The Future of Home Fitness...and Beyond - Aly Orady

We never expected the impact to be to be as broad. Uh we thought we were just gonna help people strengthen. We didn't realize we were gonna be addressing so much back pain, knee pain, shoulder pain. Uh and that's uh that that's very, very powerful. Right. The deeper I dig into that, I realize one in two Americans uh suffers from some some sort of muscle skeletal pain. And it's it's something in terms of like me moving the needle on health in America, it's it's something I'm starting to become a lot more passionate about the more I read about it, the more I learned.

What's up, Fitness fans? Welcome back to the Future of Fitness Podcast and Interview Series. This is your host, Eric Balzone, and this is episode number 163. Talk to Ali about it. So uh he is the CEO and founder of Tonal. You can actually go to episode 111 of this show, and you get a great introduction into who Ali is and uh his piece of tech, the Tonal. Crazy cool. And you know, talking to him now a year later after that, um roughly a year uh later after that first interview and seeing where it's come, um, where it's going now, uh, the data, um, the opportunities that they're presenting for fitness professionals, personal trainers, remote coaches, um, it's just wild. I mean, literally, this show is called the Future of Fitness, right? And it's all really encapsulated in this type of interview. Uh, this is where it's going. This is what the show is all about. This is the tech. This is where it all converges into one place, and this is where the opportunity is. So I can't emphasize enough like if you're not looking at this type of technology and seeing the opportunities there, and if you're if you're looking at it as a threat or whatever, you're you're looking at it the wrong way. This is an opportunity. This is where it's going. And it's awesome. I mean, it's it's a huge opportunity to to make an impact in in health and obesity and pain, all these things, and it's gonna blow your mind. So take notes on this, um, pause it every once in a while, let it sink in and uh and really enjoy it. So um before we get into interview, it is brought to you by Level Five Mentors. Uh happens to be my company, L E V E L, the number five mentors.com, uh co-founded with uh Ken and Druco, and now we're building a team of coaches and mentors, and it's it's a coaching experience like any other. And the reason being is is our mindset and our approach and our values and what it means to be successful as an entrepreneur and a founder. And it's not just the money, it's important. Don't get me wrong, it's important about your health, um, your lifestyle, your relationships, the purpose, all of that. These are key factors that are going into being truly successful. And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, when our days are coming to an end, what are you gonna want? Are you gonna care about what's in your bank account? Sure. If it meant freedom in your life, and what does that freedom mean? What are you gonna do with it? And what are the different types of freedom? These are questions that we ask on a daily basis. And if that type of message resonates with you, then go to level five mentors, L-E-V-E-L, the number five at mentors.com, and uh book a call with us, and we're happy to talk to you. So do it. Why hesitate? It doesn't cost you anything, zero expectations. I just want to hear your story, and uh it would be great to talk to you. So without further ado, this is episode number 163 with Ollie O'Reilly of Tonal. Enjoy the ride, let it blow your mind. We're live. Ollie, welcome back. Thank you. Great to be back. Yeah, man. Um God, just so much you are in quite an exciting space. I mean, not only is your company growing with Tonal, we'll talk about that. Um, that's day this recording, you got a kid on the way. I mean, things are uh life's moving at a blistering pace for you, Ollie.

Yeah, that's that's right. We've uh just in the past year, we've grown a lot. I think I think when we talked last time, I told you that we were just about to begin our nationwide expansion. We've now been available nationwide. We have you know uh customers, members all over all over the the country using the product and reporting the progress. Uh we've had some vibrant communities form uh online where they're getting together and celebrating each other's wins and answering each other's questions. Uh we've opened up showrooms, five of them. Uh there's there's been a lot going on. It's been it's been a very exciting, exciting year. Uh and then and then I, you know, I as I think I mentioned to you, I'm I'm about to have my first child, uh, which means that I need this product more than I ever have. Uh because getting to the gym just became even more impossible.

Right.

Uh where are the showrooms? I don't know if I ever asked you that.

Where are those? Uh San Francisco. Uh we have um Los Angeles, uh, Dallas, New York City, and New Jersey. Awesome.

Um let's you mentioned community, and that it's it's a curious point for me because you know, like we were talking before recording, like if you had told me that 10 years ago there was gonna be home devices like Tonal or you know, your competitors and and Peloton and Mirror, and people are gonna be paying what they pay, and then there's gonna be subscription base, and people are gonna you know put it in their home and use it all the time, and then it's gonna have a community on top. I would have thought that's crazy, it's never gonna work, right? But here we are. And yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I I think I think I think people's in the last decade, people's like notion of community has has changed, right? There's uh there's a time when community happened in a in a third space, in physical third space. You would go to a community center or church or a gym or you know, you would go somewhere, you'd meet other people, you begin to build these associations, and you know, casual conversations would turn into deep conversations. Uh and and right now, uh, with you know, as people do more and more stuff virtually and in-home, um, you know, us and other, you know, strength tonal with strength training, but uh also some of the cardio products on the market, um, they're going online onto places like Facebook uh and forming groups, affinity groups with people where where they're talking to each other about the workouts and asking questions and supporting each other and celebrating each other's wins. Uh and then and then actually building um not just kind of the the passing conversations, but but having really deep conversations and exchanging phone numbers and texting each other and uh and things like that. So it's uh it's it's the same thing that used to happen in the gym. Uh it's now happening online. It's pretty it's pretty incredible to watch.

So what's like with these online communities? Um what's what's the I guess what's the glue between, you know, obviously the equipment, people are people like posting workouts and asking questions about like how do I do that? Like what's the glue? What's the starting point for those communities?

Um I think as as far as I can tell, and I think tonal's a little bit different than than some of the other ones, uh, tonal, the the core of Tonal's community is um is motivation and uh and education. Uh strength training is you know, as as you you're you're well aware, is uh is a more complicated thing uh than say cardio. Like we all know how to run, right? You know, we've been doing it since we were kids. Uh we all know how to cycle at all. You know, we've been doing that since we're kids. Strength training is a little bit more complex. And so folks are going online to ask each other questions like, hey, uh, I'm, you know, uh, we just released this new program called Go Big or Go Home, which is very focused on hypertrophy and uses advanced modes like eccentric overload and things like that. So uh and and so people are going on there asking questions as they're going through this four-week program for the first time, they're asking each other questions. Uh, they're asking, like, how do I incorporate my cardio routine into this? You know, they're asking about nutrition. And so, you know, as as people are going into these these programs for the first time, or even coming onto tonal for the first time, a lot of people who bought tonal, I'd say about a third, uh, never strength trained before tonal. They did a lot of cardio and they kind of hit a wall where where they now know that they need to strength train more. Uh, and and tonal is their way to do that. And so they're they're going in and asking questions like, hey, my knee hurts when I do, you know, when I do a squat, um, what can I do about it? And and so there's a lot of knowledge sharing. Uh, and then the the other one, of course, is just motivation, uh having people uh get up there, post progress photos of themselves, and having everyone effectively virtually high-five them and acknowledge the progress they're making. Uh, it's the same thing that happens when you see someone at the gym and you're like, hey, you're you're looking really good. You've been you've been at this for a while and I'm starting to see the results. Congrats. That same that same sort of stuff's happening online. Uh and I think we're we're human beings. We we want to be acknowledged, we want to be celebrated. Uh, and and it's a powerful thing.

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's, you know, I'm pretty amazed with um, you know, the lifestyle I have too, where I don't I don't see a whole lot of people in person. I I've um like I just saw one of my clients, Jay Croft, uh, in person for the first time, you know, last week. And I was a man, I'm like, I feel like I've known this get this person forever, right? And all we've done is Zoom or chat, um, you know, various things. And it's funny how like the community can actually, in my I guess I'm surprised at how strong an online community can be, right? Without that touch.

Yeah, that I think the reason, I mean the physical touch is missing, but what is there is it's always it's always in your pocket. Uh, and so I uh I can turn on the tonal community for myself at 5 a.m. in the morning, midnight, 2 a.m. Um, you know, while I'm you know walking two blocks to a meeting, like anytime I have a free moment, I can check in with the community. And I think it's harder to do that in in real life now. Yeah, in some ways, online has brought us closer, but the physical world, population density, traffic um has has has also pushed us further apart. Right. Um probably yeah, yeah. I mean I'm I I probably keep better touch with people who live live across the country than I do with people who live in San Francisco because the ones here I have a false sense of like, oh, I can just see them next weekend. Yeah, but but I don't. And then, you know. So I I I think I think community is just gonna it's gonna continue to be a bigger and bigger piece um as as this world evolves and and we we end up opting for convenience, most convenient way to work out. I think we're gonna fill the those those human gaps in other ways.

Yeah. Time time is a is becoming a uh, I mean, it's always been the most important commodity, right? But now it's it seems like people are really starting to realize, and our lives are busy. They're just busy. You know, we're we're very good in North America and in West Western civilization and keeping busy. And uh, you know, we think all we have so many. I mean, I look at my calendar, I'm like, why do I how don't I get booked from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m.? Like, how do I stay that busy? And then so those little pockets of time, like 20, 30 minutes, become super valuable. And that's where something like tonal comes in. Um, you know, I think I like to steer the conversation a little bit too to a topic that I think is tremendously large, right? Which is, you know, as this stuff is now, it's not a fluke anymore. People are getting in-home technology like tonal and they're using it, they're building communities around it, right? How is the fitness industry and the fitness professional going to adapt to these you know changes? And really, you know, if you look at it the right way, it's opportunity, right? We're we're accessing a whole pool of people that weren't accessed before. So, how how in your mind is is the fitness professional? I mean, I have plenty of thoughts, but I want to hear it from you. How do you think we're gonna adapt?

Sure. Well, I mean, tonal, um, tonal is an in-home is the the first ever like in-home digital strength training system. Uh, it's super comp, it's actually behind me on the wall here, but it's super compact. It's about the size of a flat screen TV. And on the left and right are arms that pop out, and you can reconfigure them into a series of positions and and literally do every exercise you can you can dream of. And so now um, you know, it used to be that you had to go to a gym or to a personal trainer uh in order to gain access to the equipment you needed because getting it into your home was was really impossible. And now anyone can have all the equipment they need in their home. Uh and then a lot of the you know things I think we talked about even last time we were on on the, you know, I was on the podcast. Um, there's a lot of the things that that human beings used to do when they were helping you work out, counting your reps, helping you choose how much weight you should lift. Um, those types of things are now they're just software. They're automated. Tonal counts your reps, there's artificial intelligence that measures how strong you are uh and determines how much weight you should lift and decides when it's time for you to go up and down in weight. And it happens in one-pound increments, so it's really, really, really accurate. Um, and so I think the the first the first step is just an acknowledgement of what is it that machines are good at and what is it that human beings are good at. Right. Uh and so I I think uh when I think about the you know the industry, uh and in the context of US society, last time I did the math, there were about enough personal trainers to serve 0.3% of the US population. So uh about you know um three three in a thousand, uh three three personal trainers for every every thousand uh people who needed a personal trainer. Um and so so um really like it's just there aren't very many uh professionals who who really um who really have the expertise. Uh and I don't think it's about you know giving people access to equipment or counting the reps. I think it's about helping them figure out how this fitness thing fits into their whole life. Uh it's about being a true coach and a true guide and a strategic planner. Uh, because we all know that if you do just nutrition, you're not going to lose weight. If you do just fitness, you're not going to lose weight. Um, that it's a combination of exercise and nutrition and recovery, sleep, right? Uh you could have the perfect diet and the perfect workout routine. If you don't sleep, um, you will not lose weight. Right. So, so you know, there there's there's this more kind of holistic guidance and figuring out how to guide people uh to what their true goals are and understanding their their lives more holistically, um, and that human connection of of accountability and finding out like having the conversation, why didn't you why did you miss your workout this morning? Right? Why were you feeling that way? Uh and so you know, it takes knowledge of physiology and nutrition and recovery, uh, and it takes that same level of expertise. Um, but but I think the industry is gonna have to shift more and more into into into that. Um if all uh folks are doing is giving people access to equipment uh and and being there to you know to to mark down their progress on a piece of paper. Uh sorry, that that's been automated for him. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Well, it plays into the much bigger, bigger and uh very popular conversation of you know what's gonna happen when machine learning, AI, automation, all this is becoming just a more more um, it's just becoming normal in our life. Like you know, so much of it is is is automated now. And you know, um the optimist will always say, well, that's that's fantastic, you know, um it's gonna allow us to elevate to higher higher order work for you know, lack of a better term. And I think what we're talking about too is you know, I've I've gone at every stage of of the fitness industry and you know, um, I love my personal training clients, but I have to be honest and say it was one of the most draining things because you know, if you're there with them for an hour because some obligatory rule that 60 minutes is the the average span of a workout, right? We don't know who said it just fits in conveniently with calendars, I guess. So you need to sit there and you know, a lot of times it would you'd be counting reps and you know, kind of having small talk and you know, um a lot of therapy, really, right? Just helping people with their problems. And I found it to be a very inefficient use of my time overall. And I got paid well for personal training, but it was, it just wasn't. And I and that's why I started turning remote coaching. I'm like, okay, I can just lay out a program for a month. And then when I talk to my clients, you know, it's gonna be very focused on the big picture, right? That's right. And I think that's where all of this can head to is you can, as a coach, you can look at this as an opportunity, you know, and how many households this is in and how many it's gonna be in. We're like, okay, how do I access that? And now how do I become a higher order coach versus a trainer?

It's it's kind of the worst kept secret, but uh, up until this point, users who use tonal have have had to follow workouts that we've created with our with our coaches. And uh the feature that's shipping in just a few weeks uh allows people to author their own workouts. Uh so uh rather than following a workout that we've pre-created or just completely freestyling it, uh, they can now pre-create a workout, uh follow along, and we'll automatically choose the weight for them, log, log everything that they've done, uh, and generate the post-workout report. And so if they're working with a coach or you know, some sort of a personal trainer, uh, they can certainly help them help them with that progress as well.

Yeah, that's that's huge. That's a big feature. And probably it'll be out right around the time that this podcast releases. So, how how does that um I guess if I'm if I'm a trainer, fitness professional, remote coach, um I'm thinking like, well, how do I get ahead of that? How do I get involved in that and be kind of an early adopter of such such thing? Because that's that's tremendous. I mean, you can I'm when I was I did a lot of remote coaching when it started to get popular, um, especially in in the area I was at, there's a lot of people who just want to pay access to my gym, right? And I'm like, well, no, my my gym rates are you know 200 bucks a month. You can pay that and just have access to open gym, but that doesn't make sense, right? So now it makes a lot more sense for people who you know have those remote coaching to to like actually get a device that's in home. Yeah, I I I'm my mind's spinning because I see all the opportunity now to it connects, it connects, right? It finally connects with the the wild, while the huge pool of fitness professionals and what they can get access to.

So what yeah, how what do they do? What do we do as fitness? If I was a fitness professional in this in this new world, um, I would I would be going out and finding clients who don't need me to meet with them three times a week. Uh, and I'd really be asking them, what equipment do you have access to? What equipment are you willing to buy? Um, and how can I be your guide in putting together a more more holistic uh fitness journey uh that also includes considerations like sleep and nutrition so that I can really figure out how to help you achieve achieve your goals holistically, right? Uh, you know, tonal does does a lot for people. Uh but if people, if someone's a really, really big runner, tonal is only, you know, might might only be half of their fitness journey. Um and uh their their nutrition probably needs to shift, right? Probably not the same nutrition if you're a heavy runner versus if you're have a heavy strength trainer. Uh and you know, sleep matters, um, uh risk of stress fractures matters uh when you're when you're running a lot. So so all of these things, you know, having someone who can really guide you is important. So I I would be looking for people, but I the conversation I would be having isn't how many times a week um can I meet with you? It's really what is your life, how's your life set up, and how can I really help you get get there?

Yeah. And what's cool about that too is it in it obviously provides a huge opportunity to be new and innovative as a fitness professional, but it also gets you out of that time, time for money trap. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

It's a burnout factor. Yeah, it's it's it's actually no longer about how many hours um you work, it's about how big of an impact you can have on someone's life.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Who uh I don't know if I ever asked you this, Ollie, but what who's buying these things? Like who's who's kind of a typical avatar for someone who's buying tonal? I think that would be useful information for people.

Yeah. Uh I would say um, I would say two groups of people. Uh the first thing I think that's really fascinating is the gender splits about 50-50, uh, which is pretty atypical for a weight room. Uh, and so I I think that's that's an important thing of note. But but when you just look at people's fitness lives, um, we really have two big groups of people that light up. The first one uh is people actually already exercise quite a bit. They exercise, they already before they buy tonal, they exercise twice a week uh or more. And and they're buying tonal either because they know they need to incorporate more strength training into their routine um or because they know that they do a little bit of strength training but really want to take it to the next level. Um the other group of people are people who uh at some point worked out a lot and now they aspire to work out two or more times a week, but uh they've become very sporadic. And and the reason they're sporadic is is family and work obligations. And for Tonal, it's 100% a convenient split. Uh and and I think those are those are an interesting group of people because those are people where uh uh even a personal trainer or a coach is too inconvenient for them. Uh if they have to go carve out time in their calendar to go meet with someone at a specific location, you've already asked too much of them. Right. And uh and you can't reach those people with traditional personal training. You you actually have to go remote if you want to reach them.

Right.

And that's it's a pretty big part of the market for us.

Yeah. And I um I mean this seemingly like two very valuable clientele, too. I mean, for fitness professionals, you know, people who already have the habit, they just need a little push, right? And accountability. And the big thing that, and anyone's been in the trenches long enough as a fitness professional knows that you know it's not necessarily the pro the program design is important, right? Not discrediting that, but getting in and helping people change the psychology, the the behaviors, the habits, right, that are have gotten to the point where they are now where they don't want to be. So, how do you start changing those things? That's a delicate process. That takes somebody who's actually, you know, working on mastering the craft. And this elevates you, you know, having something like this where, like, okay, it's all preloaded, go do the programs, and then you know, when we spend time together, we'll review your actual work. And this is how I'm playing it out in my mind. You know, we can review how your workouts are going, we can change and adapt. The programming there if we need to, but let's really talk about okay, well, what's going on in your life, like all the different lifestyle factors, and then how do we start, you know, building in layer by layer healthy habits that one year from now will completely change your life? And I think that's that's what most fitness professionals want to do. They get stuck in the, well, I need to sell X amount of private training sessions just to make, you know, make rent, right? And then they get stuck into these 60, 70 hour work weeks, and then they burn out, and then we lose good people, and then no one wants to get in the fitness industry anymore, right? Right. Yeah.

So and now there's no rent, no rent to cover because you're you're serving people who are, you know, have their own equipment, have their own space, and so you know, you're not you're not having to rent a facility or expect expect folks to come to you. Uh the other thing is with the motivation piece, uh, we get to help because we have we have all of this this data um that can really help with the story. So um we have you know after every workout, you get to see what your workout volume was. Uh after every uh workout, we we update your your holistic strength score, and so you get you get to see yourself getting stronger. Uh and so this is effectively proof of progress. Uh right right now for a lot of people, the the biggest proof of progress that they have access to is the scale. And we both know that's a terrible way to tell to tell someone uh to show someone whether or not they're making progress. Uh and in here we have a lot of other other metrics. And so when someone's working out and you know, on average, they're doing eight or nine thousand pounds of volume in a workout, and then you know, 10 weeks later they're doing 13,000 uh pounds of volume, uh, they feel good because they're watching this number tick up after every workout, right? Yeah. So it's for a lot of folks, it's just about giving them something they can, you know, you know, they can measure and see, see their progress with. Uh and the more tools we provide, I think the easier the job becomes for you know for coaches.

Um data. I'm glad you brought that up, right? Like that, I was just um I had a previous interview here with uh Ian Mulane, who does keepme.ai, and it's you know, it's um machine learning AI for retention for gyms, essentially, and put into a short sentence. But he's like, the data that we have is now just starting to be leveraged, right? And it was amazing to me. I'm like, well, you know, how much data are you collecting on people? He's like, we we can predict when people are gonna cancel months in advance. I was like, well, how? He's like, well, if you actually look at the data we're collecting, even the most basic things of where someone lives, they're you know, uh male, female, um, what neighborhood they live in, um, what their their frequency is, when they show up, all these, whether they have kids, we can predict a lot. I was like, I never thought about that way. Yeah, and that's just a that's like just kind of a pretty limited data points, right? There's not a whole lot of data, but there's still a lot of predictive power in it. What do you what do you see like with because you guys must be collecting a ton of data, right? How how is that how do you see the future of that playing out?

Uh I think it pushes physiology forward. So uh this this is this is the first uh first time fitness has been completely closed loop. And what I mean by that is, you know, I think that the trackers that we all have on our wrists, uh, they're observing, yeah, exactly. You all want to, they're observation devices. They they they collect data, uh, and then that's kind of where it ends. Uh and there's maybe a little bit of analysis, and if you're lucky, a little bit of recommendation. Um we actually take it all the way through compliance, where the user actually does what we said, and then we measure how they did relative to our recommendation. Uh, and so we're we're actually operating more in the realm of experimentation rather than pure observation, where we make a recommendation, they do it, we see how they did, and then we decide what they're gonna do next, right? Um, and so what that actually does is it it helps us push the science of physiology forward in terms of deciding how much weight people should lift and deciding what the best factors are to decide when someone's weight should should go up. Um is it is it power, is it range of motion, is it velocity? What is what is the tell that says that this is the right time to really bump someone's someone's weight up? And and today the science on it's limited, right? And so we're we're literally, you know, we've done we have over 100,000 workouts uh worth of data uh already already logged and anonymized, which I think might make us the largest physiology, like strength training physiology data set in history. Uh and and and and the data is just ticking up. And so uh and so it you know eventually I think we're we're gonna we're gonna get really good at physiology. The other thing is because it's a digital weight machine and we can change the weight dynamically, like we have a spotter built in, and if it sees you struggling, it'll adjust the weight to help you finish your last few reps. And so much so that we we now have two flavors of the spotter, uh, and we're talking about making even more. But uh a bunch of our um uh our our coaches were in here the other day and they've been working on something called um accommodating resistance, um, or basically smart reps, where we actually change the weight throughout your rep to match your um your range of motion and the the biomechanics. Think of a bicep curl at the different different angles. You you actually want different weight uh in order to maximize load on your muscle. Okay, you know what I'm talking about. Anyone who wants to school knows what I'm talking about. And so, you know, they they were they're they've been building these modes, and I was just playing with uh with a bunch, they were demoing a bunch of them to me the other day, and I I said, you know, I said, what is you know, um is this proven to be effective? And they're like, Ali, it's never been done before. Like we're gonna be the ones who we're gonna be the ones who prove it.

Yeah.

Right. And so I I think I think we are pushing the physiology science forward. Um, I think also on the psychology side, like the the same types of things that you were just talking about with gym memberships, we actually um for about four weeks in, we can we can predict how much someone is going to work out in the whole next year. Uh we can tell how sporadic and consistent they're gonna be. Like we have a bunch of correlations where we can tell within like four weeks of just of just behavior, how often do they work out and for how long and what time of day? Uh, we can tell whether they're the types of person, type of person who's just gonna be like military consistent or the type of person who's gonna be really sporadic, who's gonna need a lot of like motivation and push notifications and uh and actually in some cases phone calls to keep them keep them working out. Uh you call people? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We do. Do you ever call people? Do you ever do be like, does anyone ever pick up the phone be like, hey, it's Ollie from Tonal, uh, the CEO?

I I have never called someone because they weren't working out. I've called people for other reasons. Yeah, sure. Uh yeah, yeah. I definitely I've I definitely I probably talk to at least the customer a week minimum. Uh and so yeah, I do I do call people and I'm I'm active in our on our online member communities. Uh but no, I've never I think that would be kind of uh maybe maybe intimidating. Like hi, founder is CEO tunnel. I noticed that you haven't worked out in the last week. What's going on? Uh but we do have people here who do call people when they when they miss workouts. And and it's because at the end of the day, like I I believe this is the greatest piece of business comment ever created. Uh, and if someone has it on their wall and they're not using it, I feel bad. I'm like, this is you know, you gotta use this thing, you know.

Yeah. That's cool, man. I I didn't know you guys did that. I mean that that brings it to a whole level. So yeah, I'm curious too, because you created this for a very specific reason. I mean, you everyone can go listen to your story on our previous podcast interview, but you know, your journey and then you want to help more people and make an impact and all that, and and and it's working, and it's your primary goal was to get this out into the world, right? Just a better, a better mousetrap for fitness. Kind of like along the lines of data, has there been any other like unexpected things that have come about from the technology? Like things you're like, well, I never would have thought that happened, but here we are.

Um there there's a there's a few things happening that we we we didn't expect. And so, you know, we we saw them on our website and they're they were intended for consumer use, but we've um we've had personal trainers buy them and just use them to train people in their own spaces. Um this is actually uh a gross violation of our terms of service, but we we found that someone had had bought a bunch of them and was renting them out by the hour. Uh and we're like we looked at each other and we're like, well, what should we do with this? This is not not what we planned for, but it's it's interesting, right? And uh and so we we we called them up and we went over there and and had a chat. Uh and you know, I I think we we still have to decide where this goes, where that goes ultimately, but that was surprising. Um I think the other thing that was was surprising is just the um the variety of outcomes we've been able to drive. Uh we if you if you asked me, you know, the day I launched this product um with the team over here, uh how are you guys thinking about back pain? Uh I would have basically said, look, we are focused on core fitness, just like the core the core of fitness and people who are looking to strength train and get stronger and get lean. Uh and that getting into back pain is a complex thing. If someone has you know some sort of muscleskeletal pain or something like that, it's complex and and you know we're not sure we're ready to tackle that yet. Except we actually have people emailing us saying that that they bought tonal, they've been um just following our regular workout programs, and because their back and their core has gotten stronger, uh back pain that they've had their entire life has gone away. Uh and I think that's something we never we never expected. We never expected the impact to be to be as broad. Uh we thought we were just gonna help people strengthen. We didn't realize we were gonna be addressing so much back pain, knee pain, shoulder pain. Uh, and that's uh that that's very, very powerful, right? And the deep before I dig into that, I realize one in two Americans uh suffers from sort of some sort of muscle-skeletal pain. And it's it's something in terms of like me moving the needle on health in America, it's it's something I'm starting to become a lot more passionate about the more I read about it, the more I learn.

Yes, I 100% agree. I and in fact, after this, I have a meeting about bringing um a product to market where you know it's not about fat loss, it's not about this, it's about pain. You know, how do I how do I get out of pain? Whether it be, and I'm 43 now, man. Like I didn't think I've I've lived knock on wood, I've had a pretty injury, you know, minor sports injuries. I always joke, I only have had one injury, it just keeps moving around, but nothing big, you know, no broken bones, no surgery or anything like that. Um, but now at 43, I'm starting to notice that my my big focus is just staying out of pain and being active. And like, you know, my knee, my knee aches now, right? That never happened before. My back gets that never happened before. And I think there's a lot of people out there who, especially as our life spans get longer. Well, you know, they traditionally they have been getting longer until recent generations, right? Right. We want to live a longer, fuller life. And weight loss is how it's it's always we've always started with weight loss in the fitness industry, but I think we can start looking at like that statistic you said one and two. Crazy, right? People are in pain, right? Live center styles. Things we're not moving the way we're supposed to move. And you know, you look at someone like um Dr. Sean Pastouche at Active Life Rx, and he's his whole business is around teaching coaches how to get people out of pain, right? Good man of foundation training, getting people out of pain in a better function. Um, I think that I mean, and then I look at your product, and as you were talking, I was like, oh, physical therapy, right? Totally. If anyone's ever gone physical therapy, you know the stuff you do. So yeah, it's like you don't need someone watching you to do that. You know, it's a lot that's just prescribed the right thing, you do it.

You you sort of do and you don't. So the biggest challenge with the physical therapy market is compliance. Yes, right. You you don't someone you don't need someone to watch you doing it, you just need someone to make sure you did it. And uh guilty over here, too. Total will account your reps, right? Uh and and and on the pain side, you know, I think for most Americans, when you tell them, you know, you need to exercise, their mind goes to cardio, right? And cardio doesn't make pain better, right? If anything, it could make it worse. Uh and so that's that's kind of the the power, the power of just just making people stronger. Because if you make them strong in the first place, you might actually prevent onset. And I think that's really where you want to be. You you you never want them to get to a place where they have pain, you just want them to be strong enough uh that that it never manifests in the first place.

Yeah.

Right.

What patents do you guys have on this thing? I mean, and there's so many cool you know features what you have. I mean, the the electromagnetic resistance is is crazy cool. Is that one of the patents that you guys have?

Yes. So we we've um we filed um we filed over 20 patents uh to date, and some of it is on the core electromagnetics, some of it is on the advanced blade modes of like the spotting and the eccentric overload chains. Um uh some of it is on uh on the AI uh and the way it integrates into the system and into the videos. Um our videos are actually uh adaptive. The pacing of the video changes, the instructions that you hear change to each person. Uh and so there's a lot of patents in the way that that happens. Uh and then uh the joints, right? So tonal is the most compact joint training machine, and we we literally had to reinvent um the joint, so the shoulder joint, which allows you to move in three degrees of freedom. Uh, there's a lot of uh invention that happened in in that joint on Tonal. Uh and uh and overall the way the machine is set up and the way the arms stow. So we have pounds pretty much cover all of it that we that we filed, and um a number of them have already issued, including the the most core one. Like if you ask me, L what of the 20 pounds, what is the one, what is the one that like is the most important? That one, that one's already issued. Uh, and so I think that's that's pretty powerful for us.

Yeah, it really is. I mean, I I think about the um, you know, being a guy who loves the iron game too. I seeing what or I haven't used this yet, right? I gotta get I first of all I gotta get my hands on it. But the the the way you describe electromagnetic resistance and all the favorable aspects of it, I mean that alone, and then you top it off with everything else that you guys do with them with the machine itself, that's that's a crazy push forward.

It really is. It is because it's um it's the first time that you can control resistance instantaneously. Uh we we can literally with the click of a button, we can go from zero to 200 pounds. You click the button again, it'll go from 200 back to zero. Uh and uh it allows, you know, it just allows you to do things that you couldn't do. So we have a mode that emulates bands, so it has that rubbery feel to it. Uh and it's just it's just us knowing that as you pull further, we're just gonna crank the weight up linearly and then crank it back down. And it feels like like forget the math happening behind the scenes, like if you close your eyes, it feels like you're pulling on a rubber band, right? Uh and and it's just it's this dynamic resistance is is important. When people touch tonal for the first time, the things that they say is uh it feels like a real weight machine, it's heavier than I expected, it's smoother than I expected. Uh, and and I think I think the the the interesting kind of nuance there is people look at tonal because it's a small machine and it's really sleek. I think they tend to underestimate it. They tend to assume that this is gonna be a little bit like a toy, uh, and they don't realize how much like advanced core technology is is in this thing, making it do what it does. Uh it's uh it's it's uh it's it feels I mean in some ways it feels like science fiction, right? Um but it's not, it's real, it's actually like it's on the market, people have it. Uh I work out on it every day. It's it's uh it's it's it's it's incredible. It really is. Uh and you know, and I I'd love to take take credit for it, but you know, we have well over a hundred people here who have been working on this for over three years, right? Uh and it took like three and a half years just to get the product out to market. And we have electromagnetics experts and mechanical engineers and people who worked in aerospace, and just like it it took some real, you know, some real brain power to to make this thing happen.

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. What with your workouts, what are they? Are they an hour, 20, 30 minutes?

How do you how do you think that's a good thing? So I um uh I tend to follow workouts by one of our coaches, Coach Jackson, uh, who focuses a lot on uh on hypertrophy. Uh so the types of programs that he runs are like four weeks to fat loss, burn and build. Um he's also the one who just released his program I mentioned earlier called Go Big and Go Home. But uh I tend to follow his and his his workouts are are nominally programmed to be 40 minutes long, but they take me an hour to get there. Uh and and like I said, the system is is adaptive, and so if you need more time, you'll kind of stretch things out. Uh, but it it takes me, you know, it takes me a while because they're they're very intense programs. Yeah. Um yeah. Typically I'm pushing like 18,000 pounds of uh of volume uh in each workout. Wow. Which which is quite a bit. It's on the higher end of what our system system typically prescribes.

Yeah, I feel like I don't even know I don't even know how to relate to that metric. Yeah, I'm like, well, I don't think anybody does.

It's a new metric for well, I've um I I actually met some personal trainers uh maybe five years ago who were who were tracking volume. They just do reps times weight and they'd add it up, and it was just their way of making sure that that every workout was about right size. And so on a day where you're doing a lot of heavy legs, um, maybe it'll go lighter on the upper body or or what have you. So it's just a good way to know, like when you're sitting down programming on paper, how do you know if you've you've created workouts where like your Tuesdays are really heavy and your Thursdays are are a little bit too light? Yeah.

So well, it's it's been, I mean, obviously volume's been around for a long time, but it's been very rarely applied to. I mean, I when I think of volume, I think of expertly coached athletes, right? Or people who you know, when you look at periodization and and total volume and intensity and all those things that go into really good periodization, but for the general population, I mean it volume is just isn't it if you're I mean a fitness professional artist myself, it's not as important to track as all the things you could be doing. The volume is like it's it's it's not it's not out there, but to have it so easily accessible through what you do.

Now it becomes a thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like I mean a good example of steps, right? No one, no one ever tracked their steps, and now everyone, everyone has a sense of how many steps they take a day. Yeah, right. And you can tell whether sorry? Do you have a step? Oh, do I have uh I do like 15,000 a day. Whoa. Well, I walk I walk to and from work, so uh yeah, it that it adds up.

It's it's interesting. I mean you you're I'm I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about like the the all the possible applications for electromagnetic resistance and you know all the things. You must do you does your mind just spin out of control sometimes and like what what this could be moving forward? Like this could be implanted in the gym of the future, right? Yeah, yes. I mean already is already doing it against your policy, but they're doing it.

Yeah, those those walks I I do daydream a lot about kind of the possibilities. Uh, but I'm also responsible for marketing, manufacturing, um, software development. Uh, you know, uh we run a production studio uh in down in Los Angeles. So there's there's also a lot of other other things on my mind. Uh and so I'm thinking about a lot all the time.

Yeah, yeah, I bet.

Yeah.

I mean, I I just think about like, you know, applying to some some some sort of like barbell training, you know, um similarity where people can, you know, do really have but the the safety of it, right? I mean, you know, if you're going for if you're pushing for a one re max on your back squat, you know, you gotta have spotters or you know, really good rig, right? Especially if you're lifting heavy, but this could eliminate all that, could be incredibly safe.

Just like, yeah, for sure, for sure. Even even with the barbell, we've we've actually, you know, now that it's digital, we have some safety mode. So uh we we actually think require you to keep the bar relatively um level. Uh and if your bar ever gets tilted either intentionally or unintentionally, we we'll cut we'll cut the weight. Uh and so we we put that in because you know we've we've all seen those gym fail videos of people on a bench with the bar across their chest, and it's just too much weight for them. And now we just have a really easy way, just simple twist to to tilt the bar, and you can dump the with bait. Uh and it's super, super powerful.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I've seen those gym fails in person.

So yeah, you've you've probably been there to be also be a lot.

So yeah, I think I've been a gym fail. Um what uh so you guys are launching launching the opportunity to create workouts within the total. Um I'm curious, and from a programming standpoint, is it gonna be like just like using any other programming software, or what what's the interface gonna be gonna look like?

Uh we we have a mobile app, and so you you go on our mobile app and you just choose the exercises that you want, uh, and you're you're arranging them into super blocks. Uh so like a block one, block two, how many were how many cycles do you want to do on the super block? So how many sets total, and then you set rep targets for each exercise. We also have the ability to insert um mandated rest where like a we'll have a rest timer. Uh, and um, and then the weights are automatically chosen for you. They're they're computed as a combination of how strong we believe you are and how many reps you've you've chosen, and we'll automatically set that up. We also just recently released um a smarter spotter. Uh so I was telling you earlier we have like two flavors of the spotter. One is one is a spotter, which is kind of like a buddy just helping you out at the gym, and the other one is really more intended for burnout sets, so like a you know, like a drop set uh where you can just keep going all the way down to zero. So we have we have that burnout mode. Uh and we're just we're just gonna keep keep adding more stuff. Uh our weight recommendation engine gets literally smarter every month uh as we as we just crunch more data and tune the algorithms. And uh and we just uh released health Apple Health Kit integration. Um so now through our mobile app, we can get a broader view of what you're doing in your life. And and the the reason we did that is the idea is that data is going to feed into our our weight recommendation engine. So we can make more intelligent recommendations for folks based on knowing if they didn't sleep last night or if they're at a certain point in their menstrual cycle or or whatever whatever indications we have will will feed into it as as well. Or if we just ran a marathon. Right.

So it's so damn smart.

It's it's it's endless right. It's just endless what you can do. And so it's just we have this like long like I think this list that goes for years and we're just going to keep doing the most important thing we can every single month to just make it smarter.

Yeah I mean you look at like Amazon right it started as an online bookstore. Yeah it's everything right yeah like tonal can be that like it can it it literally there's so much there's so many spin-offs possible with what you do. It's it's really must be a really cool place to look so what is here's the big question at the end of the day for you right what is what does success look like for tonal right what what's what's the end goal for you for tonal what what does that look like?

So I I think you know we we started we kind of started on the heels of fitness trend which was this idea of in-home connected fitness I think we actually end a little bit closer to healthcare because with strength training you can move the needle on diabetes hypertension pain uh you know obesity right all of these things that that ultimately like you you make people more fit but but the ultimate outcomes are bigger and so for me like how do I know success it's when you're actually seeing the needle move on on health in America. We think that our target market for this product is 45 million households uh which is which is pretty pretty massive that's a pretty big uh chunk of the US population uh and and I think with you know with that we we really do have the ability to to move the needle uh and that's you know that's why we we get up and so so get up every day and so you know having people say they got a great workout is is wonderful but when they tell us that you know they actually achieved their weight loss goal or they actually have been able to manage pain uh those are the things that get us really really excited.

Yeah yeah I mean you have all the tools you need to to do that and that's um it's great to hear man I'm I'm excited that um you know you having such a great opportunity to make an impact have a good head on your shoulders and a good heart in the direction you guys are going with it. So that's that's good. Yeah you're a good guy. You're a good one the good guys. Yeah man it's awesome. Appreciate that we're we're really excited really really excited. Yeah man um well right on Ali I guess uh you know if people want to get a hold of you um you know is there is there any place they want to go if they want to get involved in this or if trainers want to get involved in the updates where where do people go?

So most most of the information is available on tonal.com. Okay. Uh so that's that's just kind of the the hub the hub for everything. Uh we have a number of online uh Facebook communities uh people often reach out to me directly on LinkedIn uh if they want to send me messages and it's not uncommon that people will uh will email uh support asking that a message be relayed to me uh and those messages do do get relayed to me I um I don't respond to all of them because a lot of times they're the things that um are like especially like international distribution and we're just not ready for that kind of stuff and we get so many of those requests if I reply to everyone it would be a full-time job. But we we do get I do have a lot of people reaching out and and it's just it's a it's a really engaged community uh the this fitness world and and I'm loving it.

Yeah yeah well you're in um I mean it to it's put lightly that you're in a dynamic situation right things are yeah it's a bit of an understatement yeah every time I talk to you it's like so fast yeah it's moving so fast it's awesome it couldn't happen to a better guy. Well Ollie thanks again for coming on and sharing your time I know it's valuable and uh appreciate the updates.

Cool thank you so much Eric always a pleasure thanks for having me on the show and um looking forward to uh to chatting with you more.

Yeah man keep up the great work thanks hey fitness fans don't leave yet it's your host Eric Malzone and I have a quick favor to ask actually three favors. So number one if you're a fan of our show I ask you to do something that takes under three minutes. Go to iTunes please and subscribe to our show. Please please please it means so much to us it's so important and then give us a favorable review. We would really really appreciate it and uh I can't tell you how much it means it helps us out. So I know it takes two minutes of your day and uh it means a lot to us. So please do that. Number two, go to our YouTube channel or fitness marketing alliance and uh please subscribe to our YouTube channel there. Number three, if you like this episode or any of the episodes that we've released share it on social. That's huge. That's a big deal for us. And when we put a lot of work into these episodes uh trying to give you great actionable content uh for the fitness industry so that would mean a lot and that's it so we have some big plans coming up for this show I'll be talking about that in the next couple episodes but thank you so much for listening it means so much and uh if you have any questions please reach out to me I'd love to hear from everybody. Eric E R I C at fitnessmarketingalliance.com