Forrest Smith - Kineon & An Introduction to Red Light Therapies

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[00:02:17] dot I O. Well we're live. For Smith, man. Welcome to the future of fitness.

[00:02:26] Thank you for having me here. I really appreciate the opportunity to come and talk

[00:02:29] to you and your followers. Yeah, it's a red light. Like as we were just chatting, I'm

[00:02:35] generally so curious about it. I think it's not talked about. I mean, given what I've

[00:02:40] researched and I was telling you, I just started using a little bit with the red light

[00:02:44] panel. So I'm trying to, you know, figuring out for myself and you know, N equals

[00:02:49] one sample size over here. But you know, you obviously live in that world. You're a

[00:02:53] believer in the technology, what you guys are doing at your company. It seems really

[00:02:57] exciting. And yeah, so anyway, I'm going to stop talking and let's get into you.

[00:03:02] Force may just give us a little bit of your background. You know how you got to

[00:03:04] be where you are and the company and then we'll take it from there.

[00:03:09] My personal background has been starting startup since I was about 20 or 21. And

[00:03:15] those have kind of gotten started and build it and then didn't exit in most

[00:03:20] cases. But this one is actually really a little bit closer to home for us because

[00:03:25] having done that a few cycles, my partner and I actually met by way of talking about

[00:03:30] the same type of thing on different sides of the planet. And so what we both

[00:03:35] wanted to do was build a business that was less focused on the commercial outcome

[00:03:39] and more on the systemic impact where we can come in and have a real meaningful

[00:03:44] impact on not just our own internal stakeholders, but on kind of the systemic

[00:03:48] outcomes for health and wellness for a larger number of people. And we spent our first two

[00:03:54] months together sitting down and going through and talking about how can we do

[00:03:57] that in a way that still holds us accountable. And so what has come down

[00:04:01] to in the end for us, which is our kind of true north, our compass as a

[00:04:05] company for every decision that we make is our mission is to increase the

[00:04:09] quality of life for the largest number of people we can in the most

[00:04:12] measurable way we can. And you know, our first product is a neuromuscular

[00:04:16] pain inflammation device that's working to do just that. So there's

[00:04:20] when we launched the company, there was really no laser therapy devices

[00:04:25] available outside of clinical settings. And I spent a ton of time in the medical

[00:04:31] literature kind of reading behind whether it's health and performance or metabolic

[00:04:35] modeling, really things that are going to be kind of high leverage spins from

[00:04:40] a research standpoint and that you can apply whether it's your training or diet or

[00:04:45] recovery modalities, etc. And one of the ones that we'd seen really powerful

[00:04:50] data around was laser therapy, but it was very limited in what was available

[00:04:54] from a product standpoint. And I, you know, the, there's some very good

[00:04:57] clinical device manufacturers out there like Thor Laser, James Carroll's

[00:05:01] done a great job getting these out there and they're in, you know, many

[00:05:05] different NFL facilities or clinical level applications, but they're

[00:05:10] $30,000. And you know, our assumption was that if people are using

[00:05:15] pharmaceuticals to treat their pain and inflammation right now, A, it's

[00:05:19] because they don't know how damaging those pharmaceuticals are to their

[00:05:23] physiology. There needs to be an education around this, but B, we can

[00:05:28] actually make a systemic impact and give them an alternative. If we can

[00:05:32] reduce the price, reduce the size, take these big desktop devices and

[00:05:37] make it into something that's battery driven and wearable so that people

[00:05:40] can build habits on a day-to-day basis around reducing the pain and

[00:05:43] inflammation in their joints. And, you know, it's, so our first product

[00:05:49] has been essentially around that. How do we reduce friction points

[00:05:54] for people? How do we reduce cost? And how do we provide an alternative

[00:05:58] to things again, that in line with our mission where there's a big gap

[00:06:01] between the technology that exists and what's been adopted and the

[00:06:05] education piece around that? Awesome. How do you say the name of your

[00:06:08] company? How do you pronounce it? Kenyon. It's from the Greek for movement.

[00:06:13] Oh, really? Oh, cool. I love that. That's cool. Can you maybe give us

[00:06:17] a little bit of history into red light therapy, laser therapy, stuff

[00:06:21] like that? Like how long has it been around? You know, it's always

[00:06:24] like early adopters tend to be biohackers, right? For lack of a

[00:06:27] better term in that. So maybe give us a kind of a history and then we

[00:06:30] can get into exactly what you guys are doing. Absolutely. So there's

[00:06:34] really good data from ages ago, hundreds of years ago on light and

[00:06:38] how light affects things like seasonal affective disorder and

[00:06:42] people's moods. So we've always kind of known that there are,

[00:06:46] we always had the, I think from a scientific standpoint, had the idea

[00:06:48] that there are photo acceptors in our body that are triggering

[00:06:51] different signaling pathways from light. One of the things that's not

[00:06:55] been there until more recently is the emitters. And so really you

[00:07:01] didn't see kind of the modern version of this coming around until about

[00:07:05] the 1950s with the first ruby red laser. And when they had that,

[00:07:10] they did actually start doing some testing on a very limited number

[00:07:14] of people, but saw some positive benefits out of it. But nothing

[00:07:17] really happened to move that forward until the 80s when you saw

[00:07:22] Whalen and the NASA group starting to do testing in space around,

[00:07:28] it started originally around testing red and infrared lights relative

[00:07:32] to plants. So can we grow these plants in space and what kind of

[00:07:36] wavelengths are going to drive better outcomes from plant growth?

[00:07:40] And one of the things they noticed was the kind of just anecdotally

[00:07:43] as they were running these tests was that the astronauts who were

[00:07:47] running them had biomarkers that they were tracking that came

[00:07:52] back healthier than the ones who weren't. And so they kind of

[00:07:56] took that anecdotal piece and dove into it and started doing human

[00:07:59] testing with lasers and light therapy. And I think one of the

[00:08:03] things that we've seen more recently is that with the advent of solid

[00:08:08] state LED lighting, lasers have traditionally been

[00:08:12] more sophisticated, larger, more expensive. And because of that less

[00:08:17] accessible from a device stand, solid state or digital lighting,

[00:08:21] more accessible from a manufacturing and a cost standpoint.

[00:08:24] But there are some limitations relative to what they can do from a

[00:08:27] penetration and a dosing profile. So we've spent really the

[00:08:32] last five years and tens of thousands of hours with our team

[00:08:35] digging into that there's currently around 7,000 medical trials

[00:08:41] on photobiomodulation or light therapy.

[00:08:44] And there's a really good amount of data around

[00:08:47] the dosing. And one of the key outcome drivers

[00:08:51] is how you dose. How do you deliver the correct number of photons to the

[00:08:55] correct photo acceptors at the correct depth of tissue?

[00:08:58] And again this is something where it's kind of developed from the 80s with the

[00:09:02] NASA testing and ongoing physiological trials from a

[00:09:06] medical standpoint into where we have a much more

[00:09:10] grounded or a much better grounding and kind of foundational understanding

[00:09:14] of what these triggers are and what are mediating these effects

[00:09:17] from a pain reduction, from an inflammation reduction,

[00:09:21] from a soft tissue regrowth standpoint. There's just really a lot

[00:09:27] of downstream effects that are triggered by this

[00:09:30] and the better you understand the dosing the more effectively you

[00:09:33] can deliver those. So with what you guys do for us I

[00:09:37] mean is it, forgive my naivety here but

[00:09:41] like is it red light therapy? Is it laser therapy? Is there a difference?

[00:09:46] What specifically do you guys do? That's a great question.

[00:09:49] So there's a number of different terms in the medical literature even.

[00:09:54] And so what happened around I believe 2015-2016 is they tried to

[00:09:59] consolidate a lot of these terms into a kind of more of an umbrella term

[00:10:03] which is photobiomodulation. So photolight

[00:10:06] bio kind of your physiology and modulation changing. So how are we

[00:10:09] changing your physiology with light? Before this,

[00:10:12] this was separated into LLLT, so low level laser therapy,

[00:10:16] RLT, red light therapy. There's a number of different kind of subcategories

[00:10:21] for this but essentially right now we kind of

[00:10:24] roll everything under photobiomodulation. We've found that

[00:10:29] using laser therapy for treating internal tissue so that the soft

[00:10:33] tissue benefits and kind of the internal

[00:10:36] tissue treatments that we make for reducing pain and inflammation

[00:10:42] are much better suited to lasers and infrared and a couple of different

[00:10:46] wavelengths of infrared that allow us to penetrate more

[00:10:50] effectively. But one of the things that we spend a lot of time on is

[00:10:53] when we came in we started developing our product, even the clinical level

[00:10:57] there was a gap between the engineering side and the physiology or

[00:11:01] medical side relative to the metrics that you're

[00:11:06] measuring for kind of power levels. And so

[00:11:09] everybody was using different terms, it's very heterogeneous from a

[00:11:13] comparison standpoint. So one of the things we've seen that

[00:11:16] the research side has been doing is trying to move more towards homogenous

[00:11:20] metrics for this but the metrics that are being used for this are very

[00:11:25] broad. So as an example, irradiance and power density are two commonly used

[00:11:31] metrics for measuring how much power is being delivered optically. These

[00:11:37] are interesting but there's a number of different ways you could do

[00:11:40] those. And so as an example with our products, we've had with our first

[00:11:44] our products are modular and wearable. So with our first modules we had

[00:11:48] slightly more powerful lasers and the same amount of power coming out

[00:11:52] totally but we've split this into smaller

[00:11:55] lasers now and the outcomes that we had from our observation

[00:11:59] studies were you know substantially I want to say high

[00:12:03] 20s, low 30 percent better from an inflammation reduction. So

[00:12:07] even within the given metrics that are in the scientific community right now we

[00:12:11] felt that there was a gap that we could fill for how photons are delivered to

[00:12:17] the photo acceptors directly. And so we've spent a lot of our time kind of

[00:12:19] going back in and using things like Monte Carlo models from a

[00:12:22] mathematical standpoint for modeling and then baselining in

[00:12:27] real life with metrics like nitric oxides.

[00:12:30] Here nitric oxide is something that we use quite frequently for kind

[00:12:33] of baselining what we expect from our mathematical models from a

[00:12:37] the photo acceptor trigger for signaling versus what's like what are we

[00:12:41] expecting and what's happening in real life. And if we're wrong why are we

[00:12:44] wrong? Let's go let's go fix these problems. And so

[00:12:47] again I don't we have not seen other photobio modulation

[00:12:51] device manufacturers modeling the delivery of photons

[00:12:55] to that level of I guess resolution or care. But for us this is

[00:13:02] what drives the outcomes and so it's really worth it from a time standpoint

[00:13:06] to invest our medical and technical teams into

[00:13:09] building these models and then dialing them in so that we're improving

[00:13:12] these outcomes over time. Got it okay so explain it to me

[00:13:17] the layperson of Sybilton right? So why should I be looking at your

[00:13:23] products your services red light photo modulation as a category like

[00:13:27] what are the benefits you know and you know one of these things I'm

[00:13:30] curious about too is I feel like people love immediate gratification with

[00:13:35] with their you know when they invest in stuff like this like they want to

[00:13:37] feel you know you get a uh a theragun or a hyper ice you

[00:13:41] know you know like you feel it right away

[00:13:44] right like it's it's immediate but this stuff so far from my experience

[00:13:48] it's it's not quite so immediate but maybe it is for you so

[00:13:51] yeah explain in layperson terms like what are the benefits here why

[00:13:54] should people be paying attention to this and then

[00:13:57] yeah you know how how sticky is it from a consumer standpoint?

[00:14:01] I think that makes makes great sense so one of the things that I think

[00:14:05] works best to kind of set the context for this

[00:14:08] is comparing it with existing treatment modalities so two of the

[00:14:14] things that if you go to your doctor there's it's one of the things

[00:14:16] that we fight on a daily basis is inertia

[00:14:18] and it's uh it's kind of swimming against the tide but hoping that we

[00:14:21] can get enough people swimming against the tide that we can turn the tide if

[00:14:23] that makes sense but one of the things that we've noticed

[00:14:26] is medical and particularly with our older cohorts who have things like

[00:14:29] osteoarthritis where you have ongoing chronic pain and inflammation

[00:14:33] that are driving degradation of tissue the gold standard for this for me a

[00:14:38] medical community treatment right now is ice

[00:14:41] and NSAIDs and I you know we we find this

[00:14:45] very irresponsible uh in general because the NSAIDs do a couple of things

[00:14:50] one which is directly at odds with what you'd like to do if you're

[00:14:53] taking them for chronic pain in your knee joints or in

[00:14:57] your shoulder joints is increase the degradation rate of

[00:15:01] the the actual joint over time which is you know it kind of seems like this

[00:15:05] is that that should that should be a

[00:15:08] red flag just a hey this might decrease the the

[00:15:12] pain for me short term but longer term this is going to to cause

[00:15:15] my my joints to degrade more rapidly but uh to answer your

[00:15:20] question more directly the if people are taking NSAIDs the

[00:15:24] laser therapy is more effective uh there's been a number of head-to-head

[00:15:27] studies comparing NSAIDs and and pain inflammation

[00:15:31] pharmaceuticals for particularly for inflammation

[00:15:36] driven pain so if you have something where there's a

[00:15:39] a mechanical kind of drive for the pain pinched nerve

[00:15:43] uh the light's not going to necessarily help the pinched nerve

[00:15:46] but that pinched nerve causes a huge amount of

[00:15:49] tissue degradation around it by having so much inflammation by triggering

[00:15:52] inflammation and that's really where we we can

[00:15:54] actually offer uh help so getting people out of

[00:15:58] pain and inflammation uh in a in a much uh faster but also

[00:16:03] a much longer term and more health beneficial way

[00:16:06] so if you're if you're able to uh you know compare these one-on-one and

[00:16:10] there's some very good studies i'm happy to to kind of shoot those over

[00:16:12] as well if you have for example knee osteoarthritis

[00:16:15] your knee tissue your cartilage in your knees is degrading faster than it

[00:16:19] would otherwise you have a homeostatic uh balance in your

[00:16:23] knees for how fast you're growing this tissue versus how fast it's

[00:16:27] degrading if you have inflammation in that

[00:16:29] synovial fluid around this uh this tissue then the

[00:16:34] degradation increases speed and your regrowth decreases speed

[00:16:37] and so you just start losing this soft tissue laser therapy actually

[00:16:41] reverses that process so by removing the inflammation uh in the

[00:16:44] first two to three days we we see from blood draws roughly 80

[00:16:48] percent of the inflammation is reduced and what's not reduced is

[00:16:51] actually acute inflammation that's helpful

[00:16:54] that's beneficial to regrowth so you know the

[00:16:57] the the and we can we can dizen if you like on on a kind of acute versus

[00:17:00] chronic inflammation but the long story short is that this

[00:17:03] is this is an investment in being able to regrow tissue by

[00:17:07] increasing the rate of proliferation for chondroblasts which are the

[00:17:11] fast front edge uh fast growing front edge cells of your

[00:17:15] soft tissue like cartilage or ligaments and by by decreasing inflammation

[00:17:19] dramatically uh and that's not something that pharmaceuticals do

[00:17:23] and it really uh again our our hope for this was to be able

[00:17:27] to reduce the price of laser therapy devices

[00:17:31] and also make them more sticky by making them

[00:17:35] have less friction points so we've made it so you don't have to have a

[00:17:38] big laser setup on your desk on your desktop we've been

[00:17:42] very lucky in the technology we've been able to adopt for this vertical cavity

[00:17:45] surface emission lasers have made a huge leap in reducing cost and

[00:17:50] size of lasers over the past five years and we've

[00:17:53] been very lucky to be able to adopt those and bring them into something

[00:17:56] that is now wearable and they can actually treat

[00:17:59] this internal tissue more effectively and so

[00:18:01] our assumption is that if people are educated about the the issue and this

[00:18:05] data is put in front of them directly and you can say you know you're

[00:18:09] growing your knees or your your joint tissue is going to degrade if you

[00:18:13] start if you keep taking these NSAIDs

[00:18:15] but there's a solution that can reduce the pain inflammation and actually

[00:18:17] help you with regrowth that they're going to make uh rational

[00:18:21] decisions and invest in their long-term health awesome so

[00:18:25] let's maybe boil it down to like a granular example my knees

[00:18:28] right my knees take a beating i ski hard i ski a lot

[00:18:32] when i'm not skiing i'm you know hiking biking

[00:18:35] you know with a pack all kinds of stuff stuff that you know

[00:18:38] as a 47 year old i know the first thing it's going to go is going to be

[00:18:41] my knees it's not bad yet but is that like if i you

[00:18:45] know instead of after a long day in my eat my

[00:18:48] knees are achy is this something instead of like you know an ice pack

[00:18:51] and maybe an anvil i would revert to

[00:18:54] this and this would be a much better and effective option like how

[00:18:56] how would those two things compare in the actual you know short-term and

[00:19:00] long-term health of my joints it's it's what we the the analogy we

[00:19:04] use for this is uh it's it's putting out the fire in the

[00:19:07] kitchen versus taking the batteries out of your fire alarm

[00:19:10] if you're taking NSAIDs you're essentially taking the batteries out of

[00:19:13] the fire alarm your kitchen's still on fire like your your knees

[00:19:16] they may not hurt as bad but it's it's you know your your the house is

[00:19:19] still burning down and so what we'd love to be able to do is

[00:19:21] say hey guys leave let it let it beep it's for now it takes a little

[00:19:25] while you know yeah to your earlier point

[00:19:27] we see around larger joints that it takes two to three weeks for people to

[00:19:31] start seeing kind of the meaningful what we see on average is and i need to

[00:19:35] reference our data for the latest but i in in orders of

[00:19:39] magnitude terms seven out of ten in pain for the knees going down to

[00:19:43] about a three over two to three weeks for people who've been in severe

[00:19:47] chronic pain for the the joints the longer term version of that though

[00:19:50] is that you're actually regrowing the cartilage

[00:19:52] and helping yourself build better tissue helping yourself build

[00:19:56] longer lasting joints and and making an investment in being able to

[00:20:00] to move functionally longer because when you have

[00:20:04] uh inflammation is a terrible scourge in our bodies

[00:20:07] and it doesn't stay local it's you know if you've had

[00:20:10] uh pounding your knees or knee injuries from skiing or from

[00:20:14] football uh or from you know tennis or whatever whatever sport

[00:20:18] uh i i've done the same thing grappling i've torn my meniscus and i

[00:20:21] i've had long-term chronic inflammation in the knee

[00:20:26] that i i couldn't deal with because it just wasn't anything out there

[00:20:29] to be able to really treat that you now have an option for being able to

[00:20:32] reduce that inflammation and again that's not just impacting

[00:20:36] that local joint tissue one of the things that we've seen

[00:20:39] coming out of the literature and again it's it's it's really not commonly

[00:20:42] known uh is that this inflammation actually has

[00:20:46] systemic so regional and systemic level uh impacts as well

[00:20:50] and so as an example one of the things that we've been doing with

[00:20:52] some nfl players that we work with is

[00:20:54] measuring those who've had acl and acl tear and acl surgery

[00:20:59] and you'll see the tissue in the quad above that

[00:21:02] uh be 1.5 to 2 degrees colder even five or six years after the injury

[00:21:07] and they've worked they've rehabbed it and they've done their work to make

[00:21:10] this happen but what's happening is that inflammation is trickling out of

[00:21:13] the knee and impairing the blood delivery in

[00:21:16] that in that region and the second piece of

[00:21:19] this that's even scarier is 10 years on there was a very

[00:21:23] large study on nfl players we didn't we didn't run this study but

[00:21:26] it's a very telling one and we have run some studies on

[00:21:30] on this subject since then to kind of delineate what are the mediating

[00:21:34] factors for this uh the acl the acl tears for nfl

[00:21:38] players in a 3,500 player study uh increased mortality by

[00:21:43] cardiovascular disease within the next 10 years

[00:21:46] by 50 percent and that's yeah that's that's already taking like so this

[00:21:51] isn't something where they haven't been able to rehab the knee and

[00:21:53] they're not moving as much or they're not

[00:21:55] that you know they're still moving they're still training but it's the

[00:21:58] inflammation and what has come down to with the

[00:22:00] studies we've had since then and not just us there's a number of

[00:22:04] different groups looking in this uh into this space but uh the

[00:22:09] the cardiovascular tissue is actually losing

[00:22:12] sheer strength uh resistance and so uh sheer strength is is one of the

[00:22:16] metrics they use for as blood's going through your blood vessels

[00:22:20] it's going at a kind of a perpendicular to the the tissue

[00:22:23] how much pressure uh that puts on and how much

[00:22:27] the uh the flexibility or elasticity of the cardiovascular tissue

[00:22:32] and the robustness of the tissue allows it to withstand is called the

[00:22:36] sheer strength and what we see is that when when people

[00:22:39] have this local inflammation it trickles through the rest of the body

[00:22:43] and causes really really damaging long-term impacts and so

[00:22:47] you know again if we can get people away from taking the batteries out of the

[00:22:51] fire alarm and and really get them into a place

[00:22:53] where they have a fire extinguisher to go put this fire out

[00:22:56] it's not just going to make a big difference on the on the local knee

[00:23:00] tissue it's going to make a lifelong difference and this that's our real goal

[00:23:03] for this is to provide people with a

[00:23:06] systemically beneficial outcome relative to what they have from

[00:23:09] pharmaceuticals awesome awesome i want to jump into the

[00:23:12] commercial opportunities here in a minute but i guess a couple more

[00:23:15] follow like i'm just pulling back for a second when i look at like

[00:23:19] you know i guess you know this is more of a laser therapy right

[00:23:23] red light but laser specifically what about like red light therapies they're

[00:23:27] having a moment right especially with this wellness boom

[00:23:29] that we're seeing you know a lot of places are you know people are getting

[00:23:33] red light saunas you can go to you know see a local gym here just went

[00:23:37] from a fitness gym to a wellness place

[00:23:39] right so everybody's jumping on the wellness bag way and red light

[00:23:42] therapies tend to be and even consumer goods like i was telling you

[00:23:44] about i had a one of jup panels so you know is there is there a

[00:23:47] correlation between what you guys do and kind of these these more

[00:23:50] you know mainstream red light therapies yeah explain explain the

[00:23:54] differences so we we what how how we kind of think

[00:23:57] about the the red light panels is that leds are easier to design around

[00:24:01] they're more of a commodity product they require less sophisticated

[00:24:04] engineering and they require less regulatory so

[00:24:07] this is going to be what's the volume in the space

[00:24:10] from a a kind of how people are introduced to

[00:24:13] red light therapy the downside for these is that leds emit

[00:24:18] light and what's what's called a lambertian pattern so

[00:24:21] they're essentially dye that emit light in all directions they get packaged

[00:24:25] into a small cup or a a an electrical component that can go on a pcb

[00:24:30] that are called plcc packaged in most cases

[00:24:34] that that restrains that 360 degree emission back into 120 degrees

[00:24:38] it's when you're dosing with a panel the downside is if you're

[00:24:45] the emission is very wide so if you're treating things like skin level

[00:24:50] uh if you want to have more type 2 collagen and have less wrinkles as an

[00:24:54] example it's a good anti-aging treatment there are a couple other

[00:24:58] wound healing there's another great application for this

[00:25:01] so if you have a cut on your arm and you want to want it to heal

[00:25:04] faster there's amazing data on this type of

[00:25:07] wound healing standpoint what it doesn't do though is penetrate

[00:25:10] like laser light laser lights is what they call collimated so it's very

[00:25:14] direct and and essentially in a line uh so there's two things about how we

[00:25:19] approach this that are a little bit different than the the panels

[00:25:22] one is there's we're using lasers so the penetration

[00:25:25] internally is going to be better and two is that we we made it wearable

[00:25:28] so that it's at the skin level so that our dosing models

[00:25:31] are more effective the when you're when you're trying to build

[00:25:34] dosing models for how photons this episode of the future of fitness is

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[00:26:52] act within tissue and you have any kind of space between the emitter and

[00:26:56] the skin it's extremely difficult to so just as an aside a small branch off

[00:27:02] for this the reason that dosing is so important

[00:27:04] is that your body responds to light like it does to pharmaceuticals on what

[00:27:08] they call a biophasic dose curve or an orange schultz curve which is

[00:27:12] essentially a sine wave that the more that you're taking of

[00:27:16] either this dosing of light or of pharmaceuticals

[00:27:19] the better the outcomes are until you reach an apex and then it goes back

[00:27:22] down and with the pharmaceuticals it goes way back down below zero

[00:27:26] with the light it goes back down to zero so getting the dosing correct is very

[00:27:32] important and there's something called the

[00:27:34] inverse root square law where they've done a very good job of

[00:27:38] explaining this with a fun youtube video that i can i can send you a link

[00:27:41] for but essentially think about shooting

[00:27:43] uh shooting butter at toast if you are if you're trying to cover the toast

[00:27:47] and you have a butter gun and it sprays it out uh like if you

[00:27:51] yeah butter gun sounds amazing this is this is the most intuitive way

[00:27:57] i've found about talking about the inverse

[00:27:59] root uh square law so if you if you've got

[00:28:02] if you're two inches from if the the butter gun has a has kind of a two

[00:28:05] inch distance from the toast then it hits it and you've got

[00:28:08] you're completely covered if you're two inches back you can now

[00:28:11] cover four uh four toasts or if you're six

[00:28:15] inches back or eight inches back you're covering the whole wall so

[00:28:18] like the the difference in dosing from a from a photon delivery standpoint

[00:28:23] with the panels relative to treating at the skin level is is

[00:28:26] is very difficult to manage uh and uh is non-optimal

[00:28:30] with that said we would much prefer to see people using

[00:28:34] panels than nothing it's a way like it's

[00:28:37] it's kind of what we think of as a as a first generation product because

[00:28:41] easier to deliver it's easier to design you start a

[00:28:44] bunch of leds to a board and it's going to get people some some

[00:28:47] it's not going to likely get them to the apex of a dosing standpoint but it's

[00:28:50] going to get them something above zero and that's that's still better than

[00:28:55] kind of turning to pharmaceuticals for a which is

[00:28:58] likely going to leave you below zero and uh you mentioned earlier i'm just

[00:29:02] curious because i live up here you know pretty far north and winters are

[00:29:05] gray but seasonal affective disorder is red light therapy

[00:29:08] a solid uh remedy for that or an option for

[00:29:11] to fight that what i've seen is the most effective uh versions of

[00:29:15] those are certain blends of white so white's a white's a

[00:29:18] blend of a lot of different colors there's certain reds that you need in

[00:29:22] that blend uh that correlate actually with uh

[00:29:24] sunrise uh you know there's different because of of how

[00:29:27] light comes through the atmosphere you get more red in the mornings and

[00:29:32] so you can build those in and and there are some

[00:29:35] some very good white products uh that are uh white

[00:29:38] white uh led emission products that are used for seasonal affective disorder

[00:29:43] i we joke our head of research the spurting lamp yes

[00:29:46] like the spurting lamp the vitamin difference yeah yes

[00:29:50] yeah we joke our our head of research uh who's who's

[00:29:53] starting as a phd candidate he's a very smart young man but he's up in

[00:29:57] thin land you know like we got to send you

[00:29:58] at least three or four of those because it's uh it is dark up there a

[00:30:01] lot of the year yeah it's it's pretty great here and

[00:30:05] you know i so anecdotally right i've been using the panel for about

[00:30:09] a red light panel for two or three months but it sounds like i need to

[00:30:11] step up my game here after talking to you for us the uh

[00:30:15] generally by january here in northwest montana i will get

[00:30:19] some sneaking depression right it just kind of comes in

[00:30:23] but i'm aware of it now after the first couple years here i was like

[00:30:25] why am i just bummed out you know but i have noticed like i haven't

[00:30:30] almost none of it you know since i started using so there's got to be

[00:30:32] something else i have a pretty vitamin d lamp but i think it's

[00:30:35] it's tough you know we talk about all the benefits of vitamin d and

[00:30:38] sunshine nowadays and you know all the like the huberman effect

[00:30:41] to all these wellness podcasts and and outlets where people are starting to

[00:30:45] learn about it but it's hard for people who live in northern climates to

[00:30:48] get you know this optimal right lifestyle of everything so yeah

[00:30:52] i'm always i'm always curious about that

[00:30:53] of course let's talk about the commercial opportunities so you guys

[00:30:56] are doing a direct-to-consumer is that right or do you have a b2b

[00:30:59] model tell me how you're how you're going to the market maybe just give

[00:31:02] us some insights into like you know how long the business has been

[00:31:05] around you know did you guys raise money are you

[00:31:08] bootstrapping this like how are you taking what's the strategy for

[00:31:11] going to market and all of those business businessy things

[00:31:15] great question we started the company about three years ago we delivered our

[00:31:18] first products we actually it's for both my partner and myself we had

[00:31:21] built b2b companies before but it's our first direct consumer

[00:31:25] brand and so to be able to understand our to build a

[00:31:30] community and understand and interact with them more effectively

[00:31:33] we went to market with the first product through indiegogo campaign so

[00:31:36] the crowdfunding was great we had a really exciting time kind of

[00:31:42] sitting down i think we we totally met with a hundred different

[00:31:45] potential users many of whom end up being users to

[00:31:48] understand how they thought about their pain what kind of language they

[00:31:52] used and what we could do to be able from a product design standpoint to be

[00:31:55] able to help them build habits in a

[00:31:58] meaningful way because it really is the consistency of use that's going to

[00:32:01] drive the best outcomes with the device so we i want to say 2021

[00:32:05] october 2021 we launched the product august of 2022 we started delivering and

[00:32:11] since then we've delivered almost i think almost 20 000 so 18 or 19 000

[00:32:17] devices worldwide and it's just been scaling kind of year on year

[00:32:21] and we we didn't with our unusual take on building the business

[00:32:27] and really not focusing on the commercial outcome

[00:32:30] we wanted to avoid taking on a heavy investment early

[00:32:34] kind of from from vcr private equity and so we offered our community

[00:32:38] a an opportunity to invest in and we've we've taken on

[00:32:42] half a million dollars through a crowdfunding an equity crowdfunding

[00:32:46] raise and we're we're right now aside from that essentially bootstrapped

[00:32:50] we've we're delivering a couple thousand devices a month right now

[00:32:54] it's been growing very very well and we're seeing that you know really

[00:32:58] it's having kind of a network effect of people using this

[00:33:01] seeing good results and then you know telling their friends and we see these

[00:33:05] kind of geographical blossoms around people in their use cases because of

[00:33:09] this we are kicking off a b2b what we're

[00:33:13] calling our medical professional reseller network

[00:33:15] this year we weren't planning on doing this and we actually had to be

[00:33:18] slapped in the face around 100 times to to really take

[00:33:23] note of it but what happened was we started testing with this last year

[00:33:26] last october based on around 100 different medical

[00:33:30] practitioners had written in or called us and said you know i'm a orthopedic

[00:33:35] surgeon i'm a chiropractor but i'm also a triathlete and i have this

[00:33:38] repetitive stress injury like patellar tendonitis i got great results from

[00:33:42] using your devices so i bought five from my clinic and

[00:33:46] you know how do i uh how do like my patients now want to buy them how

[00:33:49] do we work together so having been slapped in the face with

[00:33:52] that you know 100 times uh we we started building out a beta

[00:33:57] test for it and it performed way better than we expected and so

[00:33:59] one of the things that we noticed with this was that two of we have we have

[00:34:02] three different groups that we find kind of ourselves connecting with just

[00:34:06] kind of synergistically uh young uh performance

[00:34:10] based athletes and that's you know a lot of that's crossfit and

[00:34:12] triathlons and nfl and nba and this type of thing

[00:34:15] and then middle-aged guys like me who would like to keep doing and

[00:34:19] you know kind of uh my wife gives me a hard time i'm still playing

[00:34:22] rugby and and crossfit each of these you know likely the two things

[00:34:26] that are going to get you injured the most

[00:34:27] but uh i'd like to keep doing those for the you know for the

[00:34:30] the near future as long as possible and so we find ourselves connecting with

[00:34:33] those uh that could work very well one of

[00:34:36] the things we've never been able to to do from a digital marketing

[00:34:38] standpoint is connect in and tell our story to people who are

[00:34:41] older so 55 plus and have osteoarthritis or chronic pain

[00:34:46] they don't like being targeted digitally from a marketing standpoint

[00:34:49] but what they do like is and they become flag-waving users

[00:34:53] uh is if they go into their doctor and the doctor says try this

[00:34:56] and they can try it and see the results in clinic didn't they buy

[00:34:59] and it's been you know it's the only way that we found and i think

[00:35:03] that's going to be a large bulk of what we find from a purchase uh

[00:35:06] kind of journey standpoint is that we're not going to sell

[00:35:10] online to to these these kind of older cohorts

[00:35:13] uh they're they're going to see they're the kind of show me cohort

[00:35:17] they're older they don't want to hear about the story they don't watch

[00:35:19] the youtube video they want to see it work and so when they see it work

[00:35:23] they go in they buy and they tell their friends and it's it's been amazing the

[00:35:26] results that we've seen through our medical practitioners today

[00:35:29] yeah it makes a lot of sense i would imagine like sports performance

[00:35:33] centers would be an interesting option for you guys too

[00:35:36] right i mean uh you know there's a lot of athlete rehab and i mean

[00:35:39] just recovery as a category right now is is so

[00:35:43] it's just so popular for good reason right i mean it's something in the

[00:35:46] united states we've been lagging behind other countries globally and for

[00:35:49] so long is like we train train train train train but

[00:35:52] no one talks about recovery finally recovery is kind of the moment

[00:35:54] but yeah imagine sports performance are you're getting some intakes on

[00:35:57] crossfit makes a ton of sense i mean crossfits will buy

[00:36:00] crossfitters will buy anything to keep crossfitting right

[00:36:04] i know from from using from personal experience

[00:36:07] yeah you know i same i i yes of course performance

[00:36:10] sports performance is uh is great i i think two of the things that that i

[00:36:14] should mention relative to sports performance that have been

[00:36:16] that we've tracked and measured that are super interesting uh from kind of

[00:36:20] a strength and conditioning coaches or kind of pts and physios is uh

[00:36:24] performance so uh muscle recovery so if you're if you're doing really intense

[00:36:30] heavy workouts one of the things that limits you

[00:36:33] uh from coming back and training effectively for the adaptations that

[00:36:36] you'd like to make whether it's hypertrophy or strength

[00:36:39] of power whatever you're training for

[00:36:41] uh is the the muscle inflammation and inflammation that you trigger by way of

[00:36:46] this exercise and so uh you know one of the kind of one

[00:36:49] of the things we hear about this quite a lot is you know if i if i'm not

[00:36:52] triggering muscle inflammation am i going to reduce or remove the

[00:36:55] amount of uh adaptation for strength and hypertrophy

[00:36:59] that i'm going to see and it's actually the opposite direction so

[00:37:02] two of the things that we measure for this are uh c reactive proteins in

[00:37:05] creatinine kinase which are two commonly measured um

[00:37:09] muscle inflammatory markers and we reduce uh

[00:37:12] and always get them backwards but we reduce one by by over 60 percent and

[00:37:15] one by over 80 percent uh overnight and so meaning and you

[00:37:20] know how that presents you know for me from a

[00:37:22] a training standpoint if if so it also reduces delayed onset muscle soreness

[00:37:26] and that's really nice as well but a lot of times the professional

[00:37:28] athletes looking more at the the performance benefits than they are

[00:37:31] necessarily at the the soreness which they've kind of

[00:37:33] written into their their journey but for me if i go do a

[00:37:37] lot of front rack lunges as an example uh it's kind of hips

[00:37:41] and and quad strengthening you know you go do 200 front rack

[00:37:45] lunges in a day you don't think you know you're going to be sore you know

[00:37:49] you're triggering uh real real significant muscle

[00:37:53] inflammation in the two largest muscles in your body

[00:37:55] three largest muscles in your body and when you can reduce that delayed

[00:38:00] onset of muscle soreness but also when you can reduce

[00:38:02] the time that it takes you to recover from this and to get back into

[00:38:05] training these strength and conditioning coaches are loving it

[00:38:08] they're uh you know they have a hard time you know some of

[00:38:10] the guys who are are strength the coaching coach for the

[00:38:13] washington command as an example loves laser therapy he'd love to have

[00:38:17] his guys in a bed uh kind of uh doing something with this

[00:38:20] he'd love them to have him on some of the

[00:38:22] the clinical level devices which they have in their facilities it's hard to

[00:38:25] get people in into that from a day-to-day

[00:38:27] consistency and so what he found is when he gets the guys in for tape

[00:38:31] uh to watch tape with them and he'll just strap everybody on with

[00:38:34] the uh with the move plus and make sure

[00:38:37] that they are recovering better from these these really intense workouts

[00:38:40] that they're doing because it's it allows them it's almost like a

[00:38:42] performance enhancing drug from it and the outcome standpoint you could

[00:38:45] actually just go through your your power and strength increase curves

[00:38:49] that much faster because you're recovering that much faster yeah

[00:38:51] interesting so i'm looking at the product itself i mean

[00:38:54] is there is there like describe the product line i mean is there one

[00:38:59] product for like every joint in the body or like

[00:39:02] yeah how are you guys laying out the product it is and just to kind of

[00:39:05] give an idea from a visual standpoint here's the uh

[00:39:08] so it's a it's a strap uh system that we've put on with three modules

[00:39:13] that come with the standard product and it does work for we have an extender

[00:39:17] module here that i i don't have with me uh that can extend it around your

[00:39:20] body so you can kind of put these down towards

[00:39:23] minimal distance between each other and i i for example use it every day

[00:39:26] on my lower back in my gut for gut health it's really nice and

[00:39:29] actually it's one of the things that well with the gut health really

[00:39:33] yes it's our next product this this actually already makes a big

[00:39:37] difference i i use it the 808 nanometer makes a big difference from an

[00:39:40] inflammation standpoint in your gut and also triggers dopamine signaling

[00:39:44] there's there's a couple of different uh clinical and academic teams that are

[00:39:49] looking on looking at applying that to parkinson's and seeing very good

[00:39:52] results relative to treating the gut for parkinson's because of

[00:39:56] the the dopamine gap that you have with parkinson's for me

[00:40:00] i just feel better on a daily basis i've long-term cross-fitter and i'm

[00:40:03] six foot three and so my lower back was the amount of

[00:40:07] olympic lifting and deadlifts is it's you know it's not fantastic at least

[00:40:11] you know once every other month and i found that just treating

[00:40:15] every day the the lower back tissue for pain and inflammation

[00:40:19] keeps me healthier longer and if i do tweak something because i'm i'm kind of

[00:40:24] getting to my ego with the lifting then it gets me back into lifting a

[00:40:28] lot faster as well yes yeah unfortunately it's hard it's hard

[00:40:31] not to yeah and six three isn't the best frame

[00:40:35] for now sit uh either so yeah so so these guys like are five six five seven

[00:40:40] right short arms long torsos yeah so you got you got a lot of so

[00:40:44] you got crossfit is really popular i'm just looking at your website too

[00:40:48] like you have some of the biggest names i mean brooke wells sarah

[00:40:51] sigs and daughter like these are these are a big deal i mean

[00:40:55] where do you think i mean you mentioned the uh

[00:40:59] you know the practitioner angle on the b2b side but where do you see the

[00:41:03] biggest markets you know maybe for 2024 that you guys are targeting or you

[00:41:07] think have the biggest opportunity i think the medical practitioner ones

[00:41:10] uh you know we we all of us as founders particularly tom and myself

[00:41:14] our parents are in their 70s and one of the reasons we really like this

[00:41:17] you know a the concept of the mission of the company but b this technology

[00:41:21] is that we can really make an impact not just for our ourselves and

[00:41:25] extending out our kind of ability to go uh cross fitter or play

[00:41:28] rugby but it also makes a huge impact from a

[00:41:31] lifestyle standpoint from a qualitative life standpoint for

[00:41:34] the older cohorts and we've been it was frustrating to try to

[00:41:38] to address those markets and have them completely dismiss the

[00:41:42] the digital marketing side and so we've been so excited to be able to work

[00:41:45] with our medical practitioners and i've actually gone in and do some

[00:41:49] uh some clinic level visits with these guys and like

[00:41:52] the the stories that you hear back from these patients it's exactly why

[00:41:55] we're at work every day like this is

[00:41:57] this is why it's a mission-driven company like you you know building any

[00:41:59] small business you get beat up there's there's a lot going on

[00:42:02] there's a lot of friction to kind of reverse the inertia that's existing

[00:42:06] and finding the energy to do that can be uh can be

[00:42:10] difficult sometimes but you know we come into work and you see these

[00:42:13] stories from people and you hear these stories directly from people in

[00:42:16] these clinics and it's it's life-changing it's just i i

[00:42:19] can't get out of bed fast enough to go

[00:42:21] to go do what we needed to do to make that happen so for me that's the

[00:42:24] most exciting is is these older cohorts being able to actually

[00:42:28] take this on and and uh and adopt it is is just super powerful right on man oh

[00:42:33] i'm good i'm i feel your excitement i like uh what you

[00:42:37] mentioned you alluded to earlier as far as like

[00:42:39] product extension mentioned like it got one but what do you what do you

[00:42:42] foresee as like what are some of the newer products that you're going

[00:42:44] to come out with from in the next foreseeable future so uh i'll try to

[00:42:48] keep myself contained a little bit but

[00:42:50] the product that i actually wanted to start the company with is a brain

[00:42:53] product that we can uh treat transcranially and there

[00:42:57] are a number of neurological pathologies like

[00:43:01] adhd depression uh chronic anxiety bipolar addiction and then even

[00:43:08] longer term uh things like uh different flavors of

[00:43:11] dementia like louis body syndrome parkinson's uh alzheimer's where

[00:43:16] treatment is already been shown to be effective

[00:43:19] but our one of the things to take it back to our mission where we're

[00:43:22] going to be going with this longer term is

[00:43:24] we have to hold ourselves accountable not just for the number of people we

[00:43:27] get this to but the the measurement of how we're

[00:43:30] impacting their quality of life and so one of the things we've been working

[00:43:33] on with our our tech team is a spectroscopy based solution

[00:43:37] which is essentially shooting lasers in and then measuring back out with

[00:43:40] sensors the interaction that that light has had with tissue

[00:43:43] and we have a really powerful system that we're building around

[00:43:47] how you can measure metabolic function or impairment in the brain

[00:43:51] and when you can see where your brain uses

[00:43:54] or doesn't use energy very well with these different systems whether it's

[00:43:58] you know oxygen is one of the properties we use how your brain delivers oxygen

[00:44:02] we can measure directly cytochrome c oxidase is an enzyme in

[00:44:06] the phospholipid bilayer of your mitochondria uh that that's a good

[00:44:09] measure for mitochondrial function lactate there's a number of different

[00:44:13] systems that kind of overlap your your brain you never want your brain

[00:44:16] out of you know if your arm runs out of energy for a little while

[00:44:20] like you're kind of okay if your brain runs out of energy there's a

[00:44:23] ton of redundant systems in your brain so long story short we're kind of

[00:44:26] pulling together how to map all of those into these 3d pictures and then

[00:44:30] treat on an individualized basis around what what area of the brain has

[00:44:35] this impairment and where we can impact and how your body

[00:44:38] responds to that and so essentially you have this 3d picture of before

[00:44:42] during short term middle term long term

[00:44:45] and we won't be able to launch that until next year but it is

[00:44:49] i for me it's one of the most exciting technologies not only that

[00:44:52] i've been involved in but that i've seen

[00:44:54] in the last 20 years it's going to really change people's lives

[00:44:58] wow awesome man well the last question i always ask people on this show

[00:45:03] too for us is like what do you need right now

[00:45:06] you know when you're talking to you know the community of fitness health

[00:45:09] and wellness you know industry professionals like

[00:45:11] what would you like to hear from people about and how would you like

[00:45:14] them to reach out to you uh reach out i i one of the things

[00:45:17] that my partner tom and i kind of took on as a as a commitment to

[00:45:21] you know to our mission of really not not just trying to shift products but

[00:45:25] trying to to help people change their lives is if people are not getting

[00:45:28] what they want out of this or if they have questions about the technology

[00:45:31] whatever we have both of our calendlies available

[00:45:35] publicly so that if if you have a problem with the product or if you

[00:45:38] have a problem that that would keep you from buying it or adopting it

[00:45:41] call us this is something that that we're happy to jump on a call with

[00:45:43] you and talk about i don't know how many how many more

[00:45:46] years we can we can keep that up because it is ramping up in the

[00:45:48] number of calls we're getting in for it but the the what we really need is you

[00:45:52] know let's let's start talking more about what the limitations are

[00:45:56] for this current system of pharmaceuticals

[00:46:00] and you know let's let's make people aware of what they're losing

[00:46:04] and what they're putting themselves at risk because of these

[00:46:07] pharmaceuticals and then let's talk about what we can do to fill the gap

[00:46:10] to take it into a more manageable long-term solution that's going to

[00:46:13] provide better results for everyone i really you know that's that's if we

[00:46:16] could ask for everyone kind of to you know just read more about this

[00:46:20] context without it tell us how we can make that more digestible and

[00:46:23] palatable for anyone who needs that kind of pain

[00:46:26] relief or has chronic pain you know that's that's what we're here

[00:46:29] for so yeah again however we can engage to

[00:46:32] support that i'm happy to do it but yeah that's

[00:46:34] getting getting the education out is the the big yes yeah

[00:46:37] yeah education comes first man it's great uh it's a great market

[00:46:40] approach and for people listening so the website is k-i-n-e-o-n-dot-i-o

[00:46:45] and uh yeah thank you so much for joining i mean i feel your excitement i

[00:46:49] love that we just geeked out on red light therapy for

[00:46:51] you know 45 minutes that's really fun uh really dispelled some

[00:46:54] some things uh myths that were swimming around my head so

[00:46:57] really appreciate it and uh yeah ladies and gentlemen for smith thank

[00:47:00] you so much here really appreciate it

[00:47:02] hey wait don't leave yet this is your host eric malzone

[00:47:06] and i hope you enjoyed this episode of future of feminists

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[00:47:54] so much this is eric malzone and this is the future of fitness have a

[00:47:57] great day