Brendan Rice - Wodify & Better Retention with Better Communities

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[00:02:21] Brendan Rice, welcome to the future of fitness.

[00:02:23] Thanks Eric. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:24] Yeah, I've been meaning to have you on for many years. I mean, I think you and I have

[00:02:29] kind of kept in touch over the last four or five years since really your early days

[00:02:35] in Wotify. And first and foremost, you know, I always like to say just thank

[00:02:39] you guys for partnering and sponsoring the podcast here. It's really appreciated and

[00:02:44] you know, great brand, great technology. So it aligns really well with the conversations

[00:02:48] and topics and guests that we have here. So thanks for doing that, man. Really,

[00:02:53] appreciate it. Yeah, of course. You're having awesome conversations. We're excited to

[00:02:57] support you. Right on. There's a lot to talk about. I mean, I want to get into

[00:03:01] your background. I'm always keen on people who start in a company and grow

[00:03:05] through a company nowadays. It seems so rare, but you're a relatively young

[00:03:09] guy and you're the CEO of a software company, a major software company in

[00:03:13] our industry. So that's interesting. And I think there's a lot of other

[00:03:16] topics that we're going to spin off to, you know, the profitability of gyms,

[00:03:20] gamifying the fitness experience in an actual meaningful and engaging way that

[00:03:24] drives, you know, the bottom line, not just cool stuff. Right. Yeah. And then,

[00:03:31] you know, we're going to talk, of course, about artificial intelligence.

[00:03:33] I don't think there's a conversation that goes by nowadays where we don't

[00:03:36] get into that. But let's do this, Brandon, just to open up the

[00:03:40] conversations. Give us a little bit about your background. I know you're a

[00:03:42] founder of a company before you got to Wotify. So tell us about your

[00:03:45] journey and then we'll take it from there.

[00:03:46] Yeah, definitely. So before my life before Wotify, I kind of was

[00:03:51] interested in startups and entrepreneurship from an early age. My

[00:03:54] dad started a company so I was kind of in that environment. And coming out

[00:03:58] of college, I didn't have a clear path on actually building a career in

[00:04:04] startups and entrepreneurship. And so I spent the first two years out of

[00:04:08] college working at a startup accelerator. So I got to see early

[00:04:11] technologies that were being developed by founding teams and learn

[00:04:15] a lot about what it took to start a company. But after a few years of

[00:04:19] that, I realized that being on the investor side of the table, while it

[00:04:24] has a lot of the dilemma, like if you're on Shark Tank, the

[00:04:27] investors have all the power in their system. But like the

[00:04:30] investors are the ones in charge. After a couple of years, I was

[00:04:33] like, well, this isn't the fun side of the table. People creating

[00:04:36] all the value or the ones building companies. So I took the leap with

[00:04:40] the co-founder and we started an online mattress company. That was in 2015 or 16,

[00:04:48] I think when ordering a mattress online was just becoming a bit of a

[00:04:52] thing. So it was like the Wild West of the mattress industry and

[00:04:57] learned, you know, made every mistake in the book, learned a ton,

[00:05:01] I consider it. We ran the company for about two and a half or three

[00:05:04] years. And I feel like I got, you know, an MBA equivalent education

[00:05:08] through failure and learning and starting a company. So started that

[00:05:14] and I can get into more of that if you'd like to, but just learned a

[00:05:18] lot about startups. And towards the end, we ended up selling that

[00:05:23] company. But when I was thinking about what I wanted to do, I

[00:05:26] wanted to attach myself to an organization where I could still

[00:05:29] hang and kind of flex those entrepreneurial muscles and still

[00:05:32] have that impact, but join a team that was building something that I

[00:05:37] was really interested in contributing to. Ultimately, how I

[00:05:41] ended up at Wal-Sci.

[00:05:42] Yeah, right on. With the mattress company, did you develop

[00:05:47] products or were you like an aggregator? What was the

[00:05:52] actual meat of that?

[00:05:53] Yeah, the meat. I mean, very few mattress companies are really

[00:05:58] developing products where a lot of them, including us, were

[00:06:01] more of a marketing company. So we sourced a very high

[00:06:05] quality mattress. We're able to sell it through our supply chain

[00:06:09] for a fraction of what you would pay at a retail store, which

[00:06:11] is most of the e-commerce models, mattress companies. And

[00:06:14] then one of our different college graduates, like recent

[00:06:17] college graduates, people 21 to like 28, and we wanted to

[00:06:21] create a cool mattress brand, target those folks who move

[00:06:26] a lot because most of the time people are buying mattresses

[00:06:28] when they move and create kind of a fun experience around

[00:06:31] that. So that was our main differentiator. The mattress

[00:06:34] itself, we didn't develop any proprietary technology or

[00:06:37] anything like that.

[00:06:38] Yeah. Interesting. With your journey at Wannify, when you

[00:06:42] started, did you think like, yeah, someday I want to be the

[00:06:45] CEO? Or did you get started and they just start working up

[00:06:49] your ranks and then it just happened organically? A lot of

[00:06:53] times people get to executives and they actually didn't want

[00:06:55] to be there. They just ended up there. It's kind of

[00:06:57] like leadership is oftentimes not wanted but forced upon

[00:07:00] someone. But other times people are very ambitious and

[00:07:03] that's the goal. I want to get to the top, I want to lead

[00:07:06] this thing. What was your head space going through the last

[00:07:10] six years?

[00:07:11] Yeah, it's a good question. Probably somewhere in between.

[00:07:14] I would say I did not start with the goal of being CEO. I

[00:07:19] think if I had that as a kind of explicit goal, the

[00:07:23] work I would have done and the way I would have made

[00:07:26] decisions would have been slightly different versus but

[00:07:31] that said, I definitely feel like I have a drive and an

[00:07:34] ambition towards growth and leadership opportunities. The

[00:07:38] way I thought about it was I want to come into Wannify and

[00:07:41] said from my entrepreneurial experience, I want to work

[00:07:43] really hard and have an impact and contribute to this

[00:07:45] company's mission. When you work like that in any role,

[00:07:49] I think opportunities start presenting themselves. That's

[00:07:53] with great fears and other leadership at Wannify combined

[00:07:57] with six and a half, seven years has ultimately led me to

[00:08:01] the position I'm in now.

[00:08:02] Yeah. How is your daily, I guess not routine, but your

[00:08:09] focus and your drive and the challenges as you've gone

[00:08:13] up in the positions, how has that changed?

[00:08:16] Yeah, I think the things that haven't changed are how

[00:08:19] I try to structure my day. I always like to wake up

[00:08:24] early and get some form of mentor exercise and then get

[00:08:28] started on my day fairly early and then try to make time.

[00:08:33] I think the way I think about work-life balance isn't

[00:08:36] really tied to hours of working versus personal life.

[00:08:38] It's just tied to making time for friends, family and

[00:08:42] some sort of a way to disengage from work so you

[00:08:45] can come back fully engaged. So my days have pretty

[00:08:51] much looked like that for the past six years. The

[00:08:53] actual work has gone from in the first few years, very

[00:08:57] hands-on like I was doing everything to in the past

[00:09:02] year. I still try to get a lot of that just because

[00:09:06] it's fun, get a lot of that hands-on work. But a

[00:09:08] lot of my job now and responsibility is making

[00:09:12] sure we have a really talented and engaged team

[00:09:16] being in a lot of meetings where I'm just helping

[00:09:19] folks either make decisions or giving feedback on

[00:09:23] our product or our approach to customer success or

[00:09:28] our organization decisions. So kind of how the work

[00:09:31] shifts is you go from being an individual contributor

[00:09:34] to managing a team to leading an organization and

[00:09:38] you shift from typing on the keyboard and actually

[00:09:43] making things to being in meetings. The other thing

[00:09:46] that I think hasn't changed that I have to

[00:09:48] continually remind myself to do a good job of is

[00:09:50] actually getting firsthand experience myself in

[00:09:54] fitness and with our customers and staying close

[00:09:57] to the ground floor of the industry because when

[00:09:59] you get busier and busier, it's really easy to

[00:10:02] not do that stuff. So I try to either find ways

[00:10:05] to get on calls with customers or visit customers

[00:10:07] or drop in at gyms and stay close to the

[00:10:11] industry.

[00:10:11] Right on. As the leader of

[00:10:15] Wotify, I would imagine something that's

[00:10:18] constantly in your mind is the competition, the

[00:10:21] market. How do you differentiate? How do you

[00:10:24] continue to innovate? Explain for people who

[00:10:27] maybe give us some insights into the type of

[00:10:31] clients you have and then how you guys are

[00:10:33] really focused on the market and innovating

[00:10:35] and differentiating amongst there. I think

[00:10:37] that'd be a good starting point.

[00:10:38] Yeah, absolutely. So I think the best way to

[00:10:41] explain that is give a little bit of background

[00:10:43] on Wotify and how we got to where we are today.

[00:10:46] So in 2012, Wotify started. It was a side

[00:10:50] project of our founder, Amit Shah, who started

[00:10:53] doing CrossFit at a gym in New Jersey. At

[00:10:56] the time, CrossFit in 2012 was on its

[00:10:59] exponential growth curve and there were CrossFit

[00:11:01] gyms opening all over the country and more

[00:11:03] and more people coming into CrossFit gyms. But

[00:11:05] the insight that he had was there was a

[00:11:09] problem. There was a problem in CrossFit,

[00:11:11] which is people were coming in and working

[00:11:14] out there for two or three months and then

[00:11:15] leaving. There wasn't a lot of people

[00:11:17] making it past the 90-day mark. Now,

[00:11:19] there was enough interest where a lot of

[00:11:22] gyms were still able to stay in business

[00:11:24] and succeed because there were so many

[00:11:25] people coming through the door, but there

[00:11:27] was still... That problem existed. And so

[00:11:30] Wotify created digital... The product we

[00:11:34] created was digital performance tracking,

[00:11:36] which is the ability for gym owners to

[00:11:37] program workouts in a computer, push it

[00:11:39] up on a screen in their gym, put it on

[00:11:41] their website and have clients record

[00:11:43] their results digitally. Sounds pretty

[00:11:45] simple, but that is what really

[00:11:48] involved our entire business and

[00:11:50] changed the landscape of CrossFit.

[00:11:53] And so what we did was we solved our

[00:11:54] retention problem in CrossFit. Over the

[00:11:56] next few years, we built out the rest

[00:11:59] of our features that created a

[00:12:01] comprehensive gym management system and

[00:12:04] that has allowed us to... Our core

[00:12:05] market is still CrossFit and

[00:12:07] functional fitness gyms, but it's

[00:12:08] allowed us to expand into other types

[00:12:10] of businesses. And so today, going back

[00:12:13] to your question, we compete in a market

[00:12:16] that has been kind of firm gym

[00:12:20] management software and sometimes

[00:12:23] it goes to gym management software, CRM.

[00:12:25] We've tried to... We've

[00:12:27] differentiated ourselves strategically to

[00:12:29] the actual features we build to create

[00:12:32] unique client experiences that are...

[00:12:35] We don't just do payment processing.

[00:12:37] And so the term we've coined to try to

[00:12:39] communicate that is customer retention

[00:12:41] platform. And that's how we think about

[00:12:44] differentiation and how we stand out in

[00:12:45] this market. If I'm talking to a gym

[00:12:47] owner and they're like, hey, I want to...

[00:12:49] I need a system to process payment

[00:12:51] and manage my class schedule. That's

[00:12:53] all I need. You can probably go

[00:12:55] buy that for $90. You probably don't

[00:12:57] need Wotify to do that. And so, yeah,

[00:12:59] I think the way we differentiate

[00:13:01] ourselves, again, going back to CrossFit

[00:13:03] and now in other verticals is how can

[00:13:05] we create these tools and systems that

[00:13:08] aren't just back end business

[00:13:10] management. They extend to a lot of

[00:13:11] different areas of your business and

[00:13:13] ultimately drive retention, drive

[00:13:15] business value.

[00:13:17] Yeah. I mean, customer retention

[00:13:21] through a software, I mean, that's such

[00:13:22] an interpersonal thing like its

[00:13:25] relationships, its community, it's

[00:13:26] having good products, getting results.

[00:13:28] Like retention is a very...

[00:13:30] You know, the last decade has become

[00:13:33] one of the most important conversation

[00:13:35] and business metrics when it comes to

[00:13:36] gyms, which is great because before

[00:13:39] really wasn't. At least in the

[00:13:41] boutique, in the micro gym area. So

[00:13:43] how do you exactly boost retention

[00:13:46] through a software?

[00:13:47] Yeah, it's a great question. The way...

[00:13:49] So we've thought about this a lot

[00:13:51] because in the first few years, it

[00:13:53] was happening like we built digital

[00:13:55] performance tracking, we improved

[00:13:57] retention, we're just doing features.

[00:13:59] And now we've had the opportunity to

[00:14:01] kind of step in and be like, okay,

[00:14:02] what's working here and how do we

[00:14:04] define it in a way where we can

[00:14:05] communicate it? We can also build

[00:14:06] our product roadmap to support it.

[00:14:08] And so the way we think about it

[00:14:10] right now is on retention

[00:14:13] effectiveness has broken down into a

[00:14:15] few categories.

[00:14:16] Client accountability, having an

[00:14:19] engaged community and then being able

[00:14:21] to create a hybrid experience, digital

[00:14:23] and physical for our customers. If you

[00:14:26] can do those three things through

[00:14:27] software, it has to support all three

[00:14:29] of those things. And if you can do

[00:14:31] those things, your retention is going

[00:14:32] to be improved. So just quick

[00:14:34] evidence of that.

[00:14:35] There was an industry report

[00:14:36] published at the end of last year.

[00:14:37] The two brains stated the industry

[00:14:39] report. It's like one of the most

[00:14:40] comprehensive data sets for these

[00:14:43] types of boutique, smaller

[00:14:45] functional fitness type of gyms.

[00:14:47] And the average length of

[00:14:49] engagement was eight minutes.

[00:14:51] Our customers, it's about 16 months.

[00:14:53] So it's double the average when

[00:14:55] you're using these features to support

[00:14:57] retention. And so when we outline

[00:15:01] those three categories, one of the

[00:15:02] things we did, our marketing team had

[00:15:03] this great idea about maybe a month or

[00:15:06] two ago, like why don't we send a

[00:15:08] survey to our customers? We did a

[00:15:09] little giveaway and we're like, hey,

[00:15:11] why don't you tell us stories about

[00:15:12] how the Wotifys helped you in each

[00:15:14] of those categories? And I think we

[00:15:16] got like a couple hundred responses

[00:15:18] that were just these like amazing

[00:15:20] anecdotes and insights. And one of

[00:15:22] them, I have a few of them up right

[00:15:23] now, but one of them was talking

[00:15:25] about the engaged community and they

[00:15:26] talked about how they use Wotify.

[00:15:29] It's a gym called Mousetrap Fitness.

[00:15:31] And they said Wotifys are

[00:15:33] gyms secret weapon.

[00:15:35] And I'm like, imagine what other

[00:15:37] business management tool do you

[00:15:39] describe as your secret weapon

[00:15:41] for your business? So I think,

[00:15:43] yeah, that's I can share some more

[00:15:44] examples, but that's how we think

[00:15:46] about software helping to throw

[00:15:47] attention in those categories.

[00:15:49] Yeah, yeah, interesting, man.

[00:15:50] I mean, that dovetails nicely into

[00:15:52] something I want to jam with you on is

[00:15:53] like just recently recorded

[00:15:57] with Juliette Starratt and Alex Allen

[00:15:58] Mistini on a quarterly report.

[00:16:00] And we cover CrossFit, which is the

[00:16:02] first time we've done that.

[00:16:03] We want to and getting numbers on

[00:16:05] the health of CrossFit as a

[00:16:07] category with Infidis is really hard.

[00:16:09] Right. I mean, CrossFit HQ doesn't

[00:16:11] really share a whole lot, or at least

[00:16:12] with us. So we look to like

[00:16:14] two brain business report.

[00:16:15] We look to some numbers

[00:16:18] gotten from Pushpress and a couple

[00:16:19] other places. But the thing that

[00:16:21] stood out and it hasn't really

[00:16:23] changed, it was kind of a downer

[00:16:24] as Trinna ever talked about it, but

[00:16:26] specific to CrossFit and functional

[00:16:28] fitness, which is where you guys are

[00:16:29] kind of your core market.

[00:16:31] Yeah. Gym owners and affiliates

[00:16:33] don't make a lot of money.

[00:16:34] I think the number was an average

[00:16:35] of 4K a month that

[00:16:38] a gym owner will take home.

[00:16:40] And that's like that's just

[00:16:41] that's not enough. Right.

[00:16:42] It's like he that means

[00:16:44] you have to have a second job or

[00:16:47] someone else in the family

[00:16:48] is bringing in income.

[00:16:49] So in certain circumstances, it's fine

[00:16:51] and it can work.

[00:16:52] But that's not where we want to be

[00:16:55] for sure. So when you look at like

[00:16:56] that particular segment of the industry,

[00:16:59] how do we make them more profitable?

[00:17:00] Like what are the keys?

[00:17:01] Do you think in is it business

[00:17:04] coaching? Is it more frameworks?

[00:17:06] Is it better marketing and sales?

[00:17:08] Like I'm sure it's a little bit of

[00:17:09] everything, but where do you think

[00:17:10] the core problems are and how can we

[00:17:12] help that that segment?

[00:17:13] Yeah, it's a good observation.

[00:17:15] It's something that we've

[00:17:17] kind of obsessed over as well.

[00:17:20] We have a lot of data on our customers,

[00:17:22] right? And it's pretty representative

[00:17:23] sample of CrossFit and functional

[00:17:25] fitness. And we study those numbers

[00:17:27] as much or more as we study

[00:17:30] and optimize our own business metrics.

[00:17:31] How many customers we have

[00:17:33] in our retention?

[00:17:34] We look at gym owners,

[00:17:36] average revenue, profit,

[00:17:38] retention, those numbers.

[00:17:39] So we think about it all the time.

[00:17:41] I think there's a lot of different

[00:17:43] ways I could answer that question.

[00:17:45] But starting with

[00:17:45] Wotify and our software,

[00:17:47] because I know that the way

[00:17:51] we build features and the way

[00:17:53] we support our customers can have

[00:17:55] a direct impact on the revenue

[00:17:56] and profitability.

[00:17:57] And so we take that as a

[00:17:59] responsibility, but also

[00:18:00] a huge opportunity.

[00:18:01] And so a few of the ways

[00:18:02] so we think about how we can

[00:18:04] improve regeneration and conversion.

[00:18:07] That's you know, we can

[00:18:08] get people indoor.

[00:18:09] We think a lot about retention

[00:18:11] and then we think about optimizing

[00:18:13] their business efficiency, which is

[00:18:15] either lowering costs or saving time.

[00:18:17] Those three things are

[00:18:20] pretty big levers of how much

[00:18:22] money people are taking home

[00:18:24] and profitability of their business.

[00:18:26] The other thing just kind of

[00:18:27] popped into my head is

[00:18:28] a lot of gym owners or people

[00:18:29] in this industry will ask me like

[00:18:31] what I think the most important

[00:18:32] metrics for gym owners to track is.

[00:18:35] And what I've started saying,

[00:18:36] I used to have kind of

[00:18:37] a different answer.

[00:18:37] Now the first thing I start with

[00:18:39] is profit because I just realized

[00:18:40] like people aren't talking about

[00:18:42] it or even know about it.

[00:18:44] So I'm like you have to.

[00:18:46] The first thing is like you have to.

[00:18:48] It sounds cliche now, but like you have

[00:18:49] to treat your fitness business

[00:18:51] like a business.

[00:18:52] And I know it probably wasn't

[00:18:54] the it shouldn't have been

[00:18:56] the reason you got into it,

[00:18:57] but it has to be part of like

[00:18:59] your sustainability as a business

[00:19:02] is to actually treat it

[00:19:03] like a business and think about profit.

[00:19:05] So there's some things

[00:19:06] we've done to improve that.

[00:19:07] So at a high level, like all of our features

[00:19:09] are designed to help you with those things.

[00:19:11] So how we help that problem

[00:19:13] is we try to educate.

[00:19:15] We try to build the features

[00:19:16] and educate our customers

[00:19:17] to adopt everything so they can make

[00:19:19] more money, save time, reduce costs.

[00:19:21] And yeah, I think I mean that

[00:19:23] we show that that has an impact

[00:19:25] on increasing gym's profitability.

[00:19:28] There's a yeah, so I'll pause there.

[00:19:30] Any kind of detail you want me

[00:19:32] to go into or follow up questions for now?

[00:19:35] It's all a sense of what you quoted

[00:19:37] before we started recording,

[00:19:38] which I really liked was

[00:19:39] no passion without profit,

[00:19:41] which is it passion only gets you so far

[00:19:46] when it comes to gym ownership.

[00:19:47] And I wonder when you look at like

[00:19:50] a CrossFit affiliate versus an OTF,

[00:19:55] yeah, an Orange Theory,

[00:19:55] something like that,

[00:19:56] like if you compared them side by side,

[00:20:01] why do CrossFit owner,

[00:20:03] why do Orange Theory affiliates

[00:20:05] make a lot more money, right?

[00:20:07] For the most part, I mean,

[00:20:08] I know since the pandemic

[00:20:09] it's gone down a little bit,

[00:20:10] but they're still doing all right

[00:20:12] versus CrossFit who are making

[00:20:13] somewhere between 12 to 15 grand a month, right?

[00:20:17] Like is it the pricing model?

[00:20:19] Is it the marketing?

[00:20:22] Is it the branding?

[00:20:24] Like where do you think

[00:20:26] if you were going to come in and like,

[00:20:27] let me put this way,

[00:20:28] if you were going to come in

[00:20:29] and tweak some things

[00:20:30] in a typical CrossFit gym,

[00:20:31] what would be the first couple things

[00:20:33] that you would immediately do?

[00:20:34] Yeah, I think I would start with,

[00:20:36] I'll give you a little bit

[00:20:38] of a roundabout answer,

[00:20:39] but I think this is the right,

[00:20:41] there isn't a silver bullet.

[00:20:42] So what you need to start with

[00:20:44] is understanding what profitability

[00:20:47] looks like for your gym

[00:20:49] and then backing into like

[00:20:51] where you are actually missing a mark.

[00:20:53] So that answer is likely different

[00:20:55] for a lot of different gyms.

[00:20:57] For some gyms,

[00:20:57] they probably do an excellent job of marketing

[00:20:59] and have a conversion problem.

[00:21:01] For some gyms,

[00:21:01] they probably have a retention problem,

[00:21:05] maybe a pricing challenge.

[00:21:07] So I think it,

[00:21:09] like with any business,

[00:21:10] in order to come in

[00:21:12] and make improvements with ability

[00:21:14] or revenue or whatever else,

[00:21:16] you have to first study that business specifically

[00:21:20] and understand the strengths

[00:21:22] and the weaknesses

[00:21:22] and what needs to be adjusted.

[00:21:24] I go in,

[00:21:24] one of the stories I shared with you

[00:21:26] is I went into a Barry's yesterday

[00:21:29] and there was 35, 40 people

[00:21:31] paying $35 for that class.

[00:21:35] It was absolutely pop.

[00:21:36] And I went into a CrossFit gym

[00:21:38] like a week ago

[00:21:39] and I think there were four people in the class.

[00:21:41] And the reason,

[00:21:43] Wotify aside,

[00:21:44] the reason I'm disappointed in that

[00:21:47] is I think it's a great methodology

[00:21:50] and a great experience.

[00:21:51] The coach was amazing

[00:21:53] and like really good at his credit.

[00:21:55] And I was like,

[00:21:56] there should be like 20 people in this room.

[00:21:58] So in that case,

[00:22:00] there probably is maybe

[00:22:02] that business could focus on marketing.

[00:22:04] And yeah, so I think you really gotta just

[00:22:07] break down the numbers,

[00:22:08] understand your business

[00:22:09] and then just start implementing

[00:22:11] initiatives to move those numbers.

[00:22:13] And a lot of business mentoring and coaching,

[00:22:15] which is a great investment,

[00:22:16] I would say overall,

[00:22:17] but they just help you do that.

[00:22:19] They help you break down like,

[00:22:21] okay, sure the areas of your business

[00:22:23] you need to improve

[00:22:23] and here are some like standard systems

[00:22:25] and processes you can put in place

[00:22:27] to improve those.

[00:22:28] Yeah, I mean,

[00:22:29] the challenge of course is like

[00:22:30] if your revenues are low,

[00:22:32] the ability to invest in coaching

[00:22:34] and marketing is tough, right?

[00:22:35] Like you gotta,

[00:22:37] there's not,

[00:22:37] the pizza pie is only so big, right?

[00:22:39] Can't give away how many slices

[00:22:41] you got to eat yourself.

[00:22:42] So it's a challenge.

[00:22:44] I mean, go ahead.

[00:22:47] Sorry to interrupt you.

[00:22:48] I would just say on that note

[00:22:49] where everyone could start

[00:22:51] without spending a dollar

[00:22:52] is focus, assuming you already had

[00:22:54] the business with a few clients,

[00:22:56] is create an amazing client experience

[00:22:59] for every client at your gym.

[00:23:01] And if you do that,

[00:23:02] you will get some organic growth

[00:23:05] and good things will follow.

[00:23:06] Your retention will improve

[00:23:07] and you'll get a client grade.

[00:23:08] So, you know,

[00:23:10] just ask yourself like

[00:23:12] is every client coming into your gym

[00:23:14] thinking about your business

[00:23:15] outside of the one hour class

[00:23:17] and talking about it to their friends

[00:23:18] and feeling like they got

[00:23:20] more than what they're paying

[00:23:21] every month for?

[00:23:22] There's a lot of different ways

[00:23:23] you can do that

[00:23:24] and modify those tools to support that.

[00:23:25] But I think that's where I would start

[00:23:26] with that, you know,

[00:23:27] saying like, well,

[00:23:28] I don't know how to stand up

[00:23:29] a Facebook ads campaign.

[00:23:30] Go create an amazing experience.

[00:23:33] Just like if you were launching,

[00:23:35] you know, a product,

[00:23:35] like it starts with a really,

[00:23:37] really good product,

[00:23:38] like a physical product.

[00:23:39] And you can think about it

[00:23:40] the same way as the product

[00:23:41] you're giving the clients

[00:23:42] at your business.

[00:23:43] Yeah.

[00:23:43] And a lot of times good marketing

[00:23:45] can be baked into the product itself.

[00:23:47] Right?

[00:23:47] That's something that

[00:23:49] probably that's a whole other podcast.

[00:23:50] But you also I want to

[00:23:52] we don't just talk about CrossFit, right?

[00:23:54] You also work with martial arts.

[00:23:57] You know, what are some

[00:23:57] of the other categories

[00:23:58] that you guys work with?

[00:23:59] And then I'm curious about the health

[00:24:01] of those businesses as well.

[00:24:02] When you look at like

[00:24:03] the independent gym owner.

[00:24:04] Yeah, good question.

[00:24:05] So how we got into other verticals,

[00:24:08] kind of like what I was saying

[00:24:09] with CrossFit,

[00:24:10] like the reason we were successful

[00:24:11] in CrossFit is we changed

[00:24:13] the experience of a client

[00:24:14] in a CrossFit gym

[00:24:16] and that improved retention,

[00:24:17] which was the business value.

[00:24:19] And that's why we grew as a company

[00:24:22] and why so many CrossFit gyms use us now.

[00:24:24] Specifically, the big,

[00:24:26] the single biggest areas

[00:24:27] is the digital performance tracking,

[00:24:29] which has elements of competition,

[00:24:31] accountability, gamification,

[00:24:32] all built in to some fairly simple software

[00:24:37] related to performance tracking.

[00:24:38] But it makes a huge difference.

[00:24:41] And we have the data to support it

[00:24:42] when people are engaging

[00:24:44] with their gym in that way

[00:24:45] and getting PR stars and badges

[00:24:47] and seeing people from like

[00:24:50] one of our customers that signed up

[00:24:52] there that they didn't even realize this.

[00:24:53] But they were like, oh my God,

[00:24:54] all of a sudden our gym of say

[00:24:56] they had 150 members before

[00:24:58] was these little communities

[00:24:59] of like 20 people,

[00:25:01] depending on the class they went to.

[00:25:02] It's like 20 people in my 530 AM class

[00:25:04] were best friends.

[00:25:05] They didn't even know

[00:25:06] the other members at the gym.

[00:25:07] They're like we implemented Spotify.

[00:25:09] They're using the leaderboard

[00:25:10] and in-app chat.

[00:25:11] And now we have this way

[00:25:14] more tight knit community

[00:25:15] and we're doing these events

[00:25:16] and everyone shows up to them

[00:25:17] and they know each other.

[00:25:18] So anyways, what we saw is

[00:25:21] when we can change the experience,

[00:25:24] it drives business value

[00:25:25] and it differentiates us in the market.

[00:25:28] And in the past couple of years,

[00:25:29] we've started to see that

[00:25:30] and some other verticals

[00:25:31] that we're really excited about.

[00:25:32] So the first one is Jiu-Jitsu.

[00:25:34] The backstory there is

[00:25:35] we just CrossFit Jiu-Jitsu

[00:25:36] actually have an interesting,

[00:25:37] surprising amount of overlap.

[00:25:39] A lot of Jiu-Jitsu athletes

[00:25:41] will train their conditioning

[00:25:43] in CrossFit and vice versa.

[00:25:45] So what we saw was

[00:25:46] we just started seeing

[00:25:47] Jiu-Jitsu customers sign up for Spotify

[00:25:51] and we were frankly kind of surprised.

[00:25:52] We were like,

[00:25:53] this must not work great for you.

[00:25:55] But they're like, oh, you know, it works.

[00:25:57] And I started doing Jiu-Jitsu.

[00:25:59] We have other folks in the company

[00:26:00] that are passionate about Jiu-Jitsu.

[00:26:02] And so we just immersed ourselves

[00:26:04] in the industry and we learned

[00:26:05] and we had this light bulb moment

[00:26:08] that was similar to CrossFit,

[00:26:09] which was Jiu-Jitsu's been exploding

[00:26:12] in popularity just like CrossFit was in 2012.

[00:26:15] But there's a problem.

[00:26:16] The problem is,

[00:26:18] just to summarize it really quickly,

[00:26:19] is it's fairly intimidating.

[00:26:21] And especially when you start

[00:26:23] but this is all the way

[00:26:23] into higher ranks,

[00:26:25] it's difficult to know what you're going

[00:26:27] to be working on that day in class.

[00:26:29] A lot of times you'll just show up

[00:26:30] and you're like, oh my God,

[00:26:31] this is what's happening.

[00:26:32] And then you watch instructor demo

[00:26:34] the technique really quickly

[00:26:35] and then you hit break

[00:26:36] and you go try it for yourself.

[00:26:37] And a lot of people struggle with that

[00:26:39] and then they don't get

[00:26:40] the most out of their experience.

[00:26:41] And then there's little accountability

[00:26:43] outside of class.

[00:26:45] And so we took our digital

[00:26:46] performance tracking feature

[00:26:48] and we added some functionality to it.

[00:26:50] We created this way for Jiu-Jitsu schools

[00:26:53] to program curriculum in Wadisai,

[00:26:55] upload videos that clients can access

[00:26:57] via our app,

[00:26:58] know what they're going

[00:26:59] to do that day in class,

[00:27:01] watch looping videos of techniques

[00:27:03] in class on TVs

[00:27:05] and then record notes and videos

[00:27:06] and track accountability outside of class.

[00:27:09] And just like in CrossFit,

[00:27:11] we're seeing these early adopter

[00:27:12] Jiu-Jitsu schools

[00:27:14] create incredibly successful businesses.

[00:27:16] The feedback from their students is amazing.

[00:27:19] So yeah, that's been super fun to watch.

[00:27:22] And then you start learning things.

[00:27:23] You were asking about Jiu-Jitsu

[00:27:24] and you're like, these people

[00:27:25] have been training at Jiu-Jitsu schools

[00:27:27] for eight, nine, 10 years.

[00:27:29] There's something there

[00:27:30] you can learn

[00:27:31] and try to bring to CrossFit.

[00:27:32] And it's obviously a different

[00:27:35] an entire different world.

[00:27:36] But in Jiu-Jitsu,

[00:27:38] you're working on techniques

[00:27:39] to progress through belt levels.

[00:27:41] And there's some lessons

[00:27:43] there for CrossFit.

[00:27:44] How are you helping

[00:27:46] every client at your gym

[00:27:48] think about what they're progressing towards?

[00:27:50] What are their goals?

[00:27:51] It doesn't have to be the CrossFit games.

[00:27:53] But everyone's going for a reason,

[00:27:55] like just help them think about their goals

[00:27:57] and how they're getting closer to those.

[00:28:00] This episode of The Future of Fitness

[00:28:02] is brought to you by our friends at Wodify.

[00:28:04] I own gyms for the better part of a decade.

[00:28:06] There are a lot of options

[00:28:07] when it comes to gym management softwares

[00:28:09] and the cost and stress

[00:28:11] of migrating from one to another

[00:28:12] is tremendous.

[00:28:13] Trust me, I get it.

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[00:28:16] needs to be an absolute no brainer.

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[00:29:03] forward slash future of fitness.

[00:29:06] That's W-O-D-I-F-Y

[00:29:09] dot com

[00:29:10] forward slash future of fitness.

[00:29:13] Now on to the show.

[00:29:16] Yeah.

[00:29:16] Yeah, it's, it's, uh,

[00:29:18] there's a lot of overlap with Jiu-Jitsu.

[00:29:20] I mean, when I was in Santa Barbara

[00:29:22] and I was still running the gyms

[00:29:23] right around 2015,

[00:29:26] I, which was, I would say

[00:29:29] as far as popularity of CrossFit,

[00:29:30] that's when things started to really

[00:29:31] flatten or go down.

[00:29:33] You know, phone wasn't ringing as much.

[00:29:35] Really had to go out

[00:29:36] and work for the clients.

[00:29:37] You had to have her refine your systems more.

[00:29:39] So I was learning a bunch of things

[00:29:40] and I became good friends

[00:29:42] with Sean Apperson who owned Paragon Jiu-Jitsu.

[00:29:45] So I went to a couple of classes.

[00:29:46] Unfortunately, like I had,

[00:29:48] I went to like three classes.

[00:29:49] I had two major injuries, uh,

[00:29:51] like right away.

[00:29:52] Like I had a YAR once and so I don't know.

[00:29:55] I'm going to go back to Jiu-Jitsu eventually.

[00:29:57] I think I'm going to do that in my 50s.

[00:29:59] That's going to be my thing.

[00:29:59] I think I'll do it in my 50s.

[00:30:00] Anyway, the point I'm trying to get to

[00:30:02] is that I would go into classes

[00:30:03] or I would golf with Sean like once a week

[00:30:05] and we would always swap notes.

[00:30:07] And he was kind of at that point.

[00:30:08] I was at like around 11, 12,

[00:30:11] or it was like, dude, business practices.

[00:30:13] Who cares?

[00:30:14] Like we're getting so many leads

[00:30:15] coming through the door right now.

[00:30:16] Like let's just throw them in the class

[00:30:18] and sign up the membership and do whatever, right?

[00:30:20] And I'm like,

[00:30:21] and then from my personal experience

[00:30:22] with Jiu-Jitsu too, I'm like,

[00:30:23] dude, you have to have an onboarding.

[00:30:25] Like you can't just throw me into class

[00:30:26] because I got hurt twice.

[00:30:28] Like I don't know how to do a back roll

[00:30:29] and you know,

[00:30:31] that my neck and then completely tore up a finger.

[00:30:33] Like you gotta have like,

[00:30:35] and I feel like that was something that,

[00:30:36] but there was so similar, right?

[00:30:38] The class model,

[00:30:40] the grunginess of it,

[00:30:41] like the type of people that you attract

[00:30:44] was very similar.

[00:30:45] And I felt like,

[00:30:46] you know, Jiu-Jitsu could probably learn a lot

[00:30:48] from CrossFit being like five or six years ahead

[00:30:50] within the curve.

[00:30:51] So it's an interesting cross-pollination.

[00:30:54] And I don't think,

[00:30:55] this is my thought I want to get on you,

[00:30:56] is like,

[00:30:56] I don't think that cross-pollination

[00:30:58] of business ideas and concepts happens enough

[00:31:01] across particular verticals within our industry.

[00:31:04] Like, you know,

[00:31:05] as the franchise,

[00:31:06] as the Orange Theory franchise,

[00:31:08] looking at CrossFit for ideas,

[00:31:09] as CrossFit looking at OTF,

[00:31:11] as Jiu-Jitsu looking at CrossFit,

[00:31:13] and like, you know,

[00:31:14] are you seeing these cross-pollinations of ideas

[00:31:16] and best practices across those micro niches?

[00:31:20] Yeah, I know.

[00:31:20] I think there's,

[00:31:23] for the most part,

[00:31:24] a lack of that at all.

[00:31:26] I think a lot of,

[00:31:28] I mean, one of the root causes is probably that

[00:31:31] a lot of the owners of these types of businesses

[00:31:34] started them because of their personal passion

[00:31:36] in that specific vertical.

[00:31:38] And your passion about that vertical,

[00:31:41] you then start a business,

[00:31:42] you're super busy.

[00:31:43] And so the idea of studying or experiencing

[00:31:46] other types of fitness that you can learn from,

[00:31:49] I just don't see a lot of people doing it.

[00:31:51] And I think it would be,

[00:31:53] you know, if I was a gym owner,

[00:31:55] probably one of the first things I would do

[00:31:56] is try to set up some sort of pure network

[00:31:59] of other non-competitive gym owners

[00:32:01] and experience their fitness

[00:32:03] and brainstorm with them.

[00:32:05] Or even if you can't do that,

[00:32:07] retry some of those businesses

[00:32:11] it's not like you're going undercover

[00:32:12] at Orange Theory and stealing their secrets.

[00:32:14] But I went to a spinning class

[00:32:17] and they had,

[00:32:18] I showed up and they had written

[00:32:20] in whiteboard marker on a locker,

[00:32:23] welcome Brendan,

[00:32:25] this is your fifth class or something.

[00:32:27] And I was just like,

[00:32:27] that's a cool idea.

[00:32:29] So yeah, there's a lot of little things,

[00:32:31] there's some bigger trends

[00:32:32] you can keep an eye out for.

[00:32:34] But I think if you want a way

[00:32:36] to put it into practice

[00:32:37] and you're a gym owner,

[00:32:38] just think about like,

[00:32:39] okay, you're super busy day to day.

[00:32:41] Just start with anytime you're traveling,

[00:32:43] drop into a different fitness.

[00:32:45] Like that's a good way to start

[00:32:46] because then it's just like,

[00:32:47] okay, you're in your team day to day.

[00:32:49] But if you're traveling or on the weekend,

[00:32:50] go try something you haven't tried before.

[00:32:51] Yeah, it's a great idea.

[00:32:54] And I would even suggest,

[00:32:55] because I got benefit from this myself,

[00:32:57] was just having a network

[00:32:58] of other business owners

[00:32:59] doesn't necessarily have fitness

[00:33:00] within your area, right?

[00:33:01] Like, you know, the coffee shop down the road,

[00:33:03] the bike shop, right?

[00:33:06] The big, like whatever it may be,

[00:33:08] there's a ton of opportunities.

[00:33:09] Breweries are always interesting.

[00:33:11] Like, you know, you can learn so much

[00:33:12] from all these other business owners

[00:33:14] and it's just a good network to have

[00:33:16] because not only do you learn

[00:33:18] about things that you never would have thought of

[00:33:20] probably if you just stayed in your lane,

[00:33:22] but you also have the opportunity

[00:33:24] to do cross promotions,

[00:33:27] just support each other throughout a local area.

[00:33:29] I mean, it's not necessarily,

[00:33:31] I would say like your zip code is your niche, right?

[00:33:34] Whatever, if you're a local business

[00:33:35] and you're serving people

[00:33:36] in a brick and mortar or retail fashion,

[00:33:39] that's your niche.

[00:33:39] You should own your zip code.

[00:33:41] You should know everybody there

[00:33:43] because that's how you do like good marketing,

[00:33:44] good events and things like that.

[00:33:46] So I can't, just the hustle,

[00:33:49] just being out there, you know,

[00:33:50] being an advocate for your community

[00:33:52] is really important.

[00:33:53] Yeah. The other benefit to that,

[00:33:54] so completely agree,

[00:33:55] I do the same thing at Wotify

[00:33:57] and talk to people in completely unrelated markets

[00:33:59] and the other benefit as a business owner

[00:34:01] is you might appreciate being able to give back.

[00:34:03] Like, you probably have ideas that you've learned

[00:34:05] that you take for granted

[00:34:07] and some business owner will be going through this challenge

[00:34:09] and you'll be like, oh, actually,

[00:34:10] like I tried this or I use this company

[00:34:13] or vendor or whatever

[00:34:14] and it's a great way to stay on the checklist

[00:34:17] and pick your data.

[00:34:21] Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:34:24] It was, you know, just anecdotally too,

[00:34:26] like there's a book that if this feels weird to you,

[00:34:30] if you're a GM owner or a business owner,

[00:34:32] you're like, it feels weird to just go out

[00:34:34] and like ask people to, hey,

[00:34:36] you want to be my network buddy?

[00:34:38] Like if that feels weird to you,

[00:34:39] it's actually not that weird really

[00:34:41] when it gets down to it.

[00:34:42] It's only weird if you make it weird

[00:34:44] but there's a great book called The Go Giver.

[00:34:46] I've talked about this book so many times

[00:34:48] in my lifetime by Bob Berg.

[00:34:49] It's just this little book.

[00:34:51] If you read it, it gives you a really good mindset

[00:34:54] and approaches to like how to network

[00:34:56] with people successfully in a not salesy

[00:34:59] or networky way, right?

[00:35:01] Like I think people think of networking

[00:35:02] within their local, they think of like some forced event

[00:35:05] where you have your name on a patch on your chest

[00:35:09] and someone from a local insurance salesman

[00:35:11] is gonna come pitch you, right?

[00:35:12] That's not the way it is.

[00:35:13] You just want to offer value first

[00:35:16] and just be that type of person

[00:35:17] and it's gonna turn out really well for you.

[00:35:19] You know, I wanna give some time

[00:35:21] to artificial intelligence,

[00:35:23] not because nobody talks about it.

[00:35:25] It's talked about quite often.

[00:35:28] But the thing I'm interested in,

[00:35:30] I can't remember where I saw this post

[00:35:32] but someone was predicting like essentially a flood

[00:35:35] coming of fast, cheap softwares, right?

[00:35:38] Like I know from your industry

[00:35:40] one of the hard things is like if you build

[00:35:43] the main structure of your software,

[00:35:46] people who are coming in two, three years from now

[00:35:48] are gonna have the advantage, right?

[00:35:50] Because they're gonna have the newest platform.

[00:35:52] They're gonna be able to do things.

[00:35:54] So it's only gonna increase in speed

[00:35:56] at the way people can produce these software solutions

[00:35:59] and business solutions.

[00:36:01] When you're looking down the pipe over the next five years,

[00:36:03] how do you think these resources and the speed

[00:36:08] is gonna affect your specific industry?

[00:36:11] Yeah.

[00:36:11] I think AI and technology in general

[00:36:14] is on such a steep exponential curve.

[00:36:18] It's really challenging to predict.

[00:36:20] So every time I talk about it,

[00:36:22] I'm like, well, this is gonna age well.

[00:36:23] We'll see.

[00:36:23] We'll see looking back on this in a couple of years.

[00:36:26] But the way we've been thinking about it most recently

[00:36:29] is I think you're absolutely right that

[00:36:32] there's going to be an influx of fast development

[00:36:38] that will probably drive the cost down on software

[00:36:40] and all that stuff.

[00:36:41] But it goes back to what I was saying.

[00:36:44] In a lot of ways,

[00:36:45] Jim's software has already flooded

[00:36:47] with cheap software and commoditized.

[00:36:49] I mean, we make very robust software

[00:36:54] and we charge a couple hundred bucks a month.

[00:36:57] So it's already in some ways at that point.

[00:37:01] The way we stay ahead of innovation and development

[00:37:04] is through the combination of a really talented

[00:37:09] and sophisticated technology team

[00:37:11] and the actual insight and experience

[00:37:14] as an approach we add to the market.

[00:37:16] The Jiu-Jitsu, vertical and yoga now

[00:37:20] and even still CrossFit is a good example of that.

[00:37:22] Like we aren't winning because we built

[00:37:26] payment processing and class scheduling

[00:37:27] better than other people.

[00:37:29] We're winning because we're pushing the boundaries

[00:37:31] of the new ideas and the innovation

[00:37:33] and the experiences that clients are having

[00:37:35] in these industries.

[00:37:36] We're trying to change those verticals.

[00:37:39] And so I think it'll become easier

[00:37:41] for people to catch up to us maybe.

[00:37:43] But from a development innovation standpoint,

[00:37:46] I think we're still seeing a ton of opportunity

[00:37:50] with that kind of creativity

[00:37:52] that's not necessarily being destructive.

[00:37:54] And then I think the other angle

[00:37:56] is just fitness industry in general

[00:37:58] and how AI is going to change that industry.

[00:38:00] And I think right now at least,

[00:38:03] I'm very of the idea that fitness

[00:38:06] is one of the most human-centric industries

[00:38:11] that I think will remain that way.

[00:38:13] The parallel in my mind is what happened

[00:38:16] at the beginning of COVID.

[00:38:17] People were just telling us like,

[00:38:19] and we didn't know either.

[00:38:20] We were like in-person gyms are done.

[00:38:23] People started having to work out at home

[00:38:26] and now why would they ever go back to a gym?

[00:38:28] And every metric across the board

[00:38:32] from our customers and our business

[00:38:33] is above where it was before COVID.

[00:38:36] And so I think with AI,

[00:38:38] more and more people are going to spend

[00:38:41] more time surrounded by technology and fitness,

[00:38:44] I hope just doesn't devolve into one of those things.

[00:38:47] From a personal standpoint,

[00:38:49] I spend all day on Zoom now.

[00:38:50] And I think one of my most social hours of the day

[00:38:55] is when I go into my gym and talk to the people there.

[00:38:59] So we are going to do our best

[00:39:00] to leverage the advancements in technology

[00:39:03] to help gym owners make more money

[00:39:06] and get more people into the gym.

[00:39:08] But right now, I don't see it completely replacing

[00:39:12] a lot of the human element of an opportunity

[00:39:16] and responsibility that gym owners have to help people.

[00:39:19] Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting

[00:39:21] you look back at the past few years

[00:39:23] and how everyone was just...

[00:39:26] Not everyone, a lot of people were so easily

[00:39:28] just threw up their hands like,

[00:39:29] this is it, this is it, we're done.

[00:39:32] It's never coming back.

[00:39:34] I got emails from my email list

[00:39:36] after particular ones,

[00:39:37] two separate people I remember emailing me

[00:39:39] and been like,

[00:39:40] I've been in this industry for 30 years, man,

[00:39:42] and I'm telling you right now,

[00:39:43] this is the end of the gyms.

[00:39:44] It was too hard to get people in before

[00:39:46] and get them committed.

[00:39:47] You just sound so jaded.

[00:39:49] So jaded, right?

[00:39:50] Yeah.

[00:39:50] And I was like,

[00:39:52] I don't think you're right, man.

[00:39:53] I think gyms are going to...

[00:39:55] We don't know for sure during that time,

[00:39:56] but it was pretty...

[00:39:57] The pandemic's not going to last forever.

[00:39:59] People are going to go back

[00:40:01] and I think people just need that out,

[00:40:04] especially with the remote work.

[00:40:05] You're right.

[00:40:06] It's something that's really important

[00:40:08] from a health perspective

[00:40:09] for people to get out

[00:40:10] and be part of the community.

[00:40:11] Thank you.

[00:40:12] And you look at...

[00:40:13] You can... Sorry, just to touch on it really quick.

[00:40:16] I think there's also similar to the idea

[00:40:19] of how can fitness business learn

[00:40:21] from other fitness businesses.

[00:40:22] There's still...

[00:40:24] It's not a see remote fitness is the enemy,

[00:40:28] come back to my gym work.

[00:40:29] It's like, well, what can you learn from that?

[00:40:31] And so one of the things when we talk

[00:40:32] about creating a hybrid experience

[00:40:34] for our businesses

[00:40:35] is learn from the benefits

[00:40:38] of digital interaction.

[00:40:39] So we have features like the ability

[00:40:43] to program with video

[00:40:45] that people can see outside of class.

[00:40:46] Or one of my favorites is

[00:40:47] we launched last year was in-app chat.

[00:40:49] So people from classes

[00:40:52] or the entire gym

[00:40:53] or coaches to clients one-on-one

[00:40:55] can chat via our app.

[00:40:56] And it's changed so much

[00:40:59] the way our customers

[00:40:59] are interacting with their clients.

[00:41:01] And they're like, okay, now I actually can

[00:41:04] serve my client content

[00:41:06] or interaction at 9 p.m.

[00:41:09] when they're not in my gym anymore

[00:41:11] and learn from that opportunity

[00:41:14] to have some sort of digital engagement

[00:41:17] with your clients.

[00:41:18] Yeah, one of the things that I...

[00:41:20] If I was still coaching gym owners

[00:41:22] what I would present is really kind of

[00:41:24] pulling together people by interests.

[00:41:27] If people like to run

[00:41:28] because the difference is now

[00:41:30] it's like you got to embrace the fact

[00:41:31] that the gym is no longer

[00:41:33] the centerpiece of someone's health

[00:41:34] and wellness.

[00:41:36] It's more diverse now.

[00:41:37] They have a lot of options.

[00:41:39] So you got to embrace,

[00:41:40] you can't fight it.

[00:41:41] You just have to kind of

[00:41:42] almost harness it in a way.

[00:41:44] If people want a rucking community,

[00:41:46] provide that community.

[00:41:47] You don't have to be the one

[00:41:47] providing the ruck.

[00:41:48] Just provide the connections

[00:41:50] and the centerpiece for that to happen

[00:41:51] or running club or a pickle bell club.

[00:41:53] Whatever it may be.

[00:41:55] Just embrace it and make

[00:41:57] and keep yourself kind of centerpiece

[00:41:59] within those communications

[00:42:00] and the community aspect.

[00:42:01] I think that's really critical.

[00:42:03] I mean, do you guys provide tools

[00:42:04] for that type of thing

[00:42:05] to keep the community

[00:42:07] tied together outside of the gym?

[00:42:09] Yeah, I would say indirectly

[00:42:11] but absolutely.

[00:42:12] I think the digital leaderboard,

[00:42:16] the in-app chat,

[00:42:17] just the thing that you're engaging

[00:42:19] on the same digital platform

[00:42:22] and then give the gym owner

[00:42:23] just the tools to send

[00:42:25] the communications related

[00:42:27] to all those things.

[00:42:28] So we don't have yet

[00:42:31] like really specific features

[00:42:33] to enable those kinds of things.

[00:42:35] But altogether, our gyms are able

[00:42:37] to create a lot stronger communities.

[00:42:39] There's cool examples though

[00:42:42] practically how to do that

[00:42:43] with our software.

[00:42:43] So really simple examples

[00:42:45] just we have the feature

[00:42:47] to easily tag in an organ as clients.

[00:42:50] But just that,

[00:42:51] the example they're giving

[00:42:52] is a great way to do that.

[00:42:53] Like we send out a survey

[00:42:55] see who's training

[00:42:57] for some sort of running race this year.

[00:42:59] And then we turn off all those clients

[00:43:00] and you have a really easy way

[00:43:01] to group them in an in-app chat

[00:43:03] or email them

[00:43:04] or plan an event around them.

[00:43:06] And so just a lot of gym owners

[00:43:10] underutilize their software

[00:43:11] because it's just not again,

[00:43:12] it's not why they got into

[00:43:14] running a fitness business.

[00:43:15] Like I get that.

[00:43:16] But learn how to just like the way

[00:43:19] if you were a really good weightlifter

[00:43:22] but you struggled at gymnastics,

[00:43:23] don't like stop doing gymnastics

[00:43:25] like focus on them,

[00:43:26] get better at it.

[00:43:27] And so if you don't love technology

[00:43:28] or you don't really love

[00:43:30] configuring of gym software,

[00:43:33] go study it and get better at it

[00:43:35] and get on a call with the team

[00:43:36] to help coach you on it.

[00:43:38] Awesome.

[00:43:39] Well, I want to give a few minutes

[00:43:41] as we kind of butt up on time here

[00:43:43] but you know,

[00:43:44] I consider you technologists

[00:43:45] whether you consider yourself that or not

[00:43:47] inconsequential because I'm saying it.

[00:43:49] But as you kind of zoom back

[00:43:51] on like the industry overall

[00:43:53] like what kind of technology

[00:43:54] or trends or things

[00:43:56] that you're seeing

[00:43:57] like what has you most excited

[00:43:58] and optimistic right now?

[00:43:59] Yeah, so there's a couple things

[00:44:01] but the first thing somewhat

[00:44:02] tied to your AI question is

[00:44:05] I would say AI and data, big data

[00:44:08] like combining those two things

[00:44:10] to create the firm I've been using

[00:44:14] is technology with human intervention

[00:44:19] and I now have an anecdote

[00:44:21] that exemplifies it perfectly

[00:44:22] so I'll share that with you

[00:44:23] but I think what I'm really excited about

[00:44:25] is like that kind of powerful technology

[00:44:27] not replacing human engagement

[00:44:30] but providing a more effective way

[00:44:34] to do it.

[00:44:34] And so the example to share is

[00:44:36] we released a feature called

[00:44:37] Wattify Retain.

[00:44:39] It takes our,

[00:44:40] we have a retention intelligence team

[00:44:41] of engineers who just study our data

[00:44:45] and apply really advanced technology

[00:44:47] to create features out of it

[00:44:48] and so this retain feature

[00:44:49] predicts and prevents client churn.

[00:44:51] So you looked at billions of data points

[00:44:53] and then we created formulas

[00:44:55] and tested them to see

[00:44:56] which indicators make it most likely

[00:44:58] that someone's about to cancel

[00:44:59] way before you know whether or not

[00:45:00] they actually want to cancel

[00:45:02] and then we surface that to gym owners

[00:45:04] in a way for them to take action on it.

[00:45:05] Now we could have used AI

[00:45:07] to identify who might cancel

[00:45:10] send them some automated communication

[00:45:12] based on you know their profile information

[00:45:14] like we could have tried to automate

[00:45:15] the whole thing but we didn't.

[00:45:16] We were like let's help gym owners intervene

[00:45:19] and one of the stories

[00:45:21] that came out of this gym owner contact us

[00:45:23] and they were like

[00:45:23] oh my god this feature was so helpful

[00:45:25] I got, I had a task

[00:45:27] I called my client

[00:45:28] and I realized one of their parents

[00:45:30] had passed away

[00:45:31] I have like an hour long phone call with them

[00:45:34] and then all the coaches signed a card

[00:45:35] and sent it to them

[00:45:37] and that's just an example

[00:45:38] of how there are certain things

[00:45:40] technology will never do

[00:45:41] you know and it's just a really good

[00:45:43] like human story.

[00:45:45] So I think yeah I think

[00:45:46] I think what I'm optimistic about

[00:45:48] is technology being able to create

[00:45:49] more moments like that

[00:45:50] and give these really passionate

[00:45:53] business owners an opportunity

[00:45:55] to do what they're really good at

[00:45:56] and what they love

[00:45:57] and then I think the other thing

[00:45:59] that I'm personally excited about

[00:46:00] that I think what if I was doing

[00:46:01] a better and a better job of every day

[00:46:03] is we are giving gym owners

[00:46:06] and other types of small business owners

[00:46:08] software that is pretty awesome

[00:46:11] and powerful

[00:46:12] and the example I draw is

[00:46:14] we use HubSpot in our business

[00:46:16] for our CRM

[00:46:17] and we pay 70,000 dollars a year for it.

[00:46:19] There's no world

[00:46:21] in which most gym owners

[00:46:22] are buying HubSpot

[00:46:23] and we release features

[00:46:24] we just updated our tasks feature

[00:46:26] and I look at it

[00:46:27] and I'm like this can go toe to toe

[00:46:29] with HubSpot

[00:46:29] and I think there's a lot of

[00:46:30] you know we're never go HubSpot's

[00:46:32] a publicly traded company

[00:46:33] like we're never gonna have all of the

[00:46:35] but we're trying to build

[00:46:37] really some sophisticated software

[00:46:41] and be able to give it to gym owners

[00:46:42] for as low of a cost as possible

[00:46:44] and that gets me excited.

[00:46:46] Yeah awesome man what do you

[00:46:48] uh this is always the last question

[00:46:50] I ask but you know

[00:46:52] what do you as a CEO

[00:46:53] as a company like

[00:46:55] what do you guys need right now

[00:46:56] what's important to you

[00:46:57] as an industry

[00:46:58] how can we help you guys

[00:47:00] and what would you like to hear

[00:47:01] from people about?

[00:47:02] Yeah I think you know if

[00:47:03] anyone's listening to this

[00:47:05] and already uses

[00:47:06] Wotify

[00:47:08] we are obsessed with customer feedback

[00:47:10] so please tell us

[00:47:12] what we're doing well

[00:47:13] what we can be doing better.

[00:47:14] Most of our customers

[00:47:15] know my email address

[00:47:16] but you can email support

[00:47:17] at Wotify or Brendan at Wotify

[00:47:19] and we

[00:47:21] we didn't really get into this

[00:47:22] but just really quickly like

[00:47:23] our company is bootstrapped

[00:47:25] so we have no outside investors

[00:47:27] what that means is our investors

[00:47:29] are and just give us 30 minutes

[00:47:31] to learn about your business

[00:47:33] share some ideas

[00:47:34] our sales approach

[00:47:36] is very consultative

[00:47:37] where if you don't buy our software

[00:47:40] I hope you'll at least have learned

[00:47:41] something that you can apply

[00:47:42] to your business

[00:47:43] and I've had two valuable conversation

[00:47:46] with our with our account executives

[00:47:48] to talk to gym owners every day

[00:47:49] so we'd love to earn your business

[00:47:52] but more than anything

[00:47:53] we just love the opportunity

[00:47:54] to chat and meet you.

[00:47:56] Cool and if people

[00:47:57] want to follow you

[00:47:58] or reach out to you personally

[00:47:59] Brendan what's the best way to do that?

[00:48:02] I think probably email

[00:48:05] Brendan at Wotify.com

[00:48:06] or I don't have much of a personal brand

[00:48:10] but I'm very connected to Wotify

[00:48:11] so like our social media site

[00:48:14] we love for people to follow along

[00:48:16] and we share everything we're doing.

[00:48:17] Awesome man

[00:48:18] well Brendan thank you so much

[00:48:19] for doing this

[00:48:22] it's been a lot of fun

[00:48:23] getting your insights

[00:48:24] and now I can always jam

[00:48:25] on CrossFit related things

[00:48:27] CrossFit adjacent things all day

[00:48:29] it's been so much time

[00:48:32] in that industry

[00:48:32] it's just still kind of innate in me

[00:48:35] but yeah man

[00:48:36] it's been an absolute pleasure

[00:48:37] really appreciate what you guys

[00:48:38] are doing at Wotify

[00:48:39] and if you need anything else

[00:48:40] just let me know.

[00:48:41] Ladies and gentlemen Brendan Rice

[00:48:43] Thanks Eric, thanks for having me.

[00:48:46] Hey wait don't leave yet

[00:48:48] this is your host Eric Malzone

[00:48:50] and I hope you enjoyed

[00:48:51] this episode of Future of Feminist.

[00:48:53] If you did I'm going to ask you

[00:48:55] to do three simple things

[00:48:56] it takes under five minutes

[00:48:58] and it goes such a long way

[00:49:00] we really appreciate it.

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