Heather Dietrick - Outside Interactive: Inspire, Activate, Celebrate

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[00:03:49] people who maybe stick with this podcast, most of it's done remote. So when I get the awesome opportunity to sit down with someone, especially like yourself and talk about things that are relevant and interesting to our industry, it's super cool. So appreciate you making the time. Yeah. Thank you. I'm stoked that there's something like this in Whitefish. Yeah. It's awesome. Keep surprising, right? Yeah, exactly. But for the record, I mean, if I was going to do things over again, I probably would have moved to Bozeman. So I don't know. I mean, it's sunny down there. Yeah, it's sunny out there. You don't

[00:04:18] get the cold gray winters, but it's good to have you here. And so we're going to get a lot into media, right? Within our industry, specifically outside. You're the chief media officer at Outside Interactive. Is that, did I get that correct? That's right. Yeah. Okay. You were the CEO at the Daily Beast, right? And you and I caught up, got to know each other a little bit last week. And I know that was, you know, both media, but also a significant difference in the type of work that you do now. And we'll probably get into that. But

[00:04:46] best way to start, Heather, is just give us a little bit about your background. Like how'd you progress through, you know, school and the Daily Beast and then finally end up at Outside Interactive? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Where do I start? I guess 100 years ago when I was in college, I thought I wanted to be a journalist. And in a journalist class, I saw a Washington Post war correspondent speak about like writing in the trenches and eating out of cans of beans. And I

[00:05:14] thought, well, this is really, I don't know if I want to do this. And I just kind of changed tracks to think about being a First Amendment lawyer and eventually defending journalists for what they wrote. So when you show up on the first day of law school, it turns out that at least one of the people next to you thinks they want to be a First Amendment lawyer and the field is this big. But somehow through all this serendipity, I was lucky enough to do it eventually after I graduated. The first case I

[00:05:40] worked on when I was a baby lawyer was a First Amendment case in front of the Supreme Court. And eventually I grew to defend journalists for what they wrote. A lot of those stories are like out on the margins of sort of what a lot of people would think of as like icky or edgy speech, but that's what you defend to protect the great middle. And eventually I did that at Gawker Media, which was a collection of lifestyle brands around like passion communities. So Kotaku for video games,

[00:06:11] Jezebel for women's stuff, Deadspin for sports, Gizmodo for technology and Gawker, the name piece of the whole thing. And eventually started sort of running pieces of the company with its founder and CEO and eventually ran the company with him and shed the legal title entirely because that's what I really truly loved was running the business and trying to figure out how to build the business of

[00:06:35] media in this wildly rapidly changing landscape of sort of the dawn of mid dawn of the internet. And then eventually went to be the CEO of the Daily Beast, which I did for the past six years before arriving at Outside a year ago. Yeah, that's a dream. There's a lot to unpack there. I'm curious, you know, when you look at First Amendment law, we're just having law in general as a background. I feel like people I know who have gone through law school, a lot of them don't actually practice law anymore, but they have a

[00:07:03] I feel like they have a leg up as far as like the base knowledge of understanding how shit works. Right. So how is that? How is that law degree kind of moving to what you do now on the media side? How has it benefited you, you think? Yeah, you could use your law degree to learn like a set of rules, depending on what kind of law you practice or a way of thinking. And I guess I was more the way of thinking tracked where you just

[00:07:27] start to learn how to take a piece of information and unpack it and question it and figure out what drives it and all of those things. And for running any media business, it's highly applicable just because the landscape is rapidly changing, you know, all of your sources of traffic and audience and what you can do with content is just rapidly changing around us. And so you always need to take in your data points and question them and unpack them. And that sort of ties to

[00:07:56] to the legal degree. And First Amendment, of course, ties to my belief in speech. More speech is great for the world and and helps you think about things from different angles and understand the world better. Yeah. Random question I have to ask through the time of recording. But how do you feel about the TikTok ban with First Amendment rights? Right. It's kind of this interesting national security versus First Amendment rights versus are we getting all the information? Yeah. You're relevant to this podcast, but I just got to know since I have you here.

[00:08:25] If there was ever a losing First Amendment argument for the Supreme Court, I thought that was that was it. National security is going to trump that so hard as it often does the First Amendment. So I wasn't surprised at the at the ruling, I'll say. And then I guess we'll see what happens in the next 75 days and how long this executive order lasts. And that'll be a whole nother podcast. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do another one. So rapidly changing environment of media, I think, is an

[00:08:51] understatement, right? For sure. Yes. Yes, definitely. The vast, the sheer tsunami of content that we face every day and variations, the different controls, how to monetize, like all these different things. It's it's we talked to Robin not too long ago on Athletic News and we talked about that a lot. So now as the chief media officer at Outside, maybe give us a first an understanding of like what Outside Interactive is as an entity. I mean, it's more than just

[00:09:18] Outside Magazine, which I've loved for a very long time. Right. The Warren Miller films like there's a lot of things I think people will realize that you guys own those assets now and or that are near and dear to so many people's hearts. Right. A lot of really cool stuff. So what how do you describe it nowadays? Yeah, that was a good description. But Outside is a collection of media brands, longstanding beloved media brands in the outdoor world, like Outside Magazine, Ski, Backpacker,

[00:09:46] et cetera. And a collection of utilities like Trail Forks, Gaia. So GPS mapping apps. And we recently just reacquired what our founder Robin had started, which was MapMy, MapMy Fitness collection of those apps. And together it is or we are building the number one active lifestyle platform, which is how all of those plug in to each other. Yeah. Awesome. I like the mission. And I think the big question

[00:10:17] that I have, and I know you'll get into the inspire and activate and celebrate of what you guys do, but how do you take it seems counterintuitive, right? You take media that people kind of sit and consume, whether, you know, in a magazine or in front of a screen or whatever they're doing. How do you take that to get people outdoors, right? And then therefore kind of healthier, you know, living better lives and just all the things that come with, you know, the benefits of being outdoors maybe we can talk about as well. But how does that formula work?

[00:10:47] Yeah, we are building a platform to which all of our assets plug into. So it's a single place you can go to, as you said, get inspired to get outside, get activated or have the tools to get outside and then be able to celebrate when you do so. So we are building a destination where you can get all of our content from our various brands. And that's where inspiration comes in. You can figure

[00:11:11] out best trails or best national parks, trails within the national parks, what gear you need to get there. Then the activation part comes in, in that you can plan your routes and using our maps, you could register for outdoor races like ski, biking, running. All of that is ported into the platform. So if you go on a race or you go on a run and use trail forks, your followers will be able to see what you did. And then finally, when you go out and do something, you can celebrate it. So we

[00:11:41] provide UGC tools so you can post your photos, you know, you climbing a mountain, your routes, et cetera. You said that's a little counterintuitive because we partly rely on you being on the screen, though ultimately the company's mission is to have you put down that screen and get outside. And so we believe that we are so good at doing those things, inspiring you, activating you, facilitating you to get out there, helping you celebrate that you will put down your phone and go do something awesome.

[00:12:11] And then know that we are the place to come back to figure out your next adventure, whether it's watching your friends do something or, you know, figuring out what gear you need or getting inspired to register for a race or getting training content. All of that is sort of part of the flywheel. Where are you? We want you to spend a little time on that screen, but ultimately we want you to put it down and get outside. Yeah. And what is, you know, forgive my naivety, but what is UGC? What do

[00:12:38] you mean when you say? Ah, user generated content. So when you were talking about the rapidly changing media landscape, as a business model, we really believe in this because you could be sort of a traditional static media company that is relying on outside sources of traffic. So you're relying on people coming from Facebook and Twitter and Flipboard and also directly to your site. But

[00:13:06] all of those companies have their own strategy. And as we saw, you know, back in 2015, 2016, when Facebook had their traffic spigot on full, a lot of companies built businesses around that BuzzFeed, for example. And when Facebook turned it off, you know, that foundational pillar kind of crumbled under the corner of those businesses. And building a platform like this that really amps up engagement, has people wanting to engage and click and scroll and post their own content,

[00:13:35] really builds a moat around a media platform company that lets you be your own source of audience. It lets you start generating that flywheel and not just relying on, you know, someone passively stumbling into your post on Facebook and clicking through. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Because I mean, it's, I think everyone's trying to figure out how media is going to adjust, right? Yeah. People are kind of placing bets on what the future of content creation and media looks like. And,

[00:14:04] I mean, this is really taking a step forward and like, kind of owning more, if not all of the journey for the consumer. And maybe, what is like a typical consumer journey with outside, like, you know, from discovery to follow through, like, give us an example what that actually feels like. Yeah. We have so many different cohorts and types of people who come, so it can really vary. But you can, for instance, come in on a piece of content. So let's say you come in on a ski magazine

[00:14:32] article. And then we figure, okay, you must have some interest in skiing. You are skiing, you do ski. You might stumble into or we actively deliver to you another piece of content. Maybe that's a gear recommendation or top 10 resorts or, you know, little known backcountry spots. And as we see you consuming more of that sort of low barrier to entry content, then maybe we'll deliver you

[00:14:58] an entry point into Gaia. So GPS mapping app that includes kind of backcountry ski map layers. And then it develops from there. Seasons change, your ability level might change with your sport. And we are trying to read, you know, what is that next sport for you or make an educated guess based on the vast troves of audience data that we have that, you know, if we see you're in a certain area and you ski,

[00:15:23] you probably mountain bike. If you mountain bike, we have pink bike property for you. And then we'll start delivering you, you know, content, recommendations, et cetera. The idea being that it's sort of a symbiotic relationship, you know, you're coming to us to figure out how to move forward in the best way in your outdoor life. And we're trying to learn about you to help you do that. Yeah. Really cool. You know, I think this is a fitness and wellness industry podcast. Some people

[00:15:53] are like, well, what does outside have to do with wellness? And I think it has everything to do with wellness. And, you know, gyms and health clubs and all those things are great solutions for a lot of people who maybe don't have direct access or easy access. But, you know, when you guys look at the mission, obviously you guys are very mission driven what you're doing there, which I admire. But why do you, why are the outs being outdoors so critical to like the health and wellness of our country, of our populations, of our communities?

[00:16:21] Yeah. If you just look at this stats of like what happens to kids when their faces are in screens all day and like the very, very tiny amount of time kids and teenagers and even adults are spending outside. And then the incredible powerful effect of just like walking in the grass, walking among trees. You don't have to live in Whitefish, Montana. You can be in New York City, which is where I lived most recently before this. And how incredibly powerful it is just to get out on the sidewalk,

[00:16:49] walk over to the river. We just really believe that's great for everyone, for your mental health, your physicality, all of that. We also believe that it ties to an indoor life, which is where Matt Mike comes in. Like not everybody's going to be training outside, trail running, all of that. We know people are going to train in gyms too. And that's, that's really important because the better you feel, the more likely you are to open the door and

[00:17:13] get outside and then take in all of those benefits, even if it's just for a short time, a small walk, breathing fresh air, all the way through the very hardcore people who are also part of our audience who are doing, you know, extreme things in the back country. Yeah. So, I mean, you lived in Manhattan for how long? 15 years. 15 years. Which some say makes me a New Yorker. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know when you become a Whitefish person. That's like in 30 years. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe Morgan knows. I don't know if he's been around a while.

[00:17:43] We're all Americans. Very diplomatic. Yeah. Very nice. Uh, so, I mean, that's a significant difference. Like whenever I go to Manhattan, I think I was telling you the other night, like it's almost like a drug. Yeah. Like there's, there's so much going on, the sounds, the stimulation, everything, the food, like I can see how people can get by on four or five hours of sleep. Yeah. Right. Interesting. Uh, you know, when you get to Mountaine, I know a lot of people, it's not just here in Northwest Montana. A lot of

[00:18:09] people live in smaller towns, quieter towns, Maine or whatever. Right. They tend to, I don't know, they come across differently to me. Just a little bit slower paced, a little bit calmer. Or I don't know. Now that's just one man's opinion, but I'm curious, like, you know, having spent so much time in Manhattan and then kind of come here to a place where the outdoors is, you're surrounded, you're engulfed. Yeah. Right. Like how has your life changed? What have you noticed about the people and the populations, you know, just from, you know, N equals one,

[00:18:33] your perspective. Yeah. And, uh, certainly my interaction with the outdoors has massively ramped up, but I will say it was always just sort of in my heart and my blood. So even living in the city, which I absolutely loved, I think you have to, you have to like be the kind of person who feeds off of that energy or else you're, you're probably only going to last a short amount of time. And I was definitely a person who fed off of that energy. Uh, but I still always sought the outdoors. I

[00:18:59] belonged to a gym, but I was running on the Hudson river five days a week. Uh, eventually built a little house out in Montauk and spent probably 48 weekends a year there. Cause we just like, you know, no one's out there in the dead of winter, but we were there running the beaches and just kind of absorbing the outdoors. Now my outdoor experience is so much more intense and integrated into my everyday life. Definitely. There's a pace that's different vibe that's different. And I will say

[00:19:27] when I'm in the grocery store and whitefish almost every time someone says, where's she going so fast? Cause I'm walking so fast and I'm just walking at my normal pace, but that is something I could not kick from the city for sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't get me wrong. I love New York city. I love visiting. I love everything about it. I do have like, I feel like I go through a detox when I come back, not necessarily from anything I've consumed, just like the energy of it. It's like,

[00:19:54] yeah, everything seems so quiet here. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Different energy, but still vibrant energy just in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about the kind of the business of media. I'm, I'm a content guy, you know, I've been doing this podcast. This is now for my eighth year and podcasting is just a small yet kind of growing part of the media world. I think, you know, I was asked what inning is podcasting in on someone else's podcast. And I'm like, I think we're in the fourth inning. I think podcasting is still a long way to go, but we're

[00:20:24] kind of getting our footing. And anyway, but media as a whole, like the consumer, like gets a lot of content for free. Yeah. It's everywhere. Right. And you don't know what's true. You don't know what to trust. And like, so when you look at the future of what you guys are doing outside interactive or the whole media industry overall, like what's your first take on it? Like what's, what's your temperature gauge on it? And then how do you think it's going to evolve over the next, like you can save the next three years, like if you're going to bet your money, what do you

[00:20:53] think's going to happen? Yeah. Uh, I think content will continue to be critical, but it will also be a jumping off point into content plus. So if you look at like one of the most now successful media businesses out there, the New York times just kind of was pure media. And 15 years ago, less than like the digital upstarts thought, Oh boy, they're, they're like really behind, you know, print is dying,

[00:21:21] not moving fast enough. And now where they are today, just this vast leap in the future by being very digital first, but also investing in their core content categories heavily, and then investing in these utilities, which started out a million years ago as crosswords and kind of evolved to like cooking and parenting, you know, these like must have utilities that where people understand the value

[00:21:47] is more concrete than like a piece of content, just because the internet taught all of us for a long time that a piece of content should be free. And we've had to reteach audiences that, and then that utility play morphed into what it is today, largely gaming. And they find that if they can cross people over an audience member from content to utility or the other direction, all of those metrics that we all care about in media around engagement, retention, acquisition, sort of start really moving up and up

[00:22:16] into the right. And so I do think that is the the future where you need content will be a springboard into other products where the audience sees clear value, they definitely see the value in content. But as you said, a lot of content out there is free. And so you really need more of that. And outside has a similar asset class where they have core investment in core content. In the beginning,

[00:22:42] I mentioned our digital sites, but we also have a TV streaming platform, fast channels, linear, and some local affiliates. And then we've also invested in these utilities, which are GPS mapping apps, MapMy, etc. For us, there's so much more like obvious relation between those two things, where our content is all centered around the outdoors, and our utilities are very much centered

[00:23:08] around the outdoors, that we should be able to cross pollinate people, perhaps even easier than the Times is able to get someone from a Trump article into Wordle, and back and forth. Right. Yeah. I mean, the way you guys describe it, the inspire, the activate, celebrate, like once you explain it to me, like, I'm like, oh, that's, that sounds so simple. Right? Of course, like, that's what you do, right? You use, like, you know, inspire through content, you activate through utilities, and kind of keep them celebrating through the, you know, the user generated content,

[00:23:37] which I just learned. Who else is doing? I mean, if you're going to look at other media companies out there, you know, maybe in different verticals and things like, is anybody else you're looking at, you're like, okay, they're on to something as well? Anybody you can think off the top of your head? Yeah. I mean, companies like Strava, that they're, they're way less into the content piece, but definitely understanding that they need more than the utility. And that's driven

[00:24:04] them into the feed concept, allowing people to share, allowing others to sort of, you know, high five what they're doing. It's sort of like, the utility plus or the content plus is, I think, are the businesses that are smart about trying to find their own audience and then inspire their audience to sort of do more for them than just passively consume. It's really like participatory media. And then it starts

[00:24:31] working for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the Wordle example is really interesting. I play Wordle now. I don't know if I've aged into that demographic finally, but yeah, I've definitely played Wordle now. So that's, that's okay. Explain that to me. So that like, just for that example, that's New York Times, right? Yep. So they own content and they kind of push people in the Wordle and then that gets in a subscription. Like explain their ecosystem from, from a distance. Cause they're, I mean, they're, they're trying to navigate these waters too. It's an iconic brand,

[00:24:58] right? But I'm sure they have their struggles. Definitely. Yes. And they have deeply invested in their core content of news, but then branched out to sort of 360 degree own news lifestyle, et cetera. But even that could not sustain their business without something more. And that's where these utilities have become really powerful. Like where they started realizing, oh, people are like dug in on playing their crossword every day. You know, that was a long time ago and they will pay

[00:25:27] for that. Like they are so into this and, and that leads us to where we are today with Wordle and I forget what the other game is. They just acquired, uh, whatever it is. I'm not a gamer. I have great connections. I don't know if that's the other one. Yeah. Uh, I forget, but, uh, but then they have a product that's like, you know, a must buy for a lot of people. It's almost like addictive, et cetera. It connects a bit with their core product because it's about words and thinking and using your brain

[00:25:55] and, and all of those things. And, you know, once they get people into one, they can just start pushing the value of the other. And they have an audience member who isn't just totally cold and passive. They have someone who's warmed up and paying attention on their site or on their app, uh, and open to receiving something else. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting just seeing, you know, over my lifetime, I'll age myself at 48, but like just seeing how everything's gone from paper to

[00:26:23] internet to social media. It's just, it's bananas. Yeah. Like how much fricking content there is. And, you know, I talk a lot about podcasting and things like that and how many podcasts have been launched since then. But to be fair, very few of them actually get past like episode seven. For sure. I think, right. So there's not as much as people think out there. It's just, it's just a lot, right? Yeah. And there's been a great, like part of what you're describing is like the democratization

[00:26:48] of content creation where you probably didn't go to journalism school or, you know, probably don't have your PhD in podcasting, but you have a super successful podcast. And it's really been all these UGC, these user generated content tools that the platforms have created that have blurred the lines between professional content creators or professional journalists or people on edit teams and sort of

[00:27:12] the average person with the story to tell. And back at my days at Gawker, we could, Gawker had a very robust commenting platform and you could see people on a site like Gizmodo where we're giving technology recommendations, read a bit and jump into the comments because there were people who were writing in the comments who were as expert as anyone writing for us. And there's so much value in that if you can

[00:27:38] really unlock it, like just to be able to provide your audience with that kind of breadth of expertise, not just the person that you hired, but someone else who's been there, done that, super trusted, they've learned a lot, they have a lot to share. And a lot of audience members really value that. Yeah. Do you guys have any podcasts on your asset? Yes, we do. Which ones? Yes. It is shifting right now. It has been storytelling and sort of the outdoor world and

[00:28:08] we're just shifting it right now. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Cool. You know, for people listening to this who are within the industry, they're probably thinking like, Ooh, I want to partner with these guys, right? Like they're thinking, and you know, I think traditionally you would look at brand partnerships, like a supplement company and do affiliate deals and things like that. So maybe give insights into a couple of things, multi-part question, but like what type of brand partnerships are you guys interested in? And then how are brand partnerships evolving with this new model of media from the traditional just,

[00:28:36] we'll write, you know, a nice piece on it. We'll throw some affiliate links in there. Is that evolving as well? So yeah. Yeah, definitely evolving. Outside has really a vast trove of first party data, which is incredibly valuable for brands to tap into because we are really, we really have our thumb on the scale of that kind of collection of understanding who our audience is so that we can help them get outside

[00:29:01] better, more, et cetera. So we work with brands in that way is more sophisticated, I guess, than you'd say your average, like advertising by definitely through affiliate. But especially on our platform, brands can create accounts. And again, sort of the democratization of content creation comes in and, and they can speak to our audience, their audience, build their own audiences,

[00:29:26] tap into creators. We also have a creator network called OCN, outside creator network that brands can tap into and we can help them work with creators. And so it's much more three-dimensional than I'd say the average straight media company. Are there any specific types of brands that you guys are looking to partner with right now? Outside traditionally partnered with a lot of endemic brands. So in all of these sort of outdoor sports

[00:29:54] categories, you know, bikes and ski manufacturers, et cetera, the North faces REIs, and those are incredibly, incredibly important to us. And then I think we have turned to face sort of the non-endemic world a little more in the last 18 months to say that our audience is not just, you know, super core folks, super extreme. They're actually quite urban. They're sometimes, you know, sitting in office

[00:30:20] buildings dreaming of skiing or heli skiing. Uh, but it's not just folks like in the mountain West like us. And, uh, there's a really big story to tell in sort of the active lifestyle, health, et cetera, space, which ties to all sorts of brands in the world of auto and pharma and, you know, lifestyle, health products, anything really. Uh, people who want to tap into an audience that is

[00:30:47] high income, active, intelligent, all of that. Yeah. I mean, I was just, I just think about like the recovery brands, right? The hyper ice, you know, things like that, obviously wearables or a Garmin. Tech, yes. Even non-endemic tech, because once you have an audience that is into wearables and Garmin's and they're tech forward. And so you, they're more likely in their house to have like a very cool cutting edge TV and have that kind of tech in their car and that sort of thing. So it

[00:31:17] really like extends beyond the endemic though. Those are incredibly important. And like the connection is so, so obvious. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I want to touch on, I know maybe this is something that Robin was very passionate about when we talked to him was the GLP one thing. We didn't get a lot of time to talk about it. Oh yeah. Right. So, I mean, I have opinions on it. I've been fairly open about my thoughts that like, I don't, I think our industry got really excited

[00:31:44] about people taking GLP ones and now they're obviously going to be motivated to get into the gym. Yeah. I'm like, hold on. That's a, that's a, maybe a bridge too far for a lot of people. Like they're, they're probably getting into GLP ones because, you know, try a lot of things, but now they have something that can kind of help them get there. But say that they're now after mostly lives of not doing a whole lot in the gym, all of a sudden just gonna be like, you know, today's the day. Yeah. Today's the day. Right. I'm finally, I'll say I'm going to get in the gym.

[00:32:12] However, I do believe that a lot of people who are maybe, uh, you know, wearing too much, have too much weight, they're starting to lose it due to GLP ones. There's a lot of things that they've always wanted to do that they're dying to do. That's very recreational fun. And that comes in the form of outdoors for many people. So what are you guys, how are you guys keeping an eye on the GLP one movement and its effectiveness on, on, and for people, you know, Ozempic is kind of a

[00:32:38] typical brand name of GLP ones that people don't know. Yeah. I think, uh, Robin's theory, which I share is that it could be transformative for our space that, you know, every 10 pounds you lose or whatever it is, you were so much more likely to want to get outside and do something. And I think, and, and I understand where your skepticism comes as to whether people funnel that into gym time, because maybe the drug is getting them to where they want to be in that regard, you know, slimmer and

[00:33:07] a little healthier and all of that. But I think there are benefits to getting outside that are far beyond the fitness aspect and just the feeling of like being on a trail, being next to a river or lake or whatever. It's just some, some next level, like mental feeling. And I think this opens up like a vast vast audience to, to us, like a vast addressable audience, just because when people lose weight,

[00:33:33] they're definitely more likely to tie their sneakers and get out there. So it feels like opportunity, but we'll see. Yeah, we will see. Yeah. I don't want to get too much into it, but it's like in, in fitness and the typical fitness model, people are going to come in, they're going to the gym two, three times a week. It's going to suck. It's going to hurt. It's uncomfortable. And then it's late gratification that's put off six months outdoors. However, it's like, you can go on a hike to a lake and immediately be rewarded. Yes. With that feeling. That's exactly right. Right. For sure.

[00:34:01] Which I think is a huge delineator of like, you know, the difference between the two of you guys. Do you have any early signs as far as data that like this is actually happening or is this kind of, we're still, it's too early to tell? Probably too early to tell to tie it to those drugs. You certainly saw some spike during the pandemic of people getting more of a taste of the outdoors than many people had had in a long time, just because things shut down and, you know, everyone's

[00:34:27] cooped up and you could, you could feel people understanding that like personal value of getting outside and into open space and all of that. And I think what you see now is just like the after effects of that, even though many people have gone back to the office and repopulated cities and all of that, I think that excellent like dopamine hit of the outdoors has lingered. And now you see this trend like in travel, in hotels, like all of these hotels springing up to be close to national parks,

[00:34:56] but like with amenities so you don't have to, you know, buy all this gear and all of that. You still get your taste of it, but it's like more integrated into normal things you would do like vacations or, or your weekends. I don't know if that's, that's also an effect of, of the GLP one drugs yet, or that's still kind of the pandemic. I don't want to say hangover. That's a negative effect, but like the, the, the good, the, the maybe one good thing that came out of it. I'm trying to think of the right word for that. No, I know what you mean. It is really

[00:35:26] interesting. I've never witnessed in my lifetime, you know, over the past four years of how behavior has shifted so much. And I think especially in the younger generations, like they don't drink as much. Like a lot of food companies have shown sales are down, like, especially in the junk food sectors, things like that. So there's like a, and it seems, you know, not to get an apology, it seems like we may have the glimpse of the political will to actually improve our food and systems in our healthcare, right? Maybe. Yeah. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm hopeful.

[00:35:56] So it's like that. I mean, is that when you look at the engagement of outside, I mean, you guys have a lot of data, like who, who is engaging in the outdoors? Do you think that maybe wasn't, is there specific demographics? Is it younger demographics that are engaging more? Like, what are you guys seeing in the data? I think you see on both ends of the spectrum, younger people more than ever. I think it is tied to these trends around less drinking, more general healthfulness, you know, people sort of following like wellness, self-care,

[00:36:24] all of those things, all of that ties to people wanting to get outdoors. I think on the older end of the spectrum too, now that like, you know, 70 is the new 60 or 80 is the new 70 people are more healthful at an older age. And again, tying it to travel, like wanting to spend time in those years, discovering places that are tied to the outdoors often in a way that again, isn't that core,

[00:36:49] more curated, a little bit easier, but still feels authentic to, to getting outside. Yeah. Interesting. Out of you guys, all of your assets, like what are the, what are the most popular? Like what are the big drivers that you guys have? Is it still outside? Is outside magazine still a big thing? Is it ski magazines, award Miller? Like what, what is it that really is the deal the most? Out of the media brands outside, still the, the biggest driver of eyeballs

[00:37:17] for sure. Definitely though, the utilities as far as volume coming into the overall network, the utilities. We also have live sports licensing with Ironman, USS Ski. So part of it's like seasonal depends on, you know, what exactly is popping at that moment. But by far the largest audience is coming through MapMy, Trail Forks and Gaia on a, on a daily basis, but still a lot

[00:37:44] through the content brands too. Yeah. Led by outside. How about pickleball? Like what's. We didn't, we don't have a pickleball magazine. Okay. They exist. I mean, they're like, they're like full fledged pickleball media channels and influencers and investor groups. Like it's, yeah, it's for real. It brings up a really good strategic question of just, you know, the company's been very acquisitive in the last two and a half years. And when you think about what else,

[00:38:12] if anything, would we add, is it sort of to fill out outdoor sports that we are missing? You know, we don't have surfing, don't have fly fishing, you know, the community around fly fishing is incredibly passionate. I haven't mentioned the word community enough, but that's really what this is all about or like finding these communities and then helping them figure out how to do their activities to the best that they can. So is, is that the route that you, you keep kind of acquiring

[00:38:38] these things or do you really start leading into the platform? Because those communities, you can see them starting to come and, and, and like build there. So do we necessarily have to go after them in a, in a media buy? We definitely want to make the platform sink, a single stop for everything you need. So, you know, right now you'd have to leave to check the weather. For instance, if you were using Gaia, you want to backcountry ski, you're taking recommendations from ski magazine.

[00:39:07] We have tons of training videos for pre-ski. So you have almost everything you need, but that's something you have to leave for. So we really think about like, what do you need to be set up to get outdoors in a, in a really great way? And it might not necessarily mean that we have to, we own almost every sort of outdoor activity, but, but not every single one on the margins and maybe we don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I should ask this at the beginning,

[00:39:34] but like, what can you tell us about the size of outside interactive? Like as a company that's users, like, yeah, give us some insights. Yeah. A hundred million registered users with the acquisition of, of Matt Mai. And you mean audience wise? Yeah. Whatever, whatever you want to share. Yeah. Registration is very important to us. We just think it's really helpful for us to help you, the audience member, if we are able to know a little bit about you. So we definitely have like our thumb on the scale for having people register where we can through these different

[00:40:03] activities, through the utilities, through the streaming assets, but a hundred million makes us quite sizable, just under a million subscribers, paying subscribers. And we think there's just a big opportunity to increase both of those, both of those numbers. Yeah. Without a doubt. So one of the last questions I want to ask you here is, uh, so you went from, you know, the daily beast, which is journalism into lifestyle media. How has that changed your life professionally and personally? Right. Because

[00:40:33] news cycles are never ending. Right. And then also the ability, I guess, to think strategically long-term, right? Like how, how is that, how's that different? Yeah. Uh, news at somewhere like the daily beast is it's always on. So I guess my life is different in that I'm not just obsessively following every single thing that happens in politics and pop culture and that sort of thing. But the biggest difference is news rarely attracts like community. It attracts, it can attract a lot

[00:41:02] of shouting and a lot of passion compared to lifestyle brands where people like really in a lot of ways live and breathe these brands or their ethos, you know, even if they're not out there climbing every day, uh, definitely like think of that as part of themselves. And that's a very powerful thing to tap into from a business model perspective. Uh, just helping, helping people like get to that deep

[00:41:30] place that they want to with something they're very passionate about, which is just very different than the news where you're trying to inform them. So they understand how to think about the world, how to vote still noble in its own way. Uh, but very different for building a business. Yeah. So is your day different? Are you like, I would imagine before you were on all the time, seven days a week, right? Yes. Yes, definitely. Yeah.

[00:41:58] That is different for sure. Uh, outside knows how to take a break, even though we have a lot to get done and it's still extremely, extremely busy. Uh, we also want our employees to sort of live and breathe the, the ethos too. And so I'm, I'm rarely like on calls all day on a Sunday, uh, very rarely here, but, uh, we have a lot to do. There's just a lot to build. The platform is in

[00:42:23] its nascent stages and we have big ambitions for it. And so, uh, it's always on in that regard, but we definitely get outside. Yeah. Awesome. Uh, okay. So last question for that is, you know, as an industry, you know, uh, fitness, health, wellness, what do you need help with? Like you, you guys are in a growth trajectory, right? Do you need, if your people are going to reach out, they're going to try to, you know, get ahold of you. What do you want? Is it like partnerships? Is it talent acquisition? Are you looking for content creators? Like what's most critical for you guys right now at outside interactive?

[00:42:53] All of those things. Uh, but lots of focus on the technology. Uh, all of these properties have been acquired and like plugged in on the backend, which is amazing. So you have a single sign on through our O plus subscription. If you, if you have the top level subscription, but there's just a lot to be built. And so that means we are leaning heavily on sort of data analytics, engineering product,

[00:43:18] all of that big focus on that because a lot of the content pieces are really there in best in class and evolving as we talked about sort of the tools of media evolving, but lots of focus on sort of the tech platform piece of it. Got it. Got it. And if there's a place you want people to go, if they want to connect with you or follow you or go anywhere in particular, where would you like them to? I guess, well, first of all, on the platform, you could find me. It's Heather Dietrich. If you

[00:43:48] go to the outside platform, you register, uh, or email me hdietrich at outsideinc.com. Awesome. Yeah. Right on. Well, thank you for doing this. You know, I, I was thinking about like how all of your brands have been such a big part of my life. Like just having outside magazine on my countertop or my coffee table was like a, you know, to me it was like, I'm outdoorsy. Yeah. Right. Look, I have the magazine. I think, but I honestly like Warren Miller films. I think I was telling you

[00:44:15] since the age of 17, you know, I was going for the ski hype films and all that stuff. So it's just really cool. And it's a, I love what you guys are doing. So thank you very much for, for taking the time. This has been a lot of fun. Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Heather Dietrich. Thank you. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This is your host, Eric Malzone. And I hope you enjoyed this episode of future of fitness. If you did, I'm going to ask you to do

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