Vin Miceli - Verb & Advancements In Client Engagement

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Thank you. Thank you for having me. I I really enjoy having these discussions with you.

Oh, it's a ton of fun. It's it's always a lot of fun. And it's been about, gosh, I think we were just noting 16, 17 months since we've recorded uh a podcast on here. So people can go back about that time frame and and check out some of the original uh thoughts and initiatives that you're during doing with Verb, uh, and really what your you know your founding story is. And today I definitely want to get an update on all that, uh, see what it's going on over the 16 months. I know you've had a just a crazy year of travel and you know, rubbing elbows and shaking hands and doing all the things the founders have to do. And uh also we're gonna talk about the Connected Health and Fitness Summit and then maybe a little bit more about uh you know, really what you've learned over the past few years about communication. And that's uh it's a really deep, deep rabbit hole. So we'll we'll start with that. Maybe um since this this episode is brought to us by the Connected Health and Fitness Summit, give us a little bit of insights, man. I'm I'm bummed I won't be able to be there this this February uh in 2023 in Los Angeles. But I I've heard great things and I plan on getting to the next one uh as soon as I can. So let's let's start with that. Give us some insights into into that event and what it's all about.

Yeah, it's actually one of the um first off, thanks for having me again and and and it's always a pleasure. And and the Connected Health and Fitness Summit, I would say, for me, has been probably one of the best events I've been to over the past 24 months. Um it is it has always been a high quality of people. Um, it's probably two or three days of really good sessions and and curation of meetings with the right decision makers, and that could be all the way from you know, seasoned uh legacy businesses to the earliest of startups trying to pave the way and whatever problem they're trying to solve. And it's it's such a good group of organizers, brand partners, as well as attendees, that everyone is just there to push the general agenda of good fitness is good for people, right? Leaning on the back that it is connected, right? We are in a connected world. Um, you can't get away from that word. And I think that that's evolved in itself, but they've they've done an amazing job at all the events that I've been to. Um that it just makes it a pleasure to be involved overall, whether that's as a speaker or as an attendee. Um, I've always just found an amazing set of new friends, new potential partners, potential investors. I mean, there's no shortage of quality.

Yeah, that's great. And I once again, I'm sorry I won't be able to make it, but maybe give us an example, you know, compared to other events, it sounds like it's a little bit more curated, it's smaller, it's more intimate, um, more pointed. What have been some of the big takeaways? Maybe one big takeaway that you had either a networking contact or um some sort of relationship or something that was an aha moment.

You know, um, I I will I I'm gonna shout out probably um one of the better people that I've met at the first one that I went to, and that was because I was late to the party. So the Connected Health and Fitness Summit has a really good platform to curate meetings leading up to it. So for like the four to six weeks leading up, they do a great matchmaking piece where it's like, this is who you want to meet, let's get you in front of them, put down times, and you kind of have these meetings set up. And I was late to the game. So by the time I started pinging people, um everyone's schedule was filled. Fortunately, on my panel, I guess I sounded enough, like intelligent enough that people were like, oh, maybe you have something important to say. And then I was able to squeeze a couple. But um, Mo from Sweatworks, I met him there, and he he pretty much curated his own matchmaking for me, which I thought was awesome. Just in us chatting and having a cup of coffee, um, he he probably put me in front of 10 or 12 high-quality people who are up to either become investors or clients or partners of mine. Um, so at that event, it was, you know, maybe serendipitous that we connected and we kind of hit it off, but he did a really good job of being like, Vin, um, you really gotta meet this guy. Or, hey, have you ever met, you know, so-and-so from Gym Pass, or how have you ever met um, you know, uh so-and-so from Burn or all these different companies? And he's like, Let me go grab him. You need to just talk with him. And that turned out to be such a great kind of foundation for how I saw that event that I then started doing the same things. Whereas I'm sitting with you, I might be like, Eric, you really got to meet this person for no other reason than I think you're gonna have an amazing conversation. And the event is so intimately set up that it was easy to do that. It's not like you're walking around an event with 10,000 attendees where you're like you're just another face in the crowd. So I think that's the biggest takeaway for me.

Yeah, that's great. And for uh, you know, shout out to Mo. He's been on the show as well a couple times, actually, now that I think about it. The you can find out more. It's connectedhealth and fitness.com. And if people are interested in going, you can get 10% off. Uh, I have a discount code for everybody. It's FOF as in Future Fitness 10. And you just go check out the website and you can learn more about all the events and all the cool stuff. It's February 8th and 9th, right? In in Los Angeles. Yeah. Yes. Great. Well, uh let's move on to verb. It's it's been a little while, man. What's going on over the last 16 years? We were just talking. You're like, I had the craziest year of travel, it's been bananas and meeting all these people. You're out there doing the founder's walk. What's uh what's come about?

So so I think when we spoke, we had just we had just committed to a pretty big pivot, right? Um, initially we launched as a two-sided marketplace, ton of success early on. Um, again, I didn't know a single VC early on. So the idea of making my burn go from 20,000 a month to 250 a month in like 10 days, which is what happened. There was no one I knew well enough to like fund that. But then at the same time, bigger enterprises and corporate clients were coming to us to solve their communication problem. And what made sense for me was like, okay, well, I could fund this, you know, high user count, high burn business, but I don't know anyone who's gonna fund it yet because I don't have any of those relationships yet. Or I could do what I've done traditionally, which was build businesses on the back of revenue and solve problems for clients that were coming to me with a clear problem. So when we had first met, I think we were just in the middle of that pivot and going from this kind of this B2C model to this B2B or B2B to C model, depending on how you look at it. And, you know, for anyone listening who is either running their own company, um, in my mind, a pivot's like 10 days of just like flipping a switch. And the reality is it's way more intensive than that. So that was an awesome learning curve for me. Um, one of one of my biggest skill sets, Eric, is that I'm like too stupid to know that I'm too stupid a thing. Um, so I'm like, yeah, we're gonna pivot. This makes perfect sense. Let's just do that, it'll be a solution, and we're not gonna do that.

I'm blessed in that way too, Vin. So it's a great way to be.

Yeah, it's great. You know, ignorance is bliss. So over the past 16 months, 17 months, we've really spent a lot of time talking with some of these bigger corporate clients. Um, and they're look predominantly in the fitness space, right? It's like own your niche or whatever, whatever cliche buzzword or sentence you want to talk about. We do have clients outside of it that approach us. We don't turn people away if we could easily deliver a solution for them. But what we've found increasingly, and it could be a brick and mortar business or it could be a digital offering, is that no one really knows how to communicate well with their clients. It has just become this like click funnel or marketing funnel or you know, something that someone is checking a box for their daily job, that they create long-term care emails. And it's like a lot of this blanketed stuff to just try to do something, as opposed to connecting with your clients in a real way that that brand wants to speak in the way that their brand speaks. Meaning, um, like 24-hour fitness is not gonna talk to their clients the same way that a Peloton or a Pure Bar or one of these other brands might. And we spend a lot of time with our clients helping them understand their own voice and then how you deliver that via text message, which it's not just so simple as like a text here and a text there, because again, a client at um, let's say a CrossFit affiliate needs something very different than someone who goes to a $49.99 a month, check yourself in, gym, and go work out. And those touch points are different, the accountability is different, and how they want to be spoken to is different. So, what ended up happening is I I built this platform for accountability and understanding human behavior and how to look at habits and how they can breed success or failure. And what we ended up doing is becoming experts in communication. Um, we've been in, I have no idea how many millions of conversations via text where I can look at a communication between, let's say, uh a coach and a client and be like, you're missing the mark on all this. And all you have to do to just increase that user experience is like send a message saying this, one line, send this, ping this, say congratulations to that. Um, ask this question when they say this. So we we have become increasingly more, you know, we almost call it like um advisory for our clients for free, right? It's like we help our clients solve this communication hurdle because everyone has it. They they all say the same thing, which is client engagement is broken. We we don't know how to communicate with our clients, we don't know how to get them engaged in our upsell or our discounts or our events or or how to even do a thing more. Um, and we spend a lot of time just educating around that. Um, it's you know, text message is the easiest, the fastest, the simplest way to communicate with anyone on the planet. So why aren't brands using it in a better way? And I think it's just traditionally, most people have really only ever used a text type service on the front end of like a marketing sale or some kind of long-term care where it's like, hey, haven't seen you in three weeks, want to come by the gym? Um, so we spend a lot of time just really understanding how they want to talk to their clients and what they breed as success when it comes to actions their clients need to take. And then we help them do that via text.

Why is there such a disconnect between fitness brands and their clientele? Like it, and I'm not, I think it's it's absolutely true. And I look back at myself, I have to hold a mirror, you know, when I was, you know, an operator of how I was probably missing the mark. I was relying a lot on email, but is it because of the modalities? Is it because people are leaning on, you know, social or email versus you know SMS? Is it the language? Is it the timing? Is it the emotional understanding of each individual client? I'm sure it's a little bit of all that, but when you diagnose it, what what's what's the the major issue?

Yeah, it's uh it's an awesome question. So so as an operator myself, right? I've owned a I've owned an affiliate for I think we're I think I'm coming on nine years now, nine or ten years, right? Um I was able to navigate a lot of that communication myself for 150, 200, 250 people, right? And then lean on some of my staff to help me there. So the idea that I could navigate most of those relationships manually without a huge lift was doable. What happens a lot is, and we see this increasingly, let's say I own, you know, XYZ Fitness, right? And XYZ Fitness is 400 locations across the country, and each location has an average 4,000 members. I have a huge machine running. We've got regional directors, those regional directors manage the, you know, the general manager who manages the sales team, et cetera. And everyone has their box they live in, and no one is really paying attention to the 4,000 people who walk through their doors every day. Maybe like 50 or 60 of them, but generally everyone's just a face in the crowd. And what we have learned increasingly is the idea of retention, I think is pretty broken. Gyms have some idea of LTV, it's typically made up based off some amount of inputs, like, hey, my members typically cancel after 18 months, and if I sell them nutrition, it's 24 months. And then what I do is I try to front load my acquisition to offset my churn on the back end. And I've seen it in every form, whether it's digital or brick and mortar. And what I think no one has really thought about, and it's a it's an easy saying, we all know it, it's easier to keep a client than to find a new one. But no one actually knows how to do that without bloating their staff, completely inundating people with customer service requests, and also just tying someone to a computer or a phone all day to just field those relationships. So, how do you maintain 4,000 conversations enough so that those clients feel like the brand actually cares about them, which they do, they just don't know how to show it, and you don't drown that brand at the location with work upon work upon work for someone that might cancel anyway. And that's really what we help them think through. You know, some of our clients send a text three times a week, some of our clients send three texts a day. It all depends on that end consumer and what their expectation is. And something we proved really early on because people hear us and they're like, oh, AI texting, chatbots are cool. Like, we don't replace a human. A human will never be replaced in the fitness journey. I don't care how good your product is. Humans are not stupid, and we don't want to just report to a computer. Um I'll I'll use Aura as an example because I still use the product, so I don't mind talking about my experience with it. Um I only log into my Aura every day to send my actual coach how many steps I did in a day. If I didn't have to send that to her, I'd never open the app ever because there's no one there. Like it just gets old to me. And I think it gets old to a lot of people. The amount of people that have, let's say, a wearable or an online program that there's no one on the other side of, like at some point the accountability just goes away. So imagine um, again, so like what do you go to a gym currently?

Yeah, I go to the white fish wave.

Okay, so the the white fish wave, that's an awesome name.

It is. And there's no there's no waves really here, which is kind of funny.

But go ahead. Like big box gym, group training, what is it?

It's it's like uh it's like our version of YMCA. It's like a local YMCA. Perfect.

Okay, cool. So uh think about it this way: you go to the gym how many times a week?

Three, four.

Perfect. Okay, so Eric, you go to the gym three, four times a week. Let's say you typically go to the gym at 5 a.m. before your day gets started, and that is your habit. We know that that's like true for six or seven months, and then all of a sudden that changes. You don't need a human to actually call you and be like, hey, Eric, like what's going on? Are you okay? It might be something as simple as like, hey, Eric, the past six months you've done three or four days every week at 5 a.m. We notice you logged in on Monday and you haven't been back for two weeks. Is there something we can do to help? Are you injured? Do you need something? And you might just be like, it's all good, just been traveling, and you're like, holy shit, they care. Now, that text might be automated. Your response is manual, and then imagine right on the other side of you, I've just been traveling. I actually jump in and say, Eric, GM here. When you travel, do you pay attention to hydration? Um, are you overdoing your chia seeds and your, you know, immune system? And you're like, holy shit, not only does my gym care about me, they heard what I said, and then they gave me something that mattered at the exact moment I needed it. You now, without realizing it, are psychologically tied to that your gym cares about you in a way that actually showed they do, not some bullshit kind of cookie cutter thing. And that's what we'd strive to help our companies with that we work with.

Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, you you answered my next question was how do you how do you show you care? And uh, you know, via text message. When um I guess let's walk me through some of the differences too. I'm curious about that. So let's say it's you know a CrossFit gym, 150 members, right? And then my my my gym I go to here are 3,000, right? Community-based, right? You got one that's like, you know, very much about I would some would say CrossFit's really kind of advanced training um for the most part. Um, and then you get a community one that has, you know, tons of kids' activities and basketball and pickleball and you know some weight training. It's just a different culture altogether, right? So, how how do those communications styles differ or strategies differ? Although COVID may no longer be a significant threat to business, the connected fitness industry is still facing challenges. As the industry enters an exciting era of transformation, companies are now compelled to innovate not just their product offerings, but their entire business model to keep up with the ever-changing consumer attitude towards health and fitness. After three very successful years, the Connected Health and Fitness Summit is returning to Los Angeles this February 8th and 9th to explore the industry's most pressing challenges and oddest trends. A value act. It's an event where real relationships are built and lucrative professional networks are expanded. Time to reevaluate your value propositions and clearly identify your role into your customer's fitness and wellness routine. We're bringing together the strongest brands of fitness and beyond to find out how. Download the agenda to find out more. Go to connected health and fitness.com and use discount code FOF10 to get an exclusive 10% off your event ticket. That's Connected Health.

Yeah, it's a it's an amazing question. It's something that's taken us a lot, a lot of time to not only to understand, because again, we're doing something that doesn't exist, right? Like we are we're a product that you can like like any SaaS product resell over and over again. But the reality is, is how your gym talks to you, and let's say how my gym talks to its members is going to be completely different. So the vibe, the emotion, what the outcome is will be completely different. So I'll use um I'll use a couple very specific examples. Um, let's say at your gym, they internally have a stat that says when Eric joins, if he comes to the gym 10 times in the first month, he will stay for a year. Right? A lot of the gyms and brands that I talk to have this kind of like this general stat of an action that needs to be taken by the client, and that will deem some output for them as a company. So, what we would do with your gym specifically is I was just saying, okay, cool. So someone Eric joins, we have to help him get to 10 as fast and as safely and as effectively and pleasure-filled as possible. We don't want it to be a headache, we don't want it to be monotonous, but we want him to like walk himself to 10 visits as soon as possible because once we get him over the hump, we then know we've got him for a year, arguably, right? What would then happen from there is we might cue you to different actions that you're already taking in the gym based off what we're being fed from that management system. You log in, you buy protein, you join for paddle ball, you rent, you know, whatever. You rent swim shoes, like all these little actions, whatever you can give us, we will then help the gym itself curate very specific things to Eric's journey that will allow him to be like, you know what? I really did enjoy paddle. Why didn't I do that more? I'm gonna go grab another, you know, another session there, right? Um, which then leads to a whole different set of upsells and different things we could do once we're in with a brand. But the the vast majority on the front end is understanding actions that a client needs to take for their own success. And then helping them and influencing them in a positive way to do that with jumping in human at the right time and then walking them successfully through the life of their journey as a client at that facility. So that's like on the big box, we have thousands of people, we have a churn we have to maintain, help us do that, right? That's like our churn product, if you want to call it that. We also map churn. So, like once we have a once we're in a gym for about six months, we can start to spit out the month you're most likely gonna cancel. And it's my CTO would say it's more than random. We're we're above 60-ish percent accurate at the moment. So it's still new and still learning and still doing a thing. But if I knew with 60% accuracy the month someone was gonna cancel my gym, that would be huge for me as a gym owner. I could give them a free month, I could give them a t-shirt, I could just pat them on the back. You'd be surprised, just a hello, how long that elongates someone's membership. So that's on the big side. On the smaller micro gym side, we really understand what their products are. So I own a group fit, group fitness facility, we do personal training, I have you know a private gym that people pay a very pretty penny to go to. Um, and we have a multitude of different classes. We run a buy one, try three, right? And this is a very unique product. But for us, I didn't like doing free trials. Um I knew that if I can get you to buy one class and try three, not only did I already collect your debit card, but I knew that if I can get you to take three classes in about 10 days, you should have experienced the vibe in the gym and you'll join. Right. So, what we do there is if you buy that product, you're automatically loaded into a 14-day journey that has been tested hundreds of times over the past year and tweaked and tweaked. And hey, we saw you took this class, you should try that class. Hey, you have two classes left. And what that does is it walks someone through their 10-day journey in my gym, teaches them about the rooms, they get a couple videos. I mean, by the time those three trials are done now, everyone who signs up is up to speed with everybody else in my building. And it's become an amazing product for us to work with other micro gyms on because we just take whatever way they get people in the door. It's a one-day trial, it's a free week, it's a this, and then we help them think through that journey of a client. And then what it does is it automatically upsells them in a good way, right? It's like, hey, your one week's over. Are you ready to get started? Or do you want Eric to call you and walk you through any other questions? Yes, have Eric call me. Hey, hey, Vin, Eric here. When's a good time? I'll jump on the call with you quick. All of a sudden, they're like, man, they're on it. They care. I'm not getting lost in the shuffle. So those are two very different extremes on how we're being used in in facilities at the moment.

Yeah. And it it's pretty intuitive to me that SMS just seems to be like the most effective.

We have like a 90, like a 91% answer rate. I mean, it's it's in it's people, you know, for a while we used to think when people didn't answer us that they didn't want the product. So we started, we started sending, I think it was after three or four days. If someone goes without answering, we're like, hey, we don't want to bother you, we'll pause this. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. It reminds me to go to the gym. It tells me to drink my water. I don't need to answer it for to have success. So that for us was an even bigger factor that even if someone doesn't answer a text, they're still opening it and it's doing what they need, um, how they need it. People are really vocal that if a text is not working for them, they'll tell you.

Can you, and I'm naive to this, can you see if someone's opened a text message or Reddit? Is there uh is there any way to do that?

No, you can't. You base it off delivery, and then we base it off of answers and what people say. And then the other thing that we'll do is I'll give you another example here. Let's say that I'm texting you to get you to go to the gym 10 times. And let's say you're not answering. Say you answer one every six messages. But if I say, hey, Eric, you've been to the gym five, get over that hump. We want to get you to 10. And then the next day you check in for six, we know that that worked. Right. So it's one of the other ways. I mean, it's not, it's not a pure science, but it comes down to if people are utilizing our platform and doing the actions they're being influenced or recommended to do, we do count that as kind of like a positive outcome as well.

Yeah, that's great. And where are you guys seeing the most traction? Like we mentioned those two kind of, you know, pretty normal, I guess, uh, you know, classifications of gyms, the big box and the the boutique CrossFit type affiliate. But where where are you guys seeing the most ground getting covered?

Yeah, so so we've we ran into an interesting, I would say, crossroads, uh, maybe about seven months ago, where we were selling a product and selling a service at the same time. Meaning a CrossFit affiliate or a friend, an individual franchisee like an F-45 or an Orange Theory or a Row House or a Pure Bar, those individual franchisees are gonna want to own those conversations, right? They're gonna want to be in them, they're gonna want to navigate them, they don't want someone else doing it. But on these bigger brands we talk to, they're really happy with us being a line item for retention, meaning we handle the communications for them as well as a service. I mean, so you're talking about like imagine um your gym contracts with us, and they're like, hey, um we churn 30% of our members a year. We'd love to lower that to 20%. We are willing to pay this much per member to try to change that retention number, have at it. We'll do all the curation of conversation, we'll optimize it, we'll serve, we'll, you know, we'll float things up the flagpole because that happens too. It's like, hey, toilet bowl four doesn't work, or there's no paper towels. Like you get random customer service things, which then have to be routed, and we do that automatically as well. So we we are finding with these bigger, with these bigger businesses, um, and that could be like hold codes all the way to franchised or or corporately owned brands, um, they're just interested in looking at it as a much bigger equation of retention, where they're like, look, this is our retention issue and this is our churn. We're willing to invest to solve that, solve that for us. And they come to us in much more than just a product. But like, let's say at the affiliate level, John and Jane Doe, who run, you know, let's say CrossFit XYZ or or a pure bar or a mom and pop style micro gym, they love it for themselves. It separates their phone number. People aren't texting them on their private phone. There's some there's some space between it. Um, and then it all lives in one place. So as time goes, the front desk runs it, the GM runs it. Um, so we're seeing a lot of traction in that, in that convert retain product, which is we'll help you convert them to a thing. And it's not, we're we're definitely a post-sale product. Even if the sale is a trial, um, we don't really want to be on like the marketing side, but we'll convert into a thing and then help you retain that person over the life of their journey and/or elongate that. Those are the main places that we're getting utilized. Um, we we run a number of challenges. Like people come to us strictly for challenges and nothing else. They're like, hey, we want to run a 45-day water challenge, curate the 45 days, spit out a report for us. This is what's important. Awesome. And then we automate that whole thing. We tend to run billing for them if they need it, but that's a product that is very easy for us to stand up. And people come to us all the time for it. Uh, and a lot of the digital products are using us for their challenges because whatever app or platform they're using just doesn't do it the way that they need it to.

Yeah, push notifications aren't nearly as effective, right?

No, not even close. Uh, and a lot of the clients come to us and they're like, oh, we'd love to like put your technology in our in-app and we fight them. I'm like, look, like I get it, and I'm turning away a bunch of money if you say no, but like I would strongly recommend running this via text, even if it flows through your platform and spits out a text, you're not gonna get the engagement you think in in-app. It's just not there.

Yeah. And I love that sales scenario too of going to the big box gym and like, hey, we're we're losing 30% here. What if we saved you 10%? It it's such a great and friendly sales scenario, be like, hey, let's just get right down to it. It's funny, Vin. It always seems to come down to time and money, right? And in the in the in the small gym owner, it's the time primarily, right? The big boxes, it's money. And it always seems to boil down to those two things. Uh as we start looking forward, I mean, we're uh we're in the holidays here as far as recording, but what what's got you excited about 2023, Vin? What's uh what are you looking forward to? Now that you've been a little break from travel.

Yeah, it's exciting. So um, you know, technically, uh depending on who you ask, we might be considered a bootstrap business. Um, you know, we've we've raised uh a few million bucks led, you know, led predominantly by myself and and our largest investor. Um so we haven't really done, I would say, like an institutional funding that's crunch base worthy yet. Um so I'm excited for that. You know, we passed on some odd terms in the beginning of 22 that just felt off to me. Um and obviously there was some correction. So I'm we're actually in a position of hiring and not firing like a lot of people in our space, um, which has been good, but I'm the most excited that I think this year, this year was surprisingly painful for a lot of people in a way that I don't think people realize. So we've seen the the resurgence and the kind of a testament to in-person fitness. It's not going away, right? Like I make the joke all the time, and I've probably made it on a number of podcasts that like, you know, Nordic track and they're alore the legacy business, they've probably been around a hundred years, but you know, the the joke I make is they've been making clothes hangers for a hundred years. And, you know, we kind of got we kind of got caught up in that in-home was gonna blow everything out of the water. And I think this year was the the swing back of the pendulum, not only on a lot of the price correction and member corrections that happened in previous years, but people coming back and realizing, okay, so we've got to get clear on our unit unit economics, digital or in person. So I think that there was some pain there. There were obviously some clear winners over the past year. I'm really excited to see in Q1 and Q2, I think a lot of people are gonna come out of the gate swinging. I think the vast majority of the world is just ready for 2022 to be over. Um, and they're kind of hoping that, like, okay, 2023, we're gonna get back on the saddle. I'm getting back in the batter's box, take some cuts. And I think a lot of people are really gearing up to showcase what they've been working on, how they're separating themselves, and then be able to see um the brands, whether that's brick and mortar or digital, who have been doing the financial work behind the scenes this year for it to come fruitful next year. And I think that's where you're gonna see a lot of really cool, innovative companies rise to the top and start hearing of partnerships and relationships that people didn't know were happening or working on, where the people who have done the financial due diligence and diligence this year to kind of like pay attention to how they spend and where they invest for it to really hit the ground running next year. We have a lot, we have some really exciting brand partnerships we've been working on, really getting in the weeds with some amazing brands that for us will be kicking off in Q1. And we're super excited to kind of get in bed and say, hey, you know, we're we've got in bed with a couple brands and we want to change the face of their business, and we're okay with that. Right. And we want to like, we want to, as a company and as our own culture, be loyal to people that want to be loyal to us and brand partners that are, you know, supportive of our journey and what it takes to be a startup. So I'm really excited for 2023 to just like hit the ground running as fast as humanly possible and continue to show people that like boring text message can change their business.

Yeah, I think it's great. And I agree. I I'm excited as well for very similar reasons. I I look at, I think I was reading a report, I don't know if it was the Bernares or not, but about how much uh venture capital is being dammed up right now and ready to deploy. So there's it's not, and even if you look at the stock market, right? I mean, I've been, you know, since one of the things I got out of the pandemic is I became an amateur stock investor, like super amateur, like really shitty uh at doing it. But I've been watching it and I've been noticing just people are waiting, right? I don't know what they're waiting for exactly, some kind of sign, right? From from when whenever that sign comes, I think it's gonna be really exciting. Things are gonna pick up really fast. So it's uh I agree, it's gonna be a fascinating year.

You know, it's it's you you you said something interesting. Deploying capital is notoriously boring if you do it well, right? Um deploying capital into companies that have the 10x, 100x outsized returns, if you do it well, those companies should be boring and don't need your help. And generally, VCs are spending most of their time with companies that need help. Now, you are seeing that that everyone's just kind of like risk off. And if the portfolio or fund is has a long enough horizon, they could just wait, right? Like there's no rush for a lot of these VC funds. Um I do think a lot of people really got caught up in 21-ish in deploying capital because they didn't want to miss what was happening, myself included. And I think that that's again the swing of the pendulum back where everyone's like, okay, let's that was kind of crazy, let's chill out for a minute. And then the other thing, when you look at the public sector, everyone I know in the public sector, they're just risk off. I mean, they're 70% in cash. They're like waiting, you like you said, no one knows what they're waiting for, but they're waiting for something, whether that's inflation to actually change or you know, the Fed to make a decision, or some big whatever big company is gonna go belly up, goes belly up in the public sector and drags everyone down 10%, whatever. Someone, everyone's waiting for something. And what I think people forget, especially in the public sector, again, it's boring. What if we trade sideways for three years, which is possible? You know, some some of the best, some of the best wealth creation might happen in trading sideways for three years if you're diligent enough. So when you think about startups, it was always speed, speed, speed, speed, speed to market, speed to growth, speed to all this stuff, and everything else is secondary. I do think we'll start to see a time where companies that are financially prudent will be, will, will earn those outsized rewards, right? Because at the end of the day, a company that knows how to make money will always win outside of a company that's just burning capital. It doesn't mean that companies that burn capital aren't going to change the world and aren't gonna be these behemoths of businesses. I just think that, you know, when when push comes to shove, um, being able to make a healthy margin on a business that solves a real problem will get a lot of attention next year.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, Vin, uh, we're kind of button up on time here. What uh besides the Connected Health and Fitness Summit, you know, that's where people can obviously go see you in person in February. Um, real quick, people, if you want that discount code against uh FOF as in Future of Fitness 10, FOF 10. Um where do people go to learn more about you? Vin, or if they want to reach out and connect and they want to chat with you, what do you where do you want them to go?

Yeah, a great question. Um, fortunately, I'm old enough that every time a new platform came out, I was able to get my first and last name in one word on every platform. So I'm pretty easy to find. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn, Vincent and Selly. Uh, you can find us at verb.co. Really simple. Um, I'll throw it out there. I might regret it after, but my email is even easier. It's Vin at verb.co. It's like eight letters. Um, yeah, reach out. I love talking to founders. I love helping people work through stuff. It's one of my favorite things to do is just kind of like jam out on all the things we make believe we know as founders that really we all just don't know and we're figuring it out. Um and uh yeah, I mean, uh my phone's always on um just to text away, right?

Right on. Right on. Well, Vin, it's it's always a pleasure, man. And uh yeah, recuperate from all that work this year. Enjoy the holidays, and uh, I'm excited to see what you guys do in 2023. I'm sure it's gonna be great.

Yeah, likewise. I'll keep you posted. Thank you for having me as always.

Yeah, likewise. Ladies and gentlemen, Vin Misselli. Thank you. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This was your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future Refinance. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it, on iTunes, Spotify, Catbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, sure. Put on social media, talk about it to your friends, and whatever it may be, please for this episode because I put a lot of work into and want to make sure that many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more, get in touch with me, simply go to the feature of finished.co, or you can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to talk from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is work now, and this is the feature of Finance.