with better unit economics up front, and then as they're growing their team, we just kind of get out of the picture. That's actually a beautiful scenario for us. Um, I do think that the fitness industry is still the wild west. It's the talent pool is getting really good. Um, and I often I may have said this to you at one point, but I sort of liken fitness and wellness to what Wall Street was maybe back in mid to late 90s, where you know, I used to I used to be a trader, right? So the story used to go that on the New York Mercantile Exchange, you know, they would go hire the hot dog cart guy because he was the most aggressive and could get the job done. And then all of a sudden, one year, all of a sudden, MIT and Stanford kids start showing up with quant backgrounds, you know, to kind of take over that background or to take over the industry. Um, it's really interesting now. You're starting to see a lot more Ivy League come into the industry. You're starting to see a lot more on paper, really, really high-level folks come into the industry because I think they sense that it's going to grow pretty significantly in the next five, 10, 15 years. So there is a bit of a gold rush. And what we have found, at least, you know, Jenna Jason and I, what we found is that founders they're lacking really good resources that understand the industry deeply. Um, and so it's one thing to understand maybe how to raise money, it's another thing entirely to think through very specifically what a user experience should look like to help people achieve a fitness or a wellness goal. You know, you and I are talking about it before we started the call, but fitness is still very emotional, even if it's connected fitness or you know, algorithmic-based gamification or whatever. Like it is based on our emotion. And if you don't take into account what your audience is feeling as they're using your product or service, it's it's just not gonna work. Um, and that that's kind of where we're really trying to help folks, you know, um as they're getting into that really big part of their scale.

It it's it's interesting when we started this conversation. You asked me, well, what questions do I get asked all the time, right? And uh you know, there it's it's the usual roundabout. Like, you know, well, what is uh what is the future of connected fitness now that gyms are uh you know reopening and and from all the reports I hear, they're they're bursting at the seams, right? People are coming back, it's great. Um the in-in-person experience didn't go anywhere. Uh I get asked, you know, how how do coaches and personal trainers and independent gyms keep up with technology, uh, all these things. And I'm like, well, I always come back to principles like we had discussed. And and the three that always seem to stand out to me is like, well, if you focus on I think accountability is really huge for for humans, uh, community is really uh important and and then most of all experience. Like those three things. If you can and I know those are big words, right, that can be meant that can be interpreted in so many different ways, but it helps simplify the thought process, and then you can learn to apply like okay, well, maybe technology does have a place in my independent gym, my boutique, but it's got to be the right piece of technology that aligns with those three things. And that that's the type of way that I want people thinking. And when you're going through and you're consulting through this and you're trying to help people create an experience, what are some of the principles and tenets that you you discuss?

One is it's highly dependent on who you're trying to work with. So I see a lot of companies come into this space believing that they work with both a coach or a trainer or a physical therapist or whoever, as well as with the end consumer. And it's not that they can't, it's that it really is two business units underneath one umbrella. And depending on the trade, or excuse me, depending on the resources, you may or may not be able to effectively work with both. But I've seen a lot of companies have significant focus creep trying to work with both sides of that audience, and they need very different things. I mean, very different things. So if we look at a traditional coach, I am convinced that if you are delivering a program, you want to save time and make more money. Full stop. And that's not that's not to say that they don't want to deliver a great experience. The problem that they have is that they are not scalable. So it always comes down to well, uh, how do I save time and make more money? So technology for them needs to look very different than technology for an end consumer who wants to feel good, who wants to make progress, who probably wants to spend more time experiencing that fitness game or program or whatever. The coach is very different. And so when I see these companies come in, we have to get to who is your real customer, who's your real priority. And until you can serve that person, you're going to be spinning your wheels. Um, and by the way, I've seen that in connected fitness, I've seen that in in coaching type services, I've seen it in um like communication platforms. It's it's a hard question to ask, and it's a harder question to stay focused with. So that's a huge principle. Another principle is I'll go back to what I said a minute ago, is that fitness is emotional, and you have to take that into account because it's going to be less logical. So it's like I I see this very sort of barrier in the middle. One side of it recognizes that if you put somebody in less clothing, you sell more and they're good with it, and you have this other side who just seems to bitch about it all the time. Right? Like it's like, oh, well, how can they be a good coach? And I'm lucky enough to get to have the perspective because I've seen all you know different sides of this. I want whatever somebody's going to be the most consistent in executing. So I don't care what somebody wants to look at. If they move around and if they do some resistance training, I'm pretty good with that. End of the day. Because we don't need to overcomplicate what somebody actually needs to do to be healthy, you know, all things equal, of course. You know, so I think that sometimes people can overcomplicate that you know, that humans are just big, dumb animals. Like you and I are just dumb animals, right? At the end of the day. And we need to be given something that we are inherently interested in doing consistently. Now, don't get me wrong, marketing and user experience, all of that plays into if I'm consistently interested in it. But there's a lot of overthinking right now, and I actually believe that some of the technology goes way over the heads of what typical consumers actually need.

People age at different speeds, and the date on your license may not represent your inner biological age at all. If you're looking for ways to extend your health span and slow down the aging process, the keys to health and longevity run in your blood. That's why InsightTracker provides you with a personalized plan to boost your metabolism, reduce stress, improve sleep, and optimize your health for the long haul. Created by leading scientists in aging, genetics, and biometrics, InsightTracker analyzes your blood, DNA, and fitness tracking data to identify where you're optimized, and more importantly, where you're not. You'll get a daily action plan with personalized guidance on the right exercise, nutrition, and supplementation for your body. Add inner age 2.0 to any plan for a definitive calculation of your true biological age to see how you're aging from the inside out. I was proud to find out I'm a few years younger than I thought I was. For a limited time, you can get 20% off the entire Inside Tracker store. Just go to InsideTracker.com forward slash future to check it out, learn more, and get your own. It's insight tracker.com forward slash future. On to the show. Yeah, I think on my Facebook page, which I haven't actually checked in a long time, I think it says uh it's a Joe Rogan quote, like at the end of the day, we're just walking talking monkeys flying around on an organic spaceship. Like that's it, right? Now, me, I'm special personally. Of course. Right? Uh but everyone else, that's that's everyone else. Um so maybe let's walk through this anecdotally. Like, you know, when you've you don't have to name any names of companies unless you want to, of course, but you know, what are some of the companies that you see make some transformations when they start to focus on the right things? And how does that how does that exercise or that thought or process uh hit the bottom line eventually?

Um I won't name names because I want to kind of talk about goods and bads and you know, I just think it's probably more appropriate that way. Sure. But what leads, at least in my opinion, to the most positive outcomes are when companies figure out, let's just use the word North Star, you know, like what are they really intending to do with the business and their customers and what determines success? So, you know, if if a company is trying to deliver a fitness outcome, they need to factor that into what they're tracking on an ongoing basis. Is revenue important? Of course. Is cash flow important? Of course. But how many people did this work out over the last 365 days? Was that more than the last 365 days? And obviously, I'm just picking a random example, but I see I see some companies have no strategy, I see some companies only focusing in on business KPIs, which of course are important, but it sort of loses the cultural component, which starts to fracture that emotionality that fitness is, and and it loses the culture of many internal companies if and when that is broken. So you have to have a North Star that connects to the betterment of the people that you're working with, at least in my opinion. Um, once you have that North Star, the next, and it's just as important, if not more important, frankly, is a lot of companies do a lot of work, but they don't improve the work that they're doing systematically. You know, so some might call that before action, after action review type stuff. And don't get me wrong, you can't do that with every bit of daily work. But the companies that I see starting here, wherever here is, and saying, for the next six weeks, I'm gonna focus on this thing, and then I'm gonna check how I did, I'm gonna check what worked, I'm gonna walk through a very systematic way of understanding how it went, and I'm gonna deploy the next version of it. All of those iterations and milestones should be leading to this thing called the North Star. Right? But if you don't do that consistently, you constantly just go back to step zero. You know, so I've I've I've used this analogy, or you know, I've used this example basically in every job I've ever had, but I just it just crystallizes more with each year that I grow. If you don't have both, you don't have a why and a how. And if you don't have those two things, how in the world are you supposed to manage people? How in the world are you supposed to market to a group of people about what you do? It just it can't make sense. So those types of companies to me are unfortunately on a pathway to some very challenging times at some point. Um, it doesn't mean that they have a bad product, it doesn't mean that they have a bad leadership team, it just means that they will struggle when something changes in the market. You know, so for example, look at connected fitness was crushing it, and then all of a sudden gym started opening up and it's like, whoa, what just happened there? You know, and it's it constantly has to be evaluated. The way with which people do business constantly has to be evaluated, and I think that's not necessarily done in practice very effectively.

So I want to get to the emotionality of fitness, and I I agree. I mean, I mean personally, like I work out because uh at the end of the day, I'm a better person for it. Like I just am, you know, do I want to stay fit? Do I want to stay active? Yeah, I'm incredibly active. Like I love, I want the longevity of all the active activities that I have. At the end of the day, I'm just a more calm, peaceful, happier person when I'm working out, right? That's me, and that's my emotional set, right? But when you look at like go ahead.

So just just to show full transparency, I for my entire life have either worked out to achieve a fitness or sport goal, or I've done it because it was my activity for fun. So, as an example, when you know I competed at the CrossFit Games in 2015, I walked off the field and it took me almost five years to be interested to go to the gym. I I went because I was like, oh, I I guess I better go, right? Because I'm I'm one of these healthy guys, right? It's part of my identity, which gets to the emotionality of it, right? But no joke, five years it took me to to find a different rhythm as it related to fitness. Um everybody is very different, and that's why the one size fits all, like the the platform of all fitness platforms, I think, is a very unlikely play because the emotionality of different subsets of people is so different that that helping all of them it frankly to me is laughable. Now, you could say, well, if there's a true platform where like all the different creators can get on, okay, cool. But um but delivering a specific experience is not going to hit all those subsets of people. Yeah, and today, right, to today, I love fitness again today, but you know what determines my fitness routine right now? The seasons, consistency and proximity to which coffee shop I'm in doing work that day. That's right. You two love coffee shops, totally. But I mean, and I'm a weirdo, right? So I'm a weird dude. So, you know, it is what it is, but I in like you know, I'm a I'm about to turn 39 and I've Feel more connected to the normal fitness person than I've ever felt before. And I think a big reason is because I actually am beginning to understand what not wanting to do fitness as a top priority is. It's not my top priority at all.

It's a fascinating thing. And I think, you know, this is one of the observations I've had over the last year and had a lot of conversations, especially with the technology aspect of what people are calling the fitness metaverse and and all that tech, right? Is that I I do feel at this point in my life too that like I'm like you, I've I've always had structure around my fitness, right? External structure, whether it be sports or training or owning a gym, I had to do it. Just had to get in. It was a task that needed to happen that day. And now I look at it differently is is you know, I think part of the end game with technology can be, which is also a double-edged sword and a huge ex existential question. But you know, it doesn't feel like fitness sometimes. Like if you get on a VR headset and you're like hitting things with lightsabers, right? Or you're moving around, or you know, just I guess dance dance revolution from whatever a decade ago was kind of the first version, right, of of this gamification, it doesn't feel like fitness. And I think that's one of the huge aspects too, and the emotional aspect of it, you know, which is another characteristic, is that getting people to do something that doesn't feel like it's another task that needs to get done, and then that makes it when you look at tasks, you prioritize your tasks, right? What's most important. And fitness will s easily slip down so quickly. And I think that's that's a that's the human behavior part of it that we're we would seem to miss sometimes.

I might argue that a lot of companies aren't thinking about that specifically at all. So a lot of companies have a product that they really like and they think is going to help people and they don't know. You know, and again, it's a trade-off question, so I'm not I'm not faulting them for this, but you know, there's no focus group when you know when you're getting angel money, or typically there's no you know, focus group. You just have an idea that you think's gonna work. But but how far do you take that idea before you ask the questions? And and interestingly enough, right, there are plenty of companies that don't ask the question. They just think that their idea works. But the what's so fascinating too is that one one of the things that I look for in founders are great salespeople because they constantly have to sell, whether it's selling the idea, selling the team, selling to investors, right? They have to be able to engage somebody, build rapport, define and explain an idea, listen, you know, play off of how the other person is. Um, but when it comes to product, if you don't take into account that human beings don't wake up the same way every day, you can see how people can lose interest so quickly and then never find it again. And what's so fascinating, I think, is that when you start to look at experiences, you and I, because we've been in the coaching game for so long, we just say, Oh, well, you just need time. You need to build a relationship, you need to help them realize where this is important to them. Ain't got time for that when it comes to like a $19 a month subscription service. And of course, people are gonna say, oh, well, of course we take that amount of time, we help people realize this and that and that and this, but that's really hard. It's doable, but it's really hard. And so that's kind of where I go back to what's the real North Star. There are lots of fitness companies that in reality are just trying to help people be happier. I love that if you know that that's what you're doing. I love that because you can start to build experiences to help people feel happier. There's a lot of other companies that have great products for high-end athletes, but they make no sense for a typical fitness consumer. And so, who are you going after? What is it that you are really trying to make them feel? Because think about it, some people feel amazing if they lose 20 pounds, other people can only think about needing to lose 100 more. Like, imagine the difference in that emotion. That's so different. And so you have to think about where is this person? What is it that I'm trying to help them do? And everything about the product and the brand, again, until you reach significant scale, right? But everything about the product and the brand has to help them understand where they are and what they can do to go to the next level-ish. I'm not talking about traditional gamification, even though certainly that can be a great feedback loop. I'm just saying not enough people ask the question. Like, hey, you just lost 20 pounds. How do you feel about it? Right. It's fascinating to me. And of course, it's easy for me to say, right? Like, there's a million other things that these founders have to do. It's very, very hard. But if you don't ask that question, you can understand why people don't find product market fit.

To go back to your point earlier, I just wanted to really funny. I think you'll find it funny. I was at a uh entrepreneur event a couple weeks ago, and someone said, entrepreneur is just a funny French word for salesperson.

Totally. Nailed it. Nailed it. Yeah. Uh it's really funny.

It's so So can I go down an interesting rabbit hole for a minute? Um we have to remember that the companies that you and I are kind of talking about in this moment right now are potential, you know, venture capital VC-based companies that are trying to scale pretty dramatically. That is clearly a game. Clearly. Now, it's an important game and it's clear, it's a very financial game, but you have to remember that there are systems around how this game is played. So if you can't tell a big vision story, VCs won't even show up because they need to look at companies that might be able to return 30x, 50x, 100x. If you're like, hey, I think that in 15 years I'm gonna have a really, really solid business and we're gonna do a million in profit, all the VCs walk out of the room. That's not what they're there to invest in, right? So when we go to the sales conversation, if you're truly trying to get VC backed, you have to be able to sell. Certainly there is the every once in a while, I'm gonna call it a unicorn not to be a billion dollar, but just to be in the same vein, right? There's the unicorn product that is so gnarly good that a poor, a, a poorly skilled salesperson founder can get it funded. But that's hard. You know, so it's often the founders that have relationships and are really good at pitching lots of different types of VCs. Keep in mind that would have to happen after angels and blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, but it's also the types of people who can continuously iterate and understand what part of the game they're in. Because the pitch to get your seed round is different than the pitch to get your Series A. So founders have to do this unbelievable evolution as they're growing up, and that's really hard. You know, so you hear people talk about it's hard to go from five to ten million in revenue. Sure. It's very hard. But to get a company funded at each of those levels is also extremely hard. And a buddy of mine, Greg Head, used to be with InfusionSoft and Keep, and now he's he's he's great on LinkedIn, by the way. If you've ever go follow him on LinkedIn. Um, but you know, he's a he's an advisor and invest in in SaaS companies, and he very much wants founders to be very careful about going and raising money too early because they haven't thought about what the game becomes as they raise money. And so, you know, all I'm saying in this moment is you have to know what game you're playing and you have to be able to play the game. And in this instance, it's about sales.

Yeah. And it's it's a fairly new game to the industry.

Which is for sure.

Yeah, to fitness, it's a really new game. And I I think pre-pandemic, I was uh, you know, three years ago, I guess. I was kind of ready to hang up my hat in the fitness industry. You know, just like same old shit. You know, just new day all the time, same soup, reheated, right? And then it got really interesting. Like dynamic made this really interesting, and it just changed the dynamic so quickly, accelerated this growth. And um you know, it's it's where it's at now. It's a fascinating place to be. And there's you know, investor consulting groups like yourself, you know, starting to take rise, and that makes it really interesting too. It's just uh it's a very dynamic game now. You know, I I want to uh use a little bit of the time that we have left and just talk about if you can, if you look at the market and you talk about product market fit, client experience done extremely well. Give us an example of someone who you think is is doing it exceptionally well.

Um let me I'm gonna try to pick a company that I'm not involved in because I I want to be fair.

Um you can use a company you work with too, man. There's no there's no rule. This is my podcast. We do whatever we want here.

Yeah. So let me let me give you let me give you an example here. I think I I I will n I will name one specific company. Um it's a company called Maverick. Michael Fishman is his name. And what I like about what Michael is doing is every time I talk to him, he's iterated. Now keep in mind, for context, right? Maverick is a brick and mortar gym type facility that has coaches, creators come in, they can rent the space. You know, you you've heard of other models around this, silo fit, solo 60, you know, those types of models. Um, but Michael is also allowing that space to turn into a digital component. So there's you know, there's automatic cameras that will film class, and you know, that then gets uploaded directly to the creator's account, which can then go into their system and on and on demand or live feed to customers. That's really interesting when you think about it, because a creator has never had a place to be both digital and in person before without having to own the space, rent, or buy the equipment. And I'm saying equipment not just in fitness equipment, but cameras and backdrops and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Um, and from an experience standpoint, Michael has very clearly defined that his audience are the creators. That doesn't mean that he doesn't need to have a wonderful experience for end customers, but his business is going to be won or lost in the creator. And so I think that choosing that so early, and Michael's very early. He's very, very early, but choosing that early on was extremely important because every decision after that now starts to butterfly effect his way into how that business is grown. Um, and I you could see how it could really quickly get into trouble when you start to say, well, do I need to optimize for business tools right now, or do I need to optimize for, call it what it is, better video? And easily, right? It's like, well, they both matter. It's like, but which matters more? If I can't bill a customer, I probably have a problem. And I know that that's such an easy example, Eric. And I'm not saying that video isn't important, it's really important. But if you can't make money, you can't win. That's basically you know, so and what I'm seeing right now, like the buzzword right now in the industry is omnichannel. Everybody wants to be online, in person, merchandise, you know, all of it, right? It's an awesome, awesome thing to aspire to. But can you imagine how many different rabbit holes you're gonna go down in terms of the decisions you have to make as a business owner? Especially if you're early on in your your days, you've got to decide where you're gonna go, and you've got to decide who you're gonna go there to engage, you know, your market. Because there's just too many things to do. And the company, and here's a great example. You know, a company I work with is Verb, you know, Vince Micelli. They're you know, AI-based text communication platform, they are so clear about what they do. You got in-person? No. You serve end consumers? No. Uh, do you guys do in-app? No. You guys do social channels? No. You know what I mean? Text. And and and people love it because they know exactly what they're getting, and the platform continues to be optimized for that thing. It doesn't mean Maverick's gonna win, it doesn't mean Verb's gonna win, but those are important components that give them a better chance.

I agree. Have you ever read the book A Beautiful Constraint? No.

Oh yeah, you're gonna love this one.

But it it's it's uh it it what you're talking about, it illustrates so well in storytelling, right? It's like when when you put constraints on what you're doing, whether they be capital or time or whatever it may be, it limits your options so that you have to execute on said select options really well. And you have to take a lot of thought and time into how you're executing on it. And I think that's when I hear omnichannel, and I've been in this game for a while, and I talk to a lot of people about it, I'm like, I still someone define it. Define it. Define it. Because if you can't define it well, right, then what does that mean? And I think I even had you on a podcast. Another one that gets me is brand. Well, that's you know, it's a great brand. But you and I talked about like, well, how do you define Jim, you know, a brand? And that's another buzzword that I hear all the time. Oh, you know, they got a great brand. Well, define brand.

Yeah, interestingly enough, I just I just spoke to somebody. Um, her name is Bridget Regan. She's doing this concept called market, and she's gonna beachhead with what's called fit market. It's an it's an interesting play. Um, but I was talking to her about brand, she has a big marketing background, and essentially she said your brand ultimately always must start with what is the visceral human problem that you are solving that has a huge demand. And that become, you know, that obviously with a bunch of components added to it, that starts to become your brand. Now, we could go down the rabbit hole of the brand is what somebody else believes you to be, all you know, that's wonderful. Brand archetypes, all of those things are really important to that. But you know, to go back to the emotionality of all this, if you don't actually solve a problem for people, at some point the rubber meets the road. You you it could be because client acquisition cost just gets too expensive, your churn rate can't get low enough, or uh yeah, churn low enough, and so you you can't get the unit economics to go back to the game with VCs, right? VCs want very specific unit economics. Right? So all of this ends up playing into this ecosystem of can I get funded? Can I exit? You know, all of the underlying components of experience and behavior and uh a North Star that has very clearly defined milestones to get there, all that leads to can I play the game?

Yeah, I love it. Well, this is uh I think this is a really good, I guess, bringing people back to the fundamentals, right? I mean, you and I talked about this before, is you know, we get really in this industry, I mean a lot of industries do this, but we get really stuck on buzzwords and and big concepts, but really, you know, principles and fundamentals of business don't change a whole lot. You know, it's how you define them. And the clear the more clearly you can define them and explain them to somebody, the better chances that you actually understand the concepts and you can direct them in that that path, right? Um I know we're butting up on time here, Jim. I guess one of the last things I just want to find out from you is like who who are you interested in talking to right now? Like when people are listening, what kind of conversations are you looking for? Um, how can people help you? What do you need? What challenges are you facing? All of the above.

Oh, so keep in mind, I'm you know, I'm at the beginning of this pathway, right? Brand is just launching, launching, just raised money, so I'm I'm I'm good to go and in that capacity. Um frankly, I just love this conversation. So if anybody wants to have a conversation about you know, precede the series A type, you know, shooting the gap and and growing, that's where in fitness and wellness, I guess I should clarify. That's the conversation I want to be in. You know, so if if you're looking for either a conversation or maybe some help from a group like the Sagehouse, um come come chat with me. And as I always do, Eric, here's the new email. It's just gym at the sagehouse.com. So anybody who wants to email me, go for it. I know it's gonna be about three, which is always hilarious to me. But um otherwise, from a sheer learning standpoint, um I really think that connected fitness is probably about to change a lot. So I think that the products are getting really good, and I think that the feature sets within them are getting really good. And so um I think that that's a big conversation that's gonna continue to stay big. And I know that they've had challenges in the last six to twelve months, you know, just with brick and mortar starting to come back, but the products themselves are better than ever. And I think that they're going to continue to increase or improve on customer experience in a pretty significant way.

Yeah, yeah, right on. Well, uh, I encourage people too to connect with you on LinkedIn. Um, you know, you're always putting uh thought-provoking, I presume coffee-inspired uh thoughts up on LinkedIn, which I enjoy very much. And uh yeah, man, it's it's always so great to get your perspective, and I know you're in the trenches doing it all the time, and it's uh yeah, great insights, man. Thanks again for for coming on.

All right, thanks, Eric. It's always fun to be here, man.

Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, Jim Croll. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This was your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Minutes. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it, iTunes, Spotify, Catbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. We want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more or get in touch with me, simply go to the feature of fitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone, and this is the feature of fitness. Have a great day.