(7) Jason Brown of BoxProgramming.com - The Importance of Explaining the "Why" To Your Clients

Hey cats and kittens, this is Eric with the Future of Fitness Podcast and the Fitness Marketing Alliance, and welcome back for episode number seven. So here I get to talk to Jason Brown. He was with boxprogramming.com. He is the founder and head coach there. He has carved down an interesting niche for himself and he's doing extremely well. He uh for those of you who are programming junkies like myself, this is an episode for you. He talks about his uh his training with Louis Simmons of West Side Barbell, some of his favorite references for program design, like super training by Mel Siff. And uh there's also some great business lessons in here as well. He talks about why it's so important to explain the why to your clients. And what I mean by that is telling them why you're doing a specific movement or why you're doing a specific workout a specific way, right? Get buy-in from them, which gets more engagement, which gets better retention and better overall results for your clients. So it's a really interesting point and some great tips there. It's also a great lesson in leveraging and scaling. He has done a great job of finding uh an itch that needed to be scratched, taking care of it, and then leveraging his relationships. And now he's scaling up to a global level, and it's really impressive. And Jason's just an all-around great guy. So tune in, enjoy. And I'd also like to announce in a very excited tone that uh we have our first sponsor, which is BusyBar. So it's www.busybar.co, and it's a great bar. He uh he sent some to us, and I've been eating quite a few of them. Um I enjoy all the flavors actually. And it's only one gram of sugar, right? That's huge, especially for those who are interested in uh in doing keto or uh any kind of low carb dieting. Uh it's the highest quality protein available. It's grass-fed whey protein, and it's only six net carbs and nine grams of fiber. So if you go to their website, busybar.co, b-us-y, b-ar-r dot co- and you enter in the promo code F M A 10. So that's F is in Frank, M is in Mary, A is in Arnold10, uh, you'll get 10% off. And that's for every product, every order for the rest of time. So go to the website, check it out, order something, and uh support our supporters. So without further ado, Jason Brown of boxprogramming.com everybody, this is Eric with the Fitness Marketing Alliance, and today I have the pleasure of staying with Jason Brown from Boxprogramming.com. And uh I know Jason primarily through the Two Brain Business Group and uh our friends in that group. And I'm excited to highlight him because I think he's doing some really cool stuff in the fitness industry, especially for uh people in the world of CrossFit and functional fitness. Uh, he's got a massive background in coaching and and program design, and uh, which is one of the things I love to geek out on as well. So um, Jason, thank you for coming on. And the first question I always ask everybody is what is your fitness story?

Oh man, I don't think we have enough time for that one. Um so I I've just been involved with strength conditioning for since I was a little kid. My mother was a power lifter. So I was always kind of getting taken to the gym, even when I was, I don't know, old enough to remember, five, six years old, and and seeing all these big, you know, meat heads lift weights. And um, you know, my mother was was very, very strong and and was really into it. So I think it kind of just naturally carried over to me, you know.

So it was uh what was some of your mom's some of your mom's numbers? Do you know those?

Yeah, so I I believe she had a 225 bench, and I think she was in the I don't can't can't remember her weight cost, but I think she was around the 120 to 30 pound range, you know, not you know a huge person, but she had like a 225 bench, um over over 300 pound squat and deadlift. Um, you know, and she was just really, you know, an amateur power lifter, but she was very, very strong. And and uh she used to arm wrestle all my friends in high school and you know beat them. So uh really kind of funny growing up with a mom that's you know has a six-pack and and big biceps.

Yeah, it's not normal.

No, it's not. It's not. So I think for me it kind of just like sparked that interest. And um, you know, I guess it was just more that was normal to me. You know, lifting weights was was normal, you know. So it was it was kind of cool being able to see that stuff and and actually think back on it and what it was, how I perceived it then versus you, you know, what it's actually like now. Um that's kind of funny.

So you uh so you're raised by a power lifter. Um go on through, like uh tell us you know how how you got to, I know you were in the military, but kind of progress us through that whole point to to where you are now in the world of fitness. And um Yeah, give us more detail on that. Curious.

Sure, yeah. So so the love for training was first, and then as I got into sports, I you know, I played football, I did track and field. Um, you know, going through strength and conditioning was part of that, and I was lucky enough to train with some really great strength coaches, you know, a few of which that were went on to be Division I strength conditioning coaches. Um, so I got exposed to that, and it was really more of a means of getting better at my sports, but it was really what I loved as much as, if if not more, than the actual sports I was playing was the actual training process. Um, so I I got uh to train at a facility that was local, and um, like I said, some really great coaches were working there. And I think when I was 18, one of the coaches had to leave and said, Hey, do you mind you know taking this group of they had a group of um you know guys that were in their 40s through their program? Here's their programs. Can you, you know, just make sure that if they have questions, you know, you answer their questions. And you know, I was a little nervous to do that. I had been training for a long time, but I had never coached anyone or you know, answered anyone's questions. It was more I was the one asking the questions and going through the process. Um, so when I had the opportunity to sort of train these guys and answer their questions, I realized that I actually knew more than I knew that I knew. So it was kind of a confidence builder, and I was like, wow, I really, you know, it was it was enjoyable. It was something I could see myself doing. So from there I decided to become an intern and become a certified personal trainer. I don't even remember what certification I got. I think it was the I honestly I can't even remember. It was online, what probably wasn't a very good one. Um and I started training people, interning there and more of under the supervision of other coaches and more or less kind of facilitating. I wasn't really coaching anyone, but I was asking a lot of questions and just being, you know, naturally curious. Um so that really kind of started things off for me. And I think it was in 2004 I realized that I needed to go work somewhere else on my own and start establishing my own um, you know, my own clients and my own voice. So that was during college. I was still training at the facility that I interned at, and then I was working at a commercial gym as a trainer, training, you know, some regular people, training some athletes, and um and and obviously, you know, training myself during that time, um, you know, kind of splitting time between the commercial gym and the facility that I had uh interned at. And I just happened to get exposed to CrossFit from one of the trainers that was working there, and it was like kind of one of those moments you're like, what the hell are you doing? And this was in 2006. CrossFit was not what it is now, no one knew about it. I didn't know anything about it other than the fact that this guy would be on the ground, like making weird noises after and during his workout. So it just to me was like, what is happening here that's causing that much pain? And I remember this guy was an old school bodybuilder, and he said, You're not man enough to do it. So I was like, I mean, you know, he basically called me out and I said, All right, I'll do it. And the next day he took me through the filthy 50. The day after that, he took me through Fran. And I still remember my first Fran time was 502. I did, I was really strong, I could do the thrush, was no problem. I did strict pull-ups. Um, and I was on the ground for an hour after that workout. I threw up, I mean, it was bad. I can't even that pain that I felt was something that I'll never forget. And I just didn't understand how five minutes of training could facilitate such a response. So that was, I think that has happened to a lot of people with CrossFit. I think you probably can identify with your, you know, the first moment that you went through a high-intensity workout and was, you know, basically put on the ground afterwards, that it's it's painful, but it's also like, okay, this makes me curious. I want to know what's happening here, what caused that? How did that happen? Why was it so brutal? Um, and I think a lot of that stuff back then in the strength conditioning world just wasn't there wasn't a lot about energy systems and why why is a workout like France so brutal? I think you know, we know now why it is, but back then it was it was very mysterious to me and it kind of sparked that interest. Um so yeah, I mean that's kind of how everything played out. I I uh went into the military after college. CrossFit was was a huge part of the training system for what was preparing us for what we needed to do. Um and you know, I always wanted to open a gym, but I didn't really know how. And CrossFit kind of gave me the ability to open a gym without you know needing a ton of money and and you know, everything that you need to open a regular, you know, commercial gym. So it gave me the ability to open a gym. As soon as I got out of the military, we opened our gym, we were open. I got off, I got home from a deployment, and a month later, uh, my wife and I had our gym open and running, open for business and and uh you know, starting to train people and CrossFit. Awesome.

So, how did how did you go from describe the the evolution from gym owner to what is now boxprogramming.com?

So I think really like one of the things that I had an advantage with was having the strength conditioning background and then blending that with CrossFit. I got exposed to the conjugate method in 2004, and I incurred some of the greatest success I ever had in strength training with the conjugate system. And when I started to do CrossFit, I didn't make the connection that the two were very much aligned as far as the overall goal of what they were both trying to achieve. Um, I thought that CrossFit, because it was constantly varied and more um you know, emphasis on the conditioning aspect of the thing, I thought that the two were almost separate training platforms, which in reality they're not. I know that now, I didn't know that then. But I tried to blend the two and it went really well. And there were points in time where I said, Oh, I want to try some more linear periodization, or you know, more you know, block um, you know, type where we're focusing on certain things for certain amounts of time. And um, that never really got us where we wanted to go. It never really yielded the same results. And in in combining that with CrossFit, there was also a lot of issues with that as far as overuse injuries and people feeling run down. So I think it was like 2012, I started blending them together again, even though I took a little bit of time off and experimented. And from then on, I used the conjugate system, the the basically the template for the conjugate system with energy systems work, and the two blended well together incredibly well in the sense that people are bringing up their limiting factors, they're getting healthy doses of things that they might need more, uh, more of, like the GPP pieces that they're just as important, but they're not as cool looking on paper. So we really, really emphasize bringing that those things to the forefront and building value in pushing and pulling sleds and doing loaded carries and things of that nature. And um, I think when I started with Chris Cooper when he was with 321Go, he really kind of pushed me to program. And you know, I loved programming, but I didn't know that I was good at it. Um, I knew that our clients had great results. I knew that we kept people healthy and they, you know, our injury rates were incredibly low. Um, and I knew other gyms were on to the fact that our programming was different, but I didn't know that I would be doing that for other people at that point in time. So Chris kind of kept pushing me to write content, do this, do that. And it was like kind of just a way of you know, me getting comfortable putting myself out there, which for me was never a comfortable thing. So once I started getting more comfortable with that and shooting videos and um working with my first few clients, really from there, it just kind of snowballed. I I had, I think, four clients, and then a few months later I had 25 clients, and then a few months later I had 50. Um, and it's gone pretty consistently like that since I started this back in was 2015 now. Um I think you know, there's been a lot that's changed in the time that it started this. And I think that's the great thing about programming that it's we're always getting new information, it's constantly evolving. Um but one thing that that holds the test of time is results. And if people are getting results, their athletes are feeling better, they're looking better. And that's one of those things that gets we we forget about. Hey, people want to look better. Yeah, well, we can't do bark bicep curls. That's not that's frowned upon across it. It's like, well, why not? You want better looking biceps? Of course, and you also want better pull-ups. So if we build up your biceps, not only is you're gonna look better, but that's gonna carry over to other cool things that people want to get better at. Um, so I really just made it kind of my mission to emphasize the less sexier components, the GPP work, the unilateral work, you know, band work, things that just are not common. And the results just speak for themselves. They they do the rest for me. It, you know, people hit PRs and they're lists and they start looking better. Um, I don't have to say really much anymore after that. Results are results, right? They don't lie. So um, and and that's kind of what has, I think, sustained us and and you know, enabled us to keep growing as a business.

Uh, I love that. So, you know, within obviously I have a strong CrossFit background, but I I took it upon myself too to constantly go out and educate myself on things outside of the CrossFit silo, right? It tends to be this echo chamber. Um, if you're talking to, you know, uh maybe a gym owner or a young coach who you know can't afford your services yet or whatever it is, where do you tell them, if they're in the CrossFit world, where where do you tell them to go educate themselves? Where would you tell them to go to become a more well-rounded coach and program designer?

That's a great question. I think CrossFit does a great job at packing a lot into a weekend. Um, I always get something, I've been to a handful of CrossFit certifications now, and it they I always get something great from them. Um the thing that I think from a programming perspective that's not covered is things like progressive overload, things like linear periodization. Now, I'm not a linear periodization guy, but there's still a value in understanding different types of periodization. Um, you know, and I think a lot of that stuff is evolving too. CrossFit has more courses now. But for me, one of the best um certifications I did was a CSTS, you know, certified strength conditioning specialist. And there is so much in that textbook. I still refer to that textbook on a constant basis because, you know, whether you want to get into exercise science or actually the practical side of things, there's just such a wealth of information in that textbook that you can really learn about everything and not just you know, gymnastics progressions or um, you know, how to teach someone how to do a med ball clean. There's just a lot of great uh stuff in that textbook. Um, the name of the textbook is Essentials of Strength Conditioning, and it's the textbook for that for that cert that you need to read. Um, so that's a great one. Super training, I think, is the Bible of all there is training. I mean, there is everything in super training that there is in that textbook, and then some. Um, and that's where actually the conjugate system really came from is is is um a lot of the principles from you know the Russian system. So there's so many things out there, you know. And if you just stick to one thing, you get one thing. And you and you know, as much as we know, there's so much more that we don't know.

Yeah.

So um I think those are some great places to start. There's a lot of great online places. I mean, the Leaf Fitness System has a million articles on their site. A million articles. I mean, then you could that's not exaggeration either. It's not. Um, so I mean, there's a lot there, and and um I I actually just wrote a blog about this because I get this question quite a bit as far as what is like the list of the top 10 resources and um super trainings on there, the essential strength conditioning is on there, practice in science is strength training, all of these are great books. Um and I will say super training is actually look at right next to me. Um Super Training is it's gotta be 600, it's close to 600 pages, yeah, 550 pages. And that's the type of book that I think the best way to read it from how I've had success with it is going through the table of contents and highlighting things that you are interested in. All right, I'm interested in learning about endurance training. Highlight that, go read it. I'm interested in learning about bodybuilding, highlight that, go read it. Um, shock methods. I mean, you could literally there's 30 pages of uh contents of um, you know, the glossary is 30 pages long, so there's a lot of different topics that you can go through and read about. You don't have to read it from cover to cover. Um, I think that's actually probably the worst thing you could do. A lot of people will, and I can speak personally. I'm sorry, I read the first 30 pages and I was like, holy shit. Um you know, it's really it's kind of everything.

So uh here's a question for you. So yeah, that that was great, that was excellent. Super training. Um CS, yeah. I think I've been in the finish industry long enough to see that um, and and this this bugs me, it bothers me, that you know, uh physique competitors will you know shit on Enduros, right? Um kettlebell, you know, specialists will will shit on CrossFit, right? So there's just this constant banging hand. Meanwhile, there's a whole world if we just shared a little bit more information. What do you have a what would you tell to the fitness industry as a whole, right? As far as like how can we push the take this whole thing and just push it forward if we just communicate a little bit better, possibly.

That's a great one. I think there's something to be said about what everyone does. Yeah. It really is. Um, and I'm a big believer in concurrent training, and that's what the conjugate system is, that's what CrossFit is. You know, you can bring up multiple aspects of fitness simultaneously, and that's something that even to me, back when I started, CrossFit was like, hey, you can't do that. You know, you need to focus. If you want to develop power, you need to focus on power development for the next eight to 12 weeks. And you know, it's simply not the case anymore. You know, that stuff has kind of been turned on its head. So I think it's like a toolbox. I mean, you is if you have more tools, you have more chance of success. You know, if you only have a hammer and a screwdriver, you can only do so much with a hammer and a screwdriver. Eventually, you're gonna need an adjustable wrench, you're gonna need a socket, um, a ratchet, you know, a level, you're gonna need more tools in your toolbox. And that's all of these types of training, whether it be endurance, it be, you know, bodybuilding, um, you know, training for the Olympic list, maximum for power development, all of those things have a place. And it really just depends on who are we giving it to. You know, are we giving it to someone that has never trained before and they just want to look and feel better? Are we gonna have them do power development? Probably not because they don't really care about power development. They don't even know what power development is, nor do they need to know. Um, but there are a lot of things that we can give them that's going to get them closer to their goals. So if my whole thing is I want to get people closer to their goals, and that's why I love working with the general population because we know that their goals are pretty. Basic. They want to look better, feel better. That's number one and two. And then what happens is all of these things start happening organically. They're like, okay, I want to be stronger. It's cool to lift weight up off the floor. All right, I want a faster hell in time because I really like that workout. And, you know, if I'm getting faster, that means my kipping pull-ups are better. And that means I'm able to sustain my 400 meter efforts better than I once was when I started. So all these things happen organically. And that's, I feel like one of the coolest parts about you know owning a gym and seeing people, you know, really kind of their their horizons really broadened because they're like, okay, I I I look better and feel better, but now I want to get better at snatching, or I want to get better at um, you know, gymnastics movement. So whatever gets people closest to their goals in the safest possible way, that's what I'm all about. And so if it takes doing hypertrophy work to get them there, then we do it. If it takes getting them, you know, to to pull sleds, then we do it. We do all those things that that give them the biggest bang for the buck.

That's great. That's a great message, Jay. Um let's get to your business here. Who who is your ideal client? Who who is your, you know, what we call here, who's your avatar?

So I I would say really anyone that is open-minded to doing some things that they might be uncomfortable doing. Because I tell everyone that signs up with box programming that you're gonna see things you've never seen before. More, you know, more for most people, they're gonna see things they've never seen before. Now, of course, there's some people out there that have been exposed to box squatting and the conjugate system, and and um, you know, maybe they've done some things that are quote unquote outside the box, but just be ready to see things that you know your athletes might not want to do. You know, they might not want to pull a sled and they might not see the value in it yet, but be open-minded, build a value in it, explain to people why we're doing it, and just kind of hang on for the ride. Because once we get past, I tell people 16 weeks, we can retest things and we can show them that what we're doing works. We can also show them that, hey, how does your shoulders feel? How does your lower back feel? And once that happens, that's when the real magic starts happening from there. Because then you have people's trust and it just takes that time. So I want people that will stick with it for four months before they say, hey, it's a no-go. Um, for me, once people get to that four-month mark, my retention is incredibly high. I almost never lose people after four months. It's before then where people say, Hey, I don't like programming sleds, I don't like programming farmers' carries and you know the things that aren't as cool. They want to do, you know, maybe more things that are cooler looking on paper. I get it. But give it some time because Rome wasn't built in a day, take some time. And then once people see their retests and they see significant progress. I don't, I don't like five, 10 pounds. Five, 10 pounds is I got a good night's sleep. Maybe I had, you know, a good week of eating. I want to see 20, 30, 40, 50 pound PRs on lifts. I want to see drastic improvement on pieces that are less than 10 minutes, you know, not just 30 seconds. I want to see a couple minutes off those. Um, and we see it. So that's what I really tell people. Be open-minded. Give me, give me 16 weeks. And if you're not happy, then you know, there's no pressure, no harm, no fall. It's you know, what I do, I believe in what I do, but what I do isn't for everyone either. I mean, that's what the greatest thing we have is having multiple options out there for people. Um, so I think that's uh that's probably what my perfect client would be.

Awesome. Um now there's there's starting to see some some competition in the market for what you do. Uh, how do you how does box programming, how do you as a coach, how do you differentiate yourself from from people coming into the market?

So I I think that we do a great job in giving people uh knowledge, giving educating them on what we're doing, and not just doing something because it fits in or it's cool looking. Um being able to educate people is really, really it's difficult, but we produce a ton of content on a consistent basis. And the whole reason for that is to educate people because if they understand why we're doing what we're doing and they can articulate that to their clients, that really sets them apart from the gym down the street that's not doing that. And most gyms, you know, they might not. I think more and more gyms are starting to, but I know for a period of time that, and even when, you know, I opened my gym, I wasn't thinking about, hey, I gotta tell my clients the why behind every workout. I mean, that's something that you're you might not think about if you're if you're you know, you're not uh, I guess if you're not thinking about it. So um educating people is is something that we we take a lot of pride in um producing content and you know, giving people options as far as workouts, multiple scaling options. We have multiple levels, we need multiple scaling options. It's not just RX and then you know, two options. We need multiple options. I program a beginner option for just about every workout, and the beginner option might be less volume, it might be less time, it might be uh less loading, might be a completely different workout. All right, if we're doing a workout like Grace, most people that are new that just graduated on ramp, they don't know how to cycle a barbell. Are they gonna get any intensity from cycling an empty barbell doing muscle clean and push press? No. Are they gonna get intensity doing you know a four-minute airmrap of uh you know five deadlifts and five burpees? Yes. Most people can do that. Yeah, and it's a it's a terrible workout, but we're teaching them to feel intensity, and um you know that requires different context, I feel. And if we're only giving people a couple options, then not only does it not give their clients the desired stimulus, but it also doesn't keep their classes efficient because you're gonna run into those people that aren't ready to do whatever movements that you're doing for that day. So we need to have options available, makes it easy, and it also makes it easy for those clients to feel comfortable and say, hey, yeah, I'm not really great at crossfeet. I just started, I don't know much, but I know that I can do a deadlift and a burby. And I can do an air squat and I can do, you know, these basic movements, these foundational movements. Um, so that's something that we really, really go above and beyond is giving them multiple options that are going to facilitate all levels.

That's huge. I I can say I am extremely guilty of not explaining the why to almost all of my clients. You know, you just assume, right? Like, well, I I know all this. They must know the basics of it. But it goes, it's undeniably a huge differentiator to tell your clients why you're doing things, get them bought in, understand that. You know, I think Chris Cooper has a great example of like why people are doing grace, right? Why are you doing 30 cleaning jerks for time? Sure. Well, it has this metabolic effect and it's it's scalable and all these things that you can teach them. So we miss all these great teaching opportunities. And I think uh, you know, if you can help your clients be better teachers, then that's a huge asset. And I I see a lot of value in that. Um where do you see box programming in two years? Do you do you have a roadmap on how to get there? What do you what do you envision?

Yeah, we you know, we I like the pace that we're going now and I like things that um that we've been working on from a development standpoint and behind the scenes. Um, you know, so I I I see us continuing down the same path that we're going on as far as having really healthy growth. Um, but you know, I I do think that you know there's there's everything evolves and programming evolves, the service evolves. So I I do think things that will, you know, things will change over time. And I I think that um, you know, we would like the ability to reach more people, and that's something that's kind of uncharted territory for us. We've never really done any advertising. I think we've done a Facebook ad a couple times. Um, so I just would, you know, I see us trying to increase more awareness about what we're doing and you know reaching more people that might see the value in what we're doing. Um, so you know, in two years, I I would I see it going the same place, but I see like key aspects of how we operate will probably evolve as far as you know adapting to you know more people in the same space. Um you know, there's there's a lot of gyms out there. There's more and more gyms every day, and there's a lot of gyms that aren't CrossFit. I actually work with quite a few non-crossfit gyms um right now, not quite a few, but you know, a few non-crossfit gyms, and there's there's definitely a lot more of that. So um, you know, it's it's it's kind of funny how things work. You know, I don't I can't see the future, obviously, but um, you know, we're just trying to stay foot on the gas pedal and stay, you know, keep doing what we're doing, and and really trying to find people that align with our core values. And that's really the biggest the most the thing that I'm you know I hold most important is finding people that really see the value of what we're doing and um you know have the same core values that we have and are are trying to help get their clients closer to their goals in the safest possible way. Awesome.

That's a great answer. And uh yeah, I've watched you grow. Um I have no doubt that you will continue to grow um and be a force in the industry as well. Jay, how do people find you um if they want to talk to you or if they want to talk about your services?

So um I'm glad you asked that because um you can go on my site and book a free call under contact. It's boxprogramming.com slash contact. Um it's right on the home page. Now, I prefer that everyone that signs up books a call first. Um, there of course there are people that sign up and that don't book calls, but I love to talk to people first and just be very transparent about what we're doing. I don't want you to buy my programming and say, hey, where are the handstand push-ups and ring dips and all of the higher skill stuff? Not to say that we don't ever do that stuff because we do, but I will say there's probably less than some gyms are used to. So I like to lay all that stuff out with new clients before they start so they know exactly what they're getting. And I feel like it definitely fosters a much better relationship. They're they're on board with what I'm doing, and and I have been able to really answer all their questions and and you know, maybe um help alleviate some of the stress of switching to new programming. Switching to new programming is is not easy, it's it's a big change. Um, so if we can help make that transition smoother, it it more than more than likely will be done over a call before you start. So book a call and you know we can we can chat and see if things make sense.

Cool. That's great. And I know you're also really active on Instagram, and I know your website has a ton of content. Uh, so you know, find them at boxprogramming.com. And uh, Jay, thank you. We'll be in touch for sure.

Thanks, Eric. Appreciate it, man.

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