Amber Burke - The Quiet Scale: Burn Bootcamp's Massive Growth Without the Noise

Hey friends, welcome to the Future of Fitness, a top-rated fitness and wellness industry podcast for over five years and running. I'm your host, Eric Malzone, and I have the honor of talking to entrepreneurs, innovators, and cutting-edge technology experts within the extremely fast-paced industries of fitness, wellness, and health sciences. If you like the show, we'd love it if you took three minutes of your day to leave us a nice supporter review wherever you consume your podcast. If you're interested in staying up to date with the future of fitness, go to futurofitness.co to subscribe and get weekly summaries dropped into your inbox. Now onto the show. One theme keeps coming up: the right technology can make or break your business. That's why I'm thrilled to introduce our new presenting sponsor, Perfect Gym. Perfect Gym isn't just another gym management system. They are part of the Sport Alliance Group, Europe's leading fitness software company that has officially entered the US market. Now, I've seen this movie before, but here's the difference. They've opened up a U.S. headquarters in Boston because they understand that the American market deserves dedicated, localized support. After digging into the platform, one benefit especially stood out. They are simplifying the nightmare that keeps business owners up at night migrations. These guys were able to migrate one mega client with more than 250 locations in six different countries in just 20 days between two payment runs. No disrupting operations, no member loss, one seamless operation that simply works. Now, if you have ever switched platforms, you know how terrifying that process can be and how truly impressive that feat is. At a high level, here's their secret sauce. They give the power back to the operator. Instead of forcing you into their closed ecosystem, their Perfect Gym Marketplace connects with over 120 integration partners. So want to use your own app, your preferred payment processor, class pass for booking? No problem. Whether you're running a single studio or managing a multi-location enterprise, Perfect Gym was built from the ground up for multi-club operations. They have invested a ton into this platform, and now they're bringing that European engineering excellence to America. The migration experts have arrived. Check out perfectgym.com where enterprise level sophistication meets operator freedom. This is where operators, founders, and health tech leaders go to get a grip on what's next. AI integration, wearable tech that drives retention, GLP1 market impact, longevity strategies, and so much more. All the stuff that is reshaping our industry right now. Three days of real conversations with people building this space, not just talking about it. You'll leave with partnerships and playbooks you can actually use. My listeners get 10% off with the code FOF10. Link in the show notes. I hope to see you there. Yeah, it's I I feel like it's long overdue. You know, I really it is.

We run in a lot of the same circles, probably have some of the same conversations. So I'm excited to do it with you here.

Yeah. Well, thank you for joining me. It's uh, you know, I've been checking out Burn for a long time. And of course, you and I run at each other at industry events. I've I capture or I consume, you know, some of the interviews are on and things like that. And uh, I just have a high appreciation for you and and organization at Burn. You guys are scaling. And I think, I don't know, maybe it's just my perspective. I feel like doing fairly quietly, like in the market. Like there's a lot of people making a lot of noise about benchmarks and how many units they sell and how many, where they're at, how many they're opening, but you guys are just seem to be heads down, you know, focused on your community, focused on the things that um are really critical to to you and and and what you need to continue to grow. It's it's good to shed light on that stuff. So we're gonna get into a lot of different things. I mean, we were just talking about what it's like to get from 250 to 400 units. Big numbers, dude. But you know, kind of maturing, I think, you know, maturing into the franchise space versus being like gyms and community focused and what that means. And we'll we'll get into uh how you define that exactly. Technology, I I don't there's not a conversation on this podcast that goes by without some kind of technology conversation.

Um just say AI right now. That way we can get it out of the way. AI. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had this little riverside clip that I put up, and it was like how many times like all the times were said, not all the times, but how many times we're saying it would like count. Oh, it was hysterical. I'm like, I got a problem. And then uh I want to get your insights on too and like the overall state of boutique and some things that have been test discussed on this this podcast and you know, off recordings and um what I hear, and just get your take as a uh you know, an operator. Okay, well, let's give me a quick background on you, Amber. So, like you're you're the COO of of Burn Bootcamp. Uh, I know you've been in the industry for a while, athlete, all these things. Like, give us give us a little bit of your evolution.

Okay. Um, highest and best. So, yes, I've always been an athlete. I started as a dancer and a gymnast, was introduced to soccer when I was in sixth grade, fell in love with it. So, as a goalkeeper through college, undergraduate in exercise science, master's in sports management, really just went to college so I could play soccer. And then I was like, I could just wear gym clothes all day as a job. This is amazing. Let's do that. So, out of college, did I was a strength and conditioning coach for Velocity Sports Performance, which was one of the very first strength and conditioning franchises, 20-ish over 20 something years ago, and loved it. So CSCS, USAW certified, CrossFit certified, group fitness, like you, if it's movement, I will do it and try it. And I just, it's just ingrained in my DNA. So as a strength conditioning coach, just my parents are entrepreneurs, they've owned their own businesses, and so along the way, I was very interested in the mechanics. How does this business work? So adopted sales and operations and facility management and kind of all of that stuff. Eventually went into HVLP with Fitness Connection. So I was with Fitness Connection for 11 years and COVID hit. You know, we closed a bunch of the gyms for for a period of time. And through that time, we got to retool some things. So one of my uh one of my peers, she and I were kind of handed the whole gym group and they were like, split this up and ops in education. It was just a good opportunity to just retool and go, how do we go a little bit deeper and stuff? So once we opened back up, traveled the the country diagnosing and treating operational issues, everything from the fitness product to the facility to nutrition to active wear to sales to everything. And so kind of finished my career at Fitness Connection in that regional operational sales support seat. But the last three years of my career at Fitness Connection, I was a member at Bern and loved it. Didn't even know that I needed it, but walked in one day, took a camp, and thought they know one, they know what they're doing. And as a certified professional, I'm like, this is refreshing. I don't have to do anything. I just have to show up. And so the value of that for me was pretty incredible. And I thought, dang, if I see this much value in this place, no wonder everyone else does. And after three years, I just thought, I think I want to work here. And so I applied for a job that I didn't want. They offered it to me and I very nicely turned it down. But thankfully, they kept talking to me. And I worked with Victoria Sarisi at the time. She was our uh VP of Culture. And I just gave her a job description and I said, Hey, based on my experience as a member and what I've seen and a consumer and my observations and what I think might be happening behind the scenes. Here's what I think I can do for you. And Morgan took a chance on me, and so we kind of created a seat, and that was four and a half years ago.

So yeah. Great story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I got to interview Devin, I think it was like a couple years ago with Eddie on Athletec. And intense isn't the right word. Because that implies like it's all positive. Like it's an incredible amount of positive energy flowing through one person. And uh I guess it's just very energizing, I guess would be the the the better term. But you can tell this this dude's he's focused. Like there, there's there's big aspirations. He's not doing anything small, right? I haven't I haven't talked to Morgan. I don't know if she's similar or she compliments him in a different way.

Completely opposite.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that would be my assumption, right? With any kind of couple. Okay, it's like you got to have some kind of counterbalance within a relationship.

Well, it's very funny. So I don't know if you're familiar with culture index, but his culture index is daredevil. And very few of the population have this particular culture index. And he is, it is so amazing. You know, you read the tea leaves of some of these things and you see how people are anticipated to show up. And then when it actually happens, you're like, awesome. And the cool thing is Morgan, Devin, and I, as the C-suite at Byrne, you know, we meet for five or six hours every single month and just sometimes it's hammering things out. And sometimes it's Morgan and I against Devin and Devin and I against Morgan and Morgan and Devin against me. But it's just all of our profiles in the way that we work together are very complimentary. And he is big and audacious and driven. And there are non-negotiables and culture is a big thing. You better be a champion. You better demand excellence. And, but it all comes wrapped around failure's okay when we're striving for the best. Failure's not okay when it's because we didn't try or because we compromised in some way. We lost some of the integrity that we might have and whatever it was. And so that's the positive side of that. It's not fear leadership. It's what can't we do type of leadership, which can be exhilarating and also scary as hell. And so, you know, Morgan and I tend to be, we're the people that he drops the vision bomb and we operationalize it and go, we either can or can't. Um, and part of the maturation of the organization. And a great kudos to Devin and Morgan is their maturity over time is really what has kept burn. We don't have capital. We're, we're a single entity. Own, we cash funded, we run this business, and they trust us as leaders to give them the right information, to, to be spontaneous, to be disciplined, to go find it if we don't have it, to, you know, make mistakes, but in the best way, then learn from them, just don't do it again. So it's a it's a pretty cool environment to be in.

Yeah. And that's you mentioned that about, you know, no capital raisings, like that. That's probably why, at least from my perspective, it doesn't float across my desk very often, right? Because those are the big headlines.

Yeah.

Everyone wants to see a big valuation, everyone wants to see a big uh transaction take place. And, you know, and you guys have just been crushing it.

So we we did spend this year like thinking of it and going through it and you know, kind of working with some potential people, but at the end of the day, you know, it just it just didn't feel right. And we just thought we're just gonna keep plugging along. So yeah.

Well, you know, it uh everything has a trade-off, everything in life, right? There's no there's nothing that's the perfect solution for anything in life. I've firmly believe that now. But you know, I've seen a lot of I've I've seen it go south so many times. It's like you get a big valuation, you get all this money, expectations are high, right? Maybe the valuation was done at a high point within the you know, the the whole environment around your business and and cultural shifts and all these things that happen, and it can really get ugly. It's stressful. Because now you have you gotta go.

Yeah.

And you gotta go at a speed that maybe uh may break you if you're not if you're not ready for it. So yeah, I think it's it's prudent. But also if you get the right investors, right, who maybe come from the burn community and they they they want to see you do it right and they just want to support it and be a part of it, then that's great too. So I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a money guy.

If you saw the car I drove, you would realize a gatehead operator, and that's just what I do.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, what I like about uh, you know, a conversation with you is that you've been a coach, you've been an athlete, you've been a trainer. Like that's kind of rare. And then to get up to a C-suite of a company like that, you don't really see it. And I think it it's brings such a great perspective because you actually understand what it takes to create behavior change. And that's ultimately kind of what we do, right? I mean, we sell a lot of things, but really we're helping people change their behaviors and then for, you know, get into a better way of life. And you know, how is that? I guess this is kind of a broad question, but how do you feel like that served you as a COO or maybe people who didn't have that experience may not have seen things that you've seen?

Yeah. Um, it's funny. I always I feel like I've had the forest gump experience in my professional career, just like right place at the right time with the right people and being open to things, having parents that were entrepreneurs. There's there's that spirit in me. And I'm a lifelong learner. When I was in graduate school, I taught four classes and I just love it. I love to educate, I love to learn. And so I think that's that's what drives me. And then, you know, I loved training, I loved being a coach. So I loved understanding what people needed and working with them to see their achievement and the validation that came from that. All of that just transfers into my the team underneath me now. So instead of clients that I'm training physically for change, it's how do I impact the people that are beneath me professionally or maybe even personally? How do I develop them into better leaders? How do we continue to work through challenges of candid conversations, radical candor, all the leadership elements that, you know, Jocko talks about and then everybody talks about, like the doing of those things with the coach kind of mentality inside me that just is transferred to that team. And if I can do anything by for my team, it's helping them not have to go through the same learnings of mistakes. If they can, if I can transfer that knowledge to them and they can get ahead quicker and faster, which is still a benefit to me. It's still a benefit to our franchise partners and it's still a benefit ultimately to our communities. Because if we're scaling faster with less mistakes, then it costs less and it happens quicker with a higher degree of efficacy. And so that's that's kind of what I've taken from it. And it probably could be derived from a music teacher or people that just teach anything they're passionate about. Mine just happens to be in the fitness space, but those are that's the transfer for me.

Yeah. I like that. So before we get into the growth and the challenges that you you have on your plate right now, the opportunities I will say. What makes burn special? Like what's the secret sauce? What what do you how do you describe that to people?

The product. People, I mean, we're still fitness, you know, and and I think there is really no secret. It's we do fitness really well every camp, every location, every day. And I'm now almost eight years as a consumer, and I still get butterflies before athletic conditioning because I'm like, this is gonna be real hard. This is gonna be real hard. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be 45 minutes, and I'm gonna be done. And I'll say a few poor little words, but I'm not gonna die.

Yeah, yeah. Right. So even after so many sessions, right? You've probably done this so many times.

And uh even, I mean, I was a division one athlete. I have done hard physical things. I did a bodybuilding show just because when I turned 40 to check that bucket, and that was hard. To I think again, this goes back to why I'm so passionate about the brand. If if I know what's behind the curtain in regards to fitness and nutrition and all the things, but I still find value in this as a service because I don't have to take care of the majority of my physical training. I just have to make sure that I'm eating right and hydrated and taking the right vitamins and stuff like that. So that's what we do. That's what we provide for people. And the motivation of if I just show up and walk into camp, it's all I just feel like it just happens. That's the magic. It's the community of women that are there. And now, you know, we're co-ed, so we have men and women, but it's majority women still. We started as female only. There's no mirrors in our gym. There's no screens. There's a trainer that's kicking ass and still doing it with every single mod that you might need, with, and that's up or down, regardless. You know, I've got rheumatoid arthritis, my left knee is a disaster. So if I'm not feeling it that day and they are noticing something's going on, this is what we call personal training in a group setting. They'll come over. We use mics, so because some of our gyms are pretty big, they'll take the mic down and go, hey, what's going on? Okay, this is your modification for today. Or if I didn't pick up the right weights, they'll come over and go, Hey, you need the 50s over there. Okay, great. Right. So, and it's it's I need that. I want that. And they're doing that with 50, 60 people in camp. And if I feel like I'm getting personal training in a group setting and it meets me every day where I need it to be, and I'll pay for that all day long. And I think that's what our community does. And then everything else is just a byproduct of that. Meeting friends, our child watch, that's the other. If there was a secret sauce, the fact that we have free child watch. So, you know, kids are making friends. We'll have moms that are like, I did not want to come today, but my child had to come see their friend, so here I am. You know, just another layer of accountability that doesn't happen everywhere. But yeah, I mean, we have a kick-ass product, and that's what we're selling. We we are a for-profit business.

So yeah, yeah, I love it. So you um you've been in Worth and Wet for four years-ish and change?

Yeah, four and a half, yeah.

And so you started um, I think you said with with 250.

Yeah. Just about 250. Yeah, we're getting ready to open 400.

Okay. Those are like that that range when you go from 250 to 400, a lot of things happen right now. If you want to get from 400, I think to what was what was the goal I was reading about was like 10,000. Is it 10,000?

Okay.

Seven souls. Yeah, why not? Plug it, right? 10,000. Let's go. So getting from there to I don't know, you know, if you want to get 400 to whatever the major milestone you guys have decided next, a thousand?

Yeah, six or seven. We'll we'll hit seven. Let's get to seven.

Okay. Yeah. Like, calm down.

I'll operationalize the vision bomb of 10,000. Let's get to 700.

Yeah. Okay. So tell me, how have your challenges changed as a COO? Like what's different now than it was four years ago? What do you foresee for the next four years of the challenges you're going to face as well?

We we grew up. Um, so we went from, you know, kind of toddler stage to preteen to, you know, we're a young adult in in the franchise space, also as a fitness concept and a boutique fitness concept. We had to look at internally our operations and go, do we have the right people in the seats to take us from 250,300 to 600, 700? That's that's been the biggest question over the last 12 to 18 months. And it's the big, it's the big areas, franchise development, finance, and technology. That's really what takes us into the future. We got to make sure our balance, our budgets are balanced and we understand what our goals need to be, how many members do we need to be, how many gyms is that, how do we get there? That all of that feeds in into the marketing team to go make sure that our advertising agency, our sister company, Burn Media Co., has they have their marching orders, leads, and that starts at the franchise development funnel. And so to get to 10,000 locations, I can't do it with ones and twos. I can't sell one and two gyms at a time. Like we've got to get to a place where we have, you know, maybe five packs, 10 packs, all still maintaining the integrity of who we are, though. And that's that's the balance. And that's where we will never let go of that. And so franchise development's been, we've upgraded in that seat with Ed Yancey. He comes to us with about 30 years in franchising. He was one of the original Jersey Mike's franchise partners. Okay. When it started, he's Duncan Brands, Blaze Pizza. So he's brought a wealth of information to us. We've retooled the operations team and the franchise development team to make sure that the Fran Dev team is a is the full pipeline. So they control not only acquisition, but as well as all the way down to retention, which is important because now the risk management piece of that maintains operating locations. I don't want to just go sell a bunch and then not open them or go sell a bunch, open them, and they're a disaster and then I end up closing them. That's that's not who we want to be. And then in technology, because it is lightning speed and everything is shiny and pretty and fancy and all the things, like we got to have discipline. We have to make sure that we understand why we are investing in this technology, what ultimately is it gonna do for us? And it's either risk analysis with costing us less money and increasing efficiency, or it's catapulting us into a marketing area or an audience, whether in FRANDEV or membership gain, that a space that's gonna really have two or three X the return on it. And so whether that's the whether the tool is a CRM in the nurture process or it's fishing in a pond. That we haven't been able to fish in before? What's the look and feel of that? What's the frictionless experience? Consumer behavior. What are where are they showing up? Because at the end of the day, our brick and mortars are still always going to be a high-touch people service. And that's hard to do when you're when the when the tease of technology can come in and go, well, we can do that for you. Oh, we can do that for you. Well, where's the threshold where that actually devalues your service? And so that's the discipline that we want to maintain, especially in the boutique space. Because it's we just have stuff you pick up and put down, right? You can have that, I have that in my garage, but I still want to go and be with my community and have Ashley yell at me and you know do the things. So that's friend dev tech, and then, you know, like I said, with finance. So all of those three pieces are super critical. Um, and then all of that can means that our operator, our operations team understands how to use those things and paint them into the process execution. So the the BA, Burn Ambassador, who's our that's what we call our front desk staff. If they are the person that works three camps a week, mostly on Friday evening, which is the least popular time for people to come to camp, just because they want a half price membership, they have to be able to execute and turn a trial into a member just as well as the as the franchise partner, because that lead costs the same amount of money to that franchise partner. Just because somebody comes in on a Friday night does not mean they're less valuable. And we can't let those people walk out the door because the AUVs franchise speak, you know, for average unit volume at the end of the year. We're averaging over 700,000 right now. And that means validation. So this is all a cycle. So the 250 to 400, the learnings in high sight is is how do we operate as a well-oiled franchise? And our non-negotiable is to maintain the integrity of our brand and not get distracted along the way.

It's not easy. It's easy to say. Right. Ed uh Ed Yancey, was that his name? Yeah. So the guy who, you know, Jersey Boys and a bunch of other franchises. You know, the question I have all the time. I've heard a lot of different opinions on this, but are fitness franchises different? Like than, you know, a Subway sandwich or whatever? Because I mean, let's face it, like you can open a McDonald's and the smell of french fries is gonna draw people in. Like, not you open a fitness franchise and it's cool, but like people like still have to come in and work hard. It's not as easy to sell, right? And I think to be an operator, you can't be, you gotta be there. You gotta be present, you know, to be an owner operator. So yeah, I'm curious. I mean, what have you learned from his experience about how maybe this industry is a little different? Today's episode of The Future of Fitness is proudly brought to you by EGIM, a vertically integrated market leader in the fitness and health industry with an incredible vision, transforming healthcare from repair to prevention. I've been a huge fan of E-Gym's team and technology for years now, and I can tell you that their commitment to innovation is unparalleled within our industry. Here's what makes EGM so special. They partner with companies to improve employee health by providing access to fitness and health facilities. Then they equip those facilities with cutting-edge smart gym equipment and digital solutions. The benefits are clear. Companies see reduced healthcare costs and increased productivity, while fitness facilities benefit from a growing engaged membership base. What really excites me is EGM's smart fitness ecosystem. By combining their strength equipment with AI-powered software in their corporate wellness platform Wellpast, they are leading the shift to proactive preventative health. This isn't just AI for show. This is the real deal. If you're interested in learning more about eGim and how they're transforming healthcare through exercise, visit eGym.com. That is EGYM.com.

Yeah. The answer to your first question is, is it different? Is yes, it is different. Where it's different though matters. I don't think the deviation in technology is as far from QSR and fitness as the experience and selling the product is much farther away from the experience. Because to your point, I can walk in somewhere, pick something off the shelf, buy it, and it meets my needs, and I'm happy and my dopamine just hit and I'm great, right? In fitness or any service, long-term service, but mostly fitness, because it's we're selling someone the idea that they're going to show up and do the work, even if we're providing it. But at the end of the day, we're selling them their own ability to adhere to a program. Like if you were to say, hey, I'm going to charge you 150 bucks a month for you to get in your car, drive to the gym, pick up the weights, put them down, drink the right water, eat the right food, take the right vitamins, you're going to pay me even though you're doing all of that. Like if we really reduced it to the ridiculous, that's what we're selling.

That is what we're selling. And that does sound ridiculous. Yeah.

It does, doesn't it? Like, hey, pay me to do something that you haven't been able to do on your own, but I'm going to be in, you know, so, and that's what they're paying for, right? This, the leadership of being able to say, okay, I'm not doing this on my own because I have this whole community, but still, it's not the same. So operationally, the way that we talk to people, how we look and feel, especially with social media and our web design and in our CRM as we're following up and nurturing how we're equipping people to ask for the sale, but it not to feel salesy. That's a very different mentality. So it is different, but I think it's situationally different depending on, you know, is finance inherently different? No. So that's where I would say the focus in your marketing and in the operational process is definitely different.

Yeah, you know, uh, on that same thought before recording, we're talking about some other friends we know in the franchise space, fitness franchise space. And one of them always tells me, like, if someone comes to them and they're like, Yeah, I'm looking at a fast food franchise or an auto parts franchise, and you guys, they're like, Yeah, maybe this isn't a good fit.

Like, is that I mean, is that you know what I mean? So I'm a I'm a I'm gonna question box. So I would say, tell me why you're looking at those three things. What of those three things appeal to you? Because they could say, one, I want an investment. Okay, cool. We all check that box. We're all an investment. Okay, tell me the next thing that's appealing to you. Well, you know, I want to set it and forget it. I build the building, hire the people, you know, and then I just tally my bank account, we're not for you. Then that would be a red flag. But if they're like, well, I love my community and I'm, you know, I'm on the chamber of commerce and I have this other business and my brother-in-law does this, and my okay, now we're okay, we're still in this. All right, we're still in the fight. Tell me a little bit more, right? Do you like fitness? Is this something? Yeah, you know, I was a college athlete and I've always just loved it. I don't do it. I don't know how to do it, but I've always just loved it. And I, okay, yeah, we're we're still in it. So that is kind of how we look at it. We are not an absentee owner. We can have remote ownership. So one of our our franchise partners, Scott Tobin, he has the most number of locations right now. He's 12 and he's multi-state and remote because he doesn't live in 12 different areas, but you know, he's Virginia, North Carolina, um, and he does it really well. And he's he's hired the right people underneath him who have the same amount of passion for the brand. And that speaks to why we've been able to do it so quietly, is people like me show up one day and go, shit, I didn't know that I needed that. I love this. And almost eight years later, I'm still loving it. And so changed my life personally and professionally. And members go, This is uh, this is awesome. So most of our franchise partners were members. We are now starting to get into the investor space because at almost 400 locations. People are starting to go, who are you guys? You know, like what's going on over there? I did an executive review call. Morgan and I speak to every potential franchise partner and spoke to just an amazing man. He's been in the real estate business industry for a really long time, wicked smart, referred to us by his new granddaughter-in-law. She's a member, can't say enough about it. He's a smart businessman and goes, I should have one of those. So when we spoke with him, it was, we could tell, tons of transferable skills and he has buildings. He's like, Yeah, I could put three in right now. Real estate's one of our most, one of the biggest challenges for us. So he's marking all these boxes. And for us, Morgan and I, it was a no right now, because I would I need him to go and really see what burn is personally. I need him to go really, truly understand it because he's gonna be relying on someone else to run those gyms. And so he did that and it worked out great. And, you know, we're gonna move forward. So those are just the fail-safes. Like, I want to protect people and their investment. This is their financial legacy, and it's important to us that we set each other up for a success. Cause you know, we're signing five-year contracts and they're signing 10-year leases. So it's a big deal. So we want to get it right.

Yeah. Yeah. I I think I read that was at 80% or something like that of your franchises come from members.

Yeah. That's and they'll move. They'll move if they're in a densely populated area. They'll say they'll move their whole family to go open one, which is a testament and scary and exciting. Yes. Yeah.

Wow. It just reminds me of, you know, I was I was in CrossFit for pretty early and uh just the excitement and the devotion to that community and what it, you know, like dude, the phone just rang for five years, whether it was referrals or people wanting to get into it. And then I don't know how it's gotten to where it is now, a whole nother topic.

But, you know, it just reminds me that that it's still another podcast just to talk about.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, how many of my coaches or people or members decided to go open a GM? That's how what I did, right? I got I started in one and then and I'm moving out of town because I I moved from San Francisco to Santa Barbara because there wasn't one really established in that city yet. Like that was how I made my decision. So went there, planted my flag, and you know, uh went for it. And uh that that's that's a that's crazy. Now I think about it in that lens, I'm like, that's crazy that I did that. Like, why would I do that? And I was just bought in.

Yeah.

I loved it.

I mean, people but people do that for all kinds of things. You know, for school, for a you know, for other jobs. Like, so it I don't think it's it's crazy, but you know, I I just feel Morgan and I feel just such and Devin too. We just feel a high sense of responsibility for our members and they're our family. We call them franchise partners. Our legal team does not like that we call them franchise partners, and they want them to be franchisees, but they're our partners.

So yeah, legal.

That is people.

That was people. Whole other conversation. I want so I want to talk about the expansion opportunities for you guys. I mean, um, I think I yeah, I was driving from Whitefish to Kalispel on 93 South. And if anyone knows this area, it's not where you expect a fitness franchise to pop up. I saw a sign, I think I texted you. I'm like, holy shit, like what are you guys doing in Kalispell on 93 South?

We had somebody move.

Well, is that what it is? Yeah.

A member that moved out there, and she was like, There's no burn, and I can't live without burn, so I'm just gonna open one.

Okay. All right, maybe I'll swing by. Uh what where are you guys seeing the market opportunities for expansion? Is it, you know, are you looking at globally? Are you looking at domestically, maybe within C markets, B markets, 93 South and Kalispell? Like what's what's the what's the opportunity?

There will always be a driver of people going, hey, I'm moving here, and there's no burn, so I'm gonna open one. So there's there's that. But no, we have our markets, then the Northeast still has plenty of room, South Florida, plenty of room for us, Texas, and then West, just kind of everything west for us because we were born in Charlotte, so we're going east to west. Yeah. I mean, we're just looking at anywhere that has population density with about 50,000, you know, our GIS tools, looking at certain demographics and psychographics. One of the cool things about us is we have, you know, we we can be a destination because of the childcare. Because of that, we're also looking at a little bit of a bigger space. So we're 3,500, 4,000 square feet is really our sweet spot. So our overhead is slightly more than some of our competitors. And we're not, we're not a main on-main type of location either. Parking's really important, safety is really important, geographic barriers don't serve us well. Moms and dads with kids, it needs to be efficient, close to soccer, close to baseball. So we really take a look at those traffic patterns. But we can go into light industrial because people will drive there for the product and the childcare. So it gives us a little bit more flexibility in actual real estate space, but we are a sub-urbank. We don't necessarily see ourselves in hyperurban because of the cost of the square footage and continuing to have the child watch. So that's something that we've toyed with, but it doesn't feel right right now. Um, so that's kind of one of the disciplines. That's the shiny thing. Like, could we throw one in an apartment complex in downtown Charlotte and probably crush it? But it just takes us a little bit too far away from from the brand. So we're not quite ready for that.

Yeah. What about internationally? Are you guys global?

Oh, well, if we're gonna do 10,000, we're gonna have to crush it. Yeah, you know, and uh, you know, Canada, we we've teased with Canada a little bit, but yeah, I mean, ultimately we we do wanna we do want to go global. The only two brands that have hit 10,000 or more was Curves and CrossFit. And they didn't sustain it. So, you know, we wanna we know it can be done because it's been done, but we want to do it responsibly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's another another topic I want to address with you is in general, and this is, you know, once again, this is just my purview. It's not everyone, but conversation has had and about the state of boutique. And I recently did a uh quarterly report with Alex and Juliet where we talked about exponential and you know, a couple of the public companies, right? So we have no insights in into your guys' business, obviously. But the we're like, God, there's it seems to be this slowing of boutique growth, new new models coming out, new concepts. HVLP is on fire, right? Like they have to grow. There's so much private equity in that, like they have no choice. They're they're building new locations, they're expanding, right? The the gold's announcement, right, with EOS and all these things, right? So, you know, when you obviously you guys are heads down, you're focused on your mission, and you're not gonna let external factors get in the way. That I get that. I appreciate it. But at some point you got to be looking around and be like, huh, what's going on around here? Right. Like heads up a little bit. Um, so what do you what do you feel about the the current state of boutique? And I know everything's cyclical in my mind. Like the pendulum swings one way, it'll swing back another way. Consumers like certain things, there's certain things like and great operators are on in any category are gonna win. But what what's your general take right now on the state of boutique?

Mine is that I do have kind of a, I live in a bubble, you know, the burn bubble where we produce a lot of our own success because of our product and because of our members and the um just the the equity that that builds for us to be able to grow. So that's where the confidence of our growth comes from. But we are looking outside. I mean, like I said, we're gonna, if we're getting to 700 even, I've got to look at multiple investor type of opportunities. And how do we compare in the space is really the question that we continue to ask ourselves. And how do we bring that value to the market? And so I think that's again, this is just my opinion. But as I look at it and I do look at everything that's kind of going on, it's where did the value get lost? That was it too niche. You know, I've tried row house, I've tried, you know, a couple of different things, and none of this, this again, my personal opinion, but I hate stretching and I would never go into a stretch lab. I would never go into a place I'm not that consumer, but you know, I'll go into a true asshole. Go into, yeah, I'll try Brandon's Matabolic, like I'll do, you know, whatever. So it just, I'm that consumer. So it is, and it's always surprising to me some of the brands that come out and do really well because I'm like, man, people really want to pay for that. So value proposition for my lens is really what it's about. Either you've maintained the integrity of your brand and people know who you are and what you're providing. I think that's, you know, cycle in particular, I think has gone up and down a lot. We've seen a lot of different concepts, but for the most part, the consumer knows I'm gonna go ride a bike, right? And so even with Peloton and the ups and downs of Peloton, what brought them back was creating a community of consistency with the same faces on my screen. I have Peloton, I love Peloton, I ride it all the time. But it's that consistency in community and product, the consistency in community and product. And so I think if you get away from that where it's just too niche that you can't hold on to those people, like was it just fun to try for a minute, but it's not something that's really gonna sustain my fitness long term, the way that my body looks long term. And when you look at strength training, it's funny, it's so funny to me that like strength training is coming back. So it's like, no, you just should have always been doing the strength training, you know. But it's now like it feels like it's been, it's gotten a glow up and now it's it's coming back. But it's just strength training, it's what your body physiologically needs. Like that's not changed in the 25 years I've been in the industry. Remaining true to really fundamentally what fitness is, I think is also really important. And so if the majority of the experience is too much recovery, too much cardio, people are gonna find other elements that have a more comprehensive service. We only have so much time in the day. And, you know, I think that's the other thing on our product, what kind of holds us. We've got three dedicated strength days a week and three dedicated core and cardio and hit and endurance type training. So it's all I do. I mean, I'll ride the Peloton if I can't get to camp, but I don't need to do anything else. And so I think, are you able to provide a service for the lifetime value of your member that that holds on to them? So I kind of just reduce it down to kind of real simple thought processes.

Like it. So you've been in the industry for 25 years, some things haven't changed. What do you think has changed?

The availability. And like I think of class past, I think of the snackers, I think of the way that people can participate in physic in fitness, whether it's digital or just if I'm a if I've got exercise ADD and I just want to do 14 different things all the time, then that's available to people. And I think that's also hard for your standard EFT models that that do only have one thing. When you're competing against that, you might have the snacker that wants to do rowing every now and then, but they're not gonna long term have, you know, the sustainability to maintain that member three, four, five years. So I think it's the accessibility and the variety and then the the influencer space and and the way that people like the influencer gyms to me are just wild. I think it's great, like you can go in.

What do you mean influencer gym? Like where they literally are going to be able to do it.

They're gyms built for influencers. So if you think, if you fancy yourself any kind of influencer, there are gyms that are built specifically for you and they have they look like a club, they're they're kind of dark, they're edgy, and you can go in with your tripod. Everybody's filming themselves, and you know, you can take 10 minutes on the bench press to make sure you get your video for TikTok right. Like this is a thing. It's wild to me, but it's a thing.

I worry, you know, I worry. Like it the the the vast narcissism that we've created over the last since 2000s, 2007, when the iPhone came out. Well is uh it's worrisome to me. But thank you. I mean so there's trade-offs to everything, right? On the other hand, hashtag girls at lift had what like tens of millions of views last year. And I look in the gym that I go to, but I started there nine years ago, two platforms, now five. When I go in, I have to wait for a platform now, right? And it's a lot of it's young women, young men too, just younger generations overall are into the strength game, which I love. So there's that. But on the other hand, I'm like, what? What are we doing? What are we doing? It looks so ridiculous. Girl, we'll go on a trip. Sorry, this is my rant. Well, we'll go on a trip. My wife and I just went to Japan and we're like sitting there and watching people like take five minutes, like, okay, people are walking in front of a shrine, right? You're supposed to walk, pay respect, maybe take one photo. And then, of course, there's like a couple influencers who are like hogging the whole thing because they got to get the right photo.

I'm like, it's trying to be in the moment here.

You suck. I'm sorry.

You're getting all the rawness here, people.

Yeah, from my therapy session. Back on track, technology. So you're you got to make some decisions on that. How do you filter what pieces of technology you're looking at? Because there's a lot of cool stuff.

A lot of there's a lot of cool stuff, right?

So, how do how do you stay focused when you make Those decisions on.

Yeah. Um, you know, shout out to Jason Brazil. He's my VP of technology and he has spent his entire life building technology. He was, he has an association to fitness. He was uh a CrossFitter as a just a consumer. So he enjoys fitness for the most part, but you know, he's wicked smart and he understands it. And he came from grocery and franchising. And so he understands loyalty. He understands, you know, how building our app and engaging our consumers. He's got a great marketing brain. So he can work with Trish Penyar, VP of technology, really well. Marrying up those two things to ensure that whatever we're doing has a directional and profitable outcome is the way that we make those decisions. If it's just shiny and cool, that's not enough, right? Our Mark Davis, our VP of finance, he's he's gonna be like, no, I think to see the ROI. Even if it's years out, like we will make investments, we'll take risks. But at the end of the day, I we all report to the franchise partners. And so we have to make it profitable for them. Sometimes it's profitable in the way that it reduces costs. So the tech fee, you know, might we we reallocate tech fee never goes down. Sorry, womp woman, franchise partners, but we're always adding additional value to it because technology just keeps increasing in cost, whether it's, you know, the cost per dial to hit your API connection, whatever that looks like. But it's truly, if we can answer, you know, is this improving efficiencies and creating profitability, then it's probably worth doing. And then the partners that we partner with, they have to know what they're doing. So whether it's V or Alta or we were just in Chicago for the Fitness Technology Summit with Al and his team, like you gotta be in the right spaces with the people who understand your industry and then can help you answer the question of whether or not it's efficient and profitable.

Yeah, nice. I was gonna ask you for some ones that you would like to shout out, but V and Alta, I think sounds like those are you're pretty happy so far.

Yeah. We've worked with our so Burn Media Co. is our is our ad agency. They don't just service Burn, they're a they're a franchise ad agency. They've worked with Clacer AI, they've worked with a couple other companies too, and all of those kind of merged together site-wise as our GIS tool. Yeah. We have Jason always has irons in the fire, which I think is great. He's also a Daredevil, so that's fun in the technology space. All right. But, you know, he's he's got a great team underneath him. And so, you know, he has these ideas and then they have to operationalize. And then again, it always comes back to is it efficient and profitable?

Yeah. Awesome. Well, it's good to hear. I'm an advisor for VIV, so it's good to hear without you knowing that. Yeah, like um, it's good to hear positive things going on.

Yeah, we're in POC with them on uh a couple of things. So actually, Burn Media Co. is working with them with the it's we operationally we're doing engage. We're working with them with engage, and then the other product that's above that one, that's the more lead gen, I can't remember what it's called, but yeah, cool.

And if people want to talk about V, you can reach out to me too. Happy to introduce you guys. Last question, because I know time is getting tight. What do you need help with right now? Like what as an industry, if people are going to reach out to you after listening to this, what would you like to hear from people about?

Our field support, if I'm thinking just what's what operationally really is is the can be a big rub, it's getting the field support right. And so our franchise partners right now are struggling a little bit with understanding how do they assess the value of their franchise business coach. And we have a we have a fundamental playbook. We at the end of the day, it's take a look at your your KPIs. Where are you missing? What are your opportunities and what are the processes that you got to go execute? Or what's the money you got to spend, or who's the person you got to let go? Who's the person that needs some training? Like that's the fundamental business principles and coaching, but people have lives, you know, people have, you know, deaths and births and marriages and divorces. And, you know, some of our franchise partners have the full-time jobs, and this is kind of their side hustle, passion project, but they still want it to be profitable. So, you know, they want to talk about balloon arches and, you know, the fun run that they have no idea what's going to be the return on their investment. And I'm looking at their visit percent going, you can't sell people that aren't coming into your gym. What are we gonna do about that? And so those are really hard conversations to have. And, you know, I talked to a couple of different people in franchising that are doing field support, they're having a lot of the same issues. So I don't know that there is a solve, but if you're listening and you're like, man, we're dialing in this FBC thing, we're in a good spot, but I want to be in a great spot if I'm gonna have 700. And I don't, it's the scale for us too, like the sweet spot of is it 40 locations? And that's that's the max. And then so at 700, that's a lot of FBCs. Technology comes into play to scale some of the easier answered questions. You know, we're creating burn GPT right now, closed loop, easy operations manual, go find it. So there's things that will mitigate the the volume of work that the FBCs are doing because I want to optimize their skill set. And right now, I feel like we haven't quite gotten that right. So awesome.

And Amber, if people want to get a hold of you or follow you, where would you like them to go?

LinkedIn is the best for follows and stuff like that. And then just amber.burke at burnbootcamp.com.

Right on. Well, Amber, thank you so much for joining me. I'm glad uh that we finally got this done. It was really fun, and uh hopefully we'll we'll get you back in the next year or so.

Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Right on.

Hazel John, Amber Burke. Hey, wait, don't leave yet. This was your host, Eric Malzone, and I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future of Minute. If you did, I'm gonna ask you to do three simple things. It takes under five minutes and it goes such a long way. We really appreciate it. Number one, please subscribe to our show wherever you listen to it, iTunes, Spotify, Castbox, whatever it may be. Number two, please leave us a favorable review. Number three, share. Put it on social media, talk about it to your friends, send it in a text message, whatever it may be. Please share this episode because we put a lot of work into it. We want to make sure that as many people are getting value out of it as possible. Lastly, if you'd like to learn more or get in touch with me, simply go to the futurofitness.co. You can subscribe to our newsletter there, or you can simply get in touch with me as I love to hear from our listeners. So thank you so much. This is Eric Malzone, and this is the Future of Fitness. Have a great day.