WellnessSpace Brands' Paul Lunter on Cold Plunges, Red Light Saunas, and the Business of Recovery

A lot of years of pain trying to get everybody to understand it. Built a cold dry cold plunge. The first dry cold plunge that I built was in 1992. And everybody said, What would I possibly do with this? So nobody even understood it. Then when we started going to fitness shows, people said, Why are you even here? And we had these we had these posters and everything. We said tear and repair. So you tear your muscles and then you want to repair them. And you know, there's lots of facts about massage after working out. You're gonna repair your muscles 30%, 40% faster. And uh our studies show that you could work out tomorrow and have very little uh recovery time after you use our product after a workout, but people just weren't getting it. No, we just want to work out every day. If I have free time, I'm working out, I'm not recovering. And they could not comprehend the benefits and the longevity and health and even mental uh recovery of actually, including recovery and wellness in your workout program. Nobody wants to go up and then just decline slowly for another 20 or 30 years. And the way to do that is to take care of yourself. So you do need exercise, you do need to weight train. After weight training, especially as you get older, you you heal slower.

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Great, Eric. Thank you so much for having me on uh on your show and uh just excited to you know share our story. Thank you very much.

Yeah, it's it's gonna be a unique one. You know, this uh I we talk about wellness and recovery quite often on this show, um, but having the perspective of where you've been at. So, you know, to to kind of warm people up here, um, you founded Hydro Massage, which is now uh wellness-based brands in 1989. So it's been 37 years you've been doing this, right? And your economic construction, which was really interesting, uh, into this. And we're gonna get into that, that whole backstory. But yeah, I mean, 37 years later, um, you got five product lines, 50 plus countries, 400 million sessions delivered. Uh, you got Planet Fitness, Lifetime, Gold's Gym. List goes on and on and on. You rebranded to wellness-based brands in 2023. So previously hydro massage, and then you had Cryo Lounge Plus, Relax Space, and a couple other brands as well. And you've been doing it for a while. In ATN, uh you were Athletech, you were the most innovative companies in 2025 and 26. So this isn't like a hot new startup. You've been around for some time. You've been doing this for a hot minute, you've evolved, and you've seen some pro some really interesting evolutions in the industry as well, which I'm I'm keen to dig on. So let me start with this. Okay, so you started building this in 1989, you came from construction before recovery was even a category, right? Before operators had you know words and language for it, before anyone could really even Google it. Yeah, right. You've been around long enough. This is before prior to Google. So, what was the inspiration, motivation to move forward with the original products and and what do the original products even even look for?

It is interesting that we started way before the internet when fax machine was a big deal, you know. So uh some of our employees, of course, weren't even born yet. And uh and that still uh get some they have a lot of opinions about that, I guess, about how old I am and all that.

When you look back to 1989, so let's paint the picture here. You were you're in the construction industry, right? Like what was the impetus for this?

So it was really someone was in pain and they would go in the shower several times a day, and the the you know, water pick massaging jets would make them make them feel better with the warm water, but getting wet three, four times a day was just really inconvenient. And so uh I've just kind of always I just like to do things. So I've got a very eclectic business background as well as fun background, and and so you know, me and a couple other two other guys, we we built the the first machine, had it, had it running, and um, you know, people was a hit immediately in the medical markets.

So it started in medical. Yes. Interesting. I did not know that. So maybe walk me through how did it go from medical into like mass exposure within gyms, health clubs. I'm sure you're within hotels and a lot of different things. Like, give me the landscape. How did that all how that all yeah?

Almost all markets now. So we we actually started in medical. The name of the company was actually Aquamed back then. So that was our company name and the product name initially. So uh we started with chiropractors, physical therapy, pain management, uh, orthopedic surgeons. I mean, Mayo Clinic has our products and they've traded them out, you know, a couple of times because they've had them for so long, Cleveland Clinic, a lot of hospitals. So, you know, a chiropractor with a 20 by 50 square foot office, uh they can make $250,000 a year with one of one of our products. So uh they they loved us, but uh they would there was one doctor, one facility, not growing, not really, um, you know, there wasn't really every day we'd have to start over. And so it uh we did it for a while, and we would just do more shows and you know, get go out and see more doctors. We had to do more work, but every day was you know starting completely fresh. And uh the you know, the benefits we'd get, we get we'd have people leaving messages on the recorder over the weekend saying, Hey, I I hurt myself and I'm in your town, or I'm in this town, some other town. Can you tell me where I could get a hydro massage session because it does this for me? And some of the messages were to thank you cards. They were, you know, for regular people, they're gonna go, okay, that really can't happen. But people would tell us remarkable things where they were they were getting therapy on a regular basis, and then uh, you know, two sessions on the hydro massage, they would feel better. And as long as they did it two or three times a week, they were out of pain. And I mean, some of them were would make you cry. I mean, there was a brother and sister, and they called me up and said, uh, you know, our dad was dying of cancer and he used your product for the last couple of weeks of his life, and it got him out of pain while he was dying. And we just want to thank you so much. I mean, it was such such an amazing thing for two of us to see our dad with less pain. And so I still get emotional, and that's been like 30 some years, but we've had had a lot of you know, a lot of those on a regular basis, which is incredibly rewarding when I get to do what I love, which is making things, and then you know, have people feel better to that level.

I mean, in essence, you well, you kind of created a whole category from from scratch. I mean, when you look at where it's at now, like okay, how how do you describe like you're on a I love this is one of my favorite questions? You sit down on a plane and uh you know, someone asks you, I I would imagine it's it's business class, I would hope so. Um but you don't have to answer that. And someone sits down and they're like, Paul, what do you do? And you're like, well, blah. Like what do you what do you tell them? Like, what's the category you've created? How do you how do you get someone who's maybe not from your industry to understand what you do?

I mean, separate from what I do for this industry, I just have always liked to make things. And so that's why this was a simple thing for me to just you know get right into, you know, a completely different example, but I did this with a lot of different things. I had had a piece of property, I dug a lake on it so I could ski around my house. And uh so I but I had all this grass right afterwards, so I I seeded the whole place and had so I had 40 acres of grass around my house. And uh so I went to buy a lawnmower and it was gonna be, you know, you say 40 acres of grass? Yeah, 40 acres of grass, yes, exactly. So I so I uh you know I I needed a so it went different ways, and this is this is uh you know 1985. And buying a lawnmower was a hundred and something thousand dollars, it was still gonna take me eight hours to mow the lawn. Hiring somebody was really expensive, which I'm very frugal. And so I built one, I can mow the whole place in two hours. So I just kind of see I just see a problem and I find a solution. I just have always loved to do that. I love making things, taking things apart, learning how other things are made. And so whatever it is, there's always a simple solution in my mind.

So yeah, that's fantastic. So how would you describe this category that you're in now?

Like so it is, you know, so it it's it's only unique in that everything we do is it's easy to use, it's convenient, it's therapeutic, and it's safe. So people can self-deliver it, they don't have to change clothes. But you know, ice baths, massage, hot, that's all been around for a long time. I mean, in the United States, we're we're you know, we're not leading the way in that. We're getting we're we've caught up to Europe and in other places, but you know, for thousands of years, the rest of the world has been doing these things on a regular basis. I mean, in Norway, they say they leave their kids, like newborns, out on the porch in the wintertime and it kicks their immune system in. Um, you know, we would get sued for, you know, we'd go to jail for that here, but it's it's normal practice in Europe, uh, well, in some parts of Europe. And so really just bringing what I said on the for you know our DNA of making things easier, convenient, cost effective for people, you know, getting a hands-on massage is expensive. Sometimes you don't like, you know, have other people touching you, or you don't want to talk the whole time if they don't massage where you want. You know, we're delivering something simple. You get on with your clothes, 10, 15 minutes, you get rid of that pain, you're or you get rid of some stress at work and you're back to work and you're ready to go. Cold plunge. I mean, so we're driving by the factory, going out, you know, someplace with my wife, going to some friend's house. She's can we stop? And she comes in and does the cold plunge, you know, she's in a dress, and we're going somewhere, and she'll do a couple sessions on the cold plunge, and we'll get back in the car and keep going in the direction we were going. That's awesome. That's how convenient our things are, you know. So, and so that's the whole idea is make it available to the masses instead of the few. I mean, a health club with a massage therapist or five, you still got one or two or three percent of your members that are actually getting a massage. We really bring it to, you know, everybody can get it.

It it's really interesting what you said about us being behind on recovery. So I uh coach Bob DeCano is a pretty legendary Olympic weightlifting coach. He was, you know, with the national team for our national team forever. Anyway, I was at a seminar of his 14, 15 years ago. One of the questions I asked during the seminar was like, hey, you know, as as as Americans, like, how do we stack up? Where where do you think we could be doing better? And he's without hesitation, like immediately answering is like recovery. Like you look at around the world, like we're like the United States, we're really good at training. We're really good at optimizing all that, right? But the recovery part is we're so far behind. That's been integral and so you know, in Russia and China and all these countries who have really elite training programs across the board. And I think that trickles eventually that trickles into the general population too, right? And so I I don't know, maybe the last five years, six years, I feel like this recovery thing has really taken off in in the in the West. And I'm I'm curious, like, what what do you think started that? Like, where do you think that come from? I'm sure you're happy it's here. Yeah, what's your what's your perception on that?

Yeah, definitely happy it's here. I mean, somebody said one time, one of your questions was, you know, what have we done wrong? And what we you know did wrong was uh you could either be wrong or you could be early. And we were definitely early. Yeah. So they go hand in hand almost really. Um a lot of years of pain trying to get everybody to understand it. Built a cold dry cold plunge. The first dry cold gold cold plunge that I built was in 1992. Um and everybody said, What would I possibly do with this? You know, so nobody even understood it. Then when we started going to fitness shows, people said, Why are you even here? And we had these, we had these posters and everything. We said tear and repair. So you have your tear your muscles and then you want to repair them. And you know, there's there's lots of facts about you know, massage after working out. You're gonna repair your muscles 30%, 40% faster. And uh our studies show that you could work out you know, tomorrow and have very little uh recovery time after you use our product after a workout. And uh, but people just weren't getting it. No, we just want to work out every day. You know, if I have free time, I'm working out, I'm not recovering. And they could not comprehend the benefits and the longevity and health and even mental uh recovery of actually including recovery and wellness into your in your workout program.

You know, I I feel like this focus on recovery, a lot of it has to do with like wearable data and just kind of this uh this quantified self 3.0 thing that we've been having in you know in the 2020s. Because I mean, everyone, you know, a lot of people have an aura, they have a garment, they have all these things and they can see how the recovery's going. Even in blood work, like I got my Vitality Blueprint uh, you know, uh blood work done, you know, last year, and it said basically look through the book like you're not recovering well, right? You need to focus on that. Like there's you know a lot of signs of muscles not recovering well within your system. So I feel like all this is kind of bringing to light what many people have known forever, and other countries have known for century, if not millennia, right? That this is like a really important part, and that's part of it. But I mean, do you do you agree with that? And what other factors do you think are driving this recovery?

It's you know, people talk about you know the the uh real estate crash and they think it's one thing or the other, but it was it was 30 things all coming together. So it's the same thing with this. You know, in a good way, it's the devices that you're talking about. So we're we're we're before we weren't even paying attention to our body at all, and now we're paying attention a little bit and we're noticing that we could do small changes, and it had does have an effect on things like HRV and things like that that are important. And then so we so we have that, then we have you know the Gary Brecas, Peter Diaz, and all the you know, the people that are helping us be not just one time mentioned, but on a regular basis, they they're speaking about the the benefits of longevity. And and I also feel like we are more affluent than we've ever been as well. And so when you have, you know, even though not everybody maybe on the on the podcast has disposable income, but when you do, and as you get older, you start realizing why would I use my money on anything else? I mean, so why don't why wouldn't I not want to use it to conserve myself? I mean, the P Peter Ortia way of you know living long and strong and then just dying, I think we all want to do that, right? Nobody wants to go up and then just decline slowly for another 20 or 30 years. And the way to do that is to take care of yourself. So you do need exercise, you do need a weight train. After weight training, especially as you get older, you you heal slower, right? So whether young or old, you know, healing quicker is beneficial to everything. But especially as you get older, I mean, kind of after 25, you start healing slower. So, you know, everybody needs to work out with weights. We know the benefits of that, and then follow up with recovery. So there's all the factors, you know, starting with what you said. And then I just think we're a little smarter. I mean, smoking used to be healthy, right? So um it takes us a while to kind of get around to what makes sense, but I think people are more, they understand, you know, organics. I remember laughing at those people in California, avocados, those people, like you know, we'd be making fun of them, right? You know, so what are you doing? You know, and and organic, all those people, you know, so you know, and you finally realize, no, that's actually the way it was meant to be. And then and it takes us a while to come around to those things. So I think we fall for marketing propaganda that that uh that we we were too gullible in the past.

Do you think I mean it it's hard to say, it's too early to say, but you you've seen a lot of trends and hype cycles over the last you know 37 years, especially when it comes to the fitness and wellness industry. I mean, do you think this is uh I mean I'm sure you're betting it's it's not a trend.

You think it's it's a long, it's for it's I mean some of the things like you know, uh spinning and hit and the different pieces, you know, different ones, they are they they're it's not so much even that they're a fad. They are a it's it's a piece to keep us entertained because there's a lot of ways you can exercise. And you know, we get bored. If you do the same exercise and that's all you did every day, there wouldn't be any, there wouldn't be health clubs because you could do that at home, right? So you you want to mix it up, you want to do different things, but as the new shiny thing comes along, people want to jump to that. But when it comes to your health and your life and your recovery and longevity, it's not there, that's it's separate from a spin class, you know, or or hit class or or whatever. Those are just methods to to you know to to be able to do your your uh exercise, but that's totally different than exercising. So exercising is gonna stay, right? You're gonna keep doing, we're still gonna be doing fitness forever, but it's how you deliver your fitness. Recovery is its own standalone piece. You know, as far as where it's going. So in in 1989, we also went to tanning shows. And so, you know, in my mind, it was and I I was pounding this for years, and Kevin, who's our president, always laughed at me because I just keep bringing this up. They've got they've got this advertising box, they've got a person at the front desk, they have rooms that are perfectly suited for us, and they would never they would never adopt our products. Well, they are now. So the biggest brands are changing their names to include wellness, and they're removing tanning beds, they're putting our products in. They're doing exactly what I thought they should have dirty some years ago, but but they're doing it now. And so, you know, we've got over a thousand locations that are buying our products now and changing their what they're selling to recovery. Uh the hotel market. I mean, we have both Hilton and Marriott with global contracts with them. They are they're building out wellness and recovery inside the hotels now. So long time coming. Universities, so they've you know, first there's a lot of competition. So they want to attract, they want to attract the students, and certainly the athletes that are bringing the money in, they're adding our products. We have some that have nine, 10, 11 units in them and uh you know, our relaxed space. But you know, it's a like a meditation pod with scent and and uh a lot of other features. The uh the the uh not not uh the psychiatrists there, they're saying that the students are needing less attention from them because they're able to go there and they actually get to recover mentally from their stressful day where they didn't have any place to go before. Now they do, and it doesn't take a human to do it. So um, you know, there's trends everywhere in all the different businesses. The government's ordering machines, uh they kind of have a little bit for the whole history, but now they're getting more aggressive about it because all the all the things that we all have, too much stress, too much pain, the uh even even the space program's getting them. So it's pretty much all markets the we sell to you know still hospitals and and uh mental and uh excuse me, uh chiropractic and physical therapy, those are still strong markets. So pretty much everywhere where people gather, our product is is convenient, it's cost effective. I mean, you buy at one time, there's some maintenance, but other than that, compared to employing people to do the job, uh, this is ready 24-7.

Yeah, it's great, man. And you know, kind of going back to how this whole thing started, I was at the Health and Fitness Association conference earlier this year in March. And uh, you know, one of the things I've learned as I do more of these conferences is like on the second day or the last day, I'm like, I'm gonna go hit up all the recovery, right? Like I'm just I've been on my feet all day. I'm tired, I probably drank more than I should, and like, you know, I mean, you know how it goes. Um but I I went in there and there was a couple things that were really interesting to me. And first of all, very impressive layout. Like it was uh, you guys have of it was yeah, there was a lot going on there. I was busy. I do. And kudos to your salesperson who I was talking to. He started talking to me, asking me what I did, and took my information. Here we are a few months later. We're doing this interview. So I don't know who that was, but uh, you know, kudos to him. The uh I guess when I I want to get into like out of all these products, and I really like the dry coal plunge. I think that is a very unique thing because a lot of people who try to put in coal plunges have to do all the plumbing and like there's a lot of regulation, like it's it's a lot, right? It's a lot to do that effectively. So that seems like a really elegant solution. But out of all these products, I guess I want to get into as the operator, as a health club or gym operator specifically, how do I start looking at this and making a decision of, okay, you got all these products. Number one, which ones would be interesting to my members, right? Number two, how do I approach ROI on these things? And how, if I do decide to invest uh, you know, in the in the right ones or what I think to be the right pieces of technology and equipment, how do I get engagement on them? Right. So big big question, but walk me through like as an operator, how does this whole thing start? From I'm aware of your products and services, right? So implementation and having them be a solid revenue stream.

So, you know, we we our salespeople do in a more of a consultant sale because once people call us, they're kind of already on board with wanting to buy something from us. And so really it's not just about selling more or selling the proper amount of equipment and type. And we talked about it before the before we started here that sometimes there's a bias with the owner because they like one of them more than another. Yes. Or they're they're a cold plunger, so they're like, okay, the cold plunge, we need 12 of those and only one hydro massage, you know. So uh and it's it's really not the case. It's not really about the owner, it's about the members. And uh one is we do uh we've been doing this for a long time, as as you've stated, we have uh the ability to do surveys. So we connect to all of our equipment to 85, 90 percent of what we sold over the last eight years. We in our tech support office we can see the the room temperature in the room, we can see the quality of the water, we could see the you know how what scent is being used the most on a relaxed space. We can see whatever we want to see there uh in the about the equipment and the in the facility area just from sensors. Uh, we've got a lot of sensors on all of our equipment to keep it safe and for information to come back to us uh so that we could we can help the machine uh run properly and uh understand what's going on, get feedback to see if we need to make changes and uh just make sure that running smoothly. But uh we put surveys on there and with the permission of the of the location, and we can get 50,000 surveys in a week very easily. And we can ask all the questions that that you're wondering about right now of you know, how often do I want to use this? Would I refer a friend? Why am I using it? Is this going to keep me at this club? Is there, you know, whatever whatever that they they want to know or we want to know, we can get information really fast. So uh that's helped us to design. Design the product and make product improvements. And it's helped us also to let the owner know here's what your here's what your members are saying directly about the products as they use them. And uh so that helps a lot. We've got, of course, the you know HVLPs that are very much focused on getting people to the higher tier membership and consistently across the board with all of them, they they know what they had before we got there. And then when they add our products, we can see they can see what the the new upgrade number is. And sometimes it's very significant, a 30% difference, 35% difference in the number of people that are upgrading. And then retention. So some some of our higher-end clubs, they don't charge for it, but they what they do see is a retention tool. We just had just a just a few minutes before we started, we had uh a Snap Fitness that they raised their their dues ten dollars after they added a couple of our products, and uh they they lost two members. So um just in the first month, I've got 210 members that signed up to add our product and the additional fee that comes along with it. And they lost two members by raising the price. So they're you know, that kind of thing with a small box like a snapper and anytime, that's significant money. But then when you ratchet up to the clubs with six, eight, ten thousand members, uh it means even more. So uh it's the other parts are you know, people going up to the front desk, hey, can I use the hydro massage? Hey, can I use the you know the polar wave? The front staff people know immediately what's going on about and and they know that the the members are talking about it. Other members will say, hey, what's that? And then they're you know, then from there, then you know, they're getting another person that wants to upgrade. So uh there's the referrals, the retention, the additional fees, and and then kind of just the overall awareness. We've got some locations like lifetime. Hopefully don't get mad at me for this, but they're putting 5,000 hours a year on our equipment. So they have several of each machine, and there's only 8,000 hours in a year, and they're running 5,000 hours on most of the machines a year. Kind of what kind of usage that we get. And then Pure Jam in the UK, we kind of have the same thing. So their machines are pretty much running all day long. I've got a lot of clubs where uh the usage is just incredible and through the roof, and certainly all the HVLPs are getting tremendous usage.

Uh so when you talk about upgrades like Planet, yeah. So they're I think they're $15 a month base rate now. So if you like in the black card, I think they just increased to 20 or 25. So you would get just for an example, so if you upgraded to the black card membership, you would get access most of the time to like all of the the the technology that you guys provide. Is that correct?

That is correct. Yes. As well as some other products with planet, yes.

Yeah, okay. So it's like an upgrade player. Okay. Interesting. Now uh w what what are the what are the most popular products that you guys are selling into to health clubs and gyms right now?

So the hydro massage is still the number one product, so people put more of those in than anything else. But the new products are are catching up pretty quick. So um, you know, we're getting you know 50, 60, 90 uses a day per unit on the new equipment. And uh so they haven't been out that long. So we're looking forward to uh the end of the year when we have a really nice uh measuring stick on that is that it's uh the retention with the usage is there. Um so we can certainly market that. But right now it looks like they're definitely winter. People have been asking for a sauna that you know, it's a it's a one-person sauna. There's no wood in it, so there's not any bacteria. I mean, even you know, before we made our own, I had a wood sauna at home, infrared sauna, and my wife would be like, hey, the towel's not down just right, and it's just the two of us using it. So she didn't even want my sweat, you know, on the wood. And you could just imagine, you know, 30, 50, you know, people using a you know, sauna at a at a club that are sweating on it all day long. It's it's not very sanitary or or uh uh you know, a lot of bacteria and and odors too as well. So uh we don't have any wood in ours, easy to wipe down. It's got a HEPA filter, it's got a uh it also has a charcoal filter in case there is any order odor. We have a circulation system, we have all kinds of different features on it that make it completely unique. And so um it's not just a sauna, it's a very special sauna.

Yeah. So the sauna is picking up speed. What else?

What uh where is it well the polar wave and the sauna, and then we have our cryo lounge, which is a combination of hot and cold. And so you could you get on there, it's usually a 15-minute session, it has some compression, so does the uh polar wave. I did that. I did that, yeah. So if you did a if you did a leg workout, you'd put cold on your legs, but you have warm everywhere else. So you have you don't feel cold at all. You don't even notice that the cold is there because the the warm offsets the cold. But at the end of it, you get up and for a half hour, even 45 minutes later, you can still feel the cold in your muscles. And so you're getting the benefits of cold without feeling cold, which most people like. Um, you know, so that's that's a lot more comfortable. And then there's compression in the legs, and then we have a contrast button. So halfway through you can hit contrast and everything warm becomes cold, and everything cold becomes warm. And you could, it's very subtle, but you can actually feel the blood almost changing directions when you're on there because there's such a difference between the warm and the cold. Uh so it's a pretty cool, pretty cool machine. People really like it.

And the the polar wave, is that the dry cold plunge?

It is, yeah. So we're 28 to 34 degrees with your with your clothes on again, and we have uh chambers that come over the top of you and uh over the top of your legs, and so it does your arms, your chest, your top of your legs, the back of your the whole back of your body, and then around your legs, and then compression on your legs. So uh, you know, people last anywhere from 30 seconds to the whole seven minutes, and all depends on the person. And uh, you know, the the the part about cold plunging or polar wave is that uh people kind of go, well, I could do more than Paul, you know, and so and that's really when it comes to cold, when it comes to cold, it's really not about that. It's really you once you shiver, that's what you're really looking for. So if you've built up an immunity to cold, you actually need to back off of it for a while because this the shiver that actually kind of kicks in some of the benefits. And so if you gotta if you're too used to it, then you're doing it too often or you know, you're trying too hard, I think. Yeah.

So yeah. You know, when I uh I think I first came across, I don't know if it was your device or competitors, but when I first experienced the this dry cold punching, it was like three years ago. First time I'm like, sorcery, like what is this this thing? Yeah, you know, and then I was like, well, I I don't get it because I I think at the time the price point when I looked at it was like thirty, forty thousand dollars. I'm like, who's gonna pay for that? And then I then as years went on, I started to, you know, inevitably find myself being wrong again. It's like, well, you know, if you're gonna install a coal plunge into a facility, right?

Like I was at um it's more than fifty thousand by the time you're done.

God, and and the cleaning and the maintenance, like I was at Other Ship uh when I was in New York for the Afletic event, and like, you know, beautiful. I don't know if you've been there, it's but it's gorgeous, right? I talk about all the time. It's so cool. I love to go there running. But like it's I can't imagine how much that build out would have cost. In fact, I think Robbie, the founder, may have said it on my podcast, but it's it's a lot. So then I so and then I started thinking about I'm like, okay, well, this is a really simple looking solution because it you know it can be maintained, it can be moved to like it's just not such a commitment as that. So I mean, that seems to make a lot of sense. And how does that work? Like, how does it get that cold so fast? Like, what is the mechanism in there?

So with both products, I mean, we it definitely was an RD effort uh to be able to do that. And um, you know, the cryo lounge almost is even more complicated in some ways because we're we're going back and forth between hot and cold. You could change you could change six excuse me, six different zones that you can adjust. And so you could make changes.

That's a secret. I'm gonna put I'm gonna get it, I'm gonna get it out of you.

You know, the the biggest benefit besides it's quick and it's easy, you know, people aren't walking across the floor and dripping. But in a lot of counties and and states and cities, there, you know, the the regulations are just you know they're impossible to actually uh facilitate it in a club because you're some of them you have to change the water, even some of them as much as every after every person, which is the worst case scenario. But other ones are you know, a couple times a day, you got to check the chlorine once an hour. You've got all these things that are really impossible. Then handicapped people, you've got to have a hoy lift to get them down into the into the water, and then clearly the changing area and all the other pieces. So, yeah, the cost of the unit in that case is is minimal compared to all the other things that you have to do, and then the ongoing things you have to do. Where ours is just pipe it down when you're done and the next person's ready to go.

So yeah. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. It makes and you are you guys commercial only, or do you guys do any direct-to-consumer retail?

We do some consumer, but it's mostly people that have seen it and they want it. We don't we don't pursue that market yet, at least anyway.

Yeah, yeah, interesting. So um so let's dive into the sauna. I want to dive into that that product because sauna is uh ubiquitous now, right? I mean, you can you can buy one at Costco, you can order a kit, you can uh build your own. My neighbors built their own. And I was trying to put one into my uh upstairs bathroom as or renovated, I just couldn't find the right size. But uh you know, tell me what what uh in a world that's so you know, it's so uh it's just packed.

There's availability for everything you want, right? Sure.

Yeah, yeah. So what what makes you think this one is a is a winner?

Well, you know, everything we do has a lot more than that initial DNA that I was talking about. It there's all the other things that we know are important. So the BMW, there's not any wood, so it's all composite materials that are going to be sanitary, easy to wipe down. Um we have it it looks much cooler than than a wooden sauna. And just as you said, you can go to Costco and get one. So what's why is that one, why would a wooden one be special in a in a health club when I can know I can just go buy one for, you know, you can buy them for hundreds of dollars, certainly or thousands, you know, a couple thousand at a for a wooden one. But then you've been in them before where you know if you're up high it's hot, if you're down low, it's you know, it's a different temperature. Ours has an air circulation system, so the air is actually moving around you all the time. So it's the same temperature everywhere. We have a we've got a heat map in there so we know what's going on with your day, when the club is busy, when it's not, when you close, and we shut the machine off when it's not being used. But we insulate it in a way that it'll it'll maintain 100 degrees when it's not in use for very low cost. And then we can get up to 120 in about three or four minutes. So we're kicking it in. Then with that air moving, it actually feels warmer than 120. It feels like one 130 or 140. Machine goes up to 130. So you feel you can feel those warmer temperatures if you want them, but because we're able to go up and down so quickly, the member can actually choose the temperature range and it gets there very quickly. So they're not using a lot of their session to do that. But we've got a very comfortable seat. I mean, if you've walked on a you know, a normal sauna, even on your feet, it's a little bit uncomfortable. We don't have any of that. Our seat is very comfortable. We the back of it has red light in it, but it's it's curved to your body shape. So when you lean back, you're you're cradled and you're comfortable. There's not any, again, it's just comfortable. We have red light where it needs to be. So some people hang a red light on the door and then they say it has red light. Uh, we have red light on your back, so it's 630 and 850 wavelengths. Uh, then we have it on both sides of your face. We've got it for your front of your face, your chest. So a lot of places that we're really worried about, tops of our hands, forearms, and your knees. So all the areas that you need to have that kind of therapy is right there where it needs to be. It's all safety tested through UL safety standards. The irradiance, which is the amount of power that it generates, is the amount that it needs to provide the right type of therapy. And uh, so the combination of the you know, the sauna and the red light together provides two products in one. And uh certainly as we get older, we're all looking for more collagen in our skin and and less wrinkles. And uh, so we also have a kind of a dry you off device at the end. So for the last 30 seconds, this fan comes on and it kind of like at a car wash where it sort of blows off any heavy sweats you're not dripping on the floor. So a lot of benefits there, lots of safety. We have 10 temperature sensors in it, so we know what every device is doing. We have all kinds of other mechanical safeties in case our software were ever to do anything, then the mechanical analog safeties they come into play. We have feedback on every area of the machine, not just one little spot. We have feedback devices so we know each of the six different heaters, we know what they're doing, we know what each of the red lights are doing, we know everything about all of them uh remotely. So we make sure that it's working properly and it's still it's safe and all the other features.

That's incredible. And and is this are these they they buy like gyms buy these, right? They don't lease. Okay. That's the model.

Yeah, we tried that, we tried that a couple of times, leasing them, and they don't people almost get mad at you when you start making money. Uh it's kind of funny. So we did it, we started with chiropractors in the 1991 or something, and uh we had them out there, and once we started making a thousand dollars, even though they were making 25,000 a month, uh, we were making a thousand. They they were like, you're not a doctor, why you know? And a gym owner is kind of the same thing. They they they're fine with you investing initially, but then they want to buy it, of course. So people prefer to own it rather than than lease it normally.

Yeah. I want to talk about like the the the company itself. So and and talk about whatever you feel comfortable about, you know. I'm not asking for Napoleon, but like you guys have taken on a certain amount of investment. Um, you know, we're talking about North Castle partners. So maybe walk through like the evolution of of the company itself. And if you want to give me any indicators of like how big you guys are now, I'm very curious to know that as well.

So, you know, in the in the beginning, uh you know, I had a construction company before I started this, and I had several other businesses, a very kind of eclectic business background. I did construction, I did some land development, I uh had an internet company, sold it to Paul Allen. I've grown freshwater Australian lobsters, I've done all kinds of different things. So um when this came along, it was something cool, and I started doing it and then realized it was something that could help people and really have more longevity than the other things that I was doing because it was something I was passionate about. And uh so I put a lot of the you know the funds that I did uh that I made in the other businesses into this internet business, of course, came later. But uh we were one of the earlier companies. So we had 50,000 customers in 1996 before most people had a computer on their desk almost. But uh the uh so self-funded initially, well, for the forever really, until uh 2006. And then uh I got married in 2000. We had our first child and said, you know, let me start taking some chips off the table and got some private equity. And uh so that was uh a company called Illion Partners, and then in 2016, North Castle had taken their position. And um it's been a great relationship. They're really they're they're definitely like family. You could go, I've heard all kinds of horror stories, but they're they're they're just wonderful people, period, and then great as business partners. So very happy with that. Um, you know, we've grown, we we sold machines in Italy in 1992, but recently it's just really taken off internationally. So the just like we are with wellness and recovery, they're the same kind of with HVLP and fitness. Uh the fitness club market is now catch trying to catch up to us. So they're at least five years behind in the fitness market. So uh we have taken off dramatically in the last couple of years. So we're in 50 countries. We've got you know, we sold about uh you know 30,000 machines over the last eight years uh and growing. So uh the uh you know the market potential, just as I mentioned, some of the markets continues to grow. You know, we're we've hired 60 people this year, so we're you know, we're growing pretty fast so far. We've got another probably 20 or 30 that we need to hire. And um, but uh definitely growing strong. We have stocking warehouse in the UK and one in Rotterdam. We've got employees in Europe, we've got uh tech support there, so it continues to grow.

Yeah, that's uh you know, an overnight success in 37 years. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. What do you think? Uh I mean we're talking about trends, right? And hype cycles. Like, you know, look facing forward into 2030, like what do you think are one or two of the biggest levers that operators can can look to to pull on? You know, things that are coming up that are new, any consumer demand trends that you're seeing coming. I mean, you've you've seen some cycles, right? You've seen some things. Like, what do you what what would you put your money on right now as far as where operates should be focusing? Hey friends, uh artificial intelligence is moving faster than most of us can keep up with. That's no secret. We can all feel it. Uh the pressure to keep up is very, very real. And no, I'll get to that next week is not a strategy. So I am proud to say that our presenting sponsor is perfect gym. The people building tomorrow's infrastructure for gym and healthclub operators. I have sat down and talked to thousands of leaders across the fitness industry, and one theme keeps coming up the right tech can make or break your business. Perfect Gym isn't just another management system, they are part of the Sports Alliance group that is Europe's leading fitness software company. It's now all in on the US market. So in the age of AI, being data ready isn't just a buzzword. It is critical for survival. This, my friends, is the disruption we have been waiting for. Member management, billing, scheduling, reporting, one platform, zero duct tape, single studio or multi-location franchise that scales with you, zero growing pains, and their open API affects over 50 technology and payment partners. No closed ecosystem, no getting boxed in, just better data, better decisions. Perfect GM is trusted by international fitness teams because they focus on what actually matters. That's operations, retention, and growth. The European market has token. Now it's America's turn. Check it out at us.perfectgm.com.

So, of course, adding a wellness space, as I said, it's it's really a standalone business in a club. You know, by having that, it creates a whole new revenue stream. We have, there's a couple of locations that are are trying to actually bring in a medical side where they have a therapist or a doctor or or chiropractor there that does an intake with you to see your physical condition, ask you what's your, you know, what are your goals, you know, physically as well as longevity and everything else, and then give a whole holistic program to them, which would clearly include everything in the fitness center and then also the wellness area, but also diet and the other pieces. So I feel like the government should really get behind that. I mean, if the government wanted to do something for our health, we are the government, but uh we gotta have them play along with us. But you know, if they were to actually participate in that holistic view of our health and uh and longevity, it would save a lot of money and a lot of pain, you know, for everybody if we just day one started learning all the things that we need to know. So I would say that would be a great opportunity. And you know, by having these kind of almost three silos in the business that all work together. So the fitness, the wellness, and then the you know, a medical approach where there's somebody there to help you through your through your journey. You're talking my language.

I I talk about this all the time. Like I'm I really I I want it so bad for our industry is like this integration of health and kind of being at the forefront of preventative health. I think we're we're so well positioned, you know, the fitness industry to do that. Like we have all the locations, we have the general mindset, right? We just need to make some shifts and start to invest in different areas and and and believe it. Like that's the biggest thing is we actually have to believe that this is ours to take. And that that's like the drum I just continue to be in, you know, I told you I'm gonna be interviewing John Kanerick after this. You know, that's one of the big things I want to talk about. It's like let's let's get people to do it. And it just takes a little bit of action, like, you know, putting in a wellness lounge or talking to, you know, a a medical provider nearby or partnering, building whatever it may be. Um, you know, but I think it's more of a belief thing for our industry than anything.

It is. It's sort of like our product, you know. In the beginning, um, you know, people they would Golds was actually one of the early adopters, Golds choose, crunch, and planet, of course. And but they would be like, well, you know, I don't know. And so, you know, we we'd put them in in the beginning. We would put them in and say, we will get 50 people to increase their membership. And then at that point, then you're committing to buy the machine. So so that would happen in one day. We'd go there and we get one in one day we get 50 to 100 people to sign up with one of our staff who doesn't work for the club. We're not wearing a shirt that says whatever the brand was. And but at first they were giving us, you know, kind of uh an area in the back because they weren't really sure what was going to happen. And and uh it took a while for them to actually understand that this was actually a much bigger thing than just a little amenity over in the corner. And uh so that was the kind of the hard part of this transition. And now now I think everybody does understand the value of of what we're doing as well as what others are doing too.

Yeah, fantastic. Paul, the uh the last question that's always came a big one that I ask here is like what do you need help with? Like as people are listening to this, uh, you know, I kind of told you about the type of audience we have here. Like, what would you like people to reach out about? And you mentioned your hiring, you know, uh it doesn't sound like raising money is an issue right now, you know, but what are some of the challenges that you're facing that that we can help you with as an industry?

Well, I mean, with with the growth, I mean, certainly um, you know, more people for the management and and upper levels, uh, there's we're always looking to attract more people that's been much easier lately. So, you know, 10, 15 years ago, just as the same with the customers, they wouldn't want to take a take a gamble on us and other people that were doing well in the in whatever business they were in or which company they were with, but now we're we're getting people coming forth and saying, you know, hey, you guys are you're the hot ticket here. Uh you know, I want to join the team. And so always looking to add more good people. I'd say mostly it's that the the people that have a question, I hear what they're saying, I see it everywhere, but is it really right for me? You know, I would like those people to reach out and ask and speak with our salespeople, and and and I'm sure they will help you. And yes, they're salespeople, but uh, we really don't sell products to people that aren't going to be successful with it. I mean, you know, uh in orange theory, for an example, you could argue it's a perfect case, but then they bring in 20 people and then they they leave and 20 more come. So it would be brilliant practical. They need 20 pieces of our equipment in order to be able to really be beneficial. So we don't push out, we don't push in that direction because it doesn't really make sense for them to do it financially. And it would only look bad on us afterwards when that when they're not successful. So we will help honestly, and uh we'll we'll make sure it's successful or we won't do it. Yeah.

I mean, it's really not it's not it's it's pretty simple. It's math, right? If you can make this work and it's an ROI, then you invest in it. You know, we're this is a good country.

Oh but we're all busy. We've got a hundred other things that are simple that we need to do. Hey, all you need is ten minutes a day, and you can make yourself everything. You know, it's true. So somewhere, just 10 minutes. Yeah. You know, I actually saw something the other day, it's only nine minutes now. So yeah.

Yeah, it's incredible. I was actually in my morning journal this today. I was I was like, I've let some habits fall off, like more like journaling, right? And then you know, I was doing uh my daily Portuguese practice. I was training Portuguese, my wife's Brazilian, right? Like all these things, and they kind of slowly fall off. And I was like, I was giving myself really hard time. I'm like, but this 10, 15, 20 minutes a day, every day, like it starts to add up, and eventually you're just freaking exhausted. Right?

Exactly. Yeah.

Like I just need to take a break from myself and all these rules I put on myself. But anyway, that that's so Paul, if people want to uh follow you, get in touch with you, whatever, you know, or where would you like them to to go next after this interview?

I mean, the easiest thing is just go to the website. That's probably the easiest thing, and then you can get a hold of us there or LinkedIn. Sometimes I don't look at LinkedIn very often though, because there's 500 people want to sell you something, but oh yeah, it's yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. It's not what it used to be, but no, no.

Yeah, but you know, but it's still there. Like there's a really solid connection. I'm still a fan of LinkedIn. Uh you just gotta work for it a little bit more. Yeah, right. Well, Paul, uh, thank you so much for for joining me. Um I'm really glad we made this work. Kudos to your whole team who took my information at the HFA conference, and then somehow we ended up on this interview. I thought they did a really good job. So uh well done and uh hope to get you back on in the future as well.

Well, thank you. Yeah, we're very, very not more than just that one salesperson. We just have we really have the best team, period. So all people that you know that uh I'm proud to have on the team and we're we're fortunate to have on the team. So thank you. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, uh Paul Lunter. Thank you, Eric.